#polandwardev

Session Start: Wed Mar 18 00:14:54 2015
Session Ident: #polandwardev
03[00:14] * Now talking in #polandwardev
01[00:15] <Jodo[Noir]> Oh hai
03[00:15] * underlordgc (underlordg@coldfront-B2969AF5.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:15] <Cynic|afk> hi Jodo
[00:15] <underlordgc> o hai
[00:15] <@Sheepy> Give me a second guys
01[00:15] <Jodo[Noir]> Mkay
[00:15] <@Sheepy> Just wanted to get an opinion without everyone mobbing me in #politicsandwar
03[00:15] * Sweeeeet_Ronny_D (ohdis2000@coldfront-94F1EF39.prvdri.fios.verizon.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:15] <@Sheepy> Invite reasonable people her, please
[00:15] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> whats up?
01[00:15] <Jodo[Noir]> WELP
[00:15] <Ashland> Well there goes that haha.
[00:15] <Cynic|afk> invite reasonable people
[00:16] <Cynic|afk> and SRD joins
[00:16] <Cynic|afk> fml
[00:16] <Ashland> So what did you want an opinion on?
[00:16] <Ashland> Also do you have shirtless pics?
[00:16] <Ashland> Those questions may not be stated in order of importance.
[00:16] <@Sheepy> So, basically, I'm looking at revising the color stock formula
03[00:16] * Robster[UPN] (RobsterUP@coldfront-DBBF812F.cable.virginm.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:16] <@Sheepy>  So, basically, I'm looking at revising the color stock formula
[00:17] <@Sheepy> Let me preface this by saying I removed the 10 day age limit
[00:17] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> oh i just convinced a bunch of crap alliances to leave green today
[00:17] <@Sheepy> For alliances affecting score
[00:17] <@Sheepy> http://snag.gy/uBsPU.jpg
[00:17] <@Sheepy> This is a spreadsheet with examples of a new proposed formula
[00:17] <@Sheepy> It has a 15% cap instead of 10%, and alliance count once they're past the highest scoring nation in the game
[00:17] <@Sheepy> Which is ~1520 or so atm
[00:17] <@Sheepy> I also removed beige nations from the all nation count
[00:17] <Ashland> Make it a forced distribution, but weight the number of players more than the number of alliances when determining the score.
03[00:18] * Prefontaine (IceChat78@coldfront-F91E0216.tvc-ip.com) has joined #polandwardev
[00:18] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> how many people do you need or what score do you need, to determine if you are an alliance?
[00:18] <@Sheepy> So the formula is: MIN((COLOR NATIONS*3)/((ALL NATIONS - GRAY NATIONS - BEIGE NATIONS) + (COLOR ALLIANCES^2 * 200)),.15)
[00:18] <@Sheepy> You just need a score higher than the highest scoring nation
[00:19] <@Sheepy> Higher than the score of the rank #1 nation
[00:19] <@Sheepy> I also changed the modifier of nations from *2 to *3
[00:19] <Ashland> Good.
[00:19] <Ashland> I still advocate for a forced distribution.
[00:19] <Ashland> But that's a good start.
[00:20] <Ashland> I know this is long term.
03[00:20] * Tenages (Tenages@7kingdoms.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:20] <Ashland> But have you considered... dividing the color bonus an alliance receives based on the amount that it contributes to that color bonus?
[00:20] <@Sheepy> Since the score scales, I figure it should last a while at least
01[00:20] <Jodo[Noir]> Is that going to be the final formula then? Are you looking for our thoughts/impressions? Or potential changes?
[00:20] <Ashland> Like part of the problem is that new alliances get kicked off colors.
[00:20] <underlordgc> sheepy
[00:20] <@Sheepy> Looking for any suggestions, any obvious flaws, etc.
[00:21] <@Sheepy> Here's an updated example: http://snag.gy/Zdphr.jpg
[00:21] <underlordgc> I'd say highest score nation +1
[00:21] <underlordgc> so #1 isn't effected simply cause he's number 1
[00:21] <Ashland> But if you just had color bonuses divided among alliances on that color based on how much they contributed to the bonus, that would kind of get rid of that problem.
[00:21] <Ashland> Imo.
[00:21] <Ashland> Because it would be a wash.
[00:21] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i would guess that it is much more complicated math to do that tho, even tho I would be in favor of that.
[00:21] <@Sheepy> Ashland - Are you saying each color gets 15% that's then allocated to each alliance based on their score?
[00:22] <Ashland> Not quite.
[00:22] <Ashland> So say an alliance bonus is X.
[00:22] <Ashland> Alliance A contributes towards 90% of that bonus while Alliance B contributes towards 10% of that bonus.
[00:22] <Tenages> Pretty sure he’s saying it’s allocated by member count
[00:22] <Ashland> Alliance A's nations would get .9X while alliance B's nations would get .1X
[00:22] <Ashland> Not member count.
[00:22] <Tenages> Or at least member count on the color
[00:22] <Ashland> Members on that color.
[00:22] <Ashland> Right.
[00:22] <Cynic|afk> Eh.
[00:23] <@Sheepy> So Alliance A gets 13.5% bonus, and Alliance B gets 1.5%?
[00:23] <Ashland> Yes.
[00:23] <@Sheepy> I suppose that would be interesting
01[00:23] <Jodo[Noir]> The problem with that would be that in the end, small alliances will end up folding into mega ones. Either by choice, or force.
[00:23] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> it would probably cause a bunch of large alliances to move to lesser used colors
[00:24] <Ashland> Jodo, just the opposite.
[00:24] <Cynic|afk> Idk. I mean I understand that small, non-open alliances like Guardian/GR etc hurt colors, but having that much of a difference isn't really fair either imo
[00:24] <Ashland> Larger alliances would care less what smaller alliances do.
[00:24] <@Sheepy> Sweeeeet_Ronny_D - It would definitely cause some spreading
[00:24] <Tenages> Do mega alliances need to be encouraged? What does it add to the game to encourage alliances to agglomerate as many members as possible?
[00:24] <Cynic|afk> alliances with 100 members compared to my 19 already get 5 times as much in taxes
[00:24] <Ashland> Tenages, mega alliances are the ones training new players, as I mentioned in the main chan.
[00:24] <Ashland> If everyone were like SK and Guardian the game would die.
[00:24] <Tenages> First of all I dispute that
[00:24] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but they have 5 times the members to spread it around to
[00:24] <@Sheepy> But yes, it does really encourage Mega Alliances, I suppose.
[00:24] <Tenages> But that’s not really my point
[00:25] <Ashland> Sheepy, it encourages Mega alliances just as much as the current system.
[00:25] <Ashland> People still chafe under authority.
[00:25] <Ashland> They'll stil make separate alliances.
[00:25] <Tenages> My point is it discourages anyone from every leaving your mega alliance to start their own, because they’re instantly going to lose 10+% of their income
[00:25] <Ashland> Just like they do now.
[00:25] <Ashland> The current system does that.
[00:25] <Tenages> It encourages mega alliancs way more than the current system does
[00:25] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah the current system just punishes everyone when that happens
[00:25] <Ashland> Maybe slightly more.
[00:26] <Ashland> Precisely, SRD.
[00:26] <House> Without reading over the entirety of this conversation,
[00:26] <House> <Ashland> If everyone were like SK and Guardian the game would die.
[00:26] <House> What does this mean
[00:26] <Ashland> Robster[UPN], thoughts?
[00:26] <Tenages> First of all that’s a horsehit sentiment. One of the biggest alliances in the game is Rose
[00:26] <Tenages> You know who taught Rose, guided them, encouraged them, helped them grow? SK
[00:26] <Ashland> Tenages it isn't about that.
01[00:27] <Jodo[Noir]> Not to be that guy, but lets stay on track.
[00:27] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> gettin off topic guys
[00:27] <Ashland> Tenages, does SK recruit new members who haven't proven themselves in any capacity?
[00:27] <Ashland> Does SK recruit at all?
[00:27] <Cynic|afk> Srsly take that elsewhere.
[00:27] <Cynic|afk> Ashland
[00:27] <Ashland> Fine.
[00:27] <Ashland> I dropped it!
[00:28] <Ashland> The point stands that if you implemented this system, nobody would bother micros anymore.
[00:28] <Ashland> And they wouldn't all be exiled to brown or w/e
[00:28] <Cynic|afk> Sheepy: Worst case scenario, we reevalute your new system down the road again.
[00:28] <Tenages> Ultimately it comes down to what is the point of color bonus. Is it free money? Is it to encourage conflict, does it exist just to exist?
[00:28] <Tenages> Cause frankly until you know why you want color bonus, you might as well just remove it from the game
[00:28] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> thats a good question
01[00:28] <Jodo[Noir]> I think its meant to encourage conflict. Which so far, it has only done once.
[00:28] <Cynic|afk> ^
[00:28] <Ashland> I mean, to be fair.
01[00:28] <Jodo[Noir]> And it was a absolute beating.
[00:29] <Ashland> Under the proposed system, your color would only benefit you in an AA.
[00:29] <Ashland> Which would encourage that sort of conflict, imo.
[00:29] <Ashland> And encourage people to join AAs.
[00:29] <Ashland> As though they needed more encouragement.
01[00:29] <Jodo[Noir]> Here's my thoughts.
[00:29] <Tenages> If it’s to encourage conflict, the current system doesn;t work. But neither does Ashland’s proposed solution. At all
[00:29] <Tenages> So if that’s the goal, rework the system entirely
[00:29] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> thats up to sheepy, what was your intent with the color bonus?
01[00:29] <Jodo[Noir]> I'm personally of the mindset that we do away with the bonus entirely. AA's will find a reason to fight. THey always do.
[00:29] <Tenages> If it’s free money, then just get rid of it
[00:30] <Tenages> Because adding free money piles that benefit a specific class of alliance is dumb
[00:30] <Ashland> Sheepy, I agree that the intent of the color system should be reworked.
01[00:30] <Jodo[Noir]> As it stands, the bonus system is just 'free money' whos point has failed.
[00:30] <Ashland> It should be used as a catch-up mechanic.
[00:30] <Ashland> Which is what it functions best as already.
[00:30] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah but money is already hard to make, its good to have bonuses to it
[00:31] <@Sheepy> I agree, it hasn't done a whole lot to create conflict.
[00:31] <Ashland> Any kind of sweeping bonus inherently benefits larger alliances.
[00:31] <Ashland> Period.
[00:31] <Ashland> I acknowledge that.
[00:31] <@Sheepy> But I don't think we should remove it, I think its purpose should be to spread alliances out amongst the colors
[00:31] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> as the game matures we are going to find that the scale of growth is going to get really high
[00:31] <Ashland> But that's not bad, imo.  There are lots of sacrifices that come with accepting casuals and being a large alliance.
01[00:31] <Jodo[Noir]> I'd rather see a catch up system. But thats another topic that I can suggest now that I have some ideas.
[00:31] <Ashland> Lots of x-inefficencies.
[00:31] <Ashland> Lots of work.
03[00:32] * SheepyAway (Sheepy@coldfront-49BA2C22.intertech.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:32] <Ashland> >.>
[00:32] <SheepyAway> Let's give an otherwise purposeless feature (colors) a purpose
[00:32] <SheepyAway> <@Sheepy> But I don't think we should remove it, I think its purpose should be to spread alliances out amongst the colors
[00:32] <SheepyAway> <@Sheepy> That was, really, why it came about in the first place
[00:32] <SheepyAway> <@Sheepy> So we don't have 30 alliances on blue and 1 on green and no alliances on any other color
[00:32] <SheepyAway> <SheepyAway> Let's give an otherwise purposeless feature (colors) a purpose
02[00:32] * @Sheepy (Sheepy@coldfront-49BA2C22.intertech.net) Quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by SheepyAway)))
03[00:32] * SheepyAway is now known as Sheepy
[00:32] <underlordgc> okay
[00:32] <underlordgc> then why change it?
[00:32] <Tenages> Why is spreading alliances out a feature?
[00:33] <Ashland> Implementing my system will accomplish all those things.
[00:33] <Ashland> Tbf.
[00:33] <Tenages> What does it matter if alliances are spread out amongst colors, unless color has some meaning
[00:33] <Ashland> It will also function better as an incentive to accept and train casual members.
06[00:33] * Sheepy shrugs
[00:33] <Ashland> Which translates into more players sticking with PnW.
[00:33] <underlordgc> tbh, i was busy in an annoying query so only got bits and peices of this convo
[00:33] <Sheepy> I like the diversity it creates
[00:33] <Ashland> More ad revenue, more community, and plenty of other benefits.
[00:33] <Tenages> That’s my point, diversity of what?
[00:33] <Sheepy> Gives alliances a sort of identity
[00:33] <Tenages> Okay, fair enough
[00:33] <underlordgc> meh
[00:33] <Sheepy> Diversity of... color? Identity?
[00:33] <Tenages> That makes at least a little sense
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its true, you get the Green Protection Agency, and the Viridian Entente
[00:34] <underlordgc> The problem is alliances switch colors when it benifits them
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> we arent leaving the green color any time soon
[00:34] <Ashland> underlordgc, not every alliance.
[00:34] <underlordgc> 'UPN ain't leaving purple either ;)
06[00:34] * Sheepy shrugs
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah
[00:34] <Sheepy> And I don't know that the color stock bonus should be so much that it forces people to move
[00:34] <underlordgc> Guardian, Rose, SK, and Deic have all switched at least once
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its just a fun added thing
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> this is a game
[00:34] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its suppose to be fun
[00:34] <Sheepy> But I think getting a small bonus for choosing a less popular color is good
[00:34] <Ashland> Sheepy, I agree.
[00:35] <underlordgc> I'd agrue dumping beige bonus tbh
[00:35] <Tenages> Yeah that’s fine I agree. But if you want alliances to spread out Sheepy
[00:35] <Sheepy> That way new micro alliances might pick brown or pink instead of red, green, blue, etc.
[00:35] <Tenages> You’ve already done that. If that’s the point of the bonus
[00:35] <Tenages> Mission accomplished
[00:35] <Ashland> Not quite.
[00:39] <Tenages> Alliances are going to spread out until the difference in bonuses is small enough that the benefit of switching color is miniscule
[00:39] <Tenages> Which is basically the situation now
[00:39] <Ashland> I think if you divvy up bonuses based on how the alliance contributes to it, as I mentioned, you'll accomplish that as well as encouraging alliances to accept and train players who would otherwise quit the game and translate into lost ad revenue and lost community presence.
[00:39] <Ashland> And lost donation revenue.
[00:39] <Ashland> Which translates into fewer features for the game, etc. etc.
[00:39] <underlordgc> meh
[00:39] <underlordgc> I think there needs to be a way to show an alliance that switching colors is a ood idea
[00:39] <underlordgc> brown is completly trash but, unless a few more alliance showed up, a signle 50+ man alliance moving their would boost it to 5-6% iirc
[00:39] <Ashland> I need to go to bed.  I have work tomorrow.  I've stated my piece and I think it's valid.
[00:39] <Ashland> I can address any further criticism in the morning.
02[00:39] * Ashland (Piers@coldfront-DA2FC1CE.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: )
[00:39] <Cynic|afk> Goodnight Ashland
[00:39] <Tenages> I don’t you do that. I think you discourage players from ever starting their own alliance, and encourage the same few stagnant mega-alliances that sit there forever until everyone dies of boredom and quits
[00:39] <Cynic|afk> Idk how to fix the system tbh, I haven't really put much thought into it, which is why I've kinda remained quiet
[00:39] <Sheepy> Well, what about my pretty basic proposed formula change
03[00:39] * moonpie (yaaic@coldfront-B9D4DA7B.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:39] <Cynic|afk> but what about making color stock only matter for alliances in the Top 20 or so
[00:39] <underlordgc> Fair enough
[00:39] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> I like more money
[00:39] <Cynic|afk> so that way it could be alliances of 20 members or 200 depending on the score.
[00:39] <Sheepy> http://snag.gy/Zdphr.jpg
[00:39] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i support it!
[00:39] <underlordgc> I still think it should be #1 score +1 though
[00:39] <Sheepy> That makes sense, underlordgc
[00:39] <Sheepy> Well
[00:40] <Sheepy> Unless the formula just says anything over the #1 score
03[00:40] * SeryozhaNikanor (Mibbit@coldfront-9488062D.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) has joined #polandwardev
[00:40] <Sheepy> Which means the #1 nation in a one man alliance would never affect it
[00:40] <SeryozhaNikanor> wot
[00:40] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> the #1 score plus one is that refering to the number 1 nation in the game?
[00:40] <Cynic|afk> yes
[00:40] <underlordgc> yep
[00:40] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> ah ok
[00:40] <SeryozhaNikanor> Whats this about?
[00:40] <underlordgc> yea, over #1 score or +1 w/e
[00:40] <Sheepy> SeryozhaNikanor - http://snag.gy/Zdphr.jpg
[00:40] <Sheepy> Discussing color stock changes
[00:41] <underlordgc> who's chan is this by the way?
[00:41] <underlordgc> no op >.>
01[00:41] <Jodo[Noir]> I'm ok with trying your proposed change Sheepy.
[00:41] <Sheepy> no ones
[00:41] <Tenages> If you want to encourage diversity, changing the structure of the game to give a massive advantage to mega alliances is frankly the dumbest idea ever
[00:41] <underlordgc> when do you intend to implement it sheepy?
[00:41] <Tenages> So that’s my problem with Ashland’s idea
[00:41] <Sheepy> Probably tonight
[00:41] <Sheepy> Pretty easy change
[00:41] <Tenages> And wow……..convo moved on while my client froze
01[00:41] <Jodo[Noir]> Teneages, I agree completely.
01[00:41] <Jodo[Noir]> Fuck my spelling.
[00:41] <Sheepy> Should we bump it up to 15% or leave it at 10%?
[00:41] <Sheepy> Max?
[00:42] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> 15%
[00:42] <underlordgc> 10%
[00:42] <SeryozhaNikanor> uhhhhh
[00:42] <underlordgc> 15 is to high imho
[00:42] <Cynic|afk> 10%
01[00:42] <Jodo[Noir]> I'm ok with either.
[00:42] <Tenages> But if you want the color bonus to play catch up
[00:42] <Sheepy> I don't like more "free money" but I thought 15% might encourage it to balance faster
[00:42] <underlordgc> it should be a nice to have bonus, not something massivly hurting alliances who don't make a swiotch
[00:42] <SeryozhaNikanor> 12%
[00:42] <Tenages> Easiest way to do that is whatever formula you choose, add a multiplier for nations below x score, or of x age
[00:42] <SeryozhaNikanor> ???
[00:43] <Cynic|afk> <Tenages> Easiest way to do that is whatever formula you choose, add a multiplier for nations below x score, or of x age <--
[00:43] <underlordgc> 10% is nice and flat
[00:43] <Cynic|afk> ^ thats what it hought
[00:43] <Sheepy> In terms of "catch up" I think the market will more or less take care of that
[00:43] <Sheepy> I don't think the color stock bonus needs to be a catch up feature
[00:43] <Cynic|afk> thought* lol
[00:43] <underlordgc> sheepy
[00:43] <underlordgc> what about treasures?
01[00:43] <Jodo[Noir]> To be fair, its AA's job to pump nations.
[00:43] <underlordgc> you dumping them or...?
01[00:43] <Jodo[Noir]> FOr catch up.
[00:43] <underlordgc> ^
[00:43] <Tenages> I agree Jodo
[00:43] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> and that is what wars are for
[00:43] <Sheepy> Great question, underlordgc
[00:43] <Sheepy> Let's discuss those
[00:43] <Sheepy> While you guys are here
[00:44] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> to knock everyone down
[00:44] <Tenages> Just saying if you want color bonus to help catch up, thats how you do it :P
[00:44] <Sheepy> I still need to make them give an allaince bonus
[00:44] <underlordgc> I still think they are reatrded
[00:44] <Tenages> ^
01[00:44] <Jodo[Noir]> And there it is.
[00:44] <Sheepy> Do you think something like 5% per alliance per treasure would be better than 15% per 3?
[00:44] <underlordgc> an an alliance bonus will help alliances like VE and UPN massivly
[00:44] <Tenages> except spelled correctly
[00:44] <Cynic|afk> I dont think they're accomplishing your plan
[00:44] <underlordgc> Since we have larger mid-tiers which increases chances of a treasure spawing
[00:44] <Sheepy> I understand that they're basically worthless right now
[00:44] <Tenages> I think the problem is your plan is to induce conflict, and no mechanic is going to induce conflict
06[00:45] * Sheepy shrugs
[00:45] <Tenages> Unless the reward is staggeringly large
[00:45] <Sheepy> It doesn't have to induce it, just encourage it
[00:45] <Tenages> Conflict has to be induced by the players themselves
[00:45] <underlordgc> tbf, it /does/ encourgae raiding
[00:45] <underlordgc> but not wars
[00:45] <Cynic|afk> You might get Arrgh or AC to DoW over a treature but thats about it
01[00:45] <Jodo[Noir]> The sheer amount of hate between alliances encourages it all on its own. I have a business that runs on it.
[00:45] <underlordgc> yea, raiders only really
[00:45] <underlordgc> lol jodod
[00:45] <Sheepy> Well here's what I'm wondering: If you had +5% income per treasure per alliance, that would probably just encourage more raiding, right? People would want to steal that bonus from other alliances
[00:46] <underlordgc> Mmm
[00:46] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> it might, it comes down to how much balls people really have
[00:46] <Tenages> ^
[00:46] <Cynic|afk> ^
[00:46] <Sheepy> If you had like, +15% per 3 treasures, that would maybe cause more of a war scenario? As in, Alliance B has X amount of treasures, we need to make sure they have X-1, let's war 'em
[00:46] <underlordgc> Most alliances have pretty set in stone raiding limits
[00:46] <Tenages> What it might encourage is individuals to go out on their own and raid
[00:46] <Tenages> Big guys who feel confident
[00:46] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah like that guy that picked up 4 treasures on his own, and tried to sell them
[00:46] <underlordgc> and probably won't like dealing/ will kick pout people who break it just to steal a treasure
[00:46] <Tenages> But frankly it doesn’t matter if Guardian is getting +20% from treastures
[00:46] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> a few weeks back
[00:47] <Tenages> No one is gonna DoW on them for that
[00:47] <Tenages> Same if VE has them
[00:47] <underlordgc> Tenages, guardian won't
[00:47] <Sheepy> Will it matter whether it's 50%?
[00:47] <Tenages> Not as long as treasures are temporary
[00:47] <Sheepy> Or 75%?
01[00:47] <Jodo[Noir]> The problem with ANY alliance wide bonus is this: At the end of the day 2 or 3 alliances will coordinate, dominate every treasure holder one at a time, and grow stupid fast. Thats what I would do.
[00:47] <Tenages> I mean yeah there’s a level where it would I think
[00:47] <Sheepy> Is there a point where someone will break their back to prevent Guardian (or any other alliance) from having the bonus?
[00:47] <underlordgc> eh
[00:47] <underlordgc> Not simplky for a treasure
[00:47] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> as head of defense of VE, I would never send my guys out to steal treasures from people in other major alliances
[00:47] <Sheepy> Even if the treasure gave you a 10% bonus for your alliance?
[00:48] <Sheepy> Or a 30% bonus? etc.?
[00:48] <underlordgc> It might speed up a war or something but that's only if the war is already being planed
[00:48] <Tenages> But at that level, the bonus they’ll be gettin from the treasure is gonna make it near impossible to knock them off
[00:48] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but i would defend my guys if they got attacked and someone tried to steal thier treasure
[00:48] <Tenages> Because wars can’t be done spur of the moment
[00:48] <underlordgc> ^
[00:48] <Cynic|afk> I think we need to let the politics create the war
[00:48] <Tenages> Say all those treasures spawn in VE
[00:48] <Cynic|afk> and stop trying to force it
01[00:48] <Jodo[Noir]> ^
[00:48] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> <Cynic|afk> I think we need to let the politics create the war
[00:48] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i would agree with that
[00:48] <Sheepy> So instead of encouraging alliance wide wars, which I get the impression I can't encourage, we should encourage higher tier raiding?
[00:49] <Tenages> It’s gonna take time to assemble to force that can realistically steal them, cause VE will come for you
[00:49] <Sheepy> Which would mean something like 5% per treasure would be good
[00:49] <underlordgc> Like I said earlier, Treasures will give an unfair advantage to alliances like UPN and VE becuase it's more likly to spawn in a nation in a large alliance
[00:49] <Tenages> So by the time you ge the treasue A) VE had weeks of the huge bonus, and B) what’s the point, it’s gonna respawn soon anyone
[00:49] <Tenages> *anyway
01[00:49] <Jodo[Noir]> Sheepy: Yes.
[00:49] <Sheepy> And maybe widen the range that the treasures can spawn in?
[00:49] <Sheepy> Both higher and lower?
[00:49] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> to be fair tho larger alliances should have the advantage, since they put the time in to either bring people into the game, or recruit
[00:49] <underlordgc> mmm
[00:50] <underlordgc> I'd say remove the treasures entirly tbh
[00:50] <underlordgc> repalce it with perks
[00:50] <Tenages> They already have the advantage of an increased tax base, and generally, inactives who don’t take any money back pouring money into the allaince
[00:50] <Sheepy> underlordgc - Removing treasures is not an option
[00:50] <Cynic|afk> Sweeeeet_Ronny_D: Just because your alliance is full of inactives who log in once every couple weeks if that shouldn't give you an advantage
01[00:50] <Jodo[Noir]> TOPIC
[00:50] <Tenages> ^
[00:50] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> inactives are a pain tho
[00:50] <underlordgc> lol
[00:50] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> because they get raided all the time
[00:50] <Sheepy> If your alliance spawns more treasures, will it also be subject to more raids, though?
[00:50] <Tenages> But let’s not do that again
[00:51] <underlordgc> mmm
[00:51] <underlordgc> maybe
[00:51] <underlordgc> I'd like to think no but I have been wroing before
[00:51] <Sheepy> More raids = more stolen out of your alliance bank
[00:51] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> I dont believe anyone attacked any of the VE members with the treasures
[00:51] <Sheepy> Theoretically, it may hurt big alliances as much as it helps
[00:51] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> so far
01[00:51] <Jodo[Noir]> Raiders can and will go after treasures. I see it all the time.
[00:51] <Tenages> It’s insanely easy to avoid your alliance bank being raided Sheepy
[00:51] <underlordgc> I think it will depend on how much control alliances have over their members
[00:51] <Tenages> Just dump it before the war is gonna end
[00:51] <Cynic|afk> I kept my treasure for 2 months without an attack
[00:51] <Tenages> All you need is a semi-active gov
[00:52] <Tenages> Or people with bank access
[00:52] <Cynic|afk> well since they originally went out
[00:52] <Cynic|afk> whenever that was
[00:52] <Sheepy> VE currently has 2 treasures
[00:52] <SeryozhaNikanor> Finally we can change Alliance Names
[00:52] <Cynic|afk> ^ this guy
[00:52] <Cynic|afk> lol
[00:52] <underlordgc> SeryozhaNikanor, go post in main chan
[00:52] <underlordgc> who invited this guy?
06[00:53] * Cynic|afk shrugs
[00:53] <SeryozhaNikanor> Sheepy did.
[00:53] <Tenages> I mean I’m sure there’s a way to encourage raiding, I’m not sure treasures are it
[00:53] <Tenages> But it’s possible
[00:53] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> lets be honest, there is a ton of raiding going on constantly
01[00:53] <Jodo[Noir]> Sheepy: DO we have a time frame before you implement these changes? That way we have time to consider them without the... topic issues currently?
[00:54] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its just all concentrated at the bottom 1-3 nation range
[00:54] <Tenages> If you really want to encourage raiding at the upper level, it’s not gonna come from alliances. Alliances don’t allow raiding at the top level, cause it sparks a war
[00:54] <underlordgc> ^
[00:54] <Cynic|afk> ^
[00:54] <SeryozhaNikanor> ^
[00:54] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> because once you grow past that point, its not really all that profitable to do, because if people want to stand up to you, you are going to lose a ton of money.
[00:54] <Tenages> So if you want to encourage top level raiding, you’d need to give some structural advantages to lone wolf types
[00:55] <underlordgc> I don't think that would be possible with the curent war system tenny
[00:55] <underlordgc> hmm
[00:55] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah you would have to do some major revamping to make top end raiding a reality.
[00:55] <Tenages> ^
[00:55] <underlordgc> I have an idea
[00:56] <Tenages> Raiding at the other levels is frequent
[00:56] <underlordgc> WHy not tie treasures to colorbonus?
[00:56] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> because its just not smart math to do it at our size
[00:56] <Tenages> And frankly, I dunno that alliance war really needs to be encouraged
[00:56] <underlordgc> leave it as a bottome tier thing
[00:56] <Tenages> It’s not really particularly uncommon
[00:56] <Cynic|afk> ^
[00:56] <underlordgc> but have every treasure add like .5% to colorstock
[00:57] <Tenages> I still vote for just pulling treasures
[00:57] <underlordgc> Sheepy said it wasn't an option
[00:57] <Cynic|afk> Tenages: He said thats not an option
[00:57] <Sheepy> There's like, no reason to pull them
[00:57] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i think lower tier raiding is actually a bigger issue with people wanting to start micro alliances
[00:57] <underlordgc> ^
[00:57] <Sheepy> Even if you think they're a worthless feature, we're better off leaving them in then pulling them out
[00:57] <underlordgc> tbf, they would get raided with our without a treasure
[00:57] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its almost impossible for small alliances to defend themselves and stop people from raiding the crap out of them
[00:57] <Tenages> I’m not sure why that is, but okay, I don’t care
[00:57] <Sheepy> Small nations don't get treasures
[00:57] <Tenages> They’re irrelevant as is
[00:57] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> they are a fun little wrinkle
[00:58] <Cynic|afk> ^
[00:58] <underlordgc> Meh
[00:58] <Sheepy> Some people may find them irrelevant, which is fine
[00:58] <Sheepy> Others may enjoy it
[00:58] <Sheepy> I don't think it's hurting any
[00:58] <underlordgc> If not remove it I'd say set trasures to spawn in nations under 500 score only
[00:58] <Tenages> I think you’re better off focusing on color bonus. And they one idea you had that might’ve added a new political dynamic that you sort of shelved
[00:58] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i would agree with that sheepy
[00:58] <Tenages> Your rainbow council or whatever it was called
[00:58] <underlordgc> ^
[00:58] <underlordgc> most people were actually willing to give it a shot
[00:59] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> was that like the senate in CN?
01[00:59] <Jodo[Noir]> That should be a player meta game deal. Not a mechanic.
[00:59] <underlordgc> No one had high hopes but at least we had a near unanimous "meh, why not try it for a bit." :P
[00:59] <Sheepy> I like the idea, but I don't understand what it would do
[00:59] <underlordgc> you introduced it :/
[00:59] <Sheepy> It would exist for what purpose
[00:59] <Sheepy> And I asked about what it ought to be able to do
[00:59] <Sheepy> I suggested things like color-wide embargoes and price fixing
[01:00] <underlordgc> yeap
[01:00] <underlordgc> I rember that
[01:00] <Sheepy> But if we're only going to have a small number of nations on this "council" they can't do anything too powerful
[01:00] <underlordgc> it would give more wieght to color stock tbh
[01:00] <Sheepy> But they need to be powerful enough to be relevant
[01:01] <underlordgc> alliances can't just move without forfieting their senate seat for a bit
[01:01] <underlordgc> and if it's worthless
06[01:01] * underlordgc hshurgs
01[01:01] <Jodo[Noir]> Again: THe color council should be a PLAYER MADE thing. Encourage inter-alliance politics. THere is no reason for an in game mechanic for it.
[01:02] <Tenages> Also for those who want an advantage for bigger alliances because they deserve it or whatever, there it is :p
06[01:02] * Sheepy shrugs
[01:02] <Sheepy> What about a special forum for it, then?
[01:02] <Tenages> But it’s not a game breaking advantage like a10% income increase
01[01:02] <Jodo[Noir]> THat would be fantastic.
[01:02] <Sheepy> Except, what would the rules be?
[01:02] <Cynic|afk> Color Team Forums - So CN 06
[01:02] <Cynic|afk> lol
[01:02] <Cynic|afk> jk
01[01:02] <Jodo[Noir]> WHatever the players/leaders make them.
[01:02] <Tenages> I have no problem with it being a game mechanic
[01:02] <Sheepy> Not a forum for each color, just one for delegates from each color
[01:03] <Cynic|afk> ah
[01:03] <Tenages> It’s going to be an entirely ignored, solely RP, quickly ignored waste of time otherwise
[01:03] <Tenages> I speak from experience with games that tried doing it that way
[01:03] <Tenages> Don’t like your colors policies, move to a new color and take it over with your friends
01[01:04] <Jodo[Noir]> Sure. And then you fight it out.
[01:04] <Prefontaine> So, I can put my attention here now. What're we discussing?
01[01:04] <Jodo[Noir]> ffs
[01:04] <Cynic|afk> wow
[01:04] <underlordgc> Tenages, in CN they could at least sanction
[01:05] <Tenages> I’m aware, I’ve played CN :p
[01:05] <underlordgc> so I'd assume they could place embargos against raiders
[01:05] <Sheepy> I liked the price-fixing idea
[01:05] <Tenages> Right I was referring to Jodo’s no mechanic, forum only council
[01:05] <Cynic|afk> I just think that would be too close to CN
[01:05] <underlordgc> although there is a mechanic to "hide" the trade in that game whereas in this you can't
[01:05] <Sheepy> But I also liked the player made trade unions that everyone thought was a terrible idea
[01:05] <underlordgc> oh
[01:05] <underlordgc> my bad
[01:06] <Cynic|afk> what was the price fixing idea>
02[01:06] * Robster[UPN] (RobsterUP@coldfront-DBBF812F.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
[01:06] <underlordgc> hold on
[01:06] <Cynic|afk> just a general description
[01:06] <Tenages> Player made trade unions could also be a good idea, if implemented properly.
[01:06] <underlordgc> let me see if I can't dig it up
[01:07] <Cynic|afk> like the council can set market rates for certain colors?
[01:07] <Sheepy> Players could create trade unions where they set floors on market prices
01[01:07] <Jodo[Noir]> Sheepy: The problem here, and in any potential change is that every 'influential' or whatever person looks at this game differently. We all have agendas. Which is kind of why this entire chat has 0928408 ideas and zero progress.
06[01:07] * Sheepy shrugs
[01:07] <underlordgc> lol jodo is right
01[01:07] <Jodo[Noir]> Just sayin.
[01:07] <Sheepy> I'm taking input from you all and trying to cut the shit out of it
01[01:07] <Jodo[Noir]> No, I get that. And thank you.
[01:07] <Sheepy> I understand, but that's why I'm neutral and listening to all points of view
[01:07] <Sheepy> You're welcome
[01:07] <Tenages> I think he’s just getting ideas and then he’;s gonna do whatever he wants :p
01[01:07] <Jodo[Noir]> Just wanted to make everyone aware.
[01:07] <Tenages> Which is how it should be
[01:07] <Sheepy> That's how it usually goes
[01:08] <Cynic|afk> #NukeSheepy2015
[01:08] <Tenages> Player trade unions could be very interesting
[01:08] <Tenages> The question is how do you structure it
[01:08] <underlordgc> tbf though, if i wanted to be all douchbaggy about it I would be in favor of the alliance treasure bonus as my alliance would greatly benifit from it
[01:08] <Sheepy> But Cynic|afk - The idea is you'd make this union, set floor prices, like you can't sell oil for less than $X, and then anyone in your union wouldn't be able to sell for less than $X
[01:08] <underlordgc> yea
[01:08] <Cynic|afk> ah
[01:08] <Sheepy> To try and cut out the price cutting
01[01:08] <Jodo[Noir]> Can I make a suggestion?
[01:08] <Cynic|afk> i like
[01:08] <Sheepy> Problem is, joining a price union would have to be voluntary
[01:08] <Sheepy> And no one would really benefit from it
[01:08] <Sheepy> Unless everyone did it
[01:08] <Sheepy> But yes, Jodo[Noir]
[01:08] <House> The color changes that were just made, are they gonna stick?
[01:08] <underlordgc> the problem is people wouldn't want to be in a trade union which was brought up back then IIRC
[01:08] <Cynic|afk> oh
[01:09] <Sheepy> Yes, House
[01:09] <underlordgc> just made?
[01:09] <Sheepy> My idea was multi-alliance unions that worked together to make money
[01:09] <Cynic|afk> he was changing code
01[01:09] <Jodo[Noir]> I'd like to stick to one topic. Color bonus for today. Then, LATER we can go back to the other stuff. Maybe do this weekly/monthly.
01[01:09] <Jodo[Noir]> That way we get somewhere.
[01:09] <Sheepy> Oh sure, that's a good idea
01[01:09] <Jodo[Noir]> thank you jebus
[01:09] <Sheepy> I figured the bulk of the discussion was over and that we were just rambling now
[01:09] <Cynic|afk> lol
[01:09] <Sheepy> Because I already changed the color stock code :P
[01:09] <Tenages> Well I mean it wouldn’t have to be voluntary. You could say the group that controls each market, either by winning the most votes or winning wars, or whatever gets to set policy for that market sector
[01:10] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> oh hey look at that
[01:10] <Cynic|afk> We talked. Sheepy coded.
[01:10] <Tenages> Same way you’re talking about color councils setting prices and what not
[01:10] <underlordgc> i don't realize it was uploaded already
[01:10] <Sheepy> Tenages - Right, you could give color councils that power
[01:10] <Tenages> Basically the same idea, jsut a different inplementation of it
[01:10] <Sheepy> But people could still just change color
[01:10] <Tenages> I mean eventually they’re gonna run out of colors :P
[01:10] <Sheepy> That in itself might encourage the settling of less populated colors
06[01:11] * Sheepy shrugs
[01:11] <Tenages> ^
[01:11] <Cynic|afk> yea but what if the "color senators" or whatever they're called all work together
[01:11] <Sheepy> But I'm sure you'd always have that one group that set no limits and undercut everyone
[01:11] <Tenages> Diversity of color. Different color different policies
[01:11] <Sheepy> And unless you gave colors the power to embargo other colors...
[01:11] <Sheepy> Which could work, I guess
[01:11] <Tenages> Maybe SK and DEIC decide prosperity on orange is best managed one way
[01:12] <Sheepy> The issue might become, however, color groups undercutting each other instead of individual nations undercutting each other
[01:12] <Sheepy> Red goes to $199/barrel of oil, so Blue goes to $198/ barrel of oil
[01:12] <Sheepy> etc.
06[01:12] * Sheepy shrugs
[01:12] <underlordgc> that would probably happen
[01:13] <Cynic|afk> Is there a way to make it like changing colors or anything else where they can only change prices every X turns
[01:13] <Sheepy> Yeah, I suppose that would be possible
[01:13] <Tenages> Add some strategy to it
[01:13] <Tenages> Anyway I dunno
[01:14] <Cynic|afk> could encourage color politics as well. SK/DEIC might want to work with VE (green) and Guardian (Yellow) to set all theirs the same
[01:14] <Tenages> I just think if you want to create some maneuvering and shit, that’s gonna be the way to do it. In-game ability to affect the market on a macro scale
[01:14] <underlordgc> meh
[01:14] <Tenages> I don’t think it’ll do that much
01[01:14] <Jodo[Noir]> To be fair, I suppose there does need to be SOME mechanic. THough I would highly suggest it be minimal.
[01:15] <underlordgc> So long as alliance trades and private trades arn't effected I doubt to much could come of it
[01:15] <Tenages> But it’ll do more than any piddling around with treasures, or color bonus
[01:15] <underlordgc> yea
[01:15] <Cynic|afk> meh. yeah
[01:15] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> does it really tho? because there will really only be a handful of people making those decisions
[01:15] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> its not like Joe member has a real say in the matter
[01:16] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but he could find himself with a treasure
[01:16] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> and now he has some choices to make
[01:16] <Sheepy> I like how you think, Sweeeeet_Ronny_D
[01:16] <Tenages> Not really. Joe member who finds himself with a treasure is already in an alliance, no?
[01:16] <Tenages> Joe member is just getting free money, while still being protected
[01:16] <Cynic|afk> ^
[01:17] <Tenages> What choices does he have to make? I’m actually confused
[01:17] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> if he is a little guy, he may be forced to buy a ton of military to protect himself since he is now a target
[01:17] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> or does he just stay the course and hope noone hits him
[01:17] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> or if he does get hit, does he just roll over and take it
[01:17] <underlordgc> stay the course
[01:17] <Tenages> Except we’ve largely established that he isn’t
[01:18] <underlordgc> his alliance should aid bimb him
[01:18] <Tenages> Treasures have been around for a while, very little raiding his been done for them
[01:18] <underlordgc> Mmm
[01:18] <underlordgc> I know of at least twice
[01:18] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> sure if you are in a large established alliance
[01:19] <underlordgc> but that's just two
[01:19] <Tenages> You yourself said not a single VE nation has been raided for a treasure
[01:19] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> we had a guy come to us with 4 treasures he stole, trying to sell them to use
[01:19] <underlordgc> also, if a nation deltes treasures should immediatly respawn instead of disapear forever
[01:19] <Tenages> So treasures are a further inducement to pick on newbs and micros
[01:19] <Tenages> Not seing how thats a good thing
[01:19] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> yeah because we will tear up anyone that attacks VE, but if say someone is in a 10 man micro
[01:19] <underlordgc> Sweeeeet_Ronny_D
[01:19] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> he is going to have to do some work
[01:19] <Sheepy> Treasures don't spawn in small nations
[01:19] <underlordgc> what was his anme?
[01:19] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> oh really?
[01:19] <Sheepy> So you don't have to worry about little helpless nations getting them
[01:19] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i forget, he was a dumbass, that deleted
[01:20] <underlordgc> lol
[01:20] <Tenages> Define small
[01:20] <underlordgc> sdo that's who it was
[01:20] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> mate dundee or something like that
[01:20] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> i think
03[01:20] * Malone (Malone@coldfront-F36C0732.static.bnc4free.com) has joined #polandwardev
[01:20] <Malone> fine fine
[01:21] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but yes, how small is small?
01[01:21] <Jodo[Noir]> Its Ashlands fault.
[01:21] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> just out of curiosity?
[01:21] <underlordgc> lol malone
[01:22] <underlordgc> we talked about this a while ago
[01:22] <underlordgc> CS that is
[01:22] <underlordgc> Sheepy
[01:23] <Sheepy> wa
[01:23] <underlordgc> there might be a problem with colorbous
[01:23] <underlordgc> main onw chan
[01:26] <Malone> why did I join this? seems like yall are done already
03[01:26] * Malone (Malone@coldfront-F36C0732.static.bnc4free.com) has left #polandwardev (Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is)
[01:28] <Sheepy> Well, boys, I'm heading to bed
[01:28] <Sheepy> I'll talk to y'all later
[01:28] <Sheepy> Thanks for your input tonight
[01:28] <Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> thanks
[01:28] <Cynic|afk> cya
[01:28] <underlordgc> cya
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03[01:29] * House (House@2568A175:B69ED178:CE601512:IP) has left #polandwardev
03[01:32] * Cynic|afk (Cynic@coldfront-5DB655B8.loves.woofwoofhosting.com) has left #polandwardev