Fused wants to blacklist servers

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08:02 - You are now in #zastaff
08:02 - Topic: Welcome to Zandronum's staff discussion channel. Hostile behavior will not be tolerated, from neither staff nor user. || This is not #staff. Go to #staff if you really need help and support, this is just the open moderator channel. Moderator chat and banter lives here.
08:02 - Topic was set by infurnus in 18.07.2013 at 10:53:25
08:05 <decay````>hello my fellow zandronum players
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08:38 <decay````>where is fused
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08:38 <decay````>i want to talk about this ridiculous topic https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8067&sid=9afa41b65e48aeebb372a9b98dbf8ef3
08:38 <LinkBot>[ I need your opinion on these possible improvements to licensing - Zandronum ]
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10:55 <decay````>hey where did that thread go
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11:05 - You are now in #zastaff
11:05 - Topic: Welcome to Zandronum's staff discussion channel. Hostile behavior will not be tolerated, from neither staff nor user. || This is not #staff. Go to #staff if you really need help and support, this is just the open moderator channel. Moderator chat and banter lives here.
11:05 - Topic was set by infurnus in 18.07.2013 at 10:53:25
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12:51 ~ Connection closed
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12:52 - You are now in #zastaff
12:52 - Topic: Welcome to Zandronum's staff discussion channel. Hostile behavior will not be tolerated, from neither staff nor user. || This is not #staff. Go to #staff if you really need help and support, this is just the open moderator channel. Moderator chat and banter lives here.
12:52 - Topic was set by infurnus in 18.07.2013 at 10:53:25
12:53 <decay````>hi FusedQyou
12:53 <decay````>https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8067&sid=cceb5b6156a9546ade0a1ce72fffe4ab&p=103872#p103872
12:53 <LinkBot>[ I need your opinion on these possible improvements to licensing - Zandronum ]
12:53 <decay````>i haven't seen something this stupid since metal was in charge
12:53 <decay````>why are you bringing this up?
12:54 <FusedQyou>I'm sorry decay````, what's stupid about it?
12:55 <decay````>why are you suddenly trying to control something that zandro admins have literally no control over
12:55 <decay````>how are you planning to enforce this
12:55 <decay````>blacklist every mod that uses uncredited resources?
12:56 <decay````>do you realize how unfeasible this position is?
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12:57 <decay````>the text file has literally 0 legal ground
12:57 <Dynamo_>right so I'm going to prepare an answer for the thread
12:58 <FusedQyou>I'm confused. You act like I want to shit on everyone while I just want to make modding a better experience
12:58 <FusedQyou>You realise that right?
12:58 <decay````>i don't think you conveyed that very well
12:58 <FusedQyou>Also I'm pretty sure it's doable
12:58 <decay````>how does more restrictive policies on a "please don't use my resources" bit create a better modding experience
12:58 <FusedQyou>well yeah Idont exactly spend a lot of time making threads like those
12:59 <FusedQyou>No no
12:59 <FusedQyou>There's more to it. I'm especially talking about creating modifications in general
12:59 <FusedQyou>that seems quite doable, right?
12:59 <decay````>what do you mean
12:59 <decay````>internet wide UGC?
12:59 <Dynamo_>no offense but you understand nothing about modding if you posted such a thread and especially if you posted such an answer
12:59 <Dynamo_>but one thing at a time
13:01 <FusedQyou>I mean creating a mod of an existing mod that ruins said mod
13:01 <FusedQyou>I wouln't want to see that happen
13:02 <decay````>how are you defining "ruins said mod"?
13:02 <decay````>more people playing the knock-off?
13:03 <FusedQyou>wrecking balance, adding stupid stuff, I don't know, you name it
13:05 <decay````>who determines this though
13:05 <decay````>these are all subjective things
13:06 <FusedQyou>Whoever created the original I gues
13:07 <decay````>hey where did the thread go again
13:08 <Dynamo_>uh
13:08 <Dynamo_>did you just take the thread away
13:08 <Dynamo_>how am I supposed to answer to the thread now?
13:08 <FusedQyou>Dunno
13:08 <FusedQyou>ask the thread
13:08 <Dynamo_>is that supposed to be funny?
13:08 <FusedQyou>Is it?
13:08 <Dynamo_>you tell me
13:09 <FusedQyou>I'm not exactly trying to be metal here, I just want to see improvements on stuff like this. But I guess I have a different mindset regarding stuff like this
13:10 <FusedQyou>so yeah I moved the thread because it seems to be going nowhere again
13:10 <Dynamo_>yes, a very mobile thread that's twice now been moved definitely seems to be going nowhere
13:10 <Dynamo_>if you ask me I think it's going everywhere
13:10 <Dynamo_>back and forth between sections
13:10 <Dynamo_>you wanted the bicycle, now ride
13:10 <decay````>look i'm not trying to say "people should be allowed to take resources without permission", i always adhere to the textfiles and ask permission where i can
13:10 <Dynamo_>don't throw the stone and then hide the hand in your jacket
13:11 <Dynamo_>"whoops ask the stone!"
13:11 <decay````>but what you want to do/propose is way too overreaching
13:12 <Dynamo_>then again if you are going to cancel the proposal I for one certainly would not contest that
13:12 <Dynamo_>given how insane it is
13:12 <Dynamo_>but even more insane that you would praise someone who locked their .wad in an attempt to prevent people from browsing it
13:13 <Dynamo_>clearly you are out of your intellectual depth, but even if you weren't, clearly you have not the slightest clue of what you're talking about
13:13 <Dynamo_>if you did you knew in that particular case that the guy who locked the .wad had content that he was not even authorised to use IN the .wad
13:13 <Dynamo_>but yeah, sure, great example of your cause there
13:13 <decay````>not only that
13:14 <Dynamo_>I was going to answer to the thread itself, but I'm going to do it here
13:14 <Dynamo_>I prefer real time chat anyway
13:14 <decay````>he claimed everything in the wad was original content and made specifically for that mod
13:14 <Dynamo_>"Yeah, but you're talking about the resource part here and like I've said, it doesn't seem to go anywhere with that anyway."
13:14 <Dynamo_>no it is /YOU/ who talked about resources in your very first post
13:14 <Dynamo_>regarding the addon part, I actually addressed that very well
13:14 <Dynamo_>I remember this whole situation sprung up because of complex doom
13:14 <Dynamo_>I stand by what I said
13:14 <Dynamo_>if you have a problem with complex, get rid of complex
13:15 <Dynamo_>the whole idea of enacting a set of laws and rules for only one mod is completely insane
13:15 <decay````>that's up to server hosts
13:15 <decay````>not zan -forum- mods
13:15 <decay````>not even admin
13:15 <decay````>just a mod
13:15 <Dynamo_>especially considering it's pretty much the only case where this thing occurs for the most part, most of the other major mods (brutal doom, D4D, etc) have all mods that are basically approved by the original authors
13:15 <Dynamo_>and are neatly organized unlike the 30+ files mess that is complex
13:15 <Dynamo_>so
13:15 <Dynamo_>you have a problem with complex
13:15 <Dynamo_>get rid of complex
13:15 <Dynamo_>instead of throwing every other mod ever in the dirt for no reason
13:16 <Dynamo_>also yes as decay said this is something that does not even involve zandronum but would at best involve something like tspg
13:16 <Dynamo_>suggesting such a change should be applied not only on zandronum globally, but also on gzdoom (??) and zdaemon (????????????????????) is beyond absurd
13:16 <Dynamo_>who do you think you are, john romero?
13:16 <Dynamo_>moving on
13:17 <Dynamo_>"If you made a mod, which I don't think you did (correct me if I'm wrong)"
13:17 <Dynamo_>I shall correct you
13:17 <Dynamo_>I've been modding since 2006 and I never gave 2 shits if people took the stuff I made
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13:17 <Dynamo_>the only thing I ask is they don't claim they made it if they didn't
13:17 <Dynamo_>because that would be outright lying
13:17 <Dynamo_>as was the case with the guy who locked his own wad
13:17 <FusedQyou>Woah what a wall of text
13:18 <FusedQyou>why are you still typing, don't you have something better to do?
13:18 <FusedQyou>Like testing zandronum 3.0?
13:18 <Dynamo_>beyond that the moment I upload my "hard worked on mod" I know it's in the public domain
13:18 <Dynamo_>well yes, I had something better to do, posting on the thread
13:18 <Dynamo_>you took the thread away, so I'm going to post here
13:18 <Dynamo_>if you don't like it feel free to leave.
13:18 <FusedQyou>So it does mean something to you then? Why are you crying about me not testing zan then?
13:18 <FusedQyou>Seems like a bigger issue
13:18 <Ru5tK1ng>it's bad news if this channel is active...
13:19 <decay````><FusedQyou>why are you still typing, don't you have something better to do?
13:19 <decay````><FusedQyou>Like testing zandronum 3.0?
13:19 <Dynamo_>last I checked you represent zandronum staff
13:19 <decay````>are you a mod or a 5 year old
13:19 <Dynamo_>as a staff member is it not in your best interests to further the development of the port?
13:19 <Dynamo_>I am an user, I have no responsibilities, of that I know nothing
13:19 <FusedQyou>I'm a mod, but it seems I have to be an 5 year old in order to argue with anything it seems
13:19 <FusedQyou>come on, stop talking already
13:19 <Dynamo_>who, me?
13:19 <FusedQyou>typing, rather
13:19 <FusedQyou>sure
13:19 <decay````>lol what?
13:20 <Dynamo_>are you really going to silence me merely because I am answering to things you have said in a forum thread?
13:20 <decay````>you don't want us to voice our disagreement?
13:20 <FusedQyou>we have a forum for that
13:20 <Dynamo_>yes we have a forum with threads that you /conveniently take away/
13:20 <Dynamo_>so that we cannot answer to them
13:20 <FusedQyou>well I guess we'll have no answer then
13:20 <Dynamo_>I was going to answer the thread
13:20 <FusedQyou>Guess you can't have everything
13:21 <decay````><FusedQyou>we have a forum for that
13:21 <decay````>hey i'm banned as you well know
13:21 <decay````>but i'm still a part of the community, like it or not
13:21 <FusedQyou>I guess that says enough then
13:21 * decay```` snorts
13:21 <decay````>i've done more for the community than you ever have
13:21 <decay````>sit down kid
13:22 <decay````>who gave you moderatorship
13:22 <Dynamo_>your unwarranted hostility and smug attitude really do not give an impression that you want to improve the mod community
13:22 <Dynamo_>by your attitude here the only thing anyone who is reading can gather is that you want to further your own agenda
13:22 <FusedQyou>Hey, you started it
13:22 <Dynamo_>with no regard to what others have to say on the matter since your intention is to silence them
13:22 <FusedQyou>perhaps you realise how shitty it is
13:22 <Dynamo_>you posted the thread so you started it, friend
13:22 <FusedQyou>Which wasn't hostile in the slightest, but you seems to turn it into one
13:23 <FusedQyou>You dont even seem to realise it.
13:23 <Dynamo_>how was I ever at any point hostile?
13:23 <Dynamo_>you immediately silenced me before I could even finish answering to the thread's points
13:23 <Dynamo_>and /I/ am the one who is hostile?
13:23 <Dynamo_>are you out of your mind?
13:24 <FusedQyou>You call that a normal reply?
13:24 <FusedQyou>I wonder why I even bother discussing about this then
13:24 <Dynamo_>what normal reply? what are you talking about?
13:24 <Ru5tK1ng>* decay```` snorts
13:25 <Ru5tK1ng>fat fuck
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13:25 <Dynamo_>please quote any sentences where I insulted you directly
13:25 <FusedQyou>sorry,threads gone
13:25 <Dynamo_>or anything I said that is apparently considered to you abnormal
13:25 <Ru5tK1ng>what is exactly is going on?
13:25 <Ru5tK1ng>did someone's thread get deleted?
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13:25 <Ru5tK1ng>was it about freeing decay?
13:26 <FusedQyou>even if it wasn't, it wouln't do any good anyway
13:26 <Dynamo_>Ru5tK1ng: this man here created a thread, I replied, then he hid the thread twice because he didn't want to hear the answers on his thread
13:26 <Dynamo_>even though the thread he posted was comprised largely of questions
13:26 <Dynamo_>to which I answered
13:26 <Dynamo_>but apparently answering is only ok if you answer in a specific way (i.e. say yes yes)
13:26 <Dynamo_>FusedQyou: even if what wasn't?
13:27 <Ru5tK1ng>what was it about?
13:27 <Dynamo_>about him wanting mods to follow copyright from now on or something
13:27 <decay````>good adminship transparency
13:28 <decay````>hide threads where people disagree
13:28 <Dynamo_>giving mods a "license" so only people who follow said license can use stuff in the mod
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>copy right on stolen stuff?
13:28 <Dynamo_>yeah
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>good bye all mods
13:28 <Dynamo_>great idea right
13:28 <Dynamo_>but it gets better
13:28 <Dynamo_>"Should this be done on all ports (QZdoom, GZdoom, Zdaemon)?"
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>not only do people take stuff from iwads
13:28 <decay````><dew>Decay`: from JUDAS23_.TXT
13:28 <decay````><dew>Authors MAY NOT use this level as a base to build additional levels,
13:28 <decay````><dew>concatenations, or otherwise.
13:28 <decay````><dew>You MAY distribute this PWAD, provided you include this file, with
13:28 <decay````><dew>no modifications.
13:28 <decay````><dew>literally duel40 is illegal
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>they take sounds and graphics from other games
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>like LoD taking sounds of league
13:28 <decay````><dew>bad news for btsx D:
13:28 <decay````><dew>those enemy sprite recolors dayum
13:28 <Ru5tK1ng>or was it nordic saga? whatever
13:28 <Dynamo_>can you picture daemon applying this policy solely because we asked nicely or something rofl
13:29 <Dynamo_>zdaemon even
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>this is next level zdaemon
13:29 <Dynamo_>yeah basically any mod would be going to the trash bin
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>how would you even enforce that?
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>bans?
13:29 <Dynamo_>it's clear that the one who came up with this idea does not have a very good comprehension on modding, its history or anything else
13:29 <decay````>blacklisting servers on the master, apparently
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>lol
13:29 <Dynamo_>which is fine, I for one was going to explain this in the thread
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>Did I fall into a worm hole
13:29 <Dynamo_>but the thread was hidden
13:29 <FusedQyou>Ru5tK1ng I basically asked a set of questions, which included if it should be taken serious if somebody doesn't want their mod to be modified
13:29 <Ru5tK1ng>that is trying to out do zdaemon
13:30 <FusedQyou>and the same for when resources are used despite it being forbidden
13:30 <Dynamo_>and because I chose to answer here instead I am apparently "crying"
13:30 <Dynamo_>wrath of crying
13:30 <Ru5tK1ng>instead of blacklisting because of avoiding masterban list, we blacklist cuz my mods
13:30 <FusedQyou>and I even clearly said that the latter is probably dumb but Dynamo_ doesn't really care
13:30 <Dynamo_>FusedQyou: liar, you talked specifically about resources
13:30 <FusedQyou>That's bullshit, please show me where
13:30 <Dynamo_>do you realize I still have the thread open in my web browser
13:30 <Dynamo_>ok
13:30 <FusedQyou>I know
13:30 <FusedQyou>I even replied by saying it's about the addons
13:30 <Dynamo_>Currently you are able to supply a licence with your mod, informing the users what he is allowed and not alowed to do with your creation. The problems with this is that it's not taken very serious, and in most cases your resources will still be used, or your mod might still be modified.
13:31 <Dynamo_>you specifically talk about resources
13:31 <Ru5tK1ng>the only area of the community that I see fights break out over is Complex Doom with all the addons
13:31 <Dynamo_>also, I already answered in regards to the addon
13:31 <Dynamo_>both on the thread
13:31 <Dynamo_>and on IRC
13:31 <FusedQyou>I literally talk about modifications to the mod
13:31 <Dynamo_>you completely ignored my answer
13:31 <Ru5tK1ng>there are plenty of other mods that people take over because the author either moved on or fucked off
13:31 <decay````>we aren't allowed to disagree on irc
13:31 <Ru5tK1ng>it's really not that big of a deal outside of CD or even ZH?
13:31 <FusedQyou>Bro Dynamo_ you're literally blind
13:31 <decay````>there is a forum for that apparently, even though the thread is gone
13:32 <Dynamo_>yeah CD and maybe ZH is the only case where this happens
13:32 <Dynamo_>hell, it doesn't happen even with brutal doom
13:32 <FusedQyou>it does actually
13:32 <Dynamo_>unless you count music addons as part of the problem
13:32 <FusedQyou>there's plenty of them
13:32 <Dynamo_>yes
13:32 <Dynamo_>do you see 40 brutal doom files being hosted on zandronum servers?
13:32 <Ru5tK1ng>if someone REALLY doesn't want their stuff modded
13:32 <Ru5tK1ng>why they could just do what superst did
13:32 <Ru5tK1ng>lol
13:32 <Dynamo_>I check the server list fairly regularly and 99% of the time the only other thing that is hosted alongside BD is hell on earth starter pack
13:32 <Dynamo_>do not invent things which are untrue
13:33 <decay````>yea and that worked out very well didn't it
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>I don't know
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>I wasn't around
13:33 <Dynamo_>I was around
13:33 <Dynamo_>it was a debacle
13:33 <Dynamo_>the guy locked his .wad
13:33 <FusedQyou>Dynamo_ whosaid zandronum
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>I just know he made it so it wasn't readable?
13:33 <Dynamo_>and in the .wad (which was still opened) they found resources he wasn't allowed to use
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>well yeah
13:33 <Dynamo_>FusedQyou: uhm
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>I mean if it was all original content I'd say someone could lock it
13:33 <Dynamo_>you posted in the zandronum forums
13:33 <decay````>FusedQyou you literally only have any semblance of power on the zan forums, you really can't be speaking for anything else
13:33 <Dynamo_>in the administrative section no less
13:33 <Ru5tK1ng>but everyone rips off everyone so whatever...zzz
13:33 <Dynamo_>so...
13:33 <Dynamo_>you?
13:34 <FusedQyou>decay```` because brutal doom is outside zandronum
13:34 <Dynamo_>......... no it isn't?
13:34 <FusedQyou>and I wasnt talking about that anyway
13:34 <Dynamo_>it's hosted regularly
13:34 <Dynamo_>what are you even saying
13:34 <FusedQyou>I'm talking about the addons...
13:34 <Dynamo_>no you were talking about it
13:34 <decay````>basically, here's the summary
13:34 <decay````>you're pissed someone is hosting more popular mods than you
13:35 <decay````>and you want to use your minimal power to try and stop it
13:35 <Dynamo_>you are talking about ALL mods on the thread
13:35 <Dynamo_>this includes brutal doom
13:35 <decay````>it's literally jealousy driven lunacy
13:35 <Dynamo_>as I said many times
13:35 <Dynamo_>yet I keep being ignored by you
13:35 <Dynamo_>if you have a problem with complex
13:35 <Dynamo_>get rid of complex?
13:35 <Dynamo_>instead of throwing every other mod in the dirt?
13:35 <Dynamo_>and if you can't get rid of complex well that's your problem
13:35 <Dynamo_>certainly not ours nor is it the problem of all the other modders
13:36 <decay````>zan forum admins have no jurisdiction over master server and hosting
13:36 <decay````>this was established when metal fucked off
13:37 <decay````>currently zan admins already have a history of enforcing no stolen resources in mods from the community authors
13:37 <decay````>this has been proven already; credits must be given
13:37 <decay````>what exactly needs to change about the policy that is already in place
13:39 <Ru5tK1ng>why not put the thread out there so the actual mod authors can give their 2 cents?
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13:57 <Mazter>FusedQtwo I believe that anything related to modding licensing and enforcement of these licenses has nothing to do with with Zandronum staff
13:57 <Mazter>The best Zandronum staff can do is make a post that kindly asks people to follow the supplied license
13:58 <Mazter>If you supplied a license and you are sure it wasn't followed and you can prove it, sue the person?
13:58 <Mazter>Or that is not worth it? Maybe we don't need to really bring up that question then
13:59 <Mazter>imo that's how things are
13:59 <Mazter>Sorry if I misunderstood the point of discussion
14:00 <Ru5tK1ng>yeah it's hard to understand a point w/o that topic..
14:01 <Mazter>Mods they come and go and some people want to mod mods too; one thing is when you just personally don't like it, another thing is when you lose money because of it
14:02 <Dynamo_>Mazter: you can't sue anyone over doom modding
14:02 <Dynamo_>doom modding has no legal basis
14:02 <Dynamo_>it's not owned with copyright by anybody
14:02 <Dynamo_>that's not how it works
14:03 <Dynamo_>if it worked that way first and foremost you'd need to have permission from id software because you are editing their product
14:03 <Dynamo_>you'd also have to contact lawyers and a copyright firm, pay a fee etc etc
14:03 <Dynamo_>this is just not how modding for doom (and pretty much any other game) works
14:03 <Dynamo_>what you said initially applies however, i.e. respect other authors' wishes
14:03 <decay````>permission from zenimax
14:03 <Dynamo_>yeah I'm sure they'd be glad to do so
14:03 <Dynamo_>like when they took down doomRL :)
14:03 <decay````>zenimax could also at anytime decide to shut things down
14:04 <Dynamo_>seriously this whole idea is messed up
14:04 <AlexMax>Dynamo_: that's not quite accurate
14:04 <Mazter>Dynamo_ I'm not exactly an expert in legal stuff, but I believe that if you create a WAD and provide some sprites that you personally made and license them for no reuse, that could work (but then again I might be wrong)
14:04 <AlexMax>people have copyright over their ORIGINAL work
14:04 <AlexMax>at least in the united states and those who have signed to the trade agreement concering copyright
14:04 <Mazter>DoomRL was simply renamed to DRL and that's it, they didn't like the name «Doom»
14:05 <Dynamo_>AlexMax: yeah I admit I've never done actual academic research on the subject but it's safe to say you can't just copyright a doom mod (that most likely uses assets from other places, anyway, as 99% of doom mods) and expect the law to follow suit or something
14:05 <Mazter>Dynamo_ you can't copyright the whole mod but you might be able to copyright assets
14:05 <AlexMax>Dynamo_: on that you are correct, you have copyright over your original work, but most mods use outside resources anyway
14:05 <decay````>if a work isn't explicitly copyrighted, just saying "authors may not use these resources without permission" doesn't necessarily constitute copyright, does it
14:05 <Mazter>Your own original work
14:06 <Dynamo_>imagine someone trying to copyright brutal doom or complex doom :p
14:06 <AlexMax>so it's in effect a cluster-f
14:07 <Dynamo_>I suppose we are lucky to have received the source code when we did
14:07 <AlexMax>and I agree, it's not the master's job to enforce copyright
14:07 <Mazter>Either way I believe that Zandronum staff has nothing to do with enforcing copyrights
14:07 <Dynamo_>I don't think zenimax would ever release it now
14:08 <Mazter>As such there's simply no point in discussing the copyright claims regarding the mods
14:08 <Mazter>People who «mod mods» either make something good or osmething bad
14:08 <Mazter>If it's bad, people won't play it; if it's good, why be envy over someone improving your mod? Work together with them?