8:24:48 PM Friend: Do you really believe that Krugman article?
8:26:10 PM Keshik: oh dude
8:26:49 PM Keshik: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/health-care-protester-exp_n_253579.html
8:27:15 PM Keshik: Just because your organization isn't astroturfing these things doesn't mean they're genuinely grassroots
8:27:57 PM Keshik: Honestly if you yourself personally and on your own free time organized a group of your friends to go to a town hall meeting
8:28:32 PM Keshik: People would be able to (justly) say that it's an operation carried out by GOP operative(s)
8:31:36 PM Keshik: Anyway I'm pretty disgusted by the way principal figures on the right are demonizing what is really a milquetoast proposal
Changed status to Away: I'm not here right now (8:31:45 PM)
Changed status to Idle (8:31:45 PM)
Changed status to Online (8:32:30 PM)
Changed status to Available (8:32:30 PM)
8:32:42 PM Friend: You just posted the Huffington Post
8:33:08 PM Keshik: You post Glenn Beck
8:33:12 PM Keshik: all
8:33:13 PM Keshik: the
8:33:14 PM Keshik: time
8:33:16 PM Friend: On my wall.
8:33:20 PM Friend: To piss off leftists.
8:33:37 PM Keshik: Posting Glenn Beck stuff makes you look crazy it doesn't piss off leftists
8:33:47 PM Friend: I don't care.  And it does.
8:33:57 PM Keshik: Ok duder anyway
8:34:01 PM Keshik: Nader rules
8:34:05 PM Friend: Look.
8:34:17 PM Friend: There is no conspiracy that created the movement that is showing fruit.
8:34:26 PM Friend: If anything, it's being attacked by the GOP and much of the structure out here.
8:34:27 PM Keshik: Who said anything about a conspiracy
8:34:30 PM Keshik: and what fruit?
8:34:37 PM Keshik: Threatenin congressmen?
8:34:40 PM Friend: Yes,.
8:34:43 PM Friend: And its not threats
8:34:52 PM Friend: It is questions, complaints, input.
8:34:56 PM Keshik: They beat people up here in Tampa
8:35:01 PM Keshik: I saw it on the local news
8:35:10 PM Friend: Hahaha - those were the SEIU / Labor guys!
8:35:17 PM Friend: I worked WITH THOSE GUYS in 04
8:35:25 PM Friend: I worked with Karthy's mom in 04!
8:35:32 PM Friend: They used the union goons back then
8:36:03 PM Keshik: dude
8:36:11 PM Keshik: the people were screaming Tyranny
8:36:14 PM Friend: And it IS!
8:36:31 PM Friend: Taking my medical liberty away?  What else can it be called?
8:36:59 PM Keshik: So the union guys who favor healthcare were beating people up while yelling "Tyranny!" as a kind of false flag thing?
8:37:19 PM Friend: It is tyranny.
8:37:47 PM Keshik: Haha dude taking your medical liberty away?  One of those guys who claimed SIEU guys beat the fuck out of him has been collecting donations because he does not have insurance to pay for his supposed injuries
8:37:50 PM Friend: I do not care who does what.  Tyranny is tyranny.
8:38:53 PM Keshik: I don't think it's tyranny to say I don't like the fact that in this country there are people whose healthcare plans are cancelled by insurers when they are diagnosed with serious illnesses
8:39:04 PM Friend: I do not like it either.
8:39:34 PM Keshik: I don't think it's tyranny to say I don't care for the fact that people with insurance through their employers and who have to stop working due to a serious illness then lose their insurance because they can no longer work
8:40:56 PM Keshik: I don't think it's tyranny to say it pisses me off that there are people in this country who die of treatable illnesses because they cannot get any insurance because their illness has already been diagnosed
8:41:17 PM Friend: It is tyranny to impose on single system governed by one party upon me.  That is tyranny.
8:41:27 PM Keshik: I don't think it's tyranny to offer a publicly supported healthcare fund that people can opt to purchase into if they so desire
8:41:47 PM Keshik: that cannot turn people down
8:41:52 PM Keshik: for prior conditions
8:42:47 PM Keshik: The milquetoast proposals in congress are not single-payer and I know this because if they were I'd be calling Kathy Castor's office every single day several times a day using different voices telling her to support it
8:43:03 PM Keshik: Some of the proposals don't even include a public option
8:44:14 PM Friend: I want the government out of healthcare entirely.  It has no perview.  It is illegal.
8:44:17 PM Friend: It is also wrong.
8:44:29 PM Keshik: It's not bloody tyranny, they're just trying to get some kind of compromise through congress so people without health insurance have more options when they're sick beyond a) die. or b) go bankrupt trying to pay for it.
8:44:49 PM Keshik: how is that wrong
8:45:19 PM Keshik: please tell me how it is wrong to offer people a publicly supported option
8:45:36 PM Friend: 1.
8:46:00 PM Friend: It is completely unconstitutional.  This is only the legal problem.
8:46:01 PM Friend: 2.
8:46:41 PM Friend: I believe and know through the study of history that all government interaction in our personal lives leads to serfdom.
8:46:56 PM Keshik: your unconstitutionality argument is not supported by anybody in congress (except maybe some people from texas) or by any constitutional law scholars
8:46:59 PM Friend: 3.  The economics of the entire setup are unsustainable for private companies and the government.
8:47:06 PM Friend: Read it yourself.
8:47:15 PM Friend: Fuck, Obama is a "Constitutional Scholor"
8:47:17 PM Keshik: the serfdom argument
8:47:23 PM Friend: Read the Road to Serfdom.
8:47:28 PM Keshik: I believe and know through the study of history that all CORPORATE interaction in our personal lives leads to serfdom.
8:48:01 PM Friend: Corporate, or government, once it is the only unit offering service - what is the difference?!
8:48:11 PM Keshik: ok so
8:48:19 PM Keshik: if corporations are the only units offering service
8:48:25 PM Friend: Many corporations.
8:48:27 PM Friend: Thousands.
8:48:28 PM Keshik: then you would not be opposed to government also offering?
8:48:29 PM Friend: Competing.
8:48:34 PM Friend: Ok
8:48:34 PM Friend: 1.
8:48:41 PM Keshik: why can government not be one of the thousands?
8:48:49 PM Friend: The government does not operate and never has on the principles of profiut - they ALWAYS run at a deficit
8:48:50 PM Friend: 2.
8:48:56 PM Keshik: that is not true
8:49:01 PM Keshik: I want to be very clear that is patently false
8:49:02 PM Friend: argh
8:49:08 PM Friend: Read The Law and Economics in One Lesson
8:49:13 PM Keshik: the USPS has operated at a profit several times in its history
8:49:16 PM Friend: Read some fucking books, educate yourself
8:49:39 PM Keshik: the united states postal service has operated at a profit numerous times
8:49:47 PM Friend: It is the exception.
8:49:57 PM Friend: As is with all government / sole monopolies
8:50:25 PM Friend: No competition = degredation = tyranny.
8:50:26 PM Keshik: alright well let's move on to why a non-profit-seeking government run healthcare provider is a bad thing for the marketplace
8:50:34 PM Friend: Because the government has NO RIGHT
8:50:35 PM Friend: NONE
8:50:39 PM Keshik: and let's be clear it would not be a sole provider
8:50:39 PM Friend: No government does.
8:50:43 PM Friend: And itwould turn into
8:50:44 PM Friend: one
8:50:47 PM Friend: It would undercut the market
8:50:51 PM Keshik: how?
8:50:51 PM Friend: It would not operate in the market
8:50:55 PM Friend: god dammit
8:50:59 PM Friend: read some fucking books miclk
8:51:02 PM Keshik: sure it would, people could choose it or any other provider
8:51:16 PM Friend: my god please just read economics in one lesson
8:51:20 PM Friend: its free online
8:51:33 PM Friend: i would have to explain what it took the book to explain
8:51:36 PM Friend: and it is better at it than i am
8:51:44 PM Keshik: dude I read many many many books, please don't resort to telling me I don't know what I am talking about and accept, as I do with you, that I disagree with you honestly and not through ignorance
8:51:49 PM Friend: You do not.
8:52:21 PM Friend: You will sustain your ignorance of market economics through your own willpower and action.  You refuse to read something as simple as Economics in One Lesson.
8:52:33 PM Friend: It is short.
8:52:34 PM Friend: Simple.
8:52:36 PM Friend: To the point.
8:52:38 PM Keshik: To be honest I skimmed the first few chapters of it
8:52:44 PM Friend: That is not reading the book!
8:52:45 PM Friend: Study it.
8:52:49 PM Friend: Learn what it is saying.
8:52:52 PM Friend: Understand it.
8:52:53 PM Keshik: dude
8:53:10 PM Keshik: I have read books on economics.  Not necessarily that one, but I do understand economics
8:53:18 PM Keshik: I am in fact qualified to TEACH economics
8:53:19 PM Friend: There is no such thing as "economics"
8:53:22 PM Friend: Hahahahaha!
8:53:33 PM Friend: Rarely are even professors qualified.
8:53:46 PM Friend: You must be merely a teacher and not a learner.
8:53:54 PM Keshik: What does that mean
8:54:02 PM Friend: You are unwilling to educate yourself.
8:54:11 PM Keshik: No, dude, as I have said
8:54:27 PM Keshik: My breadth and depth of knowledge is wider and deeper than you give me credit for
8:54:46 PM Friend: And yet this simple book is so impossible to study?
8:54:48 PM Keshik: and I am rather insulted by your assumption that I am ignorant rather than in disagreement with you
8:54:54 PM Keshik: Not impossible, not worth my time
8:55:04 PM Friend: What the hell IS worth your time?
8:55:14 PM Keshik: well since you bring it up
8:55:48 PM Keshik: the last book on economics that I read was written by our good friend mister Krugman
8:55:58 PM Friend: And he is an imbicile.
8:56:05 PM Keshik: I don't think that's fair
8:56:13 PM Friend: Read the book I suggested to you.
8:56:23 PM Friend: Study it.
8:56:31 PM Keshik: If I recommended a book to you would you read it?
8:56:38 PM Friend: Yes.
8:56:43 PM Keshik: Liberalism by John Rawls
8:56:50 PM Friend: Rawls, eh?
8:56:53 PM Keshik: Yes
8:57:06 PM Friend: You are a statist, aren't you?
8:57:34 PM Keshik: I prefer to consider myself separate from ideology
8:57:45 PM Friend: Your personal ideology.
8:58:39 PM Keshik: Yes, and I am saying I prefer not to possess one, because every time I've chosen to define myself by one, there have been excellent arguments from an opposing ideology which I liked and terrible arguments from my selected ideology which I disliked
8:58:52 PM Friend: Do you know what a statist is?
8:58:59 PM Keshik: Yes, dude
8:59:11 PM Keshik: if I were to define my personal ideological belief by any one word
8:59:26 PM Keshik: I guess I'd call myself a Bonapartist
8:59:40 PM Friend: That is a statist, by definition.
8:59:46 PM Keshik: I'd like to see the world ruled by Emperor Napoleon I
8:59:54 PM Keshik: so really I'm an imperialist
9:00:08 PM Friend: No difference
9:00:14 PM Friend: You seek to subjugate.
9:00:30 PM Keshik: subjugate? me? no
9:00:34 PM Friend: Yes.
9:00:37 PM Friend: Your policies do.
9:00:41 PM Friend: Inherent.
9:00:41 PM Keshik: My policies?
9:00:43 PM Friend: Yes.
9:00:53 PM Friend: The ones you believe in, even in their most broad description.
9:00:53 PM Keshik: They are the policies of le empereur
9:00:55 PM Friend: Yes.
9:01:00 PM Friend: And he was a tyrant.
9:01:11 PM Keshik: That is an entirely British thing to say
9:01:29 PM Friend: It is an entirely logical thing to say.
9:01:41 PM Friend: Tyrant - one who imposes tyranny.
9:01:48 PM Keshik: he ended the reign of terror
9:01:56 PM Friend: With his own!
9:02:01 PM Friend: And imposed his own brand!
9:02:05 PM Keshik: who did he terrorize?
9:03:12 PM Friend: Tyranny is terror.
9:03:16 PM Friend: It is one in the same.
9:03:35 PM Keshik: I disagree.
9:03:36 PM Keshik: Anyway
9:03:48 PM Friend: Tyranny can only be instituted by the threat of force.
9:03:55 PM Keshik: The thing I like about Bonaparte is that he disliked the left-right division of politics
9:04:07 PM Friend: Left = Tyranny, Right = Liberty
9:04:13 PM Keshik: hahaha
9:04:26 PM Keshik: let me remind you that fascism was a singularly right wing movement
9:04:31 PM Keshik: anyway
9:04:35 PM Friend: That is not the way in whcih I use right
9:04:38 PM Friend: I just described it to you
9:04:40 PM Keshik: "Tyranny can only be instituted by the threat of force."
9:04:49 PM Keshik: where is Obama threatening anyone
9:05:11 PM Friend: If I do not pay my taxes to fund his goals and policies, I love everything and am imprisioned.
9:05:36 PM Keshik: that was true under the previous president and would have been true under McCain
9:05:39 PM Friend: Yes
9:05:45 PM Friend: This is absolutely true
9:05:49 PM Keshik: so really it's only tyranny if you disagree>
9:05:52 PM Friend: No
9:06:18 PM Friend: Bush was a tyrant, Clinton, etc
9:06:21 PM Keshik: well then I am confused by your goals
9:06:26 PM Keshik: what do you seek?
9:06:26 PM Friend: Liberty.
9:06:32 PM Keshik: precisely
9:06:43 PM Keshik: you do not want universal healthcare because it is tyranny
9:06:47 PM Friend: Yes.
9:06:49 PM Keshik: what would not be tyranny?
9:07:04 PM Keshik: do you want the dissolution of the department of defense?
9:07:16 PM Friend: When I can live my life without a government or another party imposing upon me beyond what I wish it to impose me
9:07:19 PM Keshik: they're spending quite a lot of money on some weapons systems and wars I disagree with
9:07:27 PM Friend: To a very very large extent, yes
9:07:27 PM Keshik: is it tyranny?
9:07:33 PM Friend: DOD, DOE, etc
9:07:46 PM Friend: The articles of confederation were far better, but not perfect
9:07:48 PM Keshik: what has the DOE ever done to you?
9:08:16 PM Friend: My beliefs are not true because of how they effect me
9:08:21 PM Keshik: other than waste a lot of money building Yucca mountain
9:09:08 PM Keshik: ok let me put it another way, in what way do you disagree with federal regulation of power plants and of energy providers
9:09:13 PM Friend: The states, the local government, the market are far better regulators
9:09:20 PM Friend: Everything
9:09:24 PM Keshik: I have to disagree there vehemently
9:09:25 PM Friend: The fed has no place in it
9:09:29 PM Friend: Read my book.
9:10:08 PM Keshik: the states and local government are not powerful enough to regulate multinational energy corporations because they will be too susceptible to the power, wealth, and influence of the energy corporations
9:10:10 PM Friend: A government institution forcing its will upon the energy I purchase (which is a monopoly, might I add) is not right.
9:10:14 PM Friend: And they shouldnt be!
9:10:18 PM Friend: The market should.
9:10:18 PM Keshik: now I could argue that the federal government is also too weak
9:10:28 PM Friend: Such an argument is not acceptable tome.
9:10:42 PM Keshik: dude
9:11:29 PM Keshik: they're called natural monopolies because energy is considered a public good and it makes more sense to lay out power lines one time and to just regulate the prices the company charges to keep them in line with global energy costs
9:11:37 PM Keshik: and with what the market would charge
9:11:51 PM Friend: I disagree with their imposition beyond what the demand of the market would enforce
9:11:56 PM Friend: market, not politics
9:12:12 PM Keshik: I would argue that in the coming decades a decentralization of energy production into single homes makes a lot of sense
9:12:24 PM Keshik: so maybe the DOE would be no longer necessary
9:12:35 PM Friend: My argument is not what is cheaper or more effective
9:12:40 PM Friend: My argument is that the government has no right.
9:12:44 PM Keshik: but the guys regulate nuclear waste disposal and do a lot of other things that are rather important
9:13:33 PM Friend: What is the government if but a massive corporation with a captive clientele which cannot escape
9:14:19 PM Keshik: it's not really a helpful or informative argument to oppose everything the government does by calling it tyranny when you don't like it.  it's been around for two centuries, it's not going away tomorrow night.  at least point at specific laws you'd like to have repealed or something
9:14:25 PM Keshik: thats what nader does
9:14:52 PM Keshik: he's bitch about the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947
9:14:57 PM Keshik: He'll
9:15:02 PM Keshik: and say it needs to be repealed
9:15:06 PM Friend: Nader is an anarcho marxist
9:15:10 PM Keshik: nader rules
9:15:19 PM Friend: Statist with different methods
9:15:55 PM Keshik: let me ask you this
9:16:23 PM Keshik: could you name one single law you'd like to see repealed tomorrow and then describe one single law you'd like to see passed tomorrow
9:16:30 PM Keshik: just that
9:18:01 PM Friend: A law which would return us to a country where states have soverignty over the federal government.  The best example would be a return to the Articles of Confederation with some small modifications.
9:18:18 PM Keshik: hold up
9:18:45 PM Keshik: you talk all the time about how shit is unconstitutional and yet you want to ABOLISH the constitution and go back to the articles?
9:18:53 PM Friend: Perferably
9:22:01 PM Friend: What I want, and what IS, are different.
9:22:21 PM Keshik: dude if you're ideologically opposed to the constitutional framework of the united states I don't see how you can oppose anything minor like healthcare, since you really should be working to destroy the american system of government
9:22:27 PM Keshik: as a whole
9:22:46 PM Friend: I work to reduce tyranny.  I do not believe we are past the point of legislative change.
9:22:58 PM Friend: We are, in my opinion, approaching.
9:23:14 PM Keshik: let me ask you this
9:23:30 PM Keshik: if some kind of publicly supported healthcare plan does pass
9:23:34 PM Keshik: is that tyranny
9:23:37 PM Friend: Yes.
9:23:48 PM Friend: We currently live under a large variety of tyranny.
9:23:50 PM Keshik: is it tyranny sufficient that you will choose violent action?
9:24:05 PM Friend: Violent action is only acceptable when two things are present:
9:24:23 PM Friend: And this is a general rule, not applicable to myself.
9:24:23 PM Friend: 1.
9:24:34 PM Friend: no legislative option
9:24:34 PM Friend: 2.
9:24:55 PM Friend: large and wide public confidence loss
9:25:07 PM Keshik: that is all it takes?
9:25:10 PM Friend: Yes.
9:25:50 PM Keshik: I think nonviolent noncompliance is still applicable under those circumstances
9:25:50 PM Friend: Once the government is no longer responsive to providing the protection of the liberties of citizens - and that includes liberty from government interaction in your life - then there is no other option.
9:25:55 PM Keshik: it worked for ghandi
9:25:58 PM Keshik: it worked for MLK
9:26:05 PM Friend: Ghandi was a far different situation.
9:26:20 PM Keshik: violence only worked for us because of french involvement
9:26:46 PM Keshik: it only worked for the french under the third reich because we invaded normandy
9:26:57 PM Friend: Violence against our government in our system has two paths.
9:26:58 PM Friend: 1.
9:27:05 PM Keshik: it only worked for south korea because we supported them
9:27:11 PM Friend: Dissolved the governmental structure, providing far greater liberty.
9:27:12 PM Friend: 2.
9:27:16 PM Keshik: it only worked for north vietnam because china supported them
9:27:27 PM Keshik: violence has a very poor track record
9:27:29 PM Friend: Dissolved the governmental structure, providing far greater tyranny.
9:27:55 PM Keshik: ok let's get back to topic
9:28:02 PM Keshik: you believe in states rights
9:28:11 PM Friend: In a general sense, yes
9:28:39 PM Keshik: what do you think of the Kucinich and Sanders healthcare proposals that would enable individual states to set up their own single-payer healthcare systems if they choose to do so
9:28:50 PM Friend: I do not believe that government has any role in healthcare.
9:28:59 PM Friend: I am against their proposal.
9:29:03 PM Keshik: Not even the states?
9:29:06 PM Friend: No.
9:29:08 PM Friend: No government.
9:29:20 PM Friend: Here is what I believe dude:
9:29:37 PM Friend: Government has only one role: to protect the liberty of the individual.
9:30:10 PM Keshik: what if the liberty of the individual is threatened by powerful forces like multinational corporations
9:30:23 PM Keshik: does government have a right to regulate them to protect the individual
9:30:45 PM Friend: The government must protect the individual from monopolies of force.
9:31:08 PM Keshik: is that a yes
9:31:39 PM Friend: Having large powerful corporations are not at all distasteful to me.
9:31:41 PM Friend: Tyranny is.l
9:31:54 PM Friend: When a group seeks tyranny over the people, the government must prevent it.
9:32:30 PM Friend: State Soverignty with a central government for defense issues is best at protecting both the government, states, and corporations from imposing tyranny.
9:33:02 PM Keshik: what if the corporation's board of directors' opinion of tyranny conflicts with mine and they tell the government that to regulate them is tyranny against them?  who is right?
9:33:32 PM Friend: When the individual is imposed upon, and cannot escape the effects of the company, the government must stop that imposition.
9:33:45 PM Friend: If that body it the government itself, the people must abolish it.
9:34:06 PM Friend: It is actually right there in the Declaration of Independance.
9:34:14 PM Friend: It is a great document.
9:34:37 PM Friend: In my humble opinion.
9:34:39 PM Friend: Of course.
9:34:54 PM Keshik: would have had a joke in it if they'd let Ben Franklin write it
9:35:11 PM Keshik: mighta been funny
9:35:24 PM Friend: Indeed.  He was influential.
9:35:29 PM Keshik: and funny
9:35:57 PM Keshik: so anyway
9:36:02 PM Keshik: your answer to my question
9:36:17 PM Keshik: if the liberty of the individual is threatened by powerful forces like multinational corporations, does government have a right to regulate them to protect the individual?
9:36:23 PM Keshik: your answer is yes?
9:36:26 PM Friend: Regulate?  No.
9:36:38 PM Friend: Prevent tyranny?  Yes.
9:37:00 PM Keshik: please elucidate on the difference
9:37:45 PM Friend: Perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning of Regulate.
9:38:50 PM Keshik: to control by means of rules
9:38:56 PM Keshik:  To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law
9:39:16 PM Keshik: for example:
9:39:27 PM Keshik: "corporations shall pay employees a living wage"
9:39:29 PM Friend: The power to break up monopolies, yes.  No further.
9:39:31 PM Friend: No.
9:39:33 PM Friend: Absolutely not.
9:40:43 PM Keshik: "corporations shall not dump toxic waste on land which at any time may pass out of the ownership of the corporation and without ensuring that the waste will not pollute common goods such as the public water supply"
9:41:01 PM Friend: No.
9:41:12 PM Keshik: what is objectionable about that
9:41:17 PM Friend: If it is an issue, citizens in the area affected will prevent it.
9:41:22 PM Friend: The government has no role there.
9:41:23 PM Keshik: prevent it how
9:41:35 PM Keshik: is the government not of the people
9:41:36 PM Keshik: for the people
9:41:38 PM Keshik: by
9:41:38 PM Friend: It is not
9:41:39 PM Keshik: the
9:41:40 PM Keshik: people
9:41:43 PM Friend: I has not been for a long time.l
9:41:55 PM Keshik: if it were, would it have a right?
9:41:59 PM Friend: No.
9:42:02 PM Friend: A government has no right.
9:42:14 PM Keshik: even if it is a government
9:42:15 PM Keshik: of
9:42:16 PM Keshik: the
9:42:17 PM Keshik: people
9:42:18 PM Friend: If the people in an area freely establish a group to prevent it, so be it.
9:42:22 PM Friend: But it will not be imposed by law.
9:42:28 PM Keshik: can they call their group the government
9:42:37 PM Keshik: and call their prevention a law
9:42:41 PM Friend: It is not a law
9:43:03 PM Friend: And when it begins to impose its will upon individuals freedoms, liberties, the government must stop them.
9:43:34 PM Keshik: what government
9:43:51 PM Friend: the government i outlined
9:44:06 PM Friend: frankly, the local police force
9:44:20 PM Friend: whatever the citizens pick for themselves
9:44:26 PM Keshik: but is not government itself an organization of people seeking to protect common interests?
9:44:38 PM Friend: that is not the issue
9:44:49 PM Friend: the issue is which imposes its will through law
9:44:56 PM Keshik: ok let's backtrack to the picking for themselves
9:45:03 PM Friend: law should only be in place to protect individual freedom
9:45:06 PM Keshik: let's imagine that we re-establish the Articles
9:45:58 PM Keshik: and the people of Massachusetts decide they would like to establish their communal government
9:46:31 PM Keshik: and they wish for their communal government to provide them all with healthcare which they will pay for with an annual deduction from their incomes
9:46:40 PM Friend: The government has no role
9:46:54 PM Keshik: not even if the citizens want it to?
9:46:57 PM Friend: No.
9:47:01 PM Friend: They do it themselves
9:47:04 PM Friend: In the market
9:47:32 PM Keshik: they will do it themselves
9:47:47 PM Keshik: They wish to establish healthcare for everyone in their state
9:47:59 PM Keshik: and they have decided to organize it centrally
9:47:59 PM Friend: Through a private enterprise, not government
9:48:05 PM Friend: That is not the role of government
9:48:16 PM Keshik: what if they want it to be a role of THEIR government
9:48:25 PM Friend: Then they are attempting to impose tyranny.
9:48:26 PM Keshik: is it your place as an outsider to tell them no?
9:48:38 PM Keshik: how is it tyranny if they all want it?
9:48:59 PM Friend: Because it is not the role of government.
9:49:06 PM Keshik: they wish it to be
9:49:10 PM Friend: It is still not.
9:49:13 PM Keshik: it is the wish of the people
9:49:13 PM Friend: It's called Law.
9:49:14 PM Keshik: that it is
9:49:19 PM Keshik: whose law
9:49:20 PM Friend: I do not believe in democracy.
9:49:29 PM Friend: Mob rule rules all.
9:49:29 PM Keshik: what do you believe in?
9:49:39 PM Keshik: don't say liberty
9:49:41 PM Friend: Limited government that merely protects liberty
9:49:44 PM Friend: fine
9:49:46 PM Friend: freedom
9:49:50 PM Friend: individual freedom
9:50:30 PM Keshik: honestly dude I no longer want you to read John Rawls
9:50:51 PM Keshik: I think it'd make more sense to ask you to read Hobbes and Locke
9:51:24 PM Friend: I read anything I can read.
9:51:28 PM Keshik: I'm talking about rule by mutual consent
9:51:38 PM Keshik: and you're saying it is not the role of government
9:51:56 PM Keshik: but if everyone mutually agrees they want it to be the government's role
9:52:13 PM Keshik: then there is not a universal law that prevents it
9:52:21 PM Friend: Liberty is the only role of government.
9:52:25 PM Keshik: laws are defined by the desires of the people
9:52:31 PM Friend: I do not believe so
9:52:38 PM Friend: And that is our fundamental difference.
9:52:48 PM Keshik: No I do not think it is
9:52:52 PM Keshik: I think it's rather deeper
9:52:54 PM Keshik: let me ask you
9:53:14 PM Keshik: What if I say to you and let me be clear when I say that I sincerely believe this
9:53:55 PM Keshik: I believe that it is essential to the protection of the liberty of the people of the united states that the people receive medical aid when they are injured or sick
9:54:32 PM Keshik: I believe sincerely and not out of ignorance or because I am a statist
9:54:50 PM Keshik: that the liberty of the people rests upon their having access to medical care
9:54:51 PM Friend: (Believing in the preeminance of the state is to be a statist)
9:55:17 PM Keshik: that is a nonsensical statement  in response to my statement
9:55:27 PM Keshik: you have said that liberty is the government's only role
9:55:28 PM Friend: Any role of government beyond liberty is merely a road to serfdom.
9:55:39 PM Keshik: and the protection of liberty is the government's only role
9:55:56 PM Keshik: and I am telling you I believe that the liberty of the people rests upon their having access to medical care
9:56:15 PM Keshik: so do not accuse me of statism and convince me instead
9:56:27 PM Keshik: that access to medical care is not essential to liberty
9:57:03 PM Friend: Your economic beliefs - which suppose that healthcare cannot be had any other way other than through government tyranny of the market - override the role of government as merely liberty.
9:57:17 PM Keshik: I disagree
9:57:38 PM Keshik: I did not say that healthcare cannot be had outside of government support
9:57:47 PM Friend: The government has no role
9:57:48 PM Keshik: I will say that it is not available now
9:57:56 PM Keshik: to many people
9:58:03 PM Friend: It is not available now because the government is far too involved in regulating the market
9:58:18 PM Friend: And if you want to know why I believe that
9:58:26 PM Friend: Economics in One Lesson
9:58:48 PM Keshik: so if the government withdraws completely from the healthcare system then healthcare will become fantastically cheap and everyone in the united states will be able to afford it?
9:58:55 PM Friend: Want to know why even if it were not possible for medical care to be had by everyone I would not allow it to be the role of government?
9:59:03 PM Keshik: no i don't
9:59:08 PM Friend: the book Road to Serfdom deliniates this
9:59:18 PM Friend: healthcare will be far more available
9:59:28 PM Friend: and like anything - if someone wants something they should earn it
9:59:32 PM Friend: and if they cant
9:59:39 PM Friend: that is the role of neighbors and charity
9:59:43 PM Keshik: What if someone cannot work because they are too ill or injured or infirm
9:59:53 PM Friend: when the government maintains a role like that, it leads to serfdom.
10:00:00 PM Friend: every single time
10:00:09 PM Keshik: ok if it is the role of neighbors and of charitable organizations to care for those unable to care for themselves
10:00:46 PM Keshik: then they are not doing so for profit-seeking reasons
10:01:01 PM Friend: It is not about profit to me
10:01:06 PM Keshik: no no no
10:01:06 PM Friend: It is about liberty
10:01:14 PM Friend: I work for a non-profit
10:01:16 PM Keshik: i'm not talking about liberty
10:01:19 PM Keshik: i'm saying
10:01:33 PM Keshik: if you wish for the infirm to be cared for by charity
10:01:44 PM Keshik: then you wish them to be cared for by the community
10:01:56 PM Friend: charity is voluntary
10:02:04 PM Friend: once it is compulsive, it is no longer charity
10:02:25 PM Friend: government can never have a role in charity
10:02:34 PM Keshik: so you feel that the people have no moral or ethical responsibility to provide for the infirm?
10:02:43 PM Friend: that is up to them, as individuals
10:03:24 PM Keshik: i give up
10:03:34 PM Keshik: you have already said you're against democracy
10:03:49 PM Friend: Democracy is inherently opressive
10:03:51 PM Keshik: how can we have a reasonable debate when you can always retreat to a nonexistent state of affairs
10:04:17 PM Friend: We can only argue about political systems that are currently present in our country?
10:04:59 PM Friend: Well, at a national level at least
10:05:00 PM Keshik: if you'll remember, we're debating the ACTUAL institution of a REAL WORLD publicly provided healthcare system in the country we live in AT THE PRESENT TIME
10:05:18 PM Friend: And I say that that idea, along with almost all others in place, are completely wrong to me.
10:06:00 PM Keshik: and I say that if you disagree that much that your role should not be opposing healthcare initiatives, you should be in a shack in the woods writing a manifesto and planning the revolution
10:06:26 PM Friend: The role I choose is to work against the current state of affairs using the current system.
10:06:35 PM Friend: As I stated, the time is not here for rebellion.
10:06:54 PM Friend: And I have not yet given up.
10:07:48 PM Keshik: if you disagree fundamentally and philosophically with our national system of government (republicanism) then you should be a member of an organization opposed to it and not working with an organization which is part and parcel of the present system
10:07:56 PM Keshik: namely the GOP
10:08:02 PM Friend: I do not work with or for the GOP.
10:09:22 PM Keshik: if you tell me what organization you work for i can probably demonstrate that the majority of the donors to the and the majority of the people working for the organization are members of the republican party
10:09:46 PM Keshik: and probably also major donors to the republican party
10:09:53 PM Friend: Sure.
10:09:59 PM Friend: And I live in a system I largely disagree with.
10:10:06 PM Friend: The Leadership Institute.
10:10:11 PM Friend: Is where I work.
10:11:40 PM Friend: We train people technology
10:11:45 PM Friend: not grammar, apparently
10:11:52 PM Friend: How to win
10:13:02 PM Friend: You cant win if you cant pay the bills, anyway.
10:13:29 PM Friend: Some exceptions must be made on a personal level to work towards what I believe to be
10:13:34 PM Friend: best
10:15:59 PM Keshik: don't you place yourself in a situation where you disagree with every government initiative and end up working to get stuff passed that you disagree with and working to get stuff blocked that you disagree with
10:16:10 PM Friend: I do not work to get things passed
10:16:16 PM Friend: We are a 501 (c) 3
10:16:26 PM Keshik: yes I've been reading about it
10:16:28 PM Friend: Non-partisan
10:16:34 PM Friend: And I work in the Technology department
10:16:38 PM Keshik: but not ideological
10:16:47 PM Keshik: rather not non-ideological
10:17:07 PM Friend: Nothing is.
10:17:27 PM Keshik: I disagree
10:17:33 PM Friend: Everything has a goal.
10:17:39 PM Friend: Even Nihilists.
10:17:44 PM Keshik: goals are not necessarily idologies
10:17:46 PM Keshik: ideologies
10:17:51 PM Friend: Systems of thought / belief?
10:18:01 PM Friend: There is no single one at LI, more a general one.
10:18:12 PM Friend: Generally Conservative, in all its contradictory forms.
10:18:20 PM Keshik: yes
10:18:58 PM Keshik: i do find it amusing that republicans frequently speak at the Leadership Institute
10:19:02 PM Friend: I also do work with Young Americans for Liberty in my free time - they just began renting space here.
10:19:06 PM Keshik: don't see many examples of Democrats doing so
10:19:06 PM Friend: They do.
10:19:12 PM Friend: There aren't.
10:19:13 PM Keshik: any, to be honest
10:19:19 PM Friend: The training has democrats
10:19:22 PM Friend: has all kinds
10:19:30 PM Friend: What particular part are you refering to?
10:19:42 PM Friend: And frankly, we have plenty of statists and libertarians and all over.
10:19:46 PM Friend: Working and speaking.
10:19:58 PM Friend: training
10:19:59 PM Keshik: dude would you describe yourself as an anarchis
10:20:01 PM Keshik: t
10:20:04 PM Friend: No.
10:20:07 PM Keshik: what then
10:20:24 PM Friend: I am not an anarchist, or an anarcho-capitalist.
10:20:37 PM Friend: libertarian, not Libertarian.
10:20:42 PM Friend: Well, closest at least.
10:20:57 PM Keshik: ok then
10:21:18 PM Friend: I am called many other things, many less tasteful!
10:22:30 PM Keshik: I disagree with many things the President believes in
10:22:36 PM Keshik: I disagree with many of his decisions
10:23:09 PM Keshik: However, I acknowledge that I agree with him on some points and that support for him is support for those points
10:23:28 PM Keshik: and so I choose to support him
10:24:05 PM Keshik: You disagree with many things the President, the Democratic Party, and the Republican Party believe in
10:24:14 PM Keshik: You disagree with many of their decisions
10:24:15 PM Friend: Almost entirely.
10:24:19 PM Keshik: Almost entirely
10:24:22 PM Keshik: yes
10:24:59 PM Keshik: and yet you work for an organization which, while it does oppose the President, also supports the Republican party
10:25:07 PM Friend: It does not support the GOP.
10:25:28 PM Friend: There is nothing hidden.  The organization does not.
10:25:43 PM Friend: I see the financials myself.
10:25:52 PM Friend: I know every person who works there.
10:26:13 PM Keshik: Don't argue the technicalities of the law.  It's an organization that was founded by an executive director of the College Republican National Committee and who has been a Republican his entire life
10:26:18 PM Friend: Yes
10:26:28 PM Friend: He does that in his free time.  Not at work or the organization.
10:27:04 PM Keshik: It is an organization that in its opposition to the democratic party is effectively if not directly an aid to the Republican party
10:27:17 PM Keshik: I do not like the two party system in part for this reason
10:27:25 PM Keshik: but it is the case
10:27:30 PM Keshik: so let's acknowledge it
10:27:35 PM Friend: Sure, but LI does not do what you say it does.
10:27:43 PM Friend: It does not engage in partisan politics.  At all.
10:27:56 PM Friend: Anyone who would is fired immediately.
10:28:05 PM Friend: People do not get fired for that, because they do not get hired.
10:28:29 PM Friend: The DNC audited LI for years under Clinton.
10:28:58 PM Keshik: Ok what will you do when you leave the leadership institute
10:29:18 PM Friend: I drive home, and usually read, eat, sleep, poop, shower.
10:29:24 PM Friend: Or I go be active elsewhere.
10:29:27 PM Friend: Help YAL, etc
10:29:29 PM Friend: whatever
10:29:32 PM Keshik: I mean in a couple years dude
10:29:33 PM Friend: Go to events, waste time.l
10:29:36 PM Keshik: when you go to work elsewhere
10:29:39 PM Friend: Who knows.  I do not know.
10:29:47 PM Keshik: will you continue to work for nonpartisan groups?
10:29:51 PM Friend: Perhaps.
10:30:04 PM Keshik: would you accept a job with a partisan organization?
10:30:07 PM Friend: I might just go work in a corporation, for a party, for myself, go to school.
10:30:12 PM Friend: If it fit my views.
10:30:27 PM Friend: My requirements.
10:30:28 PM Keshik: we've established that neither major party fits your views
10:30:33 PM Friend: Indeed.
10:30:43 PM Keshik: so you would choose not to work for the DNC or GOP?
10:30:51 PM Friend: Correct.
10:30:58 PM Keshik: even if offered a job?
10:31:01 PM Friend: Correct.
10:31:05 PM Friend: I have been offered them.
10:31:20 PM Friend: Small jobs, nothing big, but I have been offered them.l
10:31:27 PM Friend: Only if for a candidate.  Not for a party.
10:31:55 PM Keshik: Would you work for a candidate who wants
10:31:59 PM Keshik: hmm
10:32:42 PM Keshik: who wants to abolish the income tax, but also wishes for the ten commandments to be taught in schools and for evolution to be banned from all school curriculae?
10:32:49 PM Friend: No.
10:32:59 PM Friend: Not with my system of beliefs.
10:33:35 PM Keshik: I'm tired
10:33:39 PM Friend: I as well.
10:33:50 PM Keshik: let me conclude by saying this
10:33:55 PM Keshik: and hoping you'll believe me
10:33:58 PM Keshik: I'm not ignorant
10:34:05 PM Keshik: I do not think you are ignorant
10:34:08 PM Keshik: we disagree
10:34:10 PM Keshik: HONESTLY
10:34:17 PM Friend: You are ignorant to the ideas in the book I suggested you, I assure you.
10:34:29 PM Friend: And that is not an insult, you simply are not familiar with them in the way they are laid out.
10:34:44 PM Keshik: Alright
10:34:44 PM Friend: I do not say it disrespectfully
10:34:46 PM Keshik: Tomorrow
10:34:48 PM Keshik: I will read
10:34:51 PM Keshik: your gay book
10:34:53 PM Friend: I am ignorant to the book I just purchased!
10:34:59 PM Friend: It is full of dicks
10:35:00 PM Friend: cocks
10:35:04 PM Keshik: what book
10:35:18 PM Friend: The crypto-marxist book
10:35:21 PM Friend:
10:35:41 PM Friend: the book i suggested has lots of phallus
10:35:45 PM Friend: and misspellings
10:35:57 PM Keshik: wanna know a book i've been reading and enjoying
10:36:02 PM Keshik: lemme get the amazon link
10:36:03 PM Keshik: it rules
10:36:36 PM Friend: As long as it has phallus
10:36:46 PM Keshik: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1417948329
10:36:49 PM Friend: all my books are nothing but homoeroticism
10:36:55 PM Keshik: don't buy that one it's just scans of the pages
10:37:02 PM Friend: hahahaha
10:37:03 PM Friend: asjdf;lk
10:37:04 PM Keshik: i got one from the HCPL
10:37:08 PM Friend: hcpl
10:37:14 PM Friend: oh
10:37:45 PM Friend: http://books.google.com/books?id=coQQAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=talks+of+napoleon&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
10:37:46 PM Keshik: i bet you're opposed to government run libraries though so that's not an option for you
10:37:48 PM Keshik: HAHAHAAH
10:37:51 PM Friend: hahahaha
10:38:02 PM Keshik: oh snapples
10:38:23 PM Keshik: google is a public good
10:38:24 PM Friend: i would be absolutely fine with voluntary libraries
10:39:14 PM Keshik: but not if the people democratically choose to form libraries because the one illiterate asshole will go THIS IS ARE COUNTRY FUCK YOU STATISTS
10:39:15 PM Friend: a piece of my insanity
10:39:16 PM Friend: http://mises.org/about/3225
10:39:33 PM Friend: Only because I would not be able to opt out
10:39:56 PM Friend: and if there was enough public support for the government to do it on a volutary basis, then there is no reason for the government to do it
10:40:36 PM Keshik: what if there isn't public support for something but it's important that the government do it anyway
10:40:57 PM Friend: liberty
10:41:00 PM Friend: personal liberty
10:41:30 PM Friend: what government provides it controls, and those involved are controled by it
10:41:55 PM Keshik: what if the majority of the people are opposed to a government policy
10:42:04 PM Keshik: but it's important to preserving liberty
10:42:27 PM Friend: let that be decided by the system
10:42:36 PM Friend: but what happens cannot infringe upon the individual liberty
10:42:58 PM Keshik: what if it infringes on peoples' property rights but not on their liberty
10:43:11 PM Friend: property rights are inherent to liberty
10:43:19 PM Keshik: EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION
10:43:21 PM Keshik: BOOM HEADSHOT
10:43:29 PM Keshik: goodnight folks i'll be here all week
10:43:30 PM Friend: What about it?
10:44:05 PM Friend: People are not property.
10:44:19 PM Keshik: some would disagree
10:44:26 PM Friend: People often do.
10:44:39 PM Friend: The governments role would be to prevent people becoming property
10:46:23 PM Friend: I must sleep
10:46:29 PM Keshik: goodnight sweet prince
10:46:31 PM Friend: I awake at 4.
10:46:34 PM Friend: Night bro.