[13:07] * @Sniper stares at strazh
[13:08] <@Sniper> Hey mate, do you play the game?
[13:09] <strazh> yes, frequently
[13:09] <strazh> kind of frustrating i can't play it on linux, but my windows computers all run it fine
[13:09] <@Sniper> What's with the hate mongering?
[13:10] <strazh> i dont really consider pointing out flaws in what's said hate mongering
[13:10] <@Sniper> Someone else on the team is working on linux support right now, and we're dealing with a compiler issue with the engine at the moment.
[13:10] <strazh> yes, i read that on the official forums
[13:10] <@Sniper> I think you're more or less a troll.
[13:11] <strazh> You're entitled to your opinion.
[13:12] <@Sniper> You've listened to one side of the story, and finalized your opinion and decided to lash out from it. Pretty fair person you are!
[13:12] <@Sniper> Every team out there has arguments.
[13:13] <MirroR> i have seen this scenario before, someone says something about the mod that isnt right then he is marked as a troll
[13:13] <strazh> Historically I don't believe in fairness, fairness was explained to me as equal distribution of limited resources; usually when they belong to me.
[13:14] <@duggles> nice non-sequitor
[13:15] <strazh> Probably more important things to do than heckle me on IRC, I personally would focus on PR or the cause of disagreements.
[13:15] <@Dynamite> are there game issues with the linux client? I recall only the engine being tricky to clean up
[13:16] <@duggles> Dynamite: vgui2 is misbehaving, fonts are incorrect, and the sound system is unloading improperly
[13:16] <@duggles> there may be other problems but the vgui one is blocking me from properly testing
[13:17] <@Sniper> strazh: Not heckling - I just don't believe you're a member of the community.
[13:17] <@Sniper> If you're here to stir things up, you're not welcome.
[13:17] <@Dynamite> duggles, what is the problem with vgui?
[13:18] <strazh> You're also entitled to that opinion, though I can't really expect you to keep track of my name collection.
[13:18] <@Sniper> If you're here to talk about Sven Co-op, feel free to stay.
[13:18] <@duggles> Dynamite: not sure, seems to segfault on startup
[13:19] <@duggles> probably skmething to do with fonts
[13:19] <@duggles> font are poop :(
[13:19] <@Dynamite> are you able to debug it?
[13:20] <@duggles> adam's been helping me
[13:20] <@duggles> but he's at work now
[13:20] <strazh> It is good to see that the linux client is being worked on, it's the feature I'm looking forward most to besides the svc_bad fix.
[13:20] <@duggles> and the drama over the weekend distracted us
[13:20] <@Dynamite> there was drama?! :D
[13:20] <@duggles> ikr
[13:21] <@Sniper> We've known about the SVC_BAD problem for quite a while. I worked with Sam to find a fix for it.
[13:22] <@Sniper> There were some size issues in the engine's networking of messages, should be hopefully fixed.
[13:22] <@Sniper> If it's not fixed we'll have to dig deeper.
[13:22] <strazh> Sounds good.
[13:24] <@Sniper> http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43812-Next-Engine-Game-Update-ETA-and-General-News?p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115
[13:24] <@Sniper> Fixed the prime cause of svc_bad drops. (Hopefully.)
[13:24] <@Sniper> Key word in that sentence is hopefully.
[13:25] <@Dynamite> how long is solo banned for?
[13:25] <@Sniper> The other issue is metamod might also cause a similar problem.
[13:25] <MirroR> i wanna know that too
[13:27] <+Misfire> as a note: I've definitely experienced svc_bad on non-metamod - sometimes more so than on metamod
[13:27] <strazh> I don't think banning solo accomplishes much, most of the hotter roasting comments arn't even his.
[13:27] <@Sniper> Yep that's understood - I'm just stating that some metamod plugins could cause the issue.
[13:27] <@Sniper> (i.e. corrupted data)
[13:29] <@Sniper> Contrary from the bullshit posted in random areas, we're not trying to kill off metamod
[13:30] <@Sniper> There was a joke a long time ago among the team that we should crash the game if SCXPM was being used
[13:30] <@Sniper> (Silencer is a team member)
[13:31] <@Sniper> We've supported metamod throughout the game's history though, compiling custom versions and sending out code headers from the game dlls to developers
[13:31] <@Sniper> There was fear that if we were to make game breaking changes in the engine, metamod might no longer work.
[13:32] <@Sniper> That's why the angelscript-based server plugin functionality was put together
[13:32] <strazh> A lot of the major servers depend on metamod, so that seems like a valid concern.
[13:32] <@Sniper> angelscript probably has, in some ways, more power than metamod (minus dll files)
[13:33] <@Sniper> The goal was to have numerous svencoop game hooks exposed to the angelscript plugins, to make things a bit easier to get tasks accomplished.
[13:34] <@Sniper> Though angelscript's primary purpose is to provide a mini HLSDK on the mapper level.
[13:35] <strazh> I don't know how important that would be, few people remaining in the community can make maps; and the ones that can are really talented.
[13:36] <@Sniper> There are plenty of people in the community that can create levels. The game is now free and always available, so that's not stopping new people from learning.
[13:36] <strazh> Rushing low size patches that fix individual problems on a biweekly (week a - test, week b - release or revise) might alleviate some of the tension in the community.
[13:37] <@Sniper> Our documentation is shit though, that's what I'm spending my time on these days.
[13:38] <@Sniper> That's a shared opinion on the team. We definitely want to release updates more frequently.
[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> As someone who works at a company where a weekly release schedule is a thing, beware :P
[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> The deadlines are sufficiently crushing that you start outputting bugs
[13:39] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the community has in turn become quite angry (reasonably so)
[13:39] <@Sniper> Right, that's the other issue.
[13:39] <strazh> Soft deadlines are a good suggestion, since theres no money involved theres no reason to consider hard deadlines
[13:39] <@Sniper> We're aiming for a goal of one release per month, but more than likely it's going to be bi-monthly.
[13:40] <@Dynamite> every other month seems reasonable
[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> So one project is now slowly migrating towards a stable and dev branch solution, where stable is basically left untouched and people can deal with the problems there, while dev maintains its weekly march, until it's more-or-less stable worthy
[13:40] <@Sniper> There's a few programmers active, but right now I'm not working on the code base.
[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the other project is basically not updating right now while we actually work out the appropriate process
[13:40] <@Sniper> My focuses are on the documentation / website.
[13:41] <strazh> Maybe post some 'available positions' for people able to accomplish tasks like working on the code, as frustrating as it is for members of the team to have him around, solo was getting a lot of work done.
[13:41] * Deepflame|AFK is now known as Deepflame
[13:42] <@Sniper> Solo was very vocal about the amount of work he got done.
[13:42] <@Sniper> However, if you can understand where I'm coming from, before Solokiller joined the team we had mega changelogs then too.
[13:42] <strazh> Being vocal about accomplishments helps the community be at ease, people feel like things are actually getting done
[13:42] <@Sniper> Solokiller was a great asset but he's not the only programmer on the team.
[13:43] <+Misfire> we love when shit gets done
[13:43] <strazh> I don't know if I'd prioratize website/documentation when there's large bugs and unsupported devices; but that's just me.
[13:43] <@Sniper> See, the problem with communication is that when there are agreements, people generally don't say anything.
[13:43] <@Deepflame> Poor documentation leads to more bugs
[13:43] <@Sniper> When there are disagreements, then it draws attention and focus.
[13:44] <strazh> I do agree with that too, deepflame
[13:44] <@Sniper> I can assure you we've had far more many agreements than disagreements. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have been on the team.
[13:44] <@Sniper> Most of our work is currently conducted through our BTS
[13:45] <@Sniper> Tasks are assigned and requests are considered (from other team members, or taken straight from the commmunity) on there.
[13:45] <@Sniper> We do have a system in place, it works pretty well.
[13:46] <@Sniper> Anyway, my focus already is on the website/documentation as I said.
[13:46] <@Sniper> I've put a lot of time into it already, still a lot of work left to do.
[13:46] <strazh> I'd locate someone good at code to work on things there while you handle website/documentation then.
[13:47] <@Sniper> Part of the reason why we're switching to a new website (other than that the current one is a piece of shit from 2001) is that we're dealing with a lot of bot spam.
[13:47] <@Sniper> The new website will be integrated with Steam (there's a bunch of backend programming that has to happen so that avatars, user profile data, etc can get passed through Valve's web api)
[13:50] <@Sniper> Right now the forums have all of china blocked
[13:50] <@Deepflame> xD
[13:50] <@Deepflame> So much distress over a free game :(
[13:51] <@Sniper> Yeah, makes you wonder why we even bother
[13:51] <@Sniper> But, you know, I should kill myself because people on the internet told me to.
[13:52] <@Sniper> </sarcasm>
[13:52] <@Deepflame> Seems reasonable
[13:52] <strazh> dedication to the cause is a good reason to bother, as long as you're looking out for the project
[13:52] <MirroR> what you expect from modern people
[13:52] <+Misfire> its the internet
[13:53] <+Misfire> 13 year olds fuck my mom every night
[13:53] <@Sniper> Now I have to go out to my garage and put a wheel back on my xterra, because I have to get it towed. blargh
[13:53] * @Sniper runs away
[13:53] <strazh> internet society usually tells you to kill yourself on hourly basis
[13:53] <MirroR> how many deaththreats im getting too monthly
[13:53] <MirroR> too many
[13:54] <strazh> I get a lot, also threats of having my accounts seized and ransomed, and worst of all
[13:54] <strazh> insurance and credit card offers
[13:54] <+Misfire> its the new slang of the internet
[13:54] <+Misfire> look at any leafy video
[13:54] <+Misfire> lol
[13:54] <MirroR> best thing was that one lunatic threattened to put some neonazis find me and torture me because he thinks im planning against him
[13:54] <MirroR> internet is full of crazies
[13:54] <strazh> generally "honestly, mate, kill yourself" means "you're a popular guy"
[13:55] <MirroR> most of em just talk cause its easy to say stuff behind nickname
[13:56] <strazh> To be fair, when you don't those threats come to your face; or people recognize you and know who to censor
[13:56] <MirroR> its easy to act big if your face isnt showing
[13:56] <strazh> I have an easier time acting big when my face is on the line :p
[13:57] <@Dynamite> so this guy, right
[13:57] <@Dynamite> cannons me
[13:57] <@Dynamite> but I 2-gated him
[13:57] <@Sniper> BTW - I receive no donation money. No one on the team does.
[13:57] <+Misfire> Dynamite, cheeser?
[13:57] <@Sniper> The donation fund pays for the main website (I have nothing to do with it)
[13:57] <@Dynamite> and then he didnt have minerals right and then I beat him cuz he couldn't make cannons near my base :)
[13:57] <@Dynamite> Misfire, yes, we both cheesed :)
[13:57] <+Misfire> lol
[13:58] <@Dynamite> proxy 2-gate
[13:58] <@Sniper> Donation money was used to pay for broken hard drives in the past, and some software licenses I believe. Otherwise, it's mainly the website draining the funds.
[13:58] <@Sniper> I think I've probably spent a little over $7000 on the forums so far
[13:58] <@Sniper> Not exactly cheap
[13:59] <+Misfire> 7000 on forums
[13:59] <+Misfire> damn
[13:59] <+Misfire> i assume thats over 10 years time
[13:59] <@Sniper> Let me check...
[13:59] <@Sniper> 6 years
[14:00] <@Sniper> about $100 a month
[14:00] <+Misfire> ah i see, adds up quickly
[14:00] <strazh> lot of money, hopefully the new design will reduce costs
[14:00] <@Sniper> The servers have been running since 2010
[14:00] <@Sniper> That's just the hosting cost
[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into switching to SSL, so that'll probably cost more money as well
[14:01] <@Dynamite> use that new TLS stuff?
[14:01] <@Dynamite> let's encrypt. That is suppose to be free
[14:01] <@Sniper> (HTTPS for everyone)
[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into that too, but I think last time I checked it wasn't allowing new registrations
[14:02] <@Sniper> I'm not quite ready for that yet, still planning on finishing the website before I get that stuff together
[14:02] <@Sniper> (I picture that being the last step)
[14:02] <@Dynamite> new forum then too?
[14:02] <@Sniper> The new website is a giant forum
[14:02] <@Sniper> basically
[14:03] <@Dynamite> may I reserve user ID 69?
[14:03] <@Sniper> lels
[14:03] <@Dynamite> =)
[14:09] <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
[14:16] <@Dynamite> now THAT'S how you cannon :D
[14:16] <@Dynamite> teehee
[14:17] <@Dynamite> I'm a terrible person
[14:25] <@Sniper> <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
[14:25] <@Sniper> The current website was created in 2001
[14:26] <@Sniper> It's pretty bad, yep.
[14:31] <strazh> its a beautiful day outside, i think i might have a cigar
[14:33] <@Sniper> Interesting, everyone thinks I'm banning people
[14:34] <strazh> where
[14:34] <@Sniper> Oh that lovely reddit thread
[14:34] <strazh> reddits pretty extremist, while it has valid points I wouldn't worry too much about it.
[14:35] <strazh> the main focus should be on the product
[14:35] <@Sniper> I'm not taking it too seriously here, because it looks more like a somethingawful post
[14:36] <@Sniper> People seem to think I'm the only team member though... interesting
[14:36] <strazh> You're kind of the 'face' of sven co-op, the big boss.
[14:37] <strazh> Even considering the team as a democracy you're the president to everyone else.
[14:37] <@Sniper> All of this is pretty weird, because he wanted to never talk about the situation in public.
[14:37] <@Sniper> He said he deleted the source code, but he started posting snippets of it in our forums
[14:37] <@Sniper> Adam questioned him about it, and then this all started up
[14:38] <strazh> I wouldn't blame it entirely on solo, the communitys been edgy for a while.
[14:38] <@Sniper> That's my perspective anyway
[14:38] <strazh> Solo's posts helps people diagnose problems and understand them, and while it's frustrating that he'd keep 'team assets' the overall help seems more important
[14:38] <@Sniper> He basically said all of our agreements meant nothing because this isn't a real company
[14:39] <@Sniper> Yes but that should be the team's job, he's no longer on the team
[14:39] <@Sniper> We do make strives to answer questions, and yes, he usually beats us to it.
[14:40] <@Sniper> But we've got to work on the game too.
[14:40] <@Sniper> He didn't want to be on the team, so it's his choice. Just pretty shitty that he's doing this.
[14:41] <@Sniper> http://puu.sh/phXl9/c0b1888b47.jpg
[14:41] <@Sniper> He's definitely not the victim here. He actually just wanted to take over the mod.
[14:41] <strazh> he's providing what many consider to be valuable documentation as a freelance, public viewing of the source would do the same thing
[14:42] <@Sniper> Our source code is closed to public viewing.
[14:42] <@Sniper> We have signed agreements with Valve that we need to maintain.
[14:42] <strazh> Yeah.
[14:43] <@Sniper> Also regarding the DMCA stuff - pretty sure we've got everything out of the game. There might be a few things still in there, but we'll remove them as necessary.
[14:43] <@duggles> well, he had plenty of time to write this documentation whilst he was on the team. there were months where he did nothing to angelscript where he could have been making the docs (or even finishing unfinished angelscript things like database access)
[14:43] <strazh> I'm not going to argue the finer points of NDA but I've seen the HL1 source code
[14:44] <strazh> why complain about free work, even if he isn't on the team if his contributions are helping then I'd praise them
[14:44] <@Sniper> It's our intellectual property, and it's how we operate
[14:45] <@Sniper> He was free to take his source code contributions. He asked if he could use it in another project. No one complained.
[14:46] <strazh> Did you do anything to secure the rights to your intellectual property
[14:46] <@Sniper> I'm assuming cryogenicneuron is cryokeen, or just simply keen
[14:46] <strazh> 100% keen
[14:46] <@Sniper> He was the reason why I joined the team. He made a cool map.
[14:46] <+Misfire> keen was why you joined the team?
[14:46] <@Sniper> I've had no beef with him.
[14:47] <@Sniper> Yep
[14:47] <MirroR> keen uses always cry names
[14:47] <@Sniper> Tunnel was one of my favorite maps (at the time)
[14:47] <+Misfire> ah didn't know
[14:48] <@Sniper> I've actually tried to contact Keen when he was banned from the forums
[14:48] <@Sniper> He usually gets banned from our forums on a regular basis
[14:49] <@Sniper> Sometimes I haven't agreed with the banning, and I tried to talk to him a few times to find out what was going on
[14:49] <MirroR> his real life issues make big contrast what he does online
[14:49] <@Sniper> But he's posted some really terrible stuff lately. I think he has some chemical dependence issues or something.
[14:50] <strazh> He's had issues with chems in the past, and he's outspoken without thinking of his word choice.
[14:50] <@Sniper> He always loves to joke about taking drugs
[14:50] <MirroR> he still has
[14:50] <strazh> dosen't joke about the drugs, he's all srs about that
[14:50] <MirroR> and he isnt quite sane anymore reason i got in big fight with him
[14:51] <@Sniper> I don't usually ban people from the message forums. I usually target spam bots when possible, but I left the forum admins take care of the community. That's what they like doing and they're good at it.
[14:51] <MirroR> bit too harsh sometimes
[14:51] <@Sniper> *let the forum admins
[14:51] <Aurora^> I'd say a person's arguments ought to be judged on their own weight without giving any regard to who it is or what they're smoking
[14:51] <MirroR> yea thats actually true
[14:51] <@Sniper> Right, I like Keen's stuff usually
[14:52] <strazh> Keen manages insight even when he's raving about 5chan.bsp being the greatest
[14:52] <@Sniper> Anyway I've tried to contact him several times, but he doesn't respond. No idea.
[14:54] <@Sniper> His map is still in the mod
[14:54] <@Sniper> It's a pretty good map
[14:54] <strazh> He makes good stuff from time to time, sectore was pretty good
[14:54] <@Sniper> So, anyway, no idea what's going on there, can't help him.
[14:55] <strazh> horsecock_b7 and his recent work wern't his finest moments, but they did help a lot of people get inspiration for 'higher quality' maps with his innovative use of things
[14:55] <MirroR> i dont like him personally anymore but i have to say in past
[14:55] <MirroR> he has done some good maps
[14:55] <MirroR> newest map of his was total nightmare though
[14:55] <MirroR> well few new maps
[14:55] <strazh> yeah i told him his maps starting with 5chan have been trash
[14:56] <strazh> its just a bunch of memes plastered on what could be a good idea; but the good idea isn't finished
[14:56] <MirroR> yea
[14:56] <MirroR> i really hated coldburn too
[14:56] <MirroR> eventhough it had good idea
[14:56] <MirroR> keen's problem with mapping is too that he copy pastes same areas
[14:56] <MirroR> all over again
[14:56] <MirroR> from older maps of his
[14:57] <strazh> i can summarize his recent maps with "really good use of func_vehicle" "unique minigame" "atmosphere"
[14:57] <strazh> I always do like new content, and even then I redo the rooms instead of making a release
[14:57] <strazh> thats why I dont have any maps out
[14:58] <MirroR> i dont have any maps out cause i dont have enough focus or motivation
[14:58] <MirroR> twice tried now i almost did complete one but broke it
[14:58] <strazh> I got a mix of real-life things and server/client side issues in sven that also prevent
[14:59] <@Sniper> We're still working with the half-life engine here, so there's a lot of problems that we're fixing that still exist in HL1.
[15:00] <@Sniper> The goal for most of the projects has been to kind of replace components in the engine piece by piece.
[15:01] <@Sniper> We might not be able to fix every problem in the game (without changing how the networking works), but things are improving
[15:01] <@Sniper> Some issues are lower priority than others, we can't fix all problems at once. People don't understand this.
[15:04] <@Sniper> The update following this one has a new NPC (Geneworm Boss), some new engine features (I implemented gl_overbright - with an experimental gl_ovebright for models), along with entity point lighting that accounts for brush models, hopefully a new model update to support TGA (I've got the code outlined for what needs to be modified)
[15:04] <@Sniper> That's on my docket for now, but the website is getting worked on in the meantime
[15:07] <@Sniper> The geneworm was actually a huge pain in the ass to program, because I had to extract the entity dimensions with a debugger attached to gearbox's build of the game
[15:08] <@Sniper> They don't have that information in the FGD, it's all floating points
[15:08] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/entity_brushmodel_lighting.jpg
[15:09] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/of6a5-2016-03-27-0012.jpg
[15:09] <strazh> I don't know how much demand there is for geneworm, though I have to admit that's a lot of work to bring it up
[15:09] <@Sniper> I might tweak the eyeball lighting a bit, it's not the same shade as the original
[15:10] <strazh> The most common complaint I see is "svc_bad needs an immediate fix" and that there arn't any hotfixes ever
[15:10] <@Sniper> Yeah that's something we're addressing. Keep in mind we're handling a merge from Sam's updates.
[15:11] <@Sniper> As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to fix anything now - we just have to get the release out.
[15:12] <@Sniper> (Since it's fixed...)
[15:12] <@Sniper> We can't fix it unless it's released. >_<
[15:12] <@Sniper> Well, *hopefully* fixed, that is.
[15:12] <strazh> I'd release what you have ready either now or soon, and keep working on the rest of the planned update
[15:13] <strazh> If it's new and i works it dosen't make any sense to delay it
[15:13] <@duggles> well
[15:13] <@Sniper> Regarding the geneworm - it hasn't been properly tested yet, and so it'll need to wait until the next patch
[15:13] <@Sniper> strazh: The point I was trying to make is that we're doing that
[15:13] <@Sniper> We ran into some conflicts getting the engine to compile, and that's getting sorted out
[15:14] <@Sniper> Software renderering was just removed, as well as a lot of other junk
[15:14] <@Sniper> (per the changelog published)
[15:16] <@Sniper> That's actually the first step in the grander plan
[15:17] <strazh> I'm just saying with the steady decline of players it might be a good idea to prioratize stability
[15:17] <@Sniper> We needed to simplify the engine's code base so we can cut out the fat and focus on the good parts
[15:17] <@Sniper> Looking at our stats, our player base has been pretty constant. We spiked to 6500 players on release day, but we get around 600 to 700 on the weekends.
[15:17] <@Sniper> That's more than most games on Steam
[15:18] <strazh> The last time I saw this conversation it was 900-1000 on the weekends
[15:18] <@Sniper> Still well within the margin of error there, I'd say
[15:18] <@duggles> https://steamdb.info/app/225840/graphs/
[15:18] <@Sniper> More people show up during releases to see new content, that's well understood
[15:19] <@duggles> it hasn't been over 1000 in a few months
[15:19] <@duggles> oh wow
[15:19] <@duggles> we broke a million owners in may
[15:19] <@Sniper> yeah
[15:19] * @duggles hands out party hats
[15:19] <@duggles> i didn't realise :D
[15:20] <Aurora^> Time to party
[15:23] <+Misfire> lol
[15:23] <strazh> someone get the airhorns
[15:29] <MirroR> thats bit insignificant but *clap clap clap*
[15:54] * @Puchi blows into a vuvuzela

...

[22:54] <@Sniper> Well, looks like everything is back to normal, things are chugging away
[22:54] <@Sniper> If we have to keep deleting rant posts, that's fine
[22:55] <@Sniper> I wonder how projects work without anyone being able to make decisions
[22:55] <@Sniper> My title is lead programmer for the mod, I'm in charge of it's code base. We add people to the team that we think are of sufficient quality to work with it's code.