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Conversation with Didge of ESAgamer before it went live

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Aug 13th, 2013
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  1. 00:26 - Didge: yo
  2. 00:16 - Sideshow | logs.tf: hello
  3. 00:17 - Didge: How come you added me? :D
  4. 00:17 - Didge: and what makes you think I dont have the basic understanding of how to run a tournament
  5. 00:18 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I just wanted to ask a bit more about ESA
  6. 00:18 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and my emphasis was on a pay to play tournament
  7. 00:18 - Sideshow | logs.tf: as that is part of your plan right
  8. 00:18 - Didge: sure
  9. 00:18 - Didge: a small part
  10. 00:19 - Didge: i dont think pay to play works to be honest, its just a service we offer as a benefit
  11. 00:19 - Sideshow | logs.tf: when I was talking to canfo it was just evident that the p2p tournaments would never get more than a few signups
  12. 00:19 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and I thought that if you handled it differently it could be great for the scene
  13. 00:19 - Didge: how do you think it should work
  14. 00:19 - Sideshow | logs.tf: well imo
  15. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: etf2l already controls the niche on f2p leagues in europe
  16. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: so unless you offer regular cups or a p2p league
  17. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you're not gonna be big
  18. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and when I say not big I mean smaller than wireplay
  19. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: also the idea of ELO ranking is just
  20. 00:20 - Sideshow | logs.tf: really impractical
  21. 00:21 - Didge: you dont know what your talking about
  22. 00:21 - Sideshow | logs.tf: :D
  23. 00:21 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I think I do, but go on
  24. 00:21 - Didge: go on what
  25. 00:21 - Sideshow | logs.tf: expand on why I'm wrong
  26. 00:21 - Didge: your judging us by the standards others have set
  27. 00:22 - Didge: ESA is setting new standards
  28. 00:22 - Sideshow | logs.tf: new standards for what?
  29. 00:22 - Didge: fairness
  30. 00:22 - Sideshow | logs.tf: AC client?
  31. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and if not then how is your league gonna be more fair
  32. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: what I'm getting at is
  33. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: why would I play in your league
  34. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: when etf2l has all the competition
  35. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and history
  36. 00:23 - Didge: this is on a different level to etf2l
  37. 00:23 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok, but what do you mean by that
  38. 00:24 - Didge: you'll see
  39. 00:24 - Didge: you know bean right?
  40. 00:24 - Sideshow | logs.tf: not really but I think I've heard of his name
  41. 00:24 - Sideshow | logs.tf: played in some isaninja tea
  42. 00:24 - Sideshow | logs.tf: team
  43. 00:24 - Didge: yea
  44. 00:25 - Didge: well im not here for e-fame
  45. 00:25 - Didge: im not some kid who thinks it would to cool to create a league
  46. 00:25 - Didge: this is an investment
  47. 00:25 - Sideshow | logs.tf: financial?
  48. 00:25 - Didge: im not a developer
  49. 00:26 - Didge: ive paid substantial amounts for this site
  50. 00:26 - Didge: im not going to pay the money i have without a model (i think) will work
  51. 00:26 - Sideshow | logs.tf: wait a second
  52. 00:26 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you're doing this to make a profit?
  53. 00:26 - Didge: not really
  54. 00:27 - Sideshow | logs.tf: so what do you mean by investment
  55. 00:27 - Didge: well its a for-profit, registerd company
  56. 00:27 - Sideshow | logs.tf: yeah
  57. 00:28 - Sideshow | logs.tf: the only reason I can think for someone to make a site like yours is either: they love video games, they love the tf2 scene, or they want to make money
  58. 00:28 - Sideshow | logs.tf: or a combination of them
  59. 00:28 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and you cannot expect to make a profit from this if your league isn't even running a main pay to play service, even esea don't make a profit from tf2
  60. 00:28 - Didge: its not soley tf2
  61. 00:28 - Sideshow | logs.tf: oh right yeah
  62. 00:28 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I forgot you have quite a few games actually
  63. 00:29 - Didge: nope
  64. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you don't have quite a few games?
  65. 00:29 - Didge: launching with 3
  66. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok
  67. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: tf2 and QL and ??
  68. 00:29 - Didge: dota2
  69. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok
  70. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but still, if you're investing
  71. 00:29 - Sideshow | logs.tf: then you expect something back
  72. 00:29 - Didge: ofc
  73. 00:30 - Didge: and rightly so
  74. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: of course
  75. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: not denying that
  76. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but it can't be money surely
  77. 00:30 - Didge: no im not doing entirely for money
  78. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: because your model (for tf2 at least) isn't sustainable
  79. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok
  80. 00:30 - Didge: you dont know that
  81. 00:30 - Sideshow | logs.tf: well I think I know the basics
  82. 00:30 - Didge: you dont know nothing
  83. 00:31 - Didge: your piecing rather random bits
  84. 00:31 - Didge: and filling the gaps with stuff uve seen before
  85. 00:31 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I know that you're running optional p2p tournaments
  86. 00:31 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and the team who wins
  87. 00:31 - Sideshow | logs.tf: the people who paid premium get their share of the prize pot
  88. 00:31 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and the rest goes to you
  89. 00:32 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and other p2p cups where you have to have premium and an entry fee and the entry fees all go toward the prize pool
  90. 00:32 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and you can challenge teams for money
  91. 00:32 - Didge: we dont take any commission from p2p tournaments
  92. 00:33 - Sideshow | logs.tf: well then what happens to the prize pool if not everyone has premium on the winning team
  93. 00:33 - Didge: well its clear youve seen the site
  94. 00:33 - Sideshow | logs.tf: no I've just talked to canfo
  95. 00:33 - Didge: brb smoke
  96. 00:33 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok
  97. 00:36 - Didge: back
  98. 00:37 - Didge: have you seen the site?
  99. 00:38 - Sideshow | logs.tf: no I just talked to canfo
  100. 00:38 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I don't need to see the site to understand how it will work
  101. 00:39 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and if you have entry fees for cups, nobody will enter unless they have a chance of winning
  102. 00:39 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and there's like 4 teams who have a chance
  103. 00:39 - Sideshow | logs.tf: so you'll have a 4 team cup
  104. 00:39 - Didge: were giving people the money to p2p
  105. 00:40 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you're giving people money
  106. 00:40 - Sideshow | logs.tf: to then give back to you
  107. 00:40 - Sideshow | logs.tf: why not just make a free to play cup
  108. 00:40 - Didge: no
  109. 00:40 - Didge: vice versa
  110. 00:41 - Sideshow | logs.tf: what do you mean
  111. 00:41 - Sideshow | logs.tf: please explain
  112. 00:42 - Didge: we give gamers money to pay to play... through various methods.... then they can multiply and compete as much as they like or withdraw
  113. 00:42 - Didge: p2p tournaments are 0% commission
  114. 00:42 - Sideshow | logs.tf: how are you ever going to make money if you take 0% commission
  115. 00:42 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and also give people money
  116. 00:42 - Didge: p2p isnt our main focus
  117. 00:42 - Sideshow | logs.tf: what is your main focus then
  118. 00:42 - Didge: as i said, i dont think it works
  119. 00:43 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok
  120. 00:43 - Didge: i think it works the ESA way
  121. 00:43 - Sideshow | logs.tf: the ESA way?
  122. 00:43 - Sideshow | logs.tf: where you pay people to play and take no commission
  123. 00:44 - Didge: kinda ye
  124. 00:44 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but you're giving people money
  125. 00:44 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and not getting any back
  126. 00:44 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you're gonna lose money
  127. 00:44 - Didge: nope
  128. 00:44 - Didge: can i ask what you do for a day job
  129. 00:45 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I'm a medical student
  130. 00:45 - Didge: well stop with your condesending chat
  131. 00:46 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I'm pointing out obvious holes in your model, and you're not filling in the gaps for me
  132. 00:46 - Didge: i dont know who you are, were not live yet
  133. 00:46 - Didge: its got little to do with you...
  134. 00:47 - Didge: if you have ideas, please share
  135. 00:47 - Didge: but if you dont know the gaps, you should i assume ive identified them
  136. 00:48 - Didge: do you want to know some stuff
  137. 00:48 - Sideshow | logs.tf: yes
  138. 00:48 - Sideshow | logs.tf: please
  139. 00:48 - Didge: when researching the market
  140. 00:48 - Didge: i got the financial records of the major leagues and providers
  141. 00:48 - Didge: one of which, turn over 10million
  142. 00:48 - Didge: make a 2 million loss
  143. 00:49 - Didge: but on average, they give 15% of their net turnover in prizes
  144. 00:49 - Didge: esa model pledges a lot more
  145. 00:49 - Didge: gamers are getting had off left right and centre
  146. 00:49 - Didge: you dont even have a clue
  147. 00:50 - Sideshow | logs.tf: right for starters
  148. 00:50 - Sideshow | logs.tf: no company loses 2 million per year
  149. 00:50 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and is still active
  150. 00:50 - Sideshow | logs.tf: that's bull
  151. 00:50 - Didge: rofl
  152. 00:50 - Didge: you just confirmed how uneducated in the real world of business you are
  153. 00:51 - Sideshow | logs.tf: why would a company carry on providing a prize pool when they're losing 2 million per year
  154. 00:51 - Didge: esl hardly pay their prize pool
  155. 00:52 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok but you're saying as a company they lose in total 2 million pounds per year
  156. 00:52 - Sideshow | logs.tf: leagues are not big enough to sustain that kind of loss on average per year
  157. 00:52 - Didge: 10 million is huge
  158. 00:53 - Didge: a monster of a company
  159. 00:53 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok wait you're saying they have an income of 10 mil and an outgoing of 2mil?
  160. 00:53 - Sideshow | logs.tf: or an overall loss of 2mil?
  161. 00:53 - Didge: no because that would be a profit of 8m
  162. 00:53 - Sideshow | logs.tf: yeah I know
  163. 00:53 - Didge: and an 80% net profit is very unlikely
  164. 00:53 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ofc
  165. 00:54 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but losing 2mil per year is also very unlikely that the company is still running
  166. 00:54 - Didge: no
  167. 00:54 - Didge: not when your turning over 10m
  168. 00:54 - Didge: look at football clubs
  169. 00:54 - Didge: losing a lot more than that
  170. 00:55 - Didge: as long as you pay interest on the defecit, banks wont close you down
  171. 00:55 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok so you're saying that ON AVERAGE major leagues have an income of 10mil
  172. 00:55 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but an outgoing of 12mil
  173. 00:55 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and therefore lose 2mil per year
  174. 00:55 - Didge: on average? no
  175. 00:56 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I thought you said you'd looked at a lot of major leagues
  176. 00:56 - Didge: thats a range
  177. 00:57 - Sideshow | logs.tf: how is that a range
  178. 00:57 - Sideshow | logs.tf: a range is 2 values, the top and bottom
  179. 00:57 - Didge: ye
  180. 00:57 - Didge: "ON AVERAGE"
  181. 00:58 - Didge: you dont know what your talking about
  182. 00:58 - Didge: you have no clue about business
  183. 00:58 - Didge: how it works
  184. 00:58 - Didge: and your judging stuff on an uneducated opinion
  185. 00:58 - Didge: i wouldnt tell you how to be a doctor or whatever
  186. 00:59 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok ok well assume I have no clue and tell me what you mean about this 10mil income and 2mil loss
  187. 00:59 - Sideshow | logs.tf: layman speak
  188. 00:59 - Didge: XYZ league has a net turnover of 10million and it has an annual loss of 2million
  189. 00:59 - Didge: in round figures
  190. 01:00 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok I get that, but which league have you got these figures from?
  191. 01:00 - Didge: do your research
  192. 01:01 - Sideshow | logs.tf: no you did the research and I'm asking you
  193. 01:01 - Didge: no, i am not saying, its public information that i do not wish to put into the domain
  194. 01:04 - Didge: spit it out
  195. 01:04 - Sideshow | logs.tf: sorry writing a long reply
  196. 01:05 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok well I think those figures are wrong, or they are figures from a league which is dead. Any active league run as a company makes a profit or breaks even, otherwise they would not be able to provide prize pools and would stop being able to function. And going back to your previous point that gamers get the bad end of the deal in this situation, it's a better deal that what community run leagues like etf2l can offer and it's better than what you can offer (from what I have heard so far, please change my mind) because you have no income from your site, only expenses
  197. 01:06 - Didge: those figures are not wrong....any company that turns over 5million has to publish their full accounts, prepared by chartered accountants... it has there gross salary bill and its itemised
  198. 01:07 - Didge: you havent heard nothing
  199. 01:07 - Didge: you're not entitled to hear anything
  200. 01:08 - Didge: im tryign to be reserved, you must notice i am intentionally not telling you stuff
  201. 01:08 - Didge: you can go play for pride at community sites
  202. 01:08 - Didge: i dont care
  203. 01:08 - Sideshow | logs.tf: I'm not saying that but you must understand that for people to use your site it has to have a USP
  204. 01:09 - Didge: it has loads of USP's
  205. 01:09 - Sideshow | logs.tf: ok cool, what are they?
  206. 01:09 - Didge: you will find out the same time as everybody else
  207. 01:10 - Didge: you know, if you hadnt been posting on forums about the basic understanding and other people sharing your concerns
  208. 01:10 - Didge: i would have been more open with you and demonstrated what were doing
  209. 01:11 - Didge: i get the reservation though, ive been in this industry longer than you
  210. 01:11 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but if I had thought it was a good idea I wouldn't need to be convinced!
  211. 01:11 - Didge: seen, heard promises and failures
  212. 01:11 - Didge: you dont know nothing about it
  213. 01:16 - Sideshow | logs.tf: my basic problem with your model is
  214. 01:16 - Sideshow | logs.tf: you're not getting money from anywhere
  215. 01:16 - Sideshow | logs.tf: where does your income come from?
  216. 01:25 - Sideshow | logs.tf: and you said ESA pledges more than 15% of its net turnover in prizes
  217. 01:25 - Sideshow | logs.tf: but you seem to have no income other than potential sponsorship and advertising money
  218. 01:26 - Sideshow | logs.tf: so that's gonna be a very small amount
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