Bowser vs Zelda JMU Archive

*****Bowser vs Zelda JMU Archive*****
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Day 1: The Neutral

Discuss the tools each character has on the ground, with a platform in play, or spaced in the air. Focus on optimal pokes, pressure, checks that counter pivot grabs or burst options, and anti-air tools.

Keep discussion limited to the neutral and try not to segue into punish strings and other topics that will be discussed later in the week.

Bowser >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the ground, Bowser's safest options are actually limited to Jab. Everything else is easily punished on whiff, including our Tilts. Our pivot grab has been the source of a lot of salt, but the truth is whiffing that is on par with whiffing a smash attack.

We have the ability to dictate engagement, but because of our end lag on everything but Jab 1, baiting us is the ticket. If you can shimmy around and dance around our instant dash attack spacing, that should be your best bet in this MU

DrMcMario says:
"thats what i was saying before with dair, if she gets soft hit of dair on bowser before he uses lets say an up air or nair we go right through it"

Zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So for Zelda, NAir, Jab, and DTilt are the most used tools in grounded neutral. Jab is safe (+3 on block), good range for poking, and is a combo starter. DTilt is also a combo starter at low %. Jab is frame 11 while DTilt is frame 5.

Dash attack is a viable burst option due to its range and combo starting at low %.

For aerial neutral, NAir is the safest spaced. FAir, UAir, BAir, and DAir can be heavily punished. Despite NAir being the safest, it is still punishable on shield. Zelda has no safe aerial poke. DAir can be SHAC, however, making it situationally useful for pressure.
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Day 2-3 Tuesday/Wednesday: Disadvantage & Combos

Today and tomorrow we'll be exploring options at the ledge, juggle tools, platform pressure, and what each character has to recover or combat their disadvantage state. Since this flows directly into combos, frame traps, setups, and kill confirms, we'll be tackling these topics together. Be sure to also discuss situational combos, 50-50s, and mix-ups.

Bowser >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
UltimaLuminaire says:
"Zelda shouldn't be as concerned about killing us on stage. If you can NAir carry us or land a single FAir/BAir to send us off-stage, we are easy pickings.
Take our double jump, end the koopa, basically.

As for our grab kill confirm, Zelda isn't vulnerable to UThrow -> BAir (it's a 50/50), but she does have a large window for UThrow -> UAir.

No rage; FD: 79% - 96%
It would be nice if we can land the grab, but between Jab and DTilt, it shouldn't be likely unless we get a tech chase off of Jab 2 or low % FTilt

UThrow -> NAir will typically do 24% damage, so if we nail one we're almost there
For platform pressure, you just need to be aware that we can NAir, FAir, or BAir into you. NAir has 20 frames of landing lag, while FAir and BAir auto cancel. We can mix this up with our SideB aerial Klaw for a quick anti shield, or go for the big money with rising aerial Bomb. While they are slow to come out, they can be combined with movement to mask the mix-up somewhat. All of these things combined make Bowser's platform oki one of the best in the game.

Off-stage, we're a discount Ike. We can run off and FAir you during the start-up of your recovery.
Of course, if we don't or can't do that, and you recover from high, you have no vulnerability on your recovery. At the ledge, we start to use our UpB grounded Fortress to react to ledge options. This is the cornerstone of our ledge trap game. Because of its speed and rehit-rate, Fortress allows us to react to every ledge option except waiting at the ledge. This can keep you in disadvantage, or can be mixed up to land a grab, ledge trump -> BAir, you name it."

The Book of Zelda, written by GoldMember:
"As just about anyone in the Smash scene knows, Bowser gets his "combos" from grabs. He can jab to grab or jab to a special,  however these links won't be true on Zelda.
Right from 0% Bowser has uthrow to utilt as a true combo
After about 10%, uthrow will true combo into nair up until around 80%, obviously at the higher %s it's better to follow up with fair due to nair not connecting all the hits
Uthrow into fair combos around 20% on Zelda, and can be used for other tech chase situations if need be, but usually Bowser will opt for the raw damage of uthrow nair
Like Ultima mentioned, we cannot get a true uthrow to bair on Zelda, so if you air dodge be careful!
And of course, uthrow to uair as our killing combo, our signature slayer, our Princess Punisher, what have you. It is a true combo, and the window is generous. The only way to really "escape" it is if Bowser does not react with his double jump in time to catch your DI. Most of the time, we expect DI away, so we are inept to jump to the left or right of course. DI'ing inward does make it a little harder to react to for some of us, but if you're caught, it's definitely going to kill. You can still DI the hit of up air for hope, but chances are it's taking your stock.

Bowser doesn't have too many combos outside of grab, more so he just has mix ups, especially after jab 1. If you're shielding, chances are we are gonna hope for a dash grab or even a pivot grab. If you jump out of jab 1, we can react with a fair, a dash attack to catch your landing, or a pivot grab if we bait an aggressive landing
Bowser can get some true combos with the late hits of falling nair, however it's difficult to land on a grounded opponent unless we bait a more laggy option.
Nair can true combo into fair and bair, if done on Zelda I would assume late hits of nair into bair would be killing around 65%
I'll lab that later
Not sure if nair to bair is true on Zelda specifically but I know we have it in our kit

Disadvantage for Bowser is really straight forward: We have nearly no combo breakers, we cannot reliably land, and we are susceptible to getting spiked if we are combo'd to the side
Approaching Bowser is almost always a no no, therefore Bowser is almost immediately at a disadvantage if you don't do anything
We get juggled easily due to us being a very large character, and while we may be able to live for a long time, it won't matter if we are being carried around the stage like Paris Hilton's dog in her purse
So not having a reliable way to the ground is very rough for Bowser. We can use down air as an escape, and it works decently if we can dair onto a platform before your commitment. If you do decide to commit, expect to get hit by the dair. Down B is nearly never a good option to land with, unless we get some amazing read.
Speaking of down b, and how straightforward our disadvantage is, our platform pressure, as mentioned by Ultima, is extremely threatening.
Nearly every character wants to shield when they are above their opponent, it's just habit. Well, Bowser definitely does not care at all. We can side b through the platform with a short hop and get you, and of course we can uthrow, and down b as you're about to land, and for some reason you'll shield, and then your stock is taken at 30%!
Nair is decent on a smaller shield to poke, but it's end lag makes it inferior to bair and fair
So in most cases, we try to condition with utilt or fair/bair when you're above us on a platform
Be very cautious about the down b read

OH! Another part of disadvantage, my apologies for skipping this one. Our ledge options are overall bad. Jump is really slow, and easily reacted to. Our neutral get up is fairly decent, and since it's active later than most, timing your punish is key. Our roll is terrible and has no distance, easily reacted to as well. Our get up attack has stellar reach, nearly to half of the Battlefield platform, but of course shielding it will put Bowser back on the ropes. We can ledge release short hop fair or side b back to the stage which gives us some more leeway, but both are punishable. We can also SHADC from ledge release but the timing is very strict. So, overall, a juggled and ledge trapped Bowser is a sad Bowser indeed. Think of it this way: He can't grab you if he's not on the stage (except for aerial side b so take note but it'll probably whiff anyhow since it's small)"

Zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Elder says:
"A, no pun intended, big factor in terms of combos that Zelda can do and her overall toolkit is Bowser's big hurtbox. Zelda may have trouble getting in, but once she gets an opening on Bowser which she can exploit with an uptilt, she can start some strings such as utilt > nair."

From Yuelia:
"Footstool setups: Mmmm our footstool set up isn't exactly reliable as I myself haven't seen any Zeldas use our footstool combo. Uptilt>Footstool>Sourspot Dair which locks however I like I said, don't find it reliable or know if you need to follow DI etc.

Recovery Mixups: Nayru's love can be used as more of a stall offstage as this allows for Zelda to not get catch right while she's in the teleport animation (again this is just moreso a way to stall in the air offstage) Now generally our ledge game will consist of trying to two frame your recovery, as the hitbox last long enough to catch it. There's also putting a Phantom near the ledge while you're coming back, or hanging on the ledge. Using Phantom offstage while Bowser comes back gives us a possible chance to put him in a bad spot, forcing him to air dodge the Phantom, and then we trap that with a Dair next. This however can be avoided as long as you are out of the range. It's just moreso we'll see how you'll react to it. F-Tilt actually goes a good job at catching people who jump near the ledge, but it's not really used unfortunately. Now when it comes to us mixing up our ledge options, we like to do a possible jump >Nair near the ledge or jump> Nayru's. However we can't do this all the time as it can be baited out. Zelda just has to figure out a way to get back on stage, but Bowser does a job at covering Zelda's ledge options so it's moreso on our end to find a way to get back on stage.

Unsafe on hit: Zelda should never use Dtilt at low percent as Bowser can armor through it and punch us for it so the best option is to look for a grab instead. Nayru's can be really risky and baited our so if the Bowser baits it out, we're gonna get a lot of damage taken lol...I personally do not use Jab often as i am not a fan of the move being frame 11 so I don't know, I just feel unsafe using it all the time...Zelda shouldn't use Uptilt at low percent since Bowser will be able to break through that to
Percent Range on Kill Confirms : Dtilt is one of the main starter moves that can combo plus set up for a kill confirm. Dtilt > Upair, Dtilt > Fair, Dtilt > Upsmash. Dthrow > Upair is a 50/50 when we follow the DI, F-Tilt has decent kill power in (kills maybe starting around...115-120?....) we also like to do a OoS Up-B as the move comes out frame 7 so incase we see a Bowser get a whiff on our shield, we can Up-B OoS for the kill. OoS Fair and Bair are also a thing, Bair coming out the fastest at frame 6 while Fair is frame 9, so it can be a bit scary to know you'll get kicked from behind if you whiff an attack up close. Generally the sets up of Dtilt > Upair, Dtilt > Fair, Dthrow>Upair I am not certain when they start to kill Bowser but I am guessing around....starting 90%....I'm uncertain, Zelda hits like a truck so I'm use to how early she kills haha. Fsmash also kills pretty early, move has a good amount of kill power so we like to do a Dtilt> bait the air dodge > Fsmash. Another thing is we like to bait out air dodges too, Dthrow > bait air dodge > fast fall Nair > teleport, Dthrow> air dodge > Upair, Dthrow> air dodge Bair/Fair"

Dia supports with:
"I can give some more specifics and elaborate on the information already there:

Footstool setups:  Zelda doesn't have any reliable footstool setups.  Although Bowser is more susceptible to them than other characters due to large hurtbox and lack of airspeed to drift after the footstool.

The only true footstool setup is reverse hit Up Tilt, which hits on frame 18 (so it's rather impractical).  Unteched Down Air at mid % is the most common footstool setup, but it's not really a thing if the opponent is prepared for it and techs it.  Everything else doesn't work (and resources/videos claiming that they work and are true are incorrect) as it only happens if the opponent doesn't do anything, or a setup that only works on 0 % and on a few characters.

Unteched Dair at ~67% leads to an Up Air KO setup off the top, but it's difficult to do and nearly nobody uses it.  Other than that, fully charged Forward Smash should not kill until a bit later than that I think.

Kill Confirms: Down Throw to Up Air is a true KO confirm from 98% - (147 - 161)%.  It is difficult to do though as the input is timed rather than buffered, and it's difficult to simutaneously follow DI as well.  Down Tilt to Up Air is also a true KO confirm that KOs ~5% later than Down Throw to Up Air and has a similar % window, but only if it is not DIed outwards.  Down Throw to Back Air is also a true confrim from 0% - 85%, and it should KO at ~80% from center stage.  However, it doesn't really work at well with rage and it's also difficult to confirm into (it is the trend with Zelda's KO confirms).

Down Tilt to Forward Air is not a thing versus Bowser because of Bowser's weight and floatiness.  Although like, the Bowser player can also choose to do nothing by not reacting in time.  This is the case for most of our Down Tilt confirms against Bowser.

Farore's Wind (elevator) is a Frame 8 move (active for a single frame move) and not to be feared unless the Zelda reads your DI or it is done close to the ledge where optimal DI (Down and Away) cannot save you.  Contrary to popular belief, it is impossible to react to DI as there isn't enough frames to do so.  In most cases, an Up Air setup from Zelda's Grab and Down Tilt KOs earlier.  However, due to Bowser's size, it the sweetspot is much more likely, so it could be a dangerous thing especally near the sides of the stage with closer side blastzones like Town or Smashville.  On Battlefield, Bowser should live forever.
Also Bowser is the only character that doesn't get hit by our Up Throw to Up Air combo/KO confirm as he's far too heavy and floaty."

Dia on DThrow:
"Down Throw sends at an angle of 100
behind Zelda a little bit, and if it is DIed outwards, Zelda cannot reach them with Up Air if she buffers it.
So we must dash, and if we mush dash we already used our buffer.
therefore the input is timed
On Bowser, we have 3 frames of error because he has a frame 4 Air Dodge"

Dia on Ledge 2-frame:
"And yea, we generally try to 2-frame with Down Tilt.  It's really good because it's one of the only Down Tilts in the game that lingers there for quite some time.  And yea, we'd generally use Forward Air (and it works longer as Down Tilt doesn't send them as high when they're hanging at the ledge), but we can also use the fear of Forward Air to read an Air Dodge to Down Air (but our Down Air isn't terribly strong).  There's also Nayru's, Phantom, Down Smash, and all of our aerials to 2-frame, but they're generally not used as often."
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Day 4: Stage Select

From the pool of tournament legal stages, what stage offers the optimal synergy for your character? Each side should discuss their worst stage(s), what a stage has to offer in the neutral or in an advantage state, and how a stage might affect their disadvantage state. Give as much detail as you can in your thoughts!

Bowser >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
EJ says:
"In my opinion bowser doesn't really have any bad stages, save a few MU dependent cases when Projectiles can be an issue. Platforms are pretty nice for bowser, he can cover them well with up tilt, up smash, and nair. Not to mention the threat he has against shielding enemies on plats with side b and down b. Lylat kinda screws with our SHAD but i enjoy the stage as it can screw with projectiles as well as the fact bowser's recovery is rather hard to "get lylated." FD is a double edged sword as, bowser can punish landing with ease, but he also has a lot of trouble landing forcing us to the ledge. For bowser's its really personal preference what stage they want to go to"

Zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Elder says:
"Stages that Zelda benefits from are those that have platforms. Namely Battlefield and Smashville. Battlefield's platforms allow Zelda to extend her combos and provide her more ground to land on and more landing options (to an extent). Another thing that BF's platforms allow Zelda is easy spacing for ledge cancels, so she has the opportunity to play some mindgames on her opponent.(edited)
Smashville's platform is a similar case in terms of providing more ground to land on, which can save her in some scenarios."
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Day 5: Review

Important resources from the Zelda Discord

DThrow -> UAir
https://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-finger-bangs-everyone.436530/

Zelda Guide (learn their optimal play)
http://zeldasmash.weebly.com/

Framedata from KuroganeHammer and Visualization
https://twitter.com/ElderLolz/status/855452578024493058
https://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitbox-visualization.434820/

DThrow -> UAir kill confirm chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zd5Ky1MR9ECFCtKRlfyQ77YNT9gAZ7GNXJkqZGVgmoI/edit#gid=511032032

Phantom
https://youtu.be/1RFa8ENSSAI

Footstool concepts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epLDZAr-P54

Advanced tech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdxr3sKythU

When Jab forces tumble
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/283385761020116993/288174417165549578/Zelda_Jab_to_Tumble.pdf

UAir forced tech
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/283385761020116993/288170797099515905/Zelda_Up-Throw_to_D-Air_lock.pdf

Art of Zelda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvllUJY6JI