Session Start: Fri Jul 24 12:01:29 2015
Session Ident: #fsf
03[12:01] * Now talking in #fsf
03[12:01] * Topic is 'Free Software Foundation | Member forum: https://www.fsf.org/associate/forum/ | FSF member? #fsf-members | Ops: johnsu01 (FSF staff), mattl | Join: https://fsf.org/jf |'
03[12:01] * Set by mattl!sid14229@gnu/mattl on Thu Mar 05 09:00:51 2015
[12:01] #fsf url is https://www.fsf.org
[12:01] <endomorphosis> http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:Civic
[12:01] <endomorphosis> sorry i got sidetracked
[12:02] <endomorphosis> I really wasn't expecting the MIT discussion
01[12:02] <s4t> https://cyber.law.harvard.edu/interactive/events/2014/11/bradsmith
01[12:02] <s4t> https://archive.is/QL5s9
[12:02] <+jgay> endomorphosis, somethign is broken with the page. It isn't editing with the form
[12:02] <+jgay> endomorphosis, did you edit source?
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[12:03] <endomorphosis> yes, is that incorrect?
[12:03] <+jgay> I so, that is a bad idea, because then it becomes incompatible with the rest of the wiki which is using semantic mediawiki to markup things in ways that allow our resources to be stored in structured data as well as wiki pages
[12:03] <endomorphosis> oh, okay.
[12:04] <+jgay> endomorphosis, could you spend a fw minutes to convert it over to using the form right now so I can include a link to it in my blog post?
01[12:04] <s4t> ^^^The Berkman Internet Society link above shows MS and Berkman are trying to set up a 'world internet govt' that shares censorship laws to make it easier on multinational corps
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[12:05] <+jgay> s4t, I met Brad Smith a while back. He is a good guy. We actually discussed some possible collaborations
[12:05] <+jgay> based on his work at Microsoft
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01[12:05] <s4t> If he is a good guy then why did her get busted pushing a false H1-B crisis with Brookings?
[12:05] <+jgay> I've been meaning to follow-up. Thanks for the reminder
[12:05] <endomorphosis> keep it on the topic of software freedom
01[12:06] <s4t> jgay - https://youtu.be/18gU4HSkW9Y?t=2h55m18s
01[12:06] <s4t> https://archive.is/yuN6A
[12:06] <+jgay> s4t, don't know anything about that. Just sharing my impressions from hanging out with him for a while. Not an indepth analysis of his character and person, just an impression
01[12:06] <s4t> thanks jgay
[12:06] <endomorphosis> so, do I create a page for each project, then link it correct?
[12:07] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you don't have to create a page for each project if there aren't already pages
[12:07] <+jgay> endomorphosis, we can assume that ones with redlinks need to be added and reviewed
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[12:09] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: So is Xorg free software, even though it's under MIT license? Sorry that I'm bringing up the MIT thing again but I'm a bit worried. :/
[12:09] <+jgay> endomorphosis, youll notice you can make page sections using the form, too
[12:10] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, don't be worried, the MIT discussion from earlier was unrelated to the license you are referring to
[12:10] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, there are no concerns
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[12:11] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: What does it relate to then?
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[12:11] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, and since 1983, the GNU project has been promoting the use of the X window system as free software
[12:11] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, no idea, but not the Expat license (which is commonly called the MIT license)
[12:11] <+jgay> and not to Xorg rlated stuff
[12:11] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, it was some internal trademark policy stuff of MIT unrelated to the use of the licenses we are discussing
[12:11] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: Ok. Sorry about that.
[12:12] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, no worries. Not your fault. The conversation was confusing and misleading.
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[12:12] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: One more question, I wonder what the FSF's office looks like. :P
[12:14] <yrk> RoundDuckMan: it's nice
[12:14] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, there are lots of pictures online. Here are some old ones I found someone posted: http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/office/2010/
[12:14] <yrk> RoundDuckMan: worth a visit
[12:15] <+jgay> the backroom no longer has cubicles and i tis a lot cleaner
[12:15] <TheBaconFromHell> hi
[12:15] <+jgay> So pictures 0 -- 6 are mostly accurate
[12:15] <endomorphosis> Open floor plan?
[12:15] <catpants> is that a painting of RMS as Mona Lisa?
[12:16] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: looks nice.
[12:16] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: so 0-6 are accurate?
[12:17] <endomorphosis> https://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/ezuckerman  https://www.media.mit.edu/people/ethanz
[12:17] <+jgay> we also added plants
[12:17] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: Yeah gotta need the greens, gnus love those. : P
[12:17] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, it looks more or less like this now: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f0/29/77/f029770febbbd76acd5611f5f7cf6de8.jpg
[12:17] <+jgay> yrk, agree?
[12:18] <endomorphosis> Global Voices' work has been supported by the MacArthur Foundation, Ford Foundation, Knight Foundation, Hivos, Open Society Institute as well as Google, Reuters and private donors. Ethan chairs Global Voices' global board of directors.
[12:18] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: lol.
[12:18] <yrk> jgay: too bad you can't see the diamond fountain
[12:18] <TheBaconFromHell> what?
[12:18] <+jgay> hehe
[12:18] <endomorphosis> So on the face of it it seems like he is on the up and up, but again when you have financial conflicts of interest, its hard to resist orders from up top.
[12:19] <+jgay> endomorphosis, where is the conflict of intrest?
[12:19] <endomorphosis> In this case the MacArthur foundation and Ford foundation, are the ones who are adovcating creating internet "safe spaces". Whereby even groups like TOR and EFF are relenting on free speech principals
[12:19] <TheBaconFromHell> whats the macarthur foundation?
[12:20] <endomorphosis> They are funding alot of this social unrest, because they're implementing TTP / TPIP
[12:20] <TheBaconFromHell> interesting
[12:20] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you are saying MacArthur is ssupporting TTP/TPIP? Do you have a link to confirm that?
[12:20] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: You need to write this up as a cohesive post.  You keep going on about free speech and CoC and stuff but its all disjointed and difficult to follow
[12:21] <endomorphosis> I found it in leaked emails to govenor kitzhaber in regards to "federalism 2.0"
[12:21] <TheBaconFromHell> source?
[12:21] <+jgay> Q_Continuum, yes that was my recommendation as well. I gave a nice outline even and a place to put it :-)
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[12:22] <TheBaconFromHell> I want to know whats going on right now, though... I dont want to wait for a post.
[12:22] <Q_Continuum> and your claims should include links explaining the importance and showing proof of the claims.
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01[12:22] <s4t> MacArthur foundation was also backing an initiative with disgraced senator Leland Yee and Common Sense Media co-founder Steyer to ban violent video games, even though their top researcher proved the rhetoric of the research wrong. They are a censorious foundation at heart whenever it advances their political agendas even when they know they are backing a lie.
01[12:22] <s4t> https://archive.is/oJVz6
[12:22] <TheBaconFromHell> what do you mean federalism 2.0
[12:22] <endomorphosis> I understand, there is alot of content for everyone to go through.
[12:23] <Q_Continuum> I'm working so I can't read all the random links he keeps posting looking for meaning :-D
[12:23] <+jgay> s4t, funding a separate organization is different then directly influencing trade agreements
[12:24] <+jgay> s4t, and we can link to WIkimedia Foundation for more money than that
01[12:24] <s4t> what do you mean j?
[12:25] <+jgay> o wait maybe macarthur didn't give money to wikimedia foundation
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[12:26] <+jgay> endomorphosis, it's not that htere is a lot of material. It is that you make unsubstantiated claims that read like you are simply trying to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
[12:26] <endomorphosis> http://pastebin.com/CjUJvj1z
[12:26] <endomorphosis> one of many emails
01[12:27] <s4t> jgay - Did the Berkman Internet society video not reveal they were trying to lock down the internet?
01[12:27] <s4t> And the head of MIT media is in Berkman Society
[12:27] <endomorphosis> this is coming from the current fbi investigation into pulic corruption in our state.
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[12:28] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you are not providing any actual information
[12:29] <+jgay> it is just mentions of macarthur from people how have dozens if not hundreds of different competing agendas tey are working on
[12:30] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you have not elevated it past FUD, which means ou have not yet crsossed the line from bad and ireresponsible to good and responsible reporting
[12:31] <calher> http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/office/2010/office-04.jpg -- What does the red thing say?
[12:31] <+jgay> please be responsible when making general claims about organizations many of us in this channel may work with.
[12:32] <endomorphosis> https://civic.mit.edu/blog/natematias/recent-articles-and-blog-posts-at-the-atlantic-and-microsoft-research
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[12:32] <endomorphosis> I would like to get your opinion on this
[12:33] <+jgay> endomorphosis, about nate or spcific things he has published?
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[12:34] <endomorphosis> what you think the post implies
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[12:35] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you are linking to a page that references several different things he has written recently
01[12:35] <s4t> Speaking of Nathan Matias https://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/jnmatias
[12:36] <+jgay> look if wea re going to start casually talking about people in our community I ask upfront that you be very respectful in how you approach this
[12:36] <endomorphosis> Im talking about the ideas, not the people
[12:37] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: I'm back, stupid phone and Crapcast internet, lol.
[12:37] <endomorphosis> Do you believe the internet is a safe space, and do you believe in collective punishment
[12:37] <Q_Continuum> RoundDuckMan: Comcast is great when it works...pray you never need support :-D
[12:37] <endomorphosis> (in the internet as a safe space)
06[12:37] * Q_Continuum has it at home as well
[12:37] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I see you are referring to one of hte articles mentioned on that page you linked to
[12:38] <RoundDuckMan> Q_Continuum: What would happen if the FSF was an ISP? :P
[12:38] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: You need to put this all into a cohesive document, this "thoughts on $LINK_TO_BIG_PAGE" is confusing
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[12:38] <endomorphosis> (am i dead), (is this heaven)
[12:39] <Q_Continuum> RoundDuckMan: Unlikely, the FSF is more of a policy org
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[12:39] <Q_Continuum> Xmission here in Utah is about the closest I could see being FSF-friendly
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[12:39] <Q_Continuum> They host a bunch of repos and are local and do a ton of support
[12:40] <+jgay> it needn't be cohesive. But if you are going to do half thoughts at least link to something with something closer to fully formed so we don't ahve to do guesswork
[12:40] <Q_Continuum> I've been been trolled by the owner on reddit when talking about them to someone else...and they have IRC where I've gotten personal support
[12:40] <Q_Continuum> semi-cohesive
01[12:40] <s4t> Will the FSF foundation stand up against the multi-national corps as they try to institute world-internet censorship laws, as was talked about by Brad Smith at Berkman?
[12:40] <RoundDuckMan> Q_Continuum: Nah, I'm just saying 'what if'.
[12:40] <+jgay> We aren' the Free Speculation Foundation after all
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[12:42] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: what, exactly, is wrong with that code of conduct? (i realize you were talking about it more than a few hours ago, but i didn't want to interrupt the Directory meeting)
01[12:43] <s4t> Brookings' biggest backer is Gates, and they are pushing for a global internet government as well. http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2015/04/29-global-governance-futures
[12:43] <Q_Continuum> RoundDuckMan: I don't even know.  THat's a whole different thought that I haven't persued because its unlikely and not worth the brain power
[12:43] <endomorphosis> In the Task Force report, Learner at the Center of a Networked World, also made public on Thursday, Honorary Co-Chairs Jeb Bush and Rosario Dawson argue a trusted online environment is necessary for effective learning. “Technology should revolve around the learner, not the other way around,” they wrote. “And the learner should possess the digital a
[12:43] <endomorphosis> ge literacy tools to use and understand the media in both the virtual and physical worlds.”
[12:43] <endomorphosis> The Aspen Institute report envisions a future of openness and innovation in education if America can shift away from a fear-based approach to using the Internet that unwittingly blocks access to valuable learning resources.
[12:43] <endomorphosis> “Just as the digital revolution changed many industries, its promise is now being realized in learning environments inside and outside schools,” said Connie Yowell, MacArthur’s Director of Education and a leading proponent of Connected Learning. “The Internet is a vital link, and innovative educators are helping learners create unique and personali
[12:43] <endomorphosis> zed learning pathways as they follow their interests online, connect to supportive peers and mentors, and become the creative makers and producers today’s economy rewards.
[12:44] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: Actually, why can't there be like multiple divisions of the FSF in the US, like FSF Midwest or FSF South or FSF west? :P
[12:44] <endomorphosis> (jus tthink of the children)
[12:44] <endomorphosis> (just think of the children)
[12:44] <Q_Continuum> RoundDuckMan: What would be the point?  Plus now you need to quadruple the funding too
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[12:45] <calher> None of this will work well. Schools are designed like prisons. Free thought and discovery are not encouraged.
[12:45] <endomorphosis> http://www.hastac.org/pages/fifth-digital-media-learning-competition-responds-aspen-report-citing-need-safe-open-internet
[12:45] <endomorphosis> "safe, and open" these are contradictions in terms
[12:46] <RoundDuckMan> Q_Continuum: True. Plus I was kinda partially being funny. Especially about the "FSF internet" joke. :P
[12:46] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I think Nate is doing good research in general.  I have not read all of the atlantic article that shows a part of that research, but, I assume it is along the lines of much of his other work, which I think provides  valuable academic perspective.
[12:46] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: (i'm referring to the code of coduct template you were talking about several hours ago)
[12:46] <[TheFlash]> *conduct
[12:47] <[TheFlash]> i don't see anything wrong with it, it's pretty much the same thing most free software projects already have
[12:47] <Q_Continuum> [TheFlash]: What endomorphosis thinks is wrong with that is what jgay and I were both asking for a semi-cohesive post somewhere on as its come in disjointed statements that have been difficult to follow
[12:47] <endomorphosis> Its often not the rules, but how they're applied.
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[12:48] <Q_Continuum> And rules are misapplied everywhere; what makes a code of conduct worse than any other rules?
[12:48] <endomorphosis> because people are specifically using the code of coduct only against those they disagree with on ideological lines.
[12:48] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: well i don't think you can solve that problem... for example, on most IRC channels on freenode, insults are only a bannable offense if the insulted person is an operator
[12:48] <Q_Continuum> Then they should be called out for their hypocracy.
[12:49] <Q_Continuum> Simple.
[12:49] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: (this channel and #gnu are exceptions though)
[12:49] <endomorphosis> and what if calling them out is considered harassment
[12:49] <+jgay> Wait!? Did someone do something wrong on the Internet?
[12:49] <Q_Continuum> [TheFlash]: Depends on the channel, often.
[12:49] <Q_Continuum> ^
[12:49] <+jgay> Well you have come to the right place. We shall fix it :-P
[12:49] <Q_Continuum> [TheFlash]: Smaller channels quite often have a better handle on it.  Larger ones I would agree that applies.
[12:50] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: Then call it out as unequal application of rules via the CoC.
[12:50] <endomorphosis> https://archive.is/w6EHz   Linux: You don't need Linus Torvalds. Kick him the fuck out. pic.twitter.com/2wnOfEANua
[12:50] <endomorphosis> When you look at your leader and he's a smug as fuck white dude telling everyone in your project to go get fucked and deal with his abuse
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[12:51] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: And that person is being abusive so we should kick them off the internet too.
[12:51] <endomorphosis> see, and that sort of "abuse" is now covered under the new MIT code of conduct
[12:51] <Q_Continuum> with their language
[12:51] <Q_Continuum> So they should exclude themselves for the same thing they're saying he's guilty of.
[12:51] <Q_Continuum> And just because 1 person claims something doesn't mean the world is ending
[12:51] <endomorphosis> sure, but do you think the rules about "abuse" and "harasssment" are applied equally
[12:52] <Q_Continuum> THere are still Neo-Nazis, does that mean we're all suffering from an attempt to recreate Nazi Germany?
[12:52] <Q_Continuum> They never are.
[12:52] <endomorphosis> I dont want to involve a COI, but I personally reported Randi Harper to OSCON for breaking the law and harassing people
[12:52] <+jgay> Q_Continuum, reign it in
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[12:52] <endomorphosis> specifically trying to shake down OSCON
[12:52] <endomorphosis> who do you think was banned?
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[12:52] <Q_Continuum> jgay: I was giving a very extreme example of individuals making extreme claims
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[12:52] <Q_Continuum> Sorry, should've used something a little more tame
[12:53] <endomorphosis> and now that same reasoning, is being put into trademark rules, which apply to software licenses
[12:53] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I am not sure what you are sayig. Are you saying Shanley's post is a good thing and Linus should be booted. Or are you trying to emphasize what Shanley is doing as being bad?
[12:54] <endomorphosis> So now if I have code with an MIT license, she can claim that my reports of legal impropriety with extorting OSCON are "abuse" and "harassment"
[12:54] <_Raiz> Can non-free printer drivers contain malicious features?
[12:54] <endomorphosis> WOW
[12:54] <pizzaiolo> _Raiz: https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots
[12:54] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I asked you before to stop making misleading remarks.
[12:54] <_Raiz> pizzaiolo, Thanks!
[12:54] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: This is why you need to write this up in a single document (somewhere) so its easier to follow and understand
[12:54] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: Linus is arrogant, and that has both good and bad consequences for linux
[12:54] <endomorphosis> okay, would you like citations then?
[12:55] <yrk> _Raiz: yes, because non-free software of any kind can contain harmful code
[12:55] <Q_Continuum> You link to something then make a disjointed statement
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[12:55] <Q_Continuum> endomorphosis: IRC isn't the best way to write a treatise
[12:55] <_Raiz> yrk, It will communicate with the printer not my machine...
[12:55] <calher> _Raiz: All printers contain malicious features, free or not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izMGMsIZK4U
[12:55] <Tuplanolla> I can't follow your train of through either, endomorphosis. Please write a coherent article that covers all of it.
[12:55] <+jgay> If osmeone has an Expat/MIT licnsed programs they distribute -- like the FSF! and GNU-- then , nothing you are saying applies.
[12:55] <yrk> _Raiz: how do you know?
[12:55] <endomorphosis> However I was kicked out of oscon regarding this.
[12:55] <endomorphosis> because she personally threatened me with assault, after she tried to shake down OSCON for those diversity dollars, I wonder if the code of conduct should include breaking the law.
[12:55] <endomorphosis> https://storify.com/endomorphosis/randi-oscon-shakedown
[12:55] <endomorphosis> https://archive.is/CD82P
[12:55] <endomorphosis> http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.275
[12:55] <endomorphosis> http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/646.090
[12:55] <endomorphosis> http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/646.070
[12:55] <endomorphosis> http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/30.860
[12:55] <_Raiz> I'm talking about that PPD files
[12:56] <_Raiz> How far can they take permissions?
[12:56] <calher> endomorphosis: Use a paste service, please.
[12:56] <endomorphosis> So now, if randi goes and reports me to the MIT trademark people, what happens to my projects
[12:56] <|amethyst> Is she your employee?
[12:56] <|amethyst> Harassment or Abuse: Every employee shall be treated with dignity and respect. No employee shall be
[12:56] <|amethyst> subject to any physical or sexual harassment or abuse. Licensees will not use or tolerate any form of corporal
[12:56] <yrk> _Raiz: that depends, on some systems ppd files are convered to a binary file
[12:56] <|amethyst> punishment.
[12:56] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: one of the good consequences i've noticed is that he keeps nonsense like kdbus out of the kernel
[12:56] <|amethyst> Sorry for the line breaks
[12:57] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: also he insists on everything being optional, including module loading, which is really helpful and respects the user's wishes more
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[13:01] <endomorphosis> Great example, Lets use Oculus Rift
[13:02] <endomorphosis> They likely need to use Xorg, and have also been accused of misogyny
[13:02] <_Raiz> yrk, What about the printers that presented in H-node?
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[13:03] <endomorphosis> http://qz.com/192874/is-the-oculus-rift-designed-to-be-sexist/
[13:03] <endomorphosis> Written by Dana Boyd of.... MIT
[13:03] <yrk> _Raiz: I certainly hope not. if you discover or suspect misfeatures in any of them we should deal with it ASAP
[13:04] <+jgay> endomorphosis, that dana boyd (she prefers lowercase) is actually really good. I read that
[13:04] <yrk> _Raiz: I'm no expert on printers. it is just that your original question "can non-free printer drivers contain malicious features" was easy to answer in general
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[13:04] <_Raiz> You don't use printers ._.?
[13:05] <+jgay> the key part of it is "What I found was startling (pdf). Although there was variability across the board, biological men were significantly more likely to prioritize motion parallax. Biological women relied more heavily on shape-from-shading. In other words, men are more likely to use the cues that 3D virtual reality systems relied on."
[13:05] <yrk> _Raiz: of course I do; but that doesn't make me an expert
[13:05] <endomorphosis> Thats because men have a larger central intraparietal sulcus due to evolution
[13:05] <endomorphosis> and shape from shading is present in 2D
[13:06] <yrk> _Raiz: I keep an old laserjet printer in the house for printing forms, but it stays disconnected until I need it
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[13:06] <endomorphosis> The point remains whether or not if she complains about it being sexist, whether or not it could impact their use of the Xorg MIT license
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[13:07] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I'm going to ban you soon
01[13:08] <s4t> top kek
01[13:08] <s4t> #triggered
[13:08] <+jgay> endomorphosis, please stop raisin gthis point abou tthe MIT license. It is wrong.
[13:08] <_Raiz> What's wrong with MIT?
[13:08] <+jgay> _Raiz, that is an unrelated discussion.
[13:08] <endomorphosis> You have yet to demonstrate its wrong
[13:09] <endomorphosis> shall I use formal logic proof to satisfy the objectivity
[13:09] <Tuplanolla> I have to repeat this since apparently it went unnoticed: I can't follow your train of through either, endomorphosis. Please write a coherent article that covers all of it.
[13:09] <yrk> endomorphosis: ... or just try to use some empathy instead. read the room, so to speak
[13:10] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: that's an interesting article
[13:10] <+jgay> endomorphosis, the license is a general template. Using some general smple permissive template license, whteher you call it MIT or Expat or whatever doesn't matter. It doesn't suddenly create a binding agreement between you and MIT on unrealted rights not covered by the license.
[13:10] <Tuplanolla> Also please use Coq if you decide to use formal logic, endomorphosis. I'd be delighted to check it.
[13:11] <+jgay> *unrelated
[13:11] <endomorphosis> It has nothing to do with an agreement between MIT on the copyright grounds, the MIT license is a viral license which requires the use of its trademark
[13:11] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: but the CAVE is/was definitely not sexist... never attribute to malice that which can be adequately attributed to stupidity :)
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[13:11] <endomorphosis> theflash agreed
[13:12] <endomorphosis> I refer to a sort of pathological altruism
[13:12] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you are talking about Xorg right?
[13:12] <endomorphosis> however, this has not been the first time Oculus has been accused of sexism
[13:13] <endomorphosis> for the sake of hypothesis, yes
[13:13] <JCtheDenthog> I say contact whatever org made the license to find out if the CoC is binding
[13:13] <+jgay> endomorphosis, if your aim is to just push some anti-feminist agenda, then please stop. We don't need trolling  on this topic here as I stated earlier.
[13:13] <JCtheDenthog> That's not what trolling is jgay
[13:13] <+jgay> endomorphosis, if you want to sersiously discuss concerns over some MIT tardemark policy and Xorgs licenses, then we can do that quickly and easily
01[13:13] <s4t> Egalitarian is not anti-feminist is it?
[13:14] <+jgay> s4t, whatever you want ot call it, you know what I'm talking about, so everyone just drop the topic
01[13:14] <s4t> wait so egalitarian is bad now? equal rights is bad to the FSF?
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01[13:14] <s4t> is this real life?
[13:14] <endomorphosis> lets just stick to the points
[13:15] <+jgay> yes. let's discuss Xorg
[13:15] <Karlton> or is it just fantasy?
[13:15] <endomorphosis> is there a problem with trademark enforcement and a viral license
[13:15] <+jgay> that is your concern, right?
[13:15] <+jgay> which is also at the heart of the GNU systm and so a concern of the FSF
[13:15] <+jgay> probaby more so than you personally, sice we are a much bigger target so to speak
[13:15] <+jgay> So here is X11's licenses: http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xorg-docs/License.html
[13:15] <+jgay> are those the licenses of the licensed work in question?
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[13:15] <JCtheDenthog> In any case I think contacting the organizations that control the licenses is the best way to get a certain answer
[13:16] <sebboh> Happy Friday, all.
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[13:16] <JCtheDenthog> Happy Pioneer Day, a state holiday my company doesn't give me off :(
[13:16] <endomorphosis> yes, and whether or not "code of conduct" policies can infringe on the rights of free software
[13:17] <endomorphosis> not even the users themselves, but of the software itself, as an agnostic thing
[13:17] <+jgay> endomorphosis, no, a separte code of conduct policy does not cover the works Iinked to.
[13:17] <+jgay> So are we done with that?
[13:18] <+jgay> have we cleared up any doubts or concerns you have around X?
[13:18] <endomorphosis> lets forget about the specifics, since you don't want to target people.
[13:18] <JCtheDenthog> I think what endomophosis is getting at is that if someone were to make a CoC directly or indirectly a part of a software project and or license then that would no longer be free software?
[13:18] <endomorphosis> or projects
[13:18] <+jgay> endomorphosis, no, if there are concerns, then lets be specific about teh software work we are concerned with
[13:18] <+jgay> not the people. just teh specific works in question
[13:19] <JCtheDenthog> As in, behavioral requirements and political litmus tests to be able to use and modify softwate would make ut notfree
[13:19] <endomorphosis> well, I dont want to be percieved as anti-feminist
[13:19] <+jgay> JCtheDenthog, endomorphosis, you are talking about soething like a contributors policy?
[13:19] <endomorphosis> just as you said
[13:19] <Karlton> wouldn't it be the same as an eula?
[13:19] <JCtheDenthog> That's part of it yes, jgay
[13:19] <JCtheDenthog> For me at least
[13:20] <endomorphosis> so in a philsophical sense, does having a trademark that requires a code of conduct, which is part of a viral license, make the software less free.
[13:20] <JCtheDenthog> Not sure if endo is on the same issue entirely
[13:20] <Q_Continuum> JCtheDenthog: Same here, I will be enjoying Pie&Beer day though
[13:20] <+jgay> JCtheDenthog, endomorphosis, then it might limit what you can do for submitting patches. If someone is running a particular repository and they have policies, then tey can decide whose works can be included however they wish in that repository they host.
[13:20] <+jgay> that is a general issue that is unrelated to CoC
[13:21] <+jgay> those are sometimes a reason to fork a project ... if the contributory agreements seem unfair or ask you to give up your rights upon your contributions in ways you find unfair
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[13:21] <endomorphosis> but if you want to fork the project, wouldn't you have to include the same license and same trademark?
[13:21] <|amethyst> what trademark?
[13:21] <endomorphosis> MIT
[13:21] <JCtheDenthog> But if the trademark itself requires adherence to a CoC, and the trademark is required by the license, that goes beyond a mere repo
[13:21] <|amethyst> Which license are we talking about?
[13:21] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: I thought this talk about MIT was solved. :/
[13:22] <|amethyst> I don't see anything about a trademark in the xorg or the expat license
[13:22] <|amethyst> I'm surprised you're complaining about the MIT trademark licensee code of conduct and not the requirement of 'Payment of a non-refundable $100 License Application Fee, payable to "Massachusetts Institute of Technology"', and a 7.5% royalty rate on net sales
01[13:22] <s4t> MIT itself it trademarked
[13:22] <+jgay> endomorphosis, if the MIT logo and MIT as a trademark are used in a way which infringes upon MIT's tardemarks then you would need to look to the tardemark agreements for that.
[13:22] <|amethyst> s4t:  And appears nowhere in the license
[13:23] <|amethyst> other than the copyright statement, which does not require a trademark license to reproduce
[13:23] <+jgay> endomorphosis, with the added caveat that simply using a trademark term does not mean you are infringing trademark or need permission in all cases
01[13:23] <s4t> But they could go after you legally if they wanted?
01[13:23] <s4t> and you would have to defend yourself in court?
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[13:24] <JCtheDenthog> Depends on how you use the trademarked phrase
[13:24] <+jgay> for example, one instance where MIT can not claim trademark infringement is if a license is simply called the MIT license. Tha towuld not be an infringement of the MIT license. For example, JQuery is not infringing on MIT's trademark on this page: https://jquery.org/license/
[13:24] <JCtheDenthog> Or image, or whateve4
[13:25] <+jgay> endomorphosis, does that clarify your questions and concerns around things called the "MIT license". Any terms and conditions on the use of MIT's tardemarks are not going to govern uses of the term "MIT license" such as how it is used here: https://jquery.org/license/
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01[13:25] <s4t> It seems so ambiguous that you are setting up projects who wish to maintain freedom by forking to be in a legal grey area
[13:25] <+jgay> We do however encourage people to call it the Expat license to avoid ambiguities created by MIT having other kinds of licenses
[13:26] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: It's also called Expat?
[13:26] <+jgay> s4t, endomorphosis, JCtheDenthog, please keep in mind that not even a hypothetical scenario has been presented where there is concern. There isn't even a hypothetical software project and software license in this discussion for which the concerns raised by endomorphosis apply
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[13:27] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#Expat>
[13:27] <endomorphosis> It hasn't applied, because the code of conduct requirement seems to be new
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[13:27] <|amethyst> endomorphosis:  the requirement to pay a $100 application fee and pay 7.5% royalties is not new
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[13:28] <endomorphosis> that i agree with, but the code of conduct is new
[13:28] <+jgay> endomorphosis, it is unrelated
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[13:28] <endomorphosis> and it seems to follow a long line of thought policing
[13:28] <+jgay> endomorphosis, you aren't saying if you work with MIT. You are saying if project has a copy of this license: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#Expat
[13:28] <Karlton> where is code of conduct in a license?
[13:28] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: I wonder where the Expat name from.
[13:28] <|amethyst> And nothing in the MIT license requires you to call it the MIT license anyway
[13:29] <RoundDuckMan> *they got
[13:29] <endomorphosis> including insinuations by jgay that linus be kicked out linux (foundation)
[13:29] <+jgay> endomorphosis, what???
[13:29] <+jgay> I asked you a question
[13:29] <JCtheDenthog> Let me pose a hypothetical then: new viral license is created that is fully GPL compatible with the exception that it also requires all people using the license to adhere to a CoC regarding harrassment and racial discrimination. Is such a license GPL compliant, and/or does it meet the 4 freedoms?
[13:29] <endomorphosis> "The MIT License is a free software license originating at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).[1] It is a permissive free software license, meaning that it permits reuse within proprietary software provided all copies of the licensed software include a copy of the MIT License terms and the copyright notice."
[13:29] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I simply asked you "<jgay> endomorphosis, I am not sure what you are sayig. Are you saying Shanley's post is a good thing and Linus should be booted. Or are you trying to emphasize what Shanley is doing as being bad?"
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[13:30] <|amethyst> endomorphosis:  the license terms do not contain the text "MIT"
[13:30] <+jgay> JCtheDenthog, that would not be a fre software license
[13:30] <[TheFlash]> JCtheDenthog: it probably isn't (IANAL, TINLA)
[13:30] <+jgay> endomorphosis, use of the MIT license and calling it th MIT licnse does not suddenly mean you are infringing upon MIT's trademark
01[13:30] <s4t> But they could sue and let the courts decide?
[13:31] <+jgay> endomorphosis, do you think every thime someone mentions something MIT made or produced or that came out of MIT that it enacts Layman act in the US?
[13:31] <JCtheDenthog> Ok good, that was my main question/concern in this. Though I also hope the FSF will avoid adopting any sort of CoC like that themselves ever
[13:31] <+jgay> It DOESN"T so get off of it. If you want a legal opinion in detail that applies to your specific and actual circumstances then you need a lawyer anyhow. But your hypotheticals are completely bogus.
[13:31] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: the license itself says "these terms"
[13:31] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: if i remember correctly
[13:31] <endomorphosis> "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software" (this) seems to be recursive
[13:32] <DrPete> such a license (requiring CoC compliance) wouldn't be entirely a new concept. consider for example http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html on the JSON license: "This license uses the Expat license as a base, but adds a clause mandating: “The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil.” This is a restriction on usage and thus conflicts with freedom 0. The restriction might be unenforcible, but we
[13:32] <DrPete> cannot presume that. Thus, the license is nonfree."
[13:32] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: what about the disclaimer?
[13:32] <+jgay> endomorphosis, dude, if you don't want teh opinion of the FSF's licensing & compliance manager directly on this matter, then you shouldn't be discussing it in this channel
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[13:33] <JCtheDenthog> Thanks DrPete
[13:33] <endomorphosis> While that may be true, I dont think its enforceable from a trademark perspective
[13:33] <+jgay> This is my job. I have a great team of people and the help of some o fthe best lawyers in the world to help us understand these issues. So when you dismiss my opinion on this matter, you are dismissing our opinion.
[13:34] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: the MIT license itself doesn't call specifically itself "the MIT license", it seems that OSI added that line
[13:34] <endomorphosis> so your opinion represents the opinion of the FSF?
[13:34] <[TheFlash]> *without the second "itself"
[13:34] <[TheFlash]> err...
[13:35] <[TheFlash]> **correction: swap "specifically" and "call"
[13:35] <+jgay> endomorphosis, on th matter of the question of whether use of the licensed referred to as the "MIT License" and references to that license by that name
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[13:35] <Karlton> okay so this is all hypothetical, nobody is actually calling CoC in a license as free
[13:35] <+jgay> and whther or not that infringes upon MIT's trademark of the ame MIT.
[13:36] <+jgay> The answer is no, that does not infringe upon the MIT trademark and you do not need to follwo any trademark license from MIT to make use of the license commonly referred to as the MIT LIcense for which the FSF calls teh Expat license (including the lsight variations). So long as specific trademark terms are not claimed by the company MIT or someone sublicnsed and permitted to enforce those terms, then you ahve nothing to worry about
[13:37] <+jgay> For tha tlast sentence, I mean, if the given instance of an Expat/MIT license actually has terms from MIT relating to tardemark, then those terms would apply to the work, so long as MIT can legally make those claims.
[13:38] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: in fact i've never seen any license list, other than OSI's, contain "The MIT license"
[13:38] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: it's either the X11 license or the Expat license
[13:38] <+jgay> It's a license template really. You take it an dmodify it with your own name and project name
[13:38] <endomorphosis> can the FSF request a commitment from MIT on these terms
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[13:38] <+jgay> sometimes people leave the term MIT in there. IT's OK
[13:38] <+jgay> endomorphosis, absolutely not
[13:39] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: So the MIT/X11/Expat license is not subject to any CoC from MIT?
[13:39] <yrk> RoundDuckMan: read the backlog
[13:39] <endomorphosis> why not?
[13:39] <[TheFlash]> RoundDuckMan: of course not, how could it be?
[13:39] <+jgay> endomorphosis, there is no merit to your concerns. I refuse to do anything that would imply we think your concernss have any merit or basis to be concerned.
[13:39] <endomorphosis> if you're asserting this indemnity, could the FSF request that indemnity from MIT
[13:40] <+jgay> Basically just becuas you don't understand somethign endomorphosis, doesn't mean the FSF should suddenly be concerned by your misunderstandings
[13:40] <RoundDuckMan> yrk: I did, just a bit OCD and wanting some extra confirmation. :P
[13:40] <endomorphosis> I don't think its a misunderstanding, I think its a change of policy, and a lot of assumptions
[13:40] <[TheFlash]> RoundDuckMan: nothing in the license says you have to respect any CoC from MIT
[13:41] <yrk> RoundDuckMan: basically, the entire thing is a weird fixation of endomorphosis, who _loves_ to type in irc
[13:41] <endomorphosis> but the MIT trademark says you have to
[13:41] <+jgay> endomorphosis, right, you have some personal confusion about how tardemark works and you want the FSF to put time into the matter?
[13:41] <+jgay> absolutely not
[13:41] <|amethyst> it is a change of policy to their trademark license.  Unless you are a trademark licensee there is no effect on you
[13:41] <[TheFlash]> RoundDuckMan: and i checked it again, just to be sure :P
[13:41] <+jgay> endomorphosis, start with what trademark law requires and then look to what teh trademark terms are. Don't start hte other way around!
[13:41] <RoundDuckMan> [TheFlash]: Ok. Just a bit OCD. :P
[13:41] <endomorphosis> how much are your billable hours, shall I make a donation to offset the expense?
[13:42] <+jgay> endomorphosis, we can provide you personally with information at a rate of $300/hr, that is our normal licensing ocnsulting fee.
[13:42] <endomorphosis> I think alot of this is based on assumptions, that have been largely speculative on your part, so I would like clarification
[13:42] <+jgay> for me and for donald. Other idividuals have different rates.
[13:42] <[TheFlash]> jgay: starting the other way around is sadly how corporations want users to look at EULAs :/
[13:42] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: lol
[13:42] <endomorphosis> I meant to say, for the FSF itself.
[13:43] <+jgay> endomorphosis, there is no speculation. I am working from anything resembling a factula statement or even hypothetical statement you have presented to me. I fyou have other questions you can email licensing@fsf.org gratis.
[13:43] <endomorphosis> not you as a private individual jgay
[13:43] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I am speaking on behalf of the FSF
[13:43] <+jgay> on this matter
[13:43] <+jgay> it is a narrow licensing matter and I can do that
[13:44] <endomorphosis> on the authority of legal counsel?
[13:44] <+jgay> endomorphosis, legal counsel can't grant authority.
[13:44] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: jgay is the Licensing and Compliance Manager @ FSF
[13:44] <endomorphosis> well, i know there is no such thing as "free lunch"
[13:44] <+jgay> endomorphosis, we have lawyers, thy work for us, not the other way around.
[13:44] <endomorphosis> okay, I didn't match his pseudonyms
[13:45] <+jgay> and we are not a law firm and I am not a lawyer, and even if I was, I am not giving you legal advice. I am sharing with you general legal information about trademark law and licensing that is well established and based on information from our legal counsel.
[13:45] <endomorphosis> okay, I understand. So who do I contact or pay to have the request for clairification sent to MIT
[13:46] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: you could try asking MIT yourself, i'm sure they'll find the time to explain to you that there are no hidden terms in the "MIT" (actually X11 or expat) license
[13:46] <+jgay> endomorphosis, what you have asked is thus. There is a license comonly referreed to as the MIT LIcense. The same license th FSF refers to as teh Expat license. You have asked if use of software that is under that license (in part or in whole) somehow means that the work has infringed upon MIT's trademarks.
[13:47] <+jgay> The answer is no. Use of a license named MIT License, even if that is what is written on the license itself, does not in itself infringe upon MIT's trademark or service mark claims to the term MIT.
[13:48] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: read this: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tm.htm#7
[13:48] <endomorphosis> I understand, I would feel better if there was a request for clarification from MIT.
[13:48] <NotimPortant> endomorphosis: you could make that request yourself
[13:49] <RoundDuckMan> endomorphosis: Ask them, they're probably going to say what jgay said.
[13:49] <NotimPortant> and given that jgay and others don't seem to be interested in making such a req themselves that's probably your best option
[13:49] <+jgay> endomorphosis, yes, or you could seek the help of qualified legal counsel for your specific circumstance. Such as the Software Freedom Law Center
[13:49] <endomorphosis> Again, I'm a nobody. But I have enough interest in this to pay for the labor involved.
[13:49] <NotimPortant> endomorphosis: even if you're a nobody MIT's trademark dept will likely still give a response
[13:50] <endomorphosis> and it would be nice to have it from the horses mouth as they say
[13:50] <+jgay> The FSF absolutely should not make this sort of request. It would be asinine for us to do. NObody elses time should be wasted on this strange misunderstanding.
[13:50] <NotimPortant> it'll take you 10 minutes and potentially save you $300
[13:50] <+jgay> He can send us $300 and I will reply with what I wrote above
[13:50] <+jgay> or he can save $300 and just read what I have already typed above
[13:50] <NotimPortant> and then if they give an answer that differes from what jgay said you can hire someone else
[13:51] <NotimPortant> and if they give an answer that matches what jgay said then it's not a concern
[13:51] <RoundDuckMan> endomorphosis: They'll listen to you, even if you're nobody. Heck you're talking to jgay, which is of the FSF. If you can talk to him you can talk to MIT.
[13:51] <+jgay> you don't have to hire SFLC if it is for a free software project
[13:51] <+jgay> they will probably reply to your question gratis and provide legal advice, if you have an actual legal situation
[13:52] <endomorphosis> I suppose I will ask them, but I will consider providing to the FSF, if they indeed care about protecting freedoms enough to make an inquiry on my behalf.
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[13:52] <+jgay> endomorphosis, we will not make an inquiry on your behalf
[13:53] <+jgay> endomorphosis, again, there is no merit to your request. It is based on ignorance. We do not share that ignorance. We are not going to pretend we do simply to ask MIT to clarify something for us for which we already know the answer.
[13:53] <endomorphosis> http://tlo.mit.edu/name
[13:54] <yrk> this is all fascinating. it's like watching a concerned citizen try to talk a crazy person down from a tree
[13:54] <NotimPortant> if anyone is running afoul of MIT's trademark stuff it would be OSI, not people using the "MIT" license
[13:55] <+jgay> yrk, a very low branch on a tree
[13:55] <NotimPortant> so it wouldn't apply to or affect people using the MIT license in projects
[13:55] <+jgay> yrk, good analogy!
[13:55] <yrk> jgay: but the crazy person insists that it's 100 feet high... which is the problem
[13:56] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: just calling the license "The MIT License" isn't trademark infringement IMO (but again, i'm not a lawyer)
[13:56] <NotimPortant> theflash: and even if it was that would be OSI's problem, not people using the license
[13:56] <[TheFlash]> endomorphosis: you mentioned MIT a bunch of times on this channel, aren't you worried MIT will sue you for it? :P
[13:57] <|amethyst> "MIT trademarks are licensed to others for use in connection with such products as T-shirts and hats; they are not generally licensed for use in connection with MIT intellectual property, software, patents, and copyrightable material." http://web.mit.edu/policies/12/12.3.html
[13:57] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: Well, as I heard from one guy, never argue with an idiot, or you'll stoop to their level. :P
[13:58] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, it isn't an argument.
[13:58] <yrk> [TheFlash]: yes, by MIT's crack team of IRC trademark enforcers. they are a grizzled bunch, working 12-hour shifts from a special bunker under the Charles
[13:58] <Q_Continuum> yrk: when in reality the branch is laying on the ground and its simply underfoot.
[13:59] <yrk> Q_Continuum: yes, I may have overstated the case
[13:59] <endomorphosis> I never said that
[13:59] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: oh, yeah. Sorry. :P
[13:59] <+jgay> He posted to reddit for peopel to come to this channel to discuss the matter. It makes sense for me to make very strong statements for all to read to make sure teh FSF position is well understood on this matter and that anyone raising fear, or creating uncertainty and doubt on it should be ignored.
[13:59] <endomorphosis> I just mentioned that MIT has been a bad acor in the past
[13:59] <endomorphosis> (aaron swartz)
[13:59] <+jgay> endomorphosis, I also made strong comments about that
[14:00] <+jgay> and I don't think MIT should be trusted. But this isn't a matter for which we need to worry about trust.
[14:00] <endomorphosis> and they seem intent on the internet being a "safe space"
[14:00] <NotimPortant> jgay: that's what brought me in here, I assumed it was something like what JCtheDenthog was asking about
[14:00] <endomorphosis> and have recently included the "code of conduct" in their trademark policy
[14:00] <yrk> but jgay's patience thus far has been phenomenal; I wouldn't have been able to keep the discourse civil for this long
[14:00] <+jgay> It is a simple matter of how laws work. If I walk across my living room, I can't get charged with jay walking, even if I don't trust the city I live in to enforce its laws correctly
[14:00] <+jgay> It's not a reasonable concern
02[14:00] * amelia_ (~amelia@unaffiliated/amelia/x-6378434) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:00] <endomorphosis> thats hyperbole
[14:01] <|amethyst> err
[14:01] <|amethyst> that code of conduct is not about making the internet a safe space
01[14:01] <s4t> its about making free software a safe space
[14:01] <NotimPortant> regardless endomorphosis, the only people MIT would even theoretically have grounds to bring a suit against in any of this is OSI
[14:01] <|amethyst> it is about MIT not letting their t-shirts be manufactured in sweatshops
[14:01] <+jgay> Maybe so. Do you know what else woudl be hyperbole? Saying that mere use of an MIT license in a work which is not called "MIT software" would somehow ifnringe upon trademarks of MIT.
[14:02] <NotimPortant> and even then it's very, very unlikely
[14:02] <NotimPortant> nothing for individual users of the "MIT" license to worry about
02[14:02] * endomorphosis (47edc3c7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.71.237.195.199) Quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
[14:02] <robmyers> [reads back] jgay's answer is definitive. game over.
[14:03] <JCtheDenthog> I'd like to apologize, I initially understood what this was all about
[14:03] <+jgay> OK. My wife and I have been trying to have an anniversary dinner for ovr a week now so I 'mgoing to wrap-up and go do that :-)
[14:03] <JCtheDenthog> Wanted to wait till he left to say that
[14:03] <JCtheDenthog> Since I seemed to be the only one on his side
[14:03] <Q_Continuum> jgay: Enjoy, and happy anniversary!
[14:04] <+jgay> Thanks all for a lively discussion. I did my best to keep it civil although I think i started to break a bit there at the end. It's been a long week :-)
[14:04] <+jgay> G'night
[14:04] <JCtheDenthog> Was under the impression the MIT license would actually require adherence to a CoC
[14:04] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: night.
[14:04] <JCtheDenthog> Gnight
[14:04] <Q_Continuum> jgay: And as Tuplanolla mentioned...quite a bit more patience than the rest of us would've had
[14:04] <Q_Continuum> Where was it posted on reddit anyhow?
06[14:05] * Q_Continuum is in here all the time
[14:05] <schumaml> a lot of patience is not necessarily a good thing - quick kickbans may be better for irc channels
[14:05] <RoundDuckMan> jgay: Wait a minute, I thought FSF closes at 6.
[14:05] <Q_Continuum> RoundDuckMan: Just because the office closes at 6PM doesn't mean everyone has to stay til then
[14:05] <|amethyst> Q_Continuum:  https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3efes7/join_the_free_software_foundation_on_irc_to/   which was de-listed from /r/programming
[14:06] <+jgay> RoundDuckMan, our hours of operationg are 10am to 4pm, and the range for employees to work (without needing an exception from management) is anytime between 8am to 6pm
[14:06] <RoundDuckMan> oh.
[14:06] <|amethyst> and https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3efbvj/ethics_join_the_free_software_foundation_on_irc/
[14:06] <Q_Continuum> Not surprised it got downvoted and/or delisted
[14:06] <JCtheDenthog> It was also posted on KotakuInAction
[14:06] <JCtheDenthog> Not sure if it's still up
02[14:06] * +jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)