Kerr

Here's a copy from chat:
(It's 12:30 AM, im not reformating it)

[17:21:43] <Kerr> people of #zk, hear ye, hear ye!
[17:21:51] <Kerr> (lol)
[17:22:17] <Kerr> I think that there is a bit of a possible balance discrepency that warrants a discussion
[17:22:32] <Kerr> Specifically, Grizzly VS Goliath
[17:24:03] <luckywaldo7> go on...
[17:24:29] <Kerr> So, first, their roles are the same essentially
[17:24:40] <Kerr> one has a very restrictive movetype
[17:24:56] <Kerr> while the other can use water+terrain almost as good as bots
[17:26:04] <Kerr> Grizzly: Cost 2000 - HP 10000 - Speed 1.6 - DPS 250 - Range 600
[17:27:10] <Kerr> Golly: Cost 2200(10% more) - HP 12000 (20% more) - Speed 2.0 - DPS 286 (+ 36 Flamethrower, IDK what fire damage is) - Range 450 (Flamethrower 280)
[17:27:52] <Kerr> Grizzly can outrange the Golly by a significant enough distance
[17:28:32] <Kerr> So in bumpy terrain (which slows down golly) it can skirmish the golly to some extent
[17:28:32] <geourge1337> anybody wana play small teams
[17:28:55] <Kerr> Also by taking advantage of anything but flat terrain, it can outmaneuver the golly
[17:29:10] <Kerr> (tested against bots, given)
[17:30:16] <Kerr> I do not belive the slight advantages given to the golly VS the grizzly warrant it's higher cost, primarily because of it's restrictive movetype
[17:31:15] <Kerr> Grizzly is more useful than golyl atm because of the terrain it can handle, and suffers no significant disadvantage(per cost) VS golly in the golly's limited "zone"
[17:32:29] <Kerr> I do not think an amphibous unit should be able to compare (for cost!) to it's land-restricted counterpart
[17:33:38] <Kerr> (For example, If i could build slightly less powerful amph scorcher for less cost, but it has ability to move on rougher terrain, it would supercede the scorcher as a resonable choice)
[17:34:13] <Kerr> And, i don't think that a unit that can handle terrain like a bot should compare with it's flatlands only counterpart by nearly that margin
[17:35:36] <Kerr> Now, Additionally, in a straight up battle, starting at point blank range (ignoring the skirmishing ability the  grizzly has because of it's longer range and better movetype) The goliath wins with 15% health remaining
[17:35:49] <Kerr> that is no micro or movement
[17:36:43] <Kerr> and the golliath gets the advantage of it's flamethrower, which would be difficult to close with in a restricted battlefield (the grizzly can run behind porc, or into rough terrain)
[17:37:23] <Kerr> a 5% advantage (per cost) for this restricted movetype is not enough
[17:37:40] <Kerr> and I think that that advantage disappears due to the grizly's range.
[17:37:46] <Kerr> Thoughts?
[17:39:38] <Kerr> luckywaldo7 ?
[17:41:02] <Kerr> Also, Could someone point me to the discussion that lead to the increase in goliath cost from 1900 to 2200
[17:44:13] <maackey> on the forums somewhere
[17:44:23] <maackey> zk forums*
[17:45:47] <luckywaldo7> it was a silly change
[17:45:53] <Kerr> I myself thought the goliath had it's niche well, because it was only good in very few circumstances
[17:46:02] <luckywaldo7> someone mentioned in passing that "sumo and gollie could swap costs"
[17:46:06] <Kerr> not it's not cost effective whencompared to other assaults
[17:46:10] <luckywaldo7> without any support or stats
[17:46:12] <luckywaldo7> and it was done
[17:46:26] <luckywaldo7> x_x
[17:46:51] <maackey> i think it was done because sumo wasn't used very much
[17:47:10] <Kerr> well, sumo isn't an assault
[17:47:10] <Kerr> it's a riot
[17:47:14] <Kerr> assault riot i guess, more riot than assault
[17:47:31] <Kerr> which fac is it?
[17:47:32] <maackey> the only times i see it are when assaulting ;)
[17:47:34] <maackey> jumpy
[17:47:39] <maackey> sumo jumps, remember?
[17:47:47] <Kerr> jumpies aren't supposed to outmatch tanks ...
[17:47:51] <Kerr> just double checking
[17:47:54] <Kerr> i dont use jumpies much
[17:48:24] <Kerr> too much micro for my internet
[17:48:25] <Kerr> about how long ago was this thread?
[17:49:05] <luckywaldo7> it was the sumo thread I think
[17:49:12] <maackey> http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/2160
[17:52:13] <Kerr> i dont see the reference, but i just skimmed
[17:52:26] <Kerr> nerfing golly to make sumo better is dumb...
[17:52:35] <Kerr> golly had a bare hold on it's niche as it was
[17:52:45] <Kerr> and i still think the grizzly is OP as it is
[17:53:01] <Kerr> regardless of the golly comparison
[17:54:02] <Rafal[0K]> i wrote in 5 points why gollie is better than sumo depite being cheaper
[17:54:14] <Rafal[0K]> someone said perhaps swap the costs
[17:54:21] <Rafal[0K]> and goolefrog did it
[17:55:04] <Kerr> where?
[17:55:04] <Kerr> i dont see you posting in the thread that was linked
[17:55:33] <Kerr> golliath should be better, it is flatlands only
[17:58:10] <Rafal[0K]> i posted in earlier thread
[17:58:16] <Rafal[0K]> about golly
[17:58:19] <maackey> yeah that thread doesn't seem to be the one
[17:58:32] <maackey> there are tons of dupe threads on the forums :(
[17:59:58] <luckywaldo7> also all the baw that develops from horrid unit control instead of actual balance
[18:04:10] <luckywaldo7> or even just bad strategy at all
[18:04:56] <luckywaldo7> gollie rushes werent good because gollie was op
[18:05:00] <luckywaldo7> that was 1900 metal
[18:05:10] <luckywaldo7> for that you can get 7 ravager
[18:05:16] <luckywaldo7> which will tear up more than 1 gollie
[18:05:34] <luckywaldo7> as long as you keep retreating your damaged ones for repair
[18:05:41] <luckywaldo7> a 7 ravager rush is much scarier
[18:08:28] <luckywaldo7> major difference is that 1 big unit is easier to micro than 7 smaller ones
[18:25:38] <Kerr> well
[18:25:43] <Kerr> i use them in big games
[18:26:06] <Kerr> where it's easier to micro 15 gollies than 150 ravangers
[18:26:17] <maackey> for a second i thought you said 7 reaper, luckywaldo7 :o
[18:26:22] <Shazzeh> 15 gollies is still pretty hard
[18:26:26] <Shazzeh> reclaim them and make a bantha imo
[18:26:26] <maackey> 7 reapers are definitely scary
[18:26:40] <Rafal[0K]> 7 ravager is easier to counter
[18:26:50] <Rafal[0K]> and doesn't pwn raiders so much
[18:27:02] <Shazzeh> mostly because reapers are WAY heavier than ravagers though
[18:27:12] <[Fx]Zero> wats a ravager
[18:27:12] <Shazzeh> equal cost they'd probably be about the same
[18:27:19] <Rafal[0K]> ravager = assault vehicle
[18:27:24] <maackey> heavy tank assault
[18:27:45] <maackey> reaper is light veh assault
[18:27:45] <Rafal[0K]> heavy tank assault is reaper
[18:27:48] <Rafal[0K]> lol wtf maackey