Blizz can go suck a d*ck

20:07 < Vaughan> http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/email-on-the-diablo-server/
20:07 < Vaughan> "I think people who expect features from games like Starcraft
                 1 to be in Starcraft 2 such as LAN may be experiencing Time
                 Lag. As you get older, it becomes more and more critical that
                 you fight Time Lag. Time Lag is your grandmother not using the
                 computer because a pen and paper will do. She is retro. She is
                 out of the loop."
20:08 < Vaughan> Complete nonsense.
20:11 < Vaughan> A lot of gamers just want to play a stable action RPG and are
                 hurt more by excessive online connectivity than they benefit
                 from it.
20:11 < Vaughan> "So what is the problem? There is an alternative to people
                 upset with Diablo 3?s online only issue: Torchlight 2.
                 Everyone should be satisfied then. So why is there so much
                 complaining on the Gaming Message Forums? ?The woman does
                 protest too much!?"
20:11 < Vaughan> DONE
20:13 < Vaughan> There is an alternative to malstorm being upset with
                 Nintendo's modern games: Nintendo's classic games. Everyone
                 should be satisfied then. So why is there so much complaining
                 on the Malstorm Blog? "The woman does protest too much!"
20:36 <+joehot> ?The woman does protest too much!?"
20:36 <+joehot> lost my shit
20:38 <%Steadfast> yeah
20:40 <%Steadfast> I feel as though Malstrom is dismissing the what players
                   think about the Diablo series (which he hasn't even played
                   before?), while he himself complains about the Super Mario
                   Bros series in a similar way...
20:44 < Vaughan> He said he never played Diablo 1 nor Diablo 2
20:45 < Vaughan> He doesn't understand that Diablo's nature is totally
                 different from WoW, and therefore the lack of offline single
                 player is a critical omission.
20:46 <%Steadfast> Agreed
20:46 < Vaughan> Yes, you can call out someone for suffering from Time Lag if
                 they complain that an MMO has no offline mode. But there's no
                 persistent world in an action RPG like Diablo. It made sense
                 to have offline back then and it makes sense to have it now.
20:47 <%Steadfast> 100% of my Diablo 1 playtime was offline, and so was ~95% of
                   my Diablo 2 playtime. And one never needed to do much in the
                   way of trading to advance in the game, either
20:47 < Vaughan> What if the next SMB game had cool persistent online features
                 but then axed offline single player because of it?
20:47 < Vaughan> That's what everyone's complaining about.
20:47 <%Steadfast> Yup
20:48 < Vaughan> Yes, Diablo 3's online mode is far far superior to Diablo 2's.
                 Doesn't excuse the lack of an offline mode.
20:48 < Vaughan> Which Ultima was it that Malstrom said came out slightly
                 before Diablo? Ultima 8?
20:49 < Vaughan> What if THAT game required an online connection just because
                 of social features and an auction house?
20:49 <%Steadfast> Might have been 7?
20:49 < Vaughan> btw, I'm convinced that the lack of offline features has more
                 to do with Blizzard pushing their social vision with
                 Battle.net and has less to do with the auction house
20:50 < Vaughan> the only reason they offered an offline campaign for SC2 was
                 that there's no way to play that campaign socially
20:50 <%Steadfast> It's probably both, but you could very well be correct
20:50 < Vaughan> but they still motivate you to play on your online account
                 through achievements and the Campaign Complete badges
20:51 < Vaughan> the auction house feels more like a response to existing
                 demand. Diablo 2 had tons of people buying stuff with real
                 money and it was very offline friendly
20:52 < Vaughan> blizzard stated that they didn't want players stuck with an
                 offline character and being forced to make a separate offline
                 character just to play along with friends
20:52 < Vaughan> separate online character*
20:53 < Vaughan> That's what makes me think it's about the social vision. SC2
                 doesn't have an auction house but still very much funnelled
                 players into being social butterflies.
20:54 <%Steadfast> I wouldn't know. I never bought SC2, as the lack of LAN
                   meant it was not for the LAN-parties I used to have with my
                   classmates
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21:06 <%Bofast> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=u93ah3IsnBE
22:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Actually
22:00 <%CoffeeZombie> In a funny twist
22:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Warcraft 3's and Diablo 2's online implementations were
                      more social than SC2's XD
22:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Which tends to leave people lonely
22:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Because the custom game system sucks ass
22:01 <%CoffeeZombie> There's no chatrooms as such
22:01 <%CoffeeZombie> And just discovering other people online is a hassle
22:01 <%CoffeeZombie> All that was needed for a highly social experience were
                      chatrooms and a currently open games list
22:02 <%CoffeeZombie> So yeah
22:03 <%CoffeeZombie> Not-social SC2
22:03 <%CoffeeZombie> That hates small LANs because you don't get all the fancy
                      treatment from Blizz and stuff
22:03 <%CoffeeZombie> And they take your ad money if the pot is too big
22:03 < Vaughan> <CoffeeZombie> There's no chatrooms as such
22:03 <%CoffeeZombie> (At which point it is probably not small anymore though)
22:03 < Vaughan> that's bullshit
22:03 <%CoffeeZombie> Not in the old sense as far as I know
22:04 < Vaughan> there are chat channels in sc2 and diablo 3, and they're just
                 as full of spam as the old ones were
22:04 < Vaughan> i still have to find a way to shut off the auto-join general
                 chat in Diablo 3
22:04 < Vaughan> because of all of the spammers
22:05 <%Bofast> I'm not sure if I ever get into any General Chat channel in D3,
                'cause I never see messages from people I'm not in-game with :/
22:05 <%Bofast> I pretty much only used WC3's multiplayer for TD games, and
                only with friends over LAN. With D2 I did play a little
                BattleNet with some people I met at a game-related forum, but
                still mostly LAN with friends. Online with strangers is rather
                boring, imo
22:06 < Vaughan> I played D2 mostly for online multiplayer with friends, but
                 there were a few times we LAN'd it up and played a mod.
22:07 < Vaughan> I couldn't push myself to finish D2 single player. I just
                 found it too boring.
22:07 < Vaughan> I bought D3 for the same reason I bought Left 4 Dead: because
                 I had friends that wanted to go through the game together
22:08 < Vaughan> If I wanted a single player game I would just hold out for
                 torchlight 2
22:09 <%Bofast> I never beat D2 Hell in single player, either, though I got a
                lot of characters to that point. Never felt it was necessary to
                enjoy the game, though, and I only beat it once on BattleNet
22:10 < Vaughan> D2 is ridiculous in single player because of all the damn
                 immunities
22:10 <%Bofast> On hell, occasionally
22:10 < Vaughan> sorry, yeah, I meant in hell
22:10 <%Bofast> yeah
22:11 < Vaughan> The D3 devs swore that even inferno would be solo-able. The
                 biggest obstacle people have come across is certain trait
                 combinations for elites and champions.
22:12 < Vaughan> I like how the random traits can make things very interesting,
                 but shit like "Health link Vampiric Shielding" just makes me
                 want to shut off the game
22:12 <%Bofast> I think it only happened to me twice, once with dual-immunes
                that matched my damage types and once with a physical immune
                when I played a summoner
22:13 < Vaughan> Immune Minions by itself is damn obnoxious
22:13 < Vaughan> I think they did that in D2 to encourage team play, but it was
                 such a hackish way to do it.
22:14 <%Bofast> I think it was about 4 days ago that a friend and I ran into
                some elite pack in that Act 1 Hell Spider Cavern in D3 that we
                had to go around, after both of us had died about 5 times each
                :P
22:14 < Vaughan> There's already a motivation to playing together in D3: you
                 and your fiends can trade loot amongst yourselves, which makes
                 farming way more efficient.
22:15 <%Bofast> I do think the fact that a boss can have Invulnerable minions
                is crap, though
22:15 < Vaughan> They should just remove the trait
22:15 < Vaughan> Unless the minions have drastically reduced speed and attack
                 power
22:16 <%Bofast> I seem to recall they had mostly the same traits as the boss,
                plus Invulnerable
22:16 <%Bofast> it was ridiculous
22:16 < Vaughan> shielding is pretty dumb too
22:16 < Vaughan> especially when minions can also shield
22:16 <%Bofast> Oh, agreed
22:17 < Vaughan> some other combos are borderline broken, but the game is
                 probably more exciting with them
22:17 <%Bofast> TotalBiscuit showed a game which might turn out to be
                interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuPwHYlrHCA
22:17 < Vaughan> like Walling Arcane/Desecrating
22:17 <%CoffeeZombie> http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/battle-net-2-0-threatens-the-success-of-diablo-3-opinion
22:19 < Vaughan> it's F2P
22:19 < Vaughan> with microtransactions
22:20 <%Bofast> Yeah, I know
22:20 < Vaughan> I just can't get excited over a game like that.
22:20 < Vaughan> I think you have to be online to play it as well.
22:22 <%Bofast> Yeah, it's online only. It's free, though, so I can live with
                that if it's good, like I did with Runescape for a while
22:24 <%Bofast> CoffeeZombie: Looks like that opinion piece had a couple of
                decent points, at least
22:25 < Vaughan> I'm also sick of the argument that D3 has no offline because
                 of D2's hacking problems. Do these people (Malstrom included)
                 not understand that offline D2 characters couldn't play on
                 Battle.net? That D2's problems had to do with the online
                 implementation itself?
22:26 <%Bofast> I think Malstrom is just clueless. As for other people, who
                knows?
22:27 < Vaughan> bnet 2 is a ghost town if that's what you choose to make it
22:29 < Vaughan> Custom games are completely broken though. That I agree with.
22:30 < Vaughan> SC2's custom game interface felt very much like a solution to
                 a problem no one had.
22:32 <%CoffeeZombie> Yup
22:33 < Vaughan> They announced that they plan to fix the mess in Heart of the
                 Swarm, mostly by making it more like SC1 and WC3.
22:34 <%Bofast> As much as I never liked Kerrigan being infested (though I
                suppose that was the whole point?), I'm not sure how they are
                gonna fix the story in Heart of the Swarm after turning her
                back :/
22:35 <%CoffeeZombie> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482
22:35 <%CoffeeZombie> It will be something pretty horrible methinks
22:37 < Vaughan> Oh god, the story
22:37 < Vaughan> It's going to be horrible
22:38 < Vaughan> Wings of Liberty had enough plot holes as it is (like how
                 Tychus was being monitored by Mengsk while taking part in a
                 rebellion against him).
22:40 <%CoffeeZombie> Yup
22:40 <%CoffeeZombie> Plus
22:40 <%CoffeeZombie> Poor zerg are victims of... something
22:40 <%CoffeeZombie> Dark space consciousness thing that seeks to devour all
                      yay!
22:41 <%Bofast> Don't remember much of that. The whole 'vision' of
                more-protoss-than-we-even-knew-existed-and-still-losing was
                kind of crap, too
22:41 <%CoffeeZombie> Corrupting them zelnaga experiment things whii
22:41 <%CoffeeZombie> Which is why Kerrigan was made because retcons are fun
22:41 <%Bofast> Well, Zerg are victims of the hybrid race that was in the bonus
                mission in BroodWar, right?
22:42 <%CoffeeZombie> Gotta retcon the good stuff into something godawfully
                      retarded
22:42 <%CoffeeZombie> Well no
22:42 <%CoffeeZombie> And yes
22:42 <%Bofast> But yeah, that had a lot of potential that ended up being
                wasted :P
22:43 <%CoffeeZombie> More like the hybrids are the servants of the Voice in
                      the Darkness
22:43 <%CoffeeZombie> Or something
22:43 <%CoffeeZombie> Was much cooler when Duran was an enigmatic something
                      trying to make the unholy hybrid things
22:43 <%CoffeeZombie> Also
22:43 <%Bofast> Oh, I guess someone must have behind Infested Duran being able
                to trick Kerrigan in the first place
22:43 <%CoffeeZombie> Why the hell aren't the Zerg perfect yet?
22:43 < Vaughan> zombie
22:43 < Vaughan> dr. narud is in sc2 you know?
22:44 <%CoffeeZombie> They have the purity of essence the xelnaga things sought
22:44 <%CoffeeZombie> And ate the goddamn Aiur
22:44 <%Bofast> CoffeeZombie: I'm sure it's for the reason of plot
22:44 <%CoffeeZombie> Yeah I know
22:44 <%CoffeeZombie> Bofast, undoubtedly
22:45 <%CoffeeZombie> Just saying Blizzard's plot writers have been churning
                      out crap recently
22:45 < Vaughan> the moebius foundation is still involved with xel naga
                 shenanigans
22:45 < Vaughan> it's still not nearly as unsettling as the Dark Origins
                 mission in brood war, mind you
22:46 < Vaughan> They tried doing something similar in SC2 with the Piercing
                 the Shroud mission but it came off as way too cheesy
22:46 <%Bofast> Well, nothing I've seen of SC2 has been unsettling in a good way
22:48 < Vaughan> The thing that bugs me most about SC2's story is how the
                 protoss dialog is just so dull and cliched. Even the voice
                 acting sounds really phony.
22:49 < Vaughan> I enjoyed most of the personalities on the Hyperion because
                 the whole space cowboys slant made them seem silly and more
                 human.
22:49 < Vaughan> I shudder to think what the characters in HotS and LotV will
                 be like.
22:49 <%Bofast> Raynor used to be kind of a space sheriff, so that was neat.
                Not so anymore :(
22:51 < Vaughan> They retconned him into being a bandit who happened to take up
                 a marshall job
22:51 < Vaughan> I'll admit that I like how they retconned in some hair,
                 because otherwise he'd be another bald space marine.
22:51 <%Bofast> Wasn't that just propaganda from Arcturus after he took over?
22:52 < Vaughan> No, he really was a bandit
22:52 < Vaughan> at least according to sc2
22:52 < Vaughan> tychus was a partner in crime
22:52 <%Bofast> Oh. I did not know that
22:52 < Vaughan> who took the heat for raynor
22:52 <%CoffeeZombie> Although dunno if any of this manages to beat, say, the
                      Draenei retcon
22:52 <%CoffeeZombie> Which not only slaughtered the lore
22:52 < Vaughan> what's that all about? I only know about the draenei from one
                 of the wc3 missions, and I don't remember much
22:53 <%CoffeeZombie> But also inserted INTERDIMENSIONAL SPACESHIPS into
                      Warcraft
22:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Well
22:53 <%CoffeeZombie> In WarCraft 3 era lore
22:53 <%CoffeeZombie> The Titans came to Azeroth, beat the Old Gods and
                      ímprisoned them within the planet
22:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Then they brought order to said planet
22:54 <%CoffeeZombie> And instated the Dragon Aspects and whatnot
22:54 <%CoffeeZombie> On another world, called Draenor, lived shamanistic Orcs
                      and human-like beings called Draenei
22:54 <%CoffeeZombie> One of the Titans, Sargeras, was tasked to scour evil
                      from the world or something to that effect
22:55 <%CoffeeZombie> His job essentially consisted of traveling the Twisting
                      Nether and finding stuff to smite
22:55 <%CoffeeZombie> Been long, so a bit fuzzy on his exact job description
22:55 <%CoffeeZombie> In one world he met the Eredar
22:56 <%CoffeeZombie> Scheming devils all, they managed to corrupt Sargeras who
                      was already troubled by all the evil he had seen, turning
                      him into the lord of the Burning Legion
22:56 <%CoffeeZombie> Then Legion went into Draenor and corrupted the Orcs and
                      won and staged the invasion on Azeroth and stuff
22:57 <%CoffeeZombie> With the assistance of Medivh who was possessed by
                      Sargeras because of his mother's previous (decidedly
                      unfriendly) encounter with the demon lord
22:57 <%CoffeeZombie> Good
22:57 <%CoffeeZombie> Enter World of Retconcraft
22:57 <%CoffeeZombie> Eredar didn't corrupt Sargeras
22:57 <%CoffeeZombie> Actually, Sargeras corrupted the Draenei
22:58 <%CoffeeZombie> Who turned into the Eredar
22:58 <%CoffeeZombie> (The Eredar are the critters Kil'jaeden and Archimonde
                      are, for example. The sorcerers and strategists of the
                      Legion)
22:58 <%CoffeeZombie> Some fled
22:58 <%CoffeeZombie> In inter fucking dimensional spaceships
22:58 <%CoffeeZombie> And landed into Azeroth
22:59 < Vaughan> holy shit
22:59 <%CoffeeZombie> Also
22:59 < Vaughan> my friend complained about how the WoW plot ruined the WC
                 universe by including space travel, but I had no idea
22:59 <%CoffeeZombie> At some point they whipped up creatures called the Naaru
                      that are the literal source of the power of the Holy
                      Light, the Humans' religion
22:59 <%CoffeeZombie> One such being being trapped was the explanation for the
                      Blood Elf Paladins
23:00 <%CoffeeZombie> And there's more
23:00 <%CoffeeZombie> A lot more
23:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Basically, at the end of the Frozen Throne
23:00 <%CoffeeZombie> Blizzard had an amazing fantasy setting in their hands
23:01 <%CoffeeZombie> Then WoW happened and killed it all because everything is
                      retarded and nothing makes any fucking sense anymore
23:02 <%CoffeeZombie> For example, WoW has physical portals into the Emerald
                      Dream, a mirror dimension where people go when they sleep
23:02 <%Bofast> I did see the whole "trapped Naaru" thing in WoW, but I was not
                clear on how terribly massive the ret-conning was
23:02 <%CoffeeZombie> It is a green-hued image of what the world would've been
                      had the intelligent races never appeared in the world
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> The big point of druidism in the old lore was to be able
                      to enter that dreamworld in a conscious state
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> Not in body
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> But just the spirit
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> And to travel faraway in that manner
23:03 < Vaughan> so the emerald dream is just another dumb prophecy or
                 something?
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> No
23:03 <%CoffeeZombie> It was the world of dreams
23:04 <%CoffeeZombie> Where druids entered in meditation
23:04 <%CoffeeZombie> And where the green dragonflight, guardians of said
                      place, lived halfway
23:04 <%CoffeeZombie> (Why they were ethereal in the first place)
23:04 <%CoffeeZombie> Again, they were special
23:04 <%CoffeeZombie> WoW has literal physical portals into the Dream
23:05 <%CoffeeZombie> Which just spits on basically everything that had been
                      established beforehand about the place
23:05 < Vaughan> I find it silly how WoW even needs a progressing story
23:05 < Vaughan> MMO's are one of the few genres that barely even need a
                 backstory
23:06 <%CoffeeZombie> WoW should've been an alternate timeline
23:06 <%CoffeeZombie> That way they can screw up whatever
23:06 <%CoffeeZombie> Now it's an abomination
23:07 <%CoffeeZombie> Another disatrously ridiculous thing
23:07 <%CoffeeZombie> You know how the Orcs were led by Thrall, an all around
                      sane and peace loving guy?
23:07 <%CoffeeZombie> Well, in Cataclysm Thrall has to retire because his
                      Shaman-ness is needed elsewhere
23:07 <%CoffeeZombie> He has a couple candidate followers
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> HEY LET'S APPOINT THIS COMPLETELY OPENLY WARMONGERING
                      DUDE WHO ALMOST MURDERED THE KING OF LORDAERON IN
                      NEGOTIATIONS
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> ...
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> Sire
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> *sure
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> Ab-so-lute-y
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> Makes sense
23:08 <%CoffeeZombie> Oh
23:09 <%CoffeeZombie> They also came up with brown orcs
23:09 <%CoffeeZombie> Who are apparently the ones who never drank demon blood
23:09 < Vaughan> um
23:09 <%CoffeeZombie> Said bloodthirsty warmonger is one of said brown orcs
23:09 < Vaughan> okay wait nm I was getting mixed up about something
23:12 <%Bofast> It seems Blizzard doesn't really care about previous lore
                anymore. Not just the WC3->WoW thing, but SC1->SC2 and some of
                the stuff from the D2->D3 transition :(
23:14 < Vaughan> The thing I hated most about D3's story is how the angels were
                 so laughably pathetic and weak-willed just because of a stupid
                 prophecy.
23:15 <%Bofast> Yeah
23:17 < Vaughan> The moment they gave up I knew it was going to be some dumb
                 "mankind > immortals" bullshit
23:19 <%Bofast> It's also been what, 20 years since the events in D2? Somehow,
                Cain is still alive, he can suddenly restore angelic swords
                that have broken for no reason and there are already
                individuals returning to full Nephalem strength, even though
                the Sin War trilogy states that Uldyssian almost destroyed
                Sanctuary because he became too powerful, too fast :P
23:20 <%Bofast> Not to mention the whole Black Soulstone retcon :/
23:21 < Vaughan> What about the black soulstone was retconned?
23:21 <%CoffeeZombie> I liked how the original d1 d2 feel was humans telling
                      BOTH the demons and the angels to GTFO from the mortal
                      world
23:22 <%Bofast> Well, maybe not retconned, but I mean that destroying Mephistos
                soulstone was said to be the end of him in D2, yet it isn't in
                D3
23:22 < Vaughan> oh that
23:23 < Vaughan> yeah for some reason andariel, duriel, and mephisto ended up
                 in that soulstone
23:23 < Vaughan> the game never explains that
23:24 < Vaughan> I was confused about why there were more than just belial and
                 azmodan in that stone
23:24 <%Bofast> Technically, Diablo's and Baal's soulstones were never shown to
                be destroyed in-game, so they could have been brought in, but
                not Mephisto
23:24 < Vaughan> that's way too big of an omission in the story
23:25 <%Bofast> Having Adria go around and "marking" their souls for transfer
                beforehand is also weird
23:26 <%Bofast> It's like they took random elements from the previous games and
                just mixed them up to make something "cool"
23:28 <%Bofast> But yeah, I would recommend reading the Sin War trilogy for the
                lore. It's supposedly canon
23:35 <%Bofast> I wonder if Torchlight 2 will fix Torchlight's lack of a "world
                feeling". It really needs that to compete
23:35 <%CoffeeZombie> Bback
23:35 <%CoffeeZombie> Continuing with the WoW atrocities
23:35 <%CoffeeZombie> http://pastebin.com/cLY0QAjx
23:36 <%CoffeeZombie> Summary of major factions in the world of WarCraft after
                      Frozen Throne
23:36 <%CoffeeZombie> Based on this, WoW makes the factions into:
23:36 <%CoffeeZombie> The Ugly: The Horde, the Forsaken
23:37 <%CoffeeZombie> The Pretty: Lordaeron, Theramore, Night Elves
23:37 <%CoffeeZombie> Zombie's poor mind: Blown
23:38 <%CoffeeZombie> Nope, it won't fix that
23:39 <%CoffeeZombie> The beginning is literally going around in a cartoony
                      world swinging a huge wrench (or firing a cannon) at rats
23:39 <%CoffeeZombie> At some point you get a magic sword that's named... Hasty
                      Sword
23:39 <%CoffeeZombie> (not even kidding)
23:39 <%CoffeeZombie> (It literally feels Munchkin Genericness: The game)
23:40 <%CoffeeZombie> So, to summarize: As-generic-as-possible world, slaying
                      rats with Hasty Sword
23:41 <%CoffeeZombie> With goddamn motherfucking awful classes that score a
                      full 10/10 on the Lame-o-Meter
23:42 <%Bofast> The Tauren were generally good guys before WoW, were they not?
23:45 <%Bofast> I guess many of the orcs were, too, actually
23:46 <%CoffeeZombie> Still are, really
23:46 <%CoffeeZombie> It's not like the Horde is suddenly omgevil
23:46 <%CoffeeZombie> Just that the way they did the factions made absolutely
                      no goddamn sense
23:49 <%Bofast> Well, the Horde still feels more like "the bad guys", but yeah
23:50 <%CoffeeZombie> They're more like the not-pretty guys
23:50 <%CoffeeZombie> Cause seriously
23:50 <%CoffeeZombie> We have shamanistic-y/druidsy Tauren things
23:50 <%CoffeeZombie> That are peaceful as hell
23:51 <%CoffeeZombie> Orcs who want to live in peace and be shamanistic and
                      stuff
23:51 <%CoffeeZombie> Plus some voodoo trolls who are a bit shady but generally
                      happy folk (ja, mon?)
23:51 <%CoffeeZombie> There IS antagonism left at the end of TFT
23:52 <%Bofast> They don't feel quite like that in WoW, though, at least not to
                me. In WC3, definitely
23:52 <%CoffeeZombie> And real threats to the world, like Deathwing
23:52 <%CoffeeZombie> Well
23:52 <%CoffeeZombie> In WoW
23:52 <%CoffeeZombie> We have Orc Warlock PCs
23:52 <%CoffeeZombie> See what I wrote about Orcs in the faction summary?
23:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Oops
23:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Was in the old version
23:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Basically
23:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Orcs when they came to their senses
23:53 <%CoffeeZombie> Banned necromancy and demon-related things on pain of
                      death
23:53 <%Bofast> yeah
23:54 <%Bofast> Oh well, I should sleep now. Talk to you guys later