<Boilerplate> You know Corbiu_Geisha, maybe perhaps if White Wolf games (the WoD setting) were more intersectional, maybe perhaps they could add "Asura" "Djinn" "Yōkai" as gamelines?
<Boilerplate> instead of classifying them as "Fae" "Demons" (which if you ever notice White Wolf games uses a western bases)
<Corbiu_Geisha> Gamlines?
<Corbiu_Geisha> Oh
<Corbiu_Geisha> Knowing White WOlf though
<Corbiu_Geisha> I'll prefer they just not touch them
<Corbiu_Geisha> At best, it's the Laibon
<Boilerplate> nor it's fans which I notice they're no better either.
<Corbiu_Geisha> I heard they're pretty good.... But the game book just had to have backgrund lore about how "THESE AFRICAN VAMPRIES WERE BADASSes KICKING ASSHOlE's ASSES BUt AFRICAN HUMANS WERE WEAK AND JUSt BOWED DOWN TO THE WHITIES"
<Corbiu_Geisha> Like hello
<Corbiu_Geisha> You think your white arses were so pristine that Africans just bowed down to you immediately?
<Corbiu_Geisha> How do you explain Ethiopia being the only African country not colonised?
<Boilerplate> Oh that's right, white people treat Africa as if a entire country not a contentiant
<Corbiu_Geisha> At worst, White Wolf releases a product where you are a ROmani sterotype and is named after a racist slur for Romani people
<Boilerplate> I originally thought WW get it's sources from Hollywood but then I realized they're really the same thing since they're only part of it.
<Corbiu_Geisha> Yep
<Boilerplate> Because they're all white dominated industries since WW entirely has white writers
<Boilerplate> or authors
<Boilerplate> and they're fans are also white as well
<Boilerplate> Because you probably have seen my encounters with them in the forums
<Boilerplate> Of course though it seems that ShadowNessance is no longer in existence
<Boilerplate> BTW I found something interesting about Mark Rein * Hagen the creator of the WoD: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?356338-RPG-History-Rein*Hagen-Brucato-and-design-culture
<Boilerplate> Blech it's probably irrelevant since white males are white males...although I did hear though that Mark Rein Hagen's father was a Baptist Minister though so that's where the christian basis comes from in his material
<Boilerplate> Of course apparently, according to this post: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?356338-RPG-History-Rein*Hagen-Brucato-and-design-culture&p=7883932#post7883932  It seems that the original concept of the WoD it was supposed to be worse than our world where it seems to aimed at teenagers exploring their angst at their deepest level to "feel better about themselves afterwords"
<Boilerplate> Basically it's like a 'self improvement' game for teenagers of the time
<Boilerplate> i.e. "This world is worse than your world so get over your angst"
<Boilerplate> or maybe rather "Explore your angst in this game here"
<Boilerplate> Or rather White Angst....
<Corbiu_Geisha> Eh, teenagers do have legit things to be angry about
<Boilerplate> Like for example, their parents, their school life, etc
<Boilerplate> or maybe something greater
<Boilerplate> Especially if one happens to be a PoC/Female/LGTB teenager...
<Boilerplate> Of course ironically that's also where the WoD fails as well due to the racism/christian basis/etc.
<Boilerplate> as if it was made for and by white people
<Boilerplate> and internalized people "I'm PoC/Female/LGTB/etc and I see no problem here"
<Boilerplate> well rather not because internalization is just another example of manipalation
<Corbiu_Geisha> You didn't forget that you're a white man, did you?
<Boilerplate> Yes
<Corbiu_Geisha> Because sometimes the way you speak is like
<Corbiu_Geisha> I don't know
<Corbiu_Geisha> like you're using phrases from elsewhere
<Boilerplate> Of course I can also bash myself and my own culture as well since I'm ashamed to be one but it's just who I end up being as though and it's nothing I can do.
<Corbiu_Geisha> No I mean like
<Corbiu_Geisha> You use phrases which would make sense for me to say but not you
<Boilerplate> Like for example? Well when I use terms like "PoC" and etc?
<Boilerplate> or something else?
<Corbiu_Geisha> More like when you talk about internalisation
<Boilerplate> Because I know what internalisation I think you told me what it was which is when marginalized groups ignore their own margizalinzations if I'm not mistaken.
<Corbiu_Geisha> Internalisation is really only something you talk about when it affects you
<Corbiu_Geisha> Yeah
<Corbiu_Geisha> But it wouldn't be approrpiate for you to criticise us for it
<Corbiu_Geisha> Just like
<Corbiu_Geisha> It wouldn't be appropriate for me to critcise,
<Corbiu_Geisha> Say
<Corbiu_Geisha> Vietnamese people for things about them that doesn't apply to me
<Boilerplate> Ah, So it doesn't effect me so I shouldn't talk about it
<Corbiu_Geisha> Well
<Corbiu_Geisha> Internalisation is a dialogue to have INTERNALLY
<Corbiu_Geisha> So
<Corbiu_Geisha> I don't mean that if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't bring it up
<Corbiu_Geisha> We would go nowhere with that
<Corbiu_Geisha> Ah
<Corbiu_Geisha> Fuck
<Corbiu_Geisha> I'll just start from scratch
<Corbiu_Geisha> Okay
<Corbiu_Geisha> I didn't mean that you shouldn't talk about things that don't affect you
<Corbiu_Geisha> I'm just talking about knowing boundaries
<Corbiu_Geisha> For example, if I talk about how Chinese people have internalised racism that we let white people get away with things. That's within my boundary
<Corbiu_Geisha> But if I say that Chinese-Americans internalise American culture or wahtever, that's outside my boundary
<Corbiu_Geisha> And I would probably be making a grossly inaccurate statement
<Corbiu_Geisha> And even if I'm correct
<Corbiu_Geisha> I am an outsider
<Corbiu_Geisha> I may know the facts, but I may not have an understanding
<Boilerplate> It means that outsiders should shut their traps and focus on what effects them.
<Corbiu_Geisha> The ability to define yourselves is important in anti-oppression, and just because it's someone of your own race but with a different socio-cultural background doesn't mean it's any less intrusive than if it's white people
<Corbiu_Geisha> Ah, about that
<Corbiu_Geisha> On a general level, it is important to talk about others though
<Corbiu_Geisha> Say
<Corbiu_Geisha> Most people in the world have never seen a black person in a physical space
<Corbiu_Geisha> Therefore, we are predisposed to relying on media sterotypes
<Corbiu_Geisha> And by talking about how that's a problem, we're helping
<Corbiu_Geisha> For example
<Corbiu_Geisha> "It is disrespectful to refer to a black person by that word."
<Corbiu_Geisha> That's helping
<Corbiu_Geisha> "Black people who use the n-word are internalising anti-blackness" That's being an intrusive fuck
<Corbiu_Geisha> You get it?
<Boilerplate> It all makes sense now
<Corbiu_Geisha> Also, if you're talking to someone who internalised their own oppression
<Corbiu_Geisha> Don't argue with them
<Corbiu_Geisha> Because undoing internalisation is something to be done within
<Corbiu_Geisha> The idae is that for a group to gain power
<Corbiu_Geisha> They must have the ability to define themselves
<Corbiu_Geisha> For outsiders to do the defining doesn't change the power dynamic
<Boilerplate> Of course what about 'debating' with racists though and what if they bring up "How can black people call each other the n-word but we can't?, we're oppressed! Because freedom means we can say what we want and suffer the consequence"
<Boilerplate> *not suffer the consequence
<Corbiu_Geisha> You're not intruding on an internal issue
<Corbiu_Geisha> THe key here is to see where the power dynamic lies and where it shifts
<Boilerplate> Ah...I guess it means it's different when debating with racists while actual someone who internalizes their own oppression can't be talked to, it's up to them to figure it own on their own.
<Corbiu_Geisha> Well, not on their own, but with people who share it with them
<Corbiu_Geisha> But you get the point
<Corbiu_Geisha> Basically
<Corbiu_Geisha> Just remember the INTERNAL in INTERNALISATION
<Boilerplate> Well whose the people who share it with them? You mean people within their own spaces and not white people 'guiding them' if that's what you mean.