Movepool Discussion

Aurist - February 16th, 2014, 16:42
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Fairy/Electric
(intended for) OU
Base Stats: 99/55/135/110/70/71
BST: 540
Ability 1: Levitate
Ability 2: Unaware
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Discuss the movepool of CAP 1!

Discuss what moves you definitely think CAP 1 should have and should not have. In particular, the recovery options it will have, coverage aside from STABs that it will have, as well as support, utility, and status moves.

There are definitely some moves that are very debatable, especially Volt Switch, so it'd be good to see some discussion on the merits and problems behind those. It could also be discussed whether it should have any access to boosting moves, like Calm Mind for example.

Also discuss the egg group or egg groups it should be in.

After this we will have some time for people to submit their own stat spread, which will then go into voting.

Gogogogogogo
Edit Report
 Piexplode
Piexplode - February 16th, 2014, 16:46
I think it should definitely have resttalk as the minimum of its recovery options.. In terms of recovery though the list of different recovery moves is kinda like:
Aqua ring/Ingrain
Rest
Recover/Roost
Pain Split
Wish
The first is definitely nonsensical to have [though xerneas gets ingrain, either way it's a poor option]
Rest it should definitely have
I guess the discussion centers around Recover y/n, or possibly wish? Wish certainly makes it less of a wall and more of a cleric, but if recover is too good for it and wish isn't, it could be an option.
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 Finchinator
Finchinator - February 16th, 2014, 17:02
Volt Switch seems to be an obvious move that'll fit.

Of course, the likes of Toxic and Thunder Wave will sneak into its move-pool.

I believe it should have some sort of recovery, either Wish, Soft-boiled, Recover, Moonlight, or...[insert other recovery move here that isn't Pain Split as it has nice (enough) base HP].

Moonblast is a good fairy type STAB special attack to have, of course. It can also learn some support attacks, like Knock Off, but I don't think that'd really fit in so I'll give it a mention but not advise it.

What are people's thoughts on giving it supportish / niche (idek, lol) moves like Magic Coat, Counter (and Mirror Coat), Reflect (and Light Screen), and Magnet Rise, just to strengthen it's move-pool and give it some cool 'other option'ish moves?
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 Aurist
Aurist - February 16th, 2014, 17:16
About its recovery, I feel keen on a simple recovery move like Soft-Boiled or Recover. I'm not keen on Wish because I feel it would make CAP 1 too predictable, force it to rely on protect somewhat (probably fine with Unaware) and lend it Wish passing capability which I don't feel like it should have. I like the idea of it walling and having a small amount of support-y moves, including the ones Finch listed (I especially think Magic Coat and Magnet Rise could be cool niche moves on it) as well as more obvious things like Thunder Wave or Heal Bell.

About Volt Switch, I haven't made my mind up just yet. We want this thing to be good in OU which is an extremely momentum based metagame. While Unaware is definitely to some degree a momentum halter for your opponent, simply being a wall that can 2/3hko opponents is often not enough to stand out in the huge crowd. Having the ability to Volt Switch out on an opponent could allow it to stand out alongside its very high bulk. I definitely think if people want to have Volt Switch or Wish, it should be one or the other and giving it both would be too many awesome tools at once. I'm warming up to Volt Switch somewhat.

One thing I'd really like to discuss is (usable) coverage moves. Stuff like Flamethower, Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, etc. I haven't thought it over too much but I do want to discuss exactly what we want it to beat and how it would beat those things, what we think it shouldn't really beat, what it should maybe have a small chance to beat or an even but not guaranteed chance to beat etc. Like how well do we want it to take on Steel types? etc.

About Egg groups, feels like it should definitely be in Fairy group. Any others, I have no idea.
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 Piexplode
Piexplode - February 16th, 2014, 18:31
I'd rather volt switch + recover, no wish.
Fairy egg group yes definitely.
Ok I think we should come up with a list of standard OU mons that can counter it if it has no coverage and look at what tools it needs to beat that so that it still has some checks and counters left but generally few that are on sort of HO set ups and more on balance/stall. Barrier is a move that would be interesting to put into its Movepool maybe although its usage might well be niche at best. Thoughts about sticking baton pass in there though? I think it should have relatively few set-up moves, however.
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 Cirno
Cirno - February 16th, 2014, 18:45
Bold = Very likely, Italics = possible

TM Move
01 Hone Claws
02 Dragon Claw
03 Psyshock
04 Calm Mind
05 Roar
06 Toxic
07 Hail
08 Bulk Up
09 Venoshock
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
13 Ice Beam
14 Blizzard
15 Hyper Beam
16 Light Screen
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
19 Roost
20 Safeguard
21 Frustration
22 Solar Beam
23 Smack Down
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
26 Earthquake
27 Return
28 Dig
29 Psychic
30 Shadow Ball
31 Brick Break
32 Double Team
33 Reflect
34 Sludge Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
37 Sandstorm
38 Fire Blast
39 Rock Tomb
40 Aerial Ace
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Flame Charge
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
47 Low Sweep
48 Round
49 Echoed Voice
50 Overheat
51 Steel Wing
52 Focus Blast
53 Energy Ball
54 False Swipe
55 Scald
56 Fling
57 Charge Beam
58 Sky Drop
59 Incinerate
60 Quash
61 Will-O-Wisp
62 Acrobatics
63 Embargo
64 Explosion
65 Shadow Claw
66 Payback
67 Retaliate
68 Giga Impact
69 Rock Polish
70 Flash
71 Stone Edge
72 Volt Switch
73 Thunder Wave
74 Gyro Ball
75 Swords Dance
76 Struggle Bug
77 Psych Up
78 Bulldoze
79 Frost Breath
80 Rock Slide
81 X-Scissor
82 Dragon Tail
83 Infestation
84 Poison Jab
85 Dream Eater
86 Grass Knot
87 Swagger
88 Sleep Talk
89 U-turn
90 Substitute
91 Flash Cannon
92 Trick Room
93 Wild Charge
94 Rock Smash
95 Snarl
96 Nature Power
97 Dark Pulse
98 Power-Up Punch
99 Dazzling Gleam
100 Confide

HM Move
01 Cut
02 Fly
03 Surf
04 Strength
05 Waterfall

These are not based on whether the move is useful, but whether it fits the Pokemon in question.
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 User Name
User Name - February 17th, 2014, 10:31
For simple recovery moves, Rioku's art prob goes best with Roost or Softboiled (or maybe even Moonlight/Morning Sun, if you want to go there), mine goes with Roost, Stofil's...I dunno, but probably Roost, and Pichi's...Pichi's doesn't lend itself well to the idea of a recovery move, but it's probably closest to Roost.

Would like to float the ideas of Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss. For the record, Draining Kiss would definitely not work on my art, but it should be justifiable on the other 3. Parabolic Charge should work for all of them, though.
Stofil's art could support Cotton Guard and Cotton Spore, even if it isn't actually a very useful move.
Kiss moves should prob all be considered, and Powder/Spore moves would be an interesting consideration for Stofil's art.

I might be able to redraw my stuff to make it more compatible with the Kiss moves, but I doubt I will have time for that in the near future (and in any case I've never enjoyed redrawing my stuff). Movepool-wise, it should probably share several common elements with Sigilyph. Some moves that stand out are Cosmic Power, Ice Beam and other basic special TMs (eg Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse), Trick Room, and Trick.

For Egg groups, Fairy would seem to be a given--but not necessarily, as not all Fairy-types are in the Fairy Egg group. The exceptions are the Mime Jr. chain, the Ralts chain, Sylveon, and Carbink. Rioku's, Stofil's, and Pichi's art fit into Fairy fairly easily, though Rioku might take a bit of justification. Mine CAN be put into Fairy, but it would be a bit of a shoehorn.
Possible groups are, with asterisks representing "stretch" groups:
Rioku: Fairy, Flying, Bug*, Field* (not entirely sure what Rioku's art is supposed to be)
Mine: Fairy*, Flying, Mineral, Amorphous*, Monster
Stofil: Field, Fairy, Flying*, Mineral*, Monster (hey, Ampharos is in it, sheep magnets should too)
Pichi: Field, Fairy, Bug*, Mineral, Human-like, Amorphous*

This has been an artist's contribution :P
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 Aurist
Aurist - February 19th, 2014, 22:45
OK I'd like to submit my first draft in for the movepool. I'm not gonna call this final submission because I'd like to see what people think first. Also because it could easily change depending on the art design.

Competitive-relevant moves in Bold. Italicized start moves are only obtained through move relearner.

Level moves:

START	Zap Cannon
START	Magnet Rise
START	Misty Terrain
START	Nuzzle
START	Charm
8	Sweet Kiss
12	Thundershock
15	Disarming Voice
18	Protect
21	Draining Kiss
24	Charge
27	Thunder Wave
31	Magic Coat
35	Hyper Voice
39	Heal Bell
43	Thunderbolt
46	Magnet Rise
49	Play Rough
54	Zap Cannon
57	Psyshock

Tm/HMs:

Calm Mind|Rest
Toxic|Attract
Hidden Power|False Swipe
Sunny Day|Round
Hyper Beam|Echoed Voice
Light Screen|Fling
Protect|Charge Beam
Rain Dance|Retaliate
Safeguard|Giga Impact
Frustration|Flash
Thunderbolt|Volt Switch
Thunder|Thunder Wave
Return|Dream Eater
Psychic|Grass Knot
Psyshock|Swagger
Shadow Ball|Sleep Talk
Double Team|Substitute
Reflect|Wild Charge
Flamethrower|Nature Power
Aerial Ace|Dazzling Gleam
Torment|Confide
Facade

Egg moves:

Volt Tackle	 Pikachu, Raichu
Parabolic Charge	Dedenne
Entrainment	Dedenne, Minun, Plusle
Soft-Boiled	Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Clefairy, Togetic, Togekiss
Discharge	Dedenne, Minun, Pikachu, Plusle, Pachirisu
Eerie Impulse	Dedenne
Fake Tears	Azumarill, Breloom, Clefable, Clefairy, Cottonee, Delcatty, Froslass, Granbull, Jigglypuff, Marill, Mawile, Minun, Pachirisu, Plusle, Shroomish, Skitty, Slurpuff, Snorunt, Swirlix, Whimsicott
Explosion	Glalie

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Notes:

This means that the main reliable recovery option of CAP 1 is Soft-Boiled.

It has a small amount of interesting coverage options without getting superpowered moves. Shadow Ball, Psyshock and Flamethrower could all see use but would not be guaranteed to just totally beat all of its potential counters.

I wanted to give it a few niche tools and moves like Magic Coat, Dual Screens and Explosion, so that it's not just a one-trick pony. I'm hoping with this it has enough to set it apart from other walls that also have a lot of tools.

One of the main things I'm concerned about is Moonblast. I'm really not sure if I want it to have it - the chance to drop the SAtk I'm scared may cause it to too easily beat common special attackers. I'm hoping Dazzling Gleam could be enough but I'm not sure, what do you guys think?

I'm hoping you guys give me some feeback on what you like and don't like in my movepool :3
Edit Report
 Rioku
Rioku - February 20th, 2014, 05:04
I'm seeing a definite need for Volt Switch and Thunderbolt, as previously mentioned. I also think that Charge Beam, Disarming Voice, and Dazzling Gleam would be good moves it could use that would fit. I do not think it should have Moonblast, it just doesn't feel right on it to me. Trick Room wouldn't be to bad of a choice to give it, since it is found on other fairy types, and it would be a great TR support mon. As a flyer via levitate, Roost may be an option, and, seeing as its hard to wall in general without recovery, let alone in OU, a practical must. It should probably have Psyshock as most fairy types do.
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 Piexplode
Piexplode - February 20th, 2014, 11:07
Note that nuzzle>thunder wave, so you should have bolded that.
I think that this will become clearer once we've decided on the going artwork.
Trick Room sounds good, and Recover/Roost/Soft boiled depending on the artwork souns sensible.
Also a query how do we decide altogether upon a final list?
PichiTheShinyPichu - February 20th, 2014, 23:51
I'm agreeing with many of these moves, but like Piexplode said, until we have decided on artwork (and possibly more flavor?), it might just come down to agreeing with some of the basics. Some basic moves would involve:

-Thunderbolt
-Thunder Wave/Nuzzle(?)
-Dazzling Gleam
-Draining Kiss
-Recover/Roost
-Volt Switch

Very basic. Reflect/Light Screen aren't bad at all, as many fairies and electric-types get Light Screen, while a few others also get Reflect. It just seems natural that way, and gives the option for bringing dual-screens support. Although our CAP isn't a flying-type, our artwork designs fit Roost very well, and still serves as recovery. As a wall, it will need either Recover/Roost/Softboiled anyway if this thing is to stay OU, otherwise risk dropping a tier or literally scraping the bottom of the barrel. Draining Kiss, while a sub-par option for recovery with 50 Base Power, could still see use.

In terms of coverage, there's Grass Knot as the first thing in mind. A lot of things get it, and it's not an exaggeration to give our CAP that move. I could go with Ice Beam, but that may be pushing it. Shadow Ball with fairy-type moves is still nice. Moonblast just doesn't seem fitting to any of our current designs (not to mention not every fairy gets it), and I agree with Aurist's concerns with it. It's a chance, but might be too risky to add to become too powerful.

But those are my thoughts.