Direnni bullshit

Alright so, my ideas for how the direnni came to reclaim high rock
come from that one daggerfall guide book, Daggerfall Chronicles
because its the only source I've ever seen that ever actually mentioned what the fuck they did
So like, first throughout the merethic, altmer colonize the peninsula, over hundreds of years.  They form a hegemony of city states that conquer and subjugate the native nedic peoples.  This hegemony spreads out until it occupies the entirety of the peninsula, and as well as the northern coasts of the otherwise impenetrable deadlands
Somewhere during this the Direnni become a prominent, but not the foremost, clan among this hegemony, claiming the isle of Balfiera.  Or maybe they claim that later.  It's not important and frankly irrelevant.  The Altmer rule over the near entirety of the region, control a second class of conquered human slaves, though its not quite the same kind of brutal control as the one maintained by the Ayleids over their conquered peoples
One of the personal ideas I had about the Altmer here during this period, and you'd have to tell me if there's anything that would absolutely fly in the face of this mod, or if you all aren't a fan of it, is that nearly all of them weren't just colonists but religious dissident pseudo-exiles of one form or another.  I have this whole impression that the ancient altmer approach to dissident culturo-religious movements was to direct them to settle into colonies on the mainland, where their splintered ideas would be able to be safely removed from the islands, without having to violently purge their kinsmen
And while the ayleids and the chimer were some of the most extreme ends of this, the altmer who colonized the peninsula were among them as well, various heretical (i.e. any of them promoting some change in tradition) movements regarding the interpretations of the ancestors and how to follow or honor them
my idea is that the Direnni clan specifically were followers of a cult of Phynaster as an adaptationist/scientist, believing that Phynaster discovered further perfection and extended the altmer lifespan further through a willingness to dissect and analyze the ways and remnants of the aldmer and aedra, rather than simply preserve them and follow their traditions without change.  This interpretation of phynaster called for analysis of traditions, and a willingness to abandon or innovate on those traditions when they are found to be inadequate for the current state of existence, rather than simply clinging to them in an effort to delay the change of existence
Now
Sometime between the year 240 and 272, (or sometime before 355, if you believe that one Sancre Tor source that says the skyrim conquests lasted until 415) the nords invaded the peninsula inhabited by the Altmer and devastated their hold over it.  It doesn't really say anything about it, but I imagined it occurred in multiple waves throughout those decades, with numerous nordic chiefs leading pushes into elven lands in Vrage's name, and a few times by Vrage himself, some of them becoming crowned as Jarls themselves over their conquests by their high king.  Many clans of altmer were outright destroyed; many more fled further and further into the lands of others, until by the end only a bare few lands were controlled by altmer of their former spread- probably a few islands, some keeps in the mountains, maybe on the hegathe coast unless we want to assume some nord desert kingdom was established there as well
Here's where I'm gonna pull from some questionable sources, and use what is said by an old daggerfall game guide to influence my judgement on a part of their history that no other source says a damn thing about how they did it
The Daggerfall Chronicles states that in the year 355 of the First Era, The Direnni reclaimed power.  This matches with imperial library's further timeline that has some information that was only gained through developer intervies, that says that in 358 of the first era, the Direnni were fighting Imperials and nords in the reach, and the nords were continuing to lose territory in greater betony to the Direnni.
Now where this shit is interesting, is that the Daggerfall Chronicles makes it clear that the Direnni were in human lands and part of an otherwise human power of nords, and were the only remaining ruling altmer family within this nordic territory
So when the nords conquered, the Direnni fell to nords, and yet never lost control over their territory to them
and what the daggerfall chronicles makes further clear is that the Direnni reclaimed their power initially not through conquest, but through "political maneuvering and questionable machinations"
So lets wind the timeline discussion here back to the 260s or 270s somewhere, when a nordic conqueror is making landing on Direnni clan shores, ready to conquer and drive out another elven kingdom
What did the Direnni do, that they fell to this nord, but never lost their lands
I got an idea for it that was always part of my early high rock ideas, that the cultural maps were borrowed from
and it might super contradict with what the mod already has on them

Violet Prophet of RomanelliToday at 8:16 PM
I personally interpret the Direnni gaining and then subsequently losing their holdings in "large parts of Skyrim and Hammerfell" (quoted from Daggerfall Chronicles) as the majority of Direnni Strongholds fell and then the remaining Direnni clanmer, knowing that it's a losing battle, intermarry with certain Nordic conquerors, and act as their court wizards and such. These Direnni would be the ones in the Skyrim/High Rock/Hammerfell border kingdoms/holds.

ZinitradToday at 8:17 PM
When the nords were conquering and it was clear the Altmer were losing, the Direnni began a plan of persistence should they arrive on their lan- well shit my dude that is exactly my ideas

Violet Prophet of RomanelliToday at 8:18 PM
Lol
You're not the only one with Daggerfall Chronicles :stuck_out_tongue:
There's at least two of us!

ZinitradToday at 8:19 PM
So basically this nord dude arrives on direnni shores, either somewhere on Balfiera or Bhoriane, depends on whether you want to imagine they control Balfiera at this point.  When the nords arrive, instead of fighting against them like the other altmer did and losing, the Direnni go out onto the beaches and surrender, offering them in and honoring them as their new rulers, and by the end of the night, offering to the conquering nord a direnni daughter's hand in marriage
and so over the course of decades, the Direnni establish an intermarried branch of the direnni line, some of them now under nordic clan names, marrying their children to nordic lords all across the Rock, settling ties to the Direnni dynasty all throughout the nordic jarldoms of betony, all while maintaining a quiet Direnni line, and building towards a long term plan
of turning nordo-nedic rulers throughout the rock into half elven lines loyal to Clan Direnni, until it reached a point where they would be able to call upon them to sever themselves from the greater nordic empire, and shift their power back into the clan's true line
a series of political machinations that reached its fruition in the year 355, where, controlling much of the illiac and Bjoulsae and the Balfieran isle through intermarried dynasties and their own official holdings, they declared themselves an independent power and brought their intermarriages back under their name
And so was the origins of the Direnni interbreeding with men, and the first of their secondary class of half elven enforcers, sub-nobility, and favored servants who would be the beginnings of the first true manmeri
@Miraclestone what do you think of that shit

MiraclestoneToday at 8:26 PM
this all works for me, I like how you tied it into the manmeri origins
my only concern would be if this conflicts with ShotN
since it has alot to do with them too, being very Nord involved
what is your take on the fall of the Reach in the 800s? Why is it said to have been so bad compared the fall of the Direnni on Greater Bretony

ZinitradToday at 8:31 PM
so the year's 355, the direnni clan has resurfaced, they've redeclared the hegemony, they've invited the surviving altmer clans of the old hegemony back in, and you have a shitton now of half elves, quarter elves, eighth elves, sixteenth elves, many of them with strong ties to direnni family and many of them with strong loyalties of the nordo-nedic populaces.  Enlisting the human populaces, a third class beneath their half-elves, they begin the conquest of remaining nord lands, spreading across Betony until by 358, they're fighting nords in the reach, and the imperials are concerned enough that they're marching off to meat them in war and losing.  I know you have the whole idea of the Normans totally resisting direnni conquest, but I think it'd make more sense if it was that part of the norman lands always resisted, while others later merged with the normans after their later revolts against the Direnni

MiraclestoneToday at 8:32 PM
which part of Norman lands exactly?

ZinitradToday at 8:33 PM
Somewhere down the line from here, they manage to reconquer nearly all of Greater Betony, and spread back down along the Hegathe coasts.  Not only are they doing this, but they're beginning to open their doors to ayleid refugees from the persecutions by the humans in Cyrodiil, further bolstering their elven numbers on top of the clans that came back.  I'm imagining they settle down into a lot of the now Ostern regions, which is part of why the Ostern picked up Meredie from them
really them picking up meredie from the ayleids was always my intention with meredie being among the breton gods, and I always imagined the ayleids settled into that area, but you putting the ostern as the ones who give a shit about her was a really happy coincidence
And what part of norman lands?  Probably Shornhelm
maybe shornhelm and northpoint both
but definitely Shornhelm

MiraclestoneToday at 8:35 PM
sure, the idea is more that there were Nords who held out and the Direnni didnt bother with them since it would have been a big hassel getting them out of the mountains

ZinitradToday at 8:36 PM
Now, there's a lot of half elves in the population of Greater Betony here, or at least, a lot of half elves for a world where elves and humans still generally hate each others guts.  But I don't know if its enough to really get a whole population with enough elven blood for it to reflect in a generally higher magicka amongst the whole group.  Which is why it seems clear that the Direnni continues to lay with men, continues to have children with them, all while the part-elves were marrying and having children with nordo-nedes
So why the fuck
here's another bit that might contradict you all's ideas about the direnni, and it ties back into my ideas about them being Phynaster as scientist cultists:
Magical eugenics experiment

MiraclestoneToday at 8:37 PM
nah that sounds like our Direnni

ZinitradToday at 8:37 PM
they were trying to merge man and mer and rebreed ehlnofey

MiraclestoneToday at 8:37 PM
ehh maybe not that extreme lol
I don't mind the idea
but We'll see if the more orthodox lorelets approve

ZinitradToday at 8:38 PM
Maybe not that far then, but still, they were trying to do something, some kind of experiment in being able to revert the degeneration of men, or even if it was just seeing what would come out of it
they saw that the unions created something, and they were trying to see the extent to which it could be taken
And so they continued to breed with humans, no longer as intermarriages but instead keeping groups of them as... concubines of sorts?  I don't know how to put it without it getting weird
regardless the part elven secondary class continues to grow, and over the following decades it continued to trickle down into the human folk below them
now winding the clock back a bit, its not long after the direnni reclaim power in their name, just about six years after, that the whole alessian stuff officially shifts from being a really popular cult in nibenay to having the control over the early empire to be able to insitute the Alessian doctrines as law, at least according to the timeline.  No idea how the exacts of this go in the mod, but these events are happening like, within the same span of a few years
I don't know if the Direnni have finished their reclamation of the hegemony by this point or not, not entirely relevant, if they haven't they do it soon after
which is also why they're in the position to start inviting in Alyeids fleeing cyrodiil
Over the course of the next century (literally its exactly a century before the next give a shit event happens in the timeline), the Direnni engage in more official re-educations of their secondary human class, teaching them to an extent of their gods and doing what they could to wash that nordic bullshit out of their mouths.  I keep saying secondary/third human class- I don't actually think the humans at this point are really slaves of the direnni.  Other humans call them slaves, but I think its a relationship at this point far closer to the breton relationships between lords and commoners.  These guys are serfs and commoners, non-noble tradesmen, they don't really own land but they effectively live in villages and cities, and above them the part elves hold minor nobility, the infancy of the concepts of knighthoods, the greatest among them have their own small keeps and lesser men do labor for them, they lead their master/lords armies
But its also throughout this whole time period that the Direnni enter into a sort of a cold war with the alessians that occasionally erupts in small conflicts within the reach but never really break out into active fighting within alessian lands, or direnni lands
The reasons for this, simplified: Alessians aren't much keen on the Direnni ruling men.  The Direnni aren't much keen on the way the Alessians treat elves within their lands.  But neither side is confident in their ability to declare a true war upon the other- the Direnni have rebuffed every probing through the reach, the colovians aren't exactly on good enough terms with the Alessians for it to be entirely tolerated for them to march men through their lands to leave on fleets across the abecean, the only other good naval route would be to sail down the niben and all the way around and that's just too damn long, there's no good way to invade Altbal and slap the shit out of the Direnni.  The Direnni are uncertain if they'd be able to actually fight off the Alessians, if they managed to break in and through.

MiraclestoneToday at 8:54 PM
I had it that the Allessian Reforms took root at the Bjoulsae River delta and caused a rebellion. The Direnni quashing it pissed off the Allessians
Basically the same thing

ZinitradToday at 8:55 PM
So when the Alessians start fucking with the Direnni by sneaking missionaries into their lands to spread the word of the Alessian doctrines, and to incite humans to try to revolt, the Direnni find themselves in an annoying goddamn position of being afraid to actively crush these alessian rabble rousers
because actively killing these guys could push the Alessians to actually make that push and sail out the niben, or maybe even risk travelling across the deadlands, and the Direnni are quietly terrified about what the Alessians might do if they actively make that step, so they continue to make the token efforts of trying to persuade their human commoners against the alessian doctrines, and fighting off the actual rebellions whenever they come about, even when they know the bastards who incite them to revolution are standing right out in the streets, preaching imperial doctrines to nedo-nords and manmeri
and this state, lasts about til Rislav's revolt
Now, somewhere in here, the Direnni engage in some of their peak legendary innovations into the sciences of what magic can do.  They spend this whole century trying to pry into the Ada mantia, they refine the process of utilizing the aedric adamantine material, they revolutionize the arts of conjuration and alchemy, and they engage in a bunch of social control arcanoarchitecture bullshit that really doesn't remain standing in the slightest but I like it as a sidenote
the ayleids they invited interbreed with the old altmer clans and become non-delineated from them for the most part, and so by extension a little bit of ayleid blood eventually passes down to the manmeri

MiraclestoneToday at 9:02 PM
I think if they were social control architecture, the new Breton Lords would make a point of destroying them first thing if they didnt know exactly how they worked, worried the Direnni would use them to gain control again
so I dont think its an issue nothing remains of them

ZinitradToday at 9:02 PM
yeah, more or less, or it crumbles over time because no one knows how to work with it, etc. etc.
btw, ESO has a really good etymology for breton that I like to imagine comes into wider use sometime in this century

MiraclestoneToday at 9:02 PM
Direnni Architecture seems to last a while. I think you would have to make a point of destroying it

ZinitradToday at 9:03 PM
that it comes from a hegemony altmer word meaning 'half', behratu
which eventually becomes 'breton' with the on being that nasally french on

MiraclestoneToday at 9:04 PM
We might want to take a break so others can add on later
have a chance at reading and making comment

ZinitradToday at 9:04 PM
and it was a word that first applied to the second class of part elves, and would only come to refer to the whole of the people after they came to power
Shit but I'm almost at the part where the direnni decline in high rock
but yeah you're right, I need skyrim people to read this stuff from the very beginning to make sure it doesn't violate or conflict with shotn direnni lore