<Boilerplate> Found this article: http://www.alternet.org/belief/20-vile-quotes-against-women-religious-leaders-st-augustine-pat-robertson?paging=off
<Boilerplate> I guess this serves as evidence that Christianity is inheritly misoygnst...well then again there is different sects though.
* SerCorbieGeisha headdesks
<Boilerplate> oh never mind
<SerCorbieGeisha> Is the entire religion of Christianity synonymous with the religious institution of The Church to you?
<Boilerplate> Well...that may seem like it at first but in reality it appears to be not the case. Although I first thought the religious institution was the 'offical word' sort of and everyone else are 'doing it wrong' as it appears to be.
<SerCorbieGeisha> You know how The Church came to be the authority on Christianity?
<Boilerplate> Well...I heard the Roman Empire had something to do with it...wait a minute so basically they converted the Roman way of misoygny to Christanity.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well, yah
<SerCorbieGeisha> But I'm thinking post Roman Empire
<SerCorbieGeisha> When they went around killing other sects
<SerCorbieGeisha> And, I think this woudl be of some interest to you
<SerCorbieGeisha> The Cathar sects
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well, that might not be entirely accurate since there wasn't really one Cathar authority
<SerCorbieGeisha> But generally
<SerCorbieGeisha> Their theology is quite different from the one we know
<SerCorbieGeisha> In Catharism, there are two Gods
<SerCorbieGeisha> Again, being general here. There coudl be variants
<SerCorbieGeisha> But anyway. There is a good God and a Bad God
<SerCorbieGeisha> The good God is formless and is the principle of Love in its purest
<SerCorbieGeisha> Whereas the bad God is the one who created the world and everything in it
<SerCorbieGeisha> So their spiritual/material dualism is taken to a greater extreme
<SerCorbieGeisha> All matter is bad
<SerCorbieGeisha> But
<SerCorbieGeisha> They were apparently also quite practical
<Boilerplate> Ah...I think I heard that before...Gnoticism I believe and also I think the "Bad God" was called the "Deimurge" or something like that
<SerCorbieGeisha> They didn't use the cruxifix as a symbol
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, gnosticism is related to the Cathars
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because to the Cathars, God cannot be made flesh because flesh is inherently evil. So Jesus is not the son of God
<SerCorbieGeisha> You can guess why the Vatican were waiting for an excuse to kill all the Cathars
<Boilerplate> I always knew that Christians associate everything flesh and material as "Evil" while the the Spiritual and Immaterial as "Good"...sounds like ascesticism...well it's has similarities with the Buddhist concept of the real world being a "illusion" i.e. a distraction while the spiritual is the actual 'real reality' sort of.
<SerCorbieGeisha> There are definitely similarities
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't think there were many Cathar ascetics though
<SerCorbieGeisha> They tend to be communal, if I'm getting my history right
<Boilerplate> Of course though I can see the original origin of Atheism/Materialism is "What if there is no God/Spiritual/etc? And what if we're all wasting our time suffering rigid rules but to die and there's nothing waiting beyond as if we wasted our entire lives? Fuck that, I rather enjoy life and embrace the material/flesh"
<Boilerplate> Also I was about to say though there is also alot of similarities between the Adam and Eve story and Pandora's Box for one thing (I'm not so sure if the Romans actually believed the Pandora's Box creation story).
<SerCorbieGeisha> Who really knows
<Boilerplate> Well...what I was referring to though if you read the article I posted and read "Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)" qoute since for one thing both creation stories seem to blame women (Eve eating the apple and Pandora opening the box) for the world's problems.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes, I am familiar with both creation myths
<Boilerplate> Well yes
<Boilerplate> Although I wonder what was the origin of the Adam and Eve story though, also the whole " In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve?" thing
<Ozaline> The one thing though, is that the Greek gods created Pandora specifically to screw man over, where as Eve was tricked... I really think she bears less of the fault then Adam does cause Eve was tricked where as Adam knew exactly what he was doing.
<Boilerplate> of course what I put in quotes is what I thought for a long time that Christianity is inhereitly misoygntic due to that very reason though.
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<Ozaline> Well there are many kinds of Christians and they all interpret things differently... the book of Genesis was cobbled together from two different Jewish traditions, and if one knows it they can't claim to take it all literally cause it contradicts itself in several places.
<Ozaline> Of course many Christians do claim to take it litterally but just one example of where it contradicts itself can be found in the story of Noah
<Boilerplate> Well another thing too though that Judahism is basically a footnote of Hebrew Polythism which I thought Adam and Eve may had it's origins in there.
<SerCorbieGeisha> The four gospels on Jesus contradicts itself a lot too
<Boilerplate> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HebrewMythology
<Ozaline> From Genesis 6
<Ozaline> 19: And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
<Ozaline> 20: Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
<Ozaline> and then...
<Ozaline> Genesis 7
<Ozaline> 2: Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
<Ozaline> 3: Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
<SerCorbieGeisha> It retconned itself!
<Ozaline> yeah
<Ozaline> God: Take two of every animal onto the Ark... no wait, you might want some extra birds and clean Animals, yeah take more of those!
<Boilerplate> LoL Bible
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah. The Bible is more a compilation than a single epic narrative
<Boilerplate> Also note "The Male and His Female"....yep it confirms that they referred to women as if like property
<Ozaline> BP not sure how that stacks up to the original Hebrew, this is from the King James
<Boilerplate> The "His Female" is from the King James version?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yes
<Boilerplate> Not to mention the "Painful Childbirth and the Husband shall rule over you" also originated from King James as well
<Boilerplate> maybe
<SerCorbieGeisha> Unless you can read the Hebrew of that time...
<Ozaline> But there's certainly more room for interpretation with Eve then there is with Pandora (at least Hessiod's version of Pandora).
<Ozaline> From "works and days"
<Ozaline>  (ll. 54-59) `Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire -- a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.'
<Ozaline> (ll. 60-68) So said the father of men and gods, and laughed aloud. And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athene to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and...
<Ozaline> ...cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.
<Ozaline> (ll. 69-82) So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son of Cronos. Forthwith the famous Lame God moulded clay in the likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Cronos purposed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the divine Graces and queenly Persuasion put necklaces of gold upon her, and the rich-haired Hours crowned her head with spring flowers. And Pallas...
<Ozaline> ...Athene bedecked her form with all manners of finery. Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (2), because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.
<Ozaline> Now it's not quite clear if Pandora is supposed to be the "first woman" or not, especially with the way Hessiod devides things into different ages of men, but she is the archetypal woman for the ancient Greeks.
<Boilerplate> Maybe it's possible that there might be older stories of the Greek myths that might be lost with a totally different origin story.
<Boilerplate> or maybe not
<SerCorbieGeisha> Definitely possible
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well
<SerCorbieGeisha> There wasn't a Greece state back then
<Ozaline> No it's very likely, a lot of what's in the Greek stories was taken from Babylonian lore first,, and also they evolved over time, for example the reason Athena is called Pallas Athene is her cult overtook the cult of Pallas.
<Boilerplate> So basically, the Greek Pantheon were originally single cult gods that basically rolled and merged into Pantheon
<Ozaline> What we have today are the works of poets and historians but they'd all put their own spin on it.
<Boilerplate> Well for one thing I did hear that Talos wasn't originally a Giant walking Statue but he was a Sun God.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, there isn't really one singular Greek myth
<Boilerplate> I guess it shows that doing a "All Myths are True" settings are getting harder and harder to pull off without the easiest way to do it is to have some Mage: The Acension style subjective reality methods.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not really
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm actually kind of attempting to write a story now using such a setting
<SerCorbieGeisha> The way I'm dealing with it is by limiting the scope
<Ozaline> Likewise there isn't one Christian myth or one Jewish myth either... the Religous authorities sat down and picked out the versions they liked best... and the problem really lies in  people who assume that the Bible was somehow immune to politicking and that every word comes directly from God.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, exactly
<SerCorbieGeisha> And it's like, you think your language can perfectly capture what God says even if it really drectly from God?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Okay
<Boilerplate> I guess it means the part that actually bothers me the most about Christian mythology "You shall painful Childbirth and your Husband shall rule over you" can be taken out then?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Elohian could be an exception
<SerCorbieGeisha> Or is it called Elochian
<SerCorbieGeisha> Lingual magic is interesting, but you have to conlang so I don't want to
<Ozaline> And then also people use it to support their own prejudices... the bible has as many verses on the need to have fair scales as homosexulity, but in America you hear about homosexuality a lot because that's what people are concerned with.
<SerCorbieGeisha> And it's also likely that Sodom was dsetroyed because they were a horrible people and not because they had homosexuality
<Ozaline> right.
<Ozaline> And Abraham is like "here rape my daughters instead of my guests" and people go... "oooh cause having sex with men is bad right, it's better if they have sex with women." >_>
<Ozaline> when it's reasonable to assume that Abraham just placed a higher priority on protecting his guests above his family.
<Ozaline> The scholar and activist Jay Michaelson proposes a reading of the story of Sodom that emphasizes the violation of hospitality as well as the violence of the Sodomites. "Homosexual rape is the way in which they violate hospitality—not the essence of their transgression. Reading the story of Sodom as being about homosexuality is like reading the story of an ax murderer as being about an ax."
<SerCorbieGeisha> Didn't the sodomites try to rape angels even?
<Ozaline> yeah that's exactly it
<SerCorbieGeisha> This may sound really out of left field but
<SerCorbieGeisha> Attempting to rape the messengers of God sounds way more blashpemous than homosexuality
<SerCorbieGeisha> That might be just me though
<SerCorbieGeisha> Considering how terrifying the angels look...
<SerCorbieGeisha> I kind of have to give it to them for being so daring
<Boilerplate> Well from the TV Tropes page I linked to later ago "Few people in the western world realize that Judaism, and by extension Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i faith, are essentially Written by the Winners version of older religions present in the Levant. "
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, exactly
<Boilerplate> Well it could be said that Yaweh the Abrahamic deity is actually the same Caanite war Deity that only got a huge following around him and the rest is history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_%28Canaanite_deity%29
<SerCorbieGeisha> Likely
<Boilerplate> That means that Yaweh took all credit for the rest of the Elohim did.
<Boilerplate> Of course I wondering how Hebrew Mythology and Abrahamic Religions can be tied to together though...
<SerCorbieGeisha> Don't ask me
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's not on my list
<SerCorbieGeisha> Don't really want it to be on my list either
<SerCorbieGeisha> On account of it not being my place, really
<Boilerplate> Like for example...the Adam and Eve was a complete fabrication or maybe it's possible that Yahweh created a world himself which is later became the World of Darkness (of course lampooning worlds that takes Christanity as a basis though).
<SerCorbieGeisha> And then there is a God of Light
<SerCorbieGeisha> And they fight
<SerCorbieGeisha> Then the God of Light dies
<Boilerplate> God of Dark wins
<SerCorbieGeisha> But before the God of Light dies, they release their will into millions upon millions of seeds
<SerCorbieGeisha> And thousands of years later
<SerCorbieGeisha> People receive the seeds
<SerCorbieGeisha> The God of Darkness
<SerCorbieGeisha> Fearing challenge to his power sends angels to kill thosewith the Light Seeds
<SerCorbieGeisha> People with the Light Seeds would manifest psychic powers, a sign the angels use to locate the Light Seeds
<SerCorbieGeisha> But there is one
<SerCorbieGeisha> Who the Seed of Light has germinated within!
<SerCorbieGeisha> And with its power, this one can evolve into a greater lifeform
<SerCorbieGeisha> KAMEN RIDER AGITO!
<Boilerplate> ^Nooooooooooooooooo........
<SerCorbieGeisha> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ccjb_KeJY I can't find just the opening so...
<SerCorbieGeisha> And yeah, I basically just recited the plot to a superhero show
<SerCorbieGeisha> Aimed at kids
<Boilerplate> Well what I originally had in mind though is lampooning White Wolf's Old World of Darkness setting (Yahweh the Caanite War God with a huge ego creates a world following Bibical events well actually what's described in Demon: The Fallen, Also the first vampire being Caine, and such) which became the World of Darkness...
<SerCorbieGeisha> Okay
<Boilerplate> and then someone from the original world (the "All Myths are True" world where it doesn't have Christinaity as a basis) finds a lighthouse and get's transported to that world
<Boilerplate> "Mythoshock" I would call it...
<SerCorbieGeisha> What are you going to do with it?
<Boilerplate> Don't know, I'm just brainstorming ideas
<Boilerplate> Anway...Yahweh's worlds is basically a Unified OWoD setting using Demon's cosmology actually is what I was thinking about.
<Boilerplate> And the protagonist who finds herslef there...is actually a Avatar of a Hindu God (Kali/Durga/etc most likley).
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<SerCorbieGeisha> Do you really need to have a Kali avatar?
<Boilerplate> Probably not, although I first thought though I would add something on there that breaks the consistancy of the "Christian Basis" world of Yaweh...or maybe going more personal though, maybe the protagonist could instead be one of Ba'al's angels being sent to Yaweh's world.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Maybe
<SerCorbieGeisha> Just remember that my goddess is not for you to use whenever you like
<Boilerplate> So the God I'm restricted to is the Christian God...or maybe no God's at all.
<Boilerplate> Anyway....Geisha what is the story your writing about that you spoke of?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Hold on
<SerCorbieGeisha> It started out as something I'm writing for Pinki
<SerCorbieGeisha> But I feel like trying to make a novel out of it now
<SerCorbieGeisha> Anyway
<SerCorbieGeisha> Chapter one is up https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87697621/Gate%20of%20Xyvarosk%20Chapter%201.html
<Boilerplate> Gate of Xyvarosk eh?
<Boilerplate> Who is Xyvarosk?
<SerCorbieGeisha> What do you think?
<Boilerplate> Well....looks good so far
<SerCorbieGeisha> First chapter should give you an idea what to expect
<Boilerplate> So far I see Kitsunes on there
<Boilerplate> "The Gate of Xyvarosk is a grimoire written with the ultimate purpose of summoning an extradimensional entity with uncertain powers over our reality. I have ascertained that the Cult of Xyvarosk have a base in this city. It is likely that the grimoire is in their possession.."
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's a madeup Lovecraftian diety
<Boilerplate> Well a Elderitch Abomination actullay?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well...
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm reserving the details for later
<SerCorbieGeisha> Also, my fox spirit is kind of an amalgamation of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean ones
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not that the human-eating version doesn't exist in Chinese and Japanese tellings
<SerCorbieGeisha> So
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
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<Boilerplate> Queen of Banana
<Boilerplate> <SerCorbieGeisha> Just remember that my goddess is not for you to use whenever you like   I remember you told me that the only correct way to include the presence of Hindu gods is their avatars though. Actually though I'm thinking discarding my "WoD" idea since it's just a product that I used to like the setting but now I view it great disgust.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Okay
<SerCorbieGeisha> You know what
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's hard to explain this to someone for whom Hinduism isn't part of their background
<SerCorbieGeisha> Well, Hinduism isn't part of my background exactly but
<SerCorbieGeisha> You can't seperate Hinduism and Buddhism what with both having common history
<SerCorbieGeisha> Probably there were mutual influences too
<SerCorbieGeisha> But okay
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<SerCorbieGeisha> Point is
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<SerCorbieGeisha> There's a lot of context which you won't be sensitive of
<SerCorbieGeisha> And frankly
<SerCorbieGeisha> I don't trust you personally with it
<SerCorbieGeisha> You seem to want to project something onto my goddess
<Boilerplate> I guess I shouldn't do that.
<Boilerplate> Although sometimes people hate their own cultural backgrounds though like I am with Christianity to be honest though and the resaon I look up to other cultral backgrounds.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, criticising your own background is your own preogative
<SerCorbieGeisha> But "looking u" to other cultures can be easily fetishising
<Boilerplate> I guess I'm doing it wrong then, or maybe I should stick to my own cultural background even though I despise it or maybe something else...
<SerCorbieGeisha> Um
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's good to learn more about others
<SerCorbieGeisha> But you have to know your boundaries
<Boilerplate> When speaking of boundaries, using Christianity as a basis while using other Deities as playthings is crossing the line from my understanding.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, I'm not saying you have to use it as a basis in what you make
<SerCorbieGeisha> I'm talking about how you approach other things
<Boilerplate> Well...how do you approach other things?
<SerCorbieGeisha> Also, not saying you can't reject Christianity. Go ahead and reject it. But you obviously don't know much about its history as you think
<SerCorbieGeisha> So it's basically a thing about experiences
<Boilerplate> Of course I'm trying to learn it's (Christianity if that's what you mean) history.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<SerCorbieGeisha> Like for example, it's been around in parts of Africa and Asia even before Europena colonialism happened
<SerCorbieGeisha> They have a different experience with it than you do
<SerCorbieGeisha> Then there are feminist and queer Christians. You don't tell them to abandon it when they see how it can be changed and want to change it
<SerCorbieGeisha> Whatever you decide for yourself is your own
<SerCorbieGeisha> But you'll be a dick if you insist that everyone has the same experience with it as you do
<Boilerplate> Point is, not everyone has the same experiance as I do and not to mention things are subjective.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<SerCorbieGeisha> So everytime you bring up the whole Christianity is X thing
<SerCorbieGeisha> Firstly, you're not saying anything we don't already know
<SerCorbieGeisha> Secondly, you tend to not take into account the experiences of others
<SerCorbieGeisha> Hmm
<SerCorbieGeisha> Not saying you can't hate it
<SerCorbieGeisha> But when you bring up the misogynistic history, you're kind of mansplaining there
<SerCorbieGeisha> It is a women's issue and when you bring the hostile tone to something which doesn't target you
<SerCorbieGeisha> Comes across rather skeevy
<Boilerplate> If it doesn't target me, well that means I shouldn't bring it up then although I try to empathic though but then again, privledge is a nasty thing.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, it is
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's not necessary that you don't  have to ever bring it up
<SerCorbieGeisha> Anyway, the thing is just to watch your privilege
<SerCorbieGeisha> If you want to make something about Yahweh being a jealous dictator usurping a pantheon, go ahead
<Boilerplate> Well actually I just thought about that and it only takes one cultural experiance into account not the others.
<SerCorbieGeisha> You don't have to use everything
<SerCorbieGeisha> You are familiar  with "Write what you know", right?
<Boilerplate> Yep, since I heard that everything that a artist/writer makes is a reflection of themselves
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<SerCorbieGeisha> You need a lot of sensitivity to work with other cultures
<SerCorbieGeisha> Same goes for me too
<SerCorbieGeisha> It's hard work, but its important work
<Boilerplate> Well it's also a simialr reason why white male writers write white male protagonists
<SerCorbieGeisha> I like to add in to that saying
<SerCorbieGeisha> So my version is
<SerCorbieGeisha> Write wt you know, and always strive to know more
<SerCorbieGeisha> That isnt really catchy
<SerCorbieGeisha> Because I'm not a good saying sayer
<SerCorbieGeisha> And also I'm probably not the first one to say that an yway
<Boilerplate> Saying sayers saying things
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<Boilerplate> Well about I was going to say: Well I'm honestly not religious myself (I don't go to church every sunday) but I remember I was (I think I remember telling you this before haven't I?) baptised Catholic because my Mom's side were heavy Catholics (well they were from Italy) while Dad's side isn't that religious though. that's my background is.
<Boilerplate> well when I was a baby actually
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah, I know you aren't religious
<SerCorbieGeisha> And you don't have to be
<SerCorbieGeisha> You don't have to be spiritual or anything
<Boilerplate> Of course I do know plenty of people who are that religious though that go through commuinons and confirmations and such but the worst part I noticed that they sometimes force it and eventually shape and mold their sons/daughters into just like them rather than a personal choice.
<SerCorbieGeisha> Yeah
<Boilerplate> Not to mention most of them end up being hard core conseratives as well which I know one of them on facebook and I looked at their likes page not only they liked Priests like "Doyle" (as I remember his name) but they alsoe liked Mitt Romney, "Being Conserative", Glenn Beck, etc and lastly if not least the Republican party.
<Boilerplate> the "like" button that is