thing

Could you write up a couple of inner colony systems that could theoretically support populations of over a billion? Not necessarily garden worlds but just conditions, space and resources that allow for very big populations...maybe partly terraformed like Mars?
[4:18:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No.
[4:18:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Because Earth, Tau Ceti, and EE
[4:18:56 PM] Rusty Shackleford: are all viable
[4:19:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: anything else nearby would take a hella long time to terraform, or would be far enough away to be considered outer colony
[4:19:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: hmph
[4:19:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: well
[4:19:43 PM] Rusty Shackleford: could look into it a bit more
[4:19:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and see if I could artistic license a red dwarf
[4:19:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but the way I see it
[4:19:57 PM] Rusty Shackleford: TC, EE, and S
[4:20:00 PM] Ben: Well, there's a few inner colony systems with big populations
[4:20:11 PM] Ben: more than just Sol, Tau Ceti and EE
[4:20:16 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the big three should contain the majority of the human population though
[4:20:30 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it's hard to move billions of people onto a planet
[4:20:52 PM] Ben: Yea, system populations are at most 1.5 - 2 billion
[4:21:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: https://what-if.xkcd.com/7/
[4:21:07 PM] Ben: and that's given 3 centuries of colonization and natural repopulation
[4:21:15 PM] Ben: yes, I've read the damn comic
[4:21:36 PM] Ben: But it doesn't account for warp drive
[4:21:48 PM] Ben: I'm all for scientific details but this is a work of fiction we're talking about
[4:22:14 PM] Ben: I mean ffs, we have cloning technology and large-scale teleportation technology
[6:14:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: teleportation is iffy
[6:14:55 PM] Rusty Shackleford: every so often you end up in deep space
[6:14:58 PM] Rusty Shackleford: so I wouldn't count on it
[6:15:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'd say that three systems containing most of the population is pretty good
[6:26:08 PM] Ben: it's not even most
[6:26:19 PM] Ben: Sol, Tau Ceti and EE have like 3 billion
[6:26:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that's way too tiny
[6:26:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: WAAAAAAAY too tiny
[6:26:28 PM] Ben: 4-5 billion*
[6:26:35 PM] Ben: well, Earth got blown up
[6:26:42 PM] Ben: and has like 1 billion people
[6:26:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: no way in HELL you'd get most of the population of Humanity's home system out into the rest of the galaxy in a few centuries
[6:26:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: msot of the bastards would go to Mars or hang around
[6:26:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 3 billion is too fucking tiny
[6:27:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If there's 40 billion
[6:27:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: or 50 depending on what you changed it to
[6:27:18 PM] Ben: 40.1
[6:27:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Well, I would expect 85 to 90% to never leave a 20 LY radius of Earth
[6:28:23 PM] Ben: There's been a much larger spreading out of humanity
[6:28:36 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not in five centuries.
[6:28:40 PM] Ben: yes in 5 centuries
[6:28:43 PM] Rusty Shackleford: When even colony ships can only carry several thousand
[6:28:56 PM] Ben: that's why you make a shit ton of them and they do repeat missions
[6:29:00 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No no no.
[6:29:00 PM] Ben: and then you supply the planets
[6:29:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You also need people wanting to leave their entire lives behind
[6:29:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: most people are not willing to
[6:29:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: just to establish outer colonies
[6:29:24 PM] Ben: Earth was in need of resources and was over populated
[6:29:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It makes no sense, Table.
[6:29:38 PM] Ben: we had this discussion before
[6:29:42 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not with me.
[6:29:46 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Before
[6:29:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the argument was about the total population
[6:29:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: not distribution
[6:30:03 PM] Ben: 20 billion people live within the Sol Alliance
[6:30:11 PM] Ben: aboutb half of the population of human space
[6:30:15 PM] Ben: about*
[6:30:31 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That's also too small.
[6:30:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If it's the main connecting factor
[6:30:43 PM] Rusty Shackleford: you'd expect most people to be under their jurisdiction
[6:30:55 PM] Ben: They used to be, then colonies broke away
[6:30:56 PM] Rusty Shackleford: if they were to serve as the diplomatic bridge to other races
[6:30:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: not enough
[6:31:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: colonies
[6:31:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: would be able to do that
[6:31:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: even if they all did
[6:31:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 20.1 billion people is way too fucking many
[6:31:14 PM] Ben: rusty, I'm not willing to argue specifics with you
[6:31:17 PM] Ben: we;re talking hypothetics
[6:31:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You brought it up, and hell yeah I'm gonna argue it.
[6:31:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 3 bil is fuckin' measly, mang.
[6:31:43 PM] Ben: 4-5 billion
[6:31:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: For three entire, heavily structured systems.
[6:31:58 PM] Ben: Yes
[6:32:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: With several habitable planets each.
[6:32:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No.
[6:32:09 PM] Ben: EE has like 2
[6:32:14 PM] Ben: Tau Ceti also has 2
[6:32:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: EE had 3. One got blown up. TC has 2. Sol has 1, plus all the fuckin' moons
[6:32:36 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You can fit shit tons of people onto moons
[6:32:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: most would probably go there
[6:32:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: considering how you wouldn't let a shit ton of refugee ships use your precious warp gates at one time
[6:33:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Luna would be heavily populated
[6:33:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Mars would have shit tons of people
[6:33:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the moons fo Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus
[6:33:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: not counting free floating space stations
[6:33:38 PM] Ben: We didn't let people leave Earth, period
[6:33:41 PM] Ben: they just kinda dided
[6:33:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Even so
[6:33:43 PM] Ben: died*
[6:33:53 PM] Ben: a lot got smuggled out though
[6:34:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Earth not being there has no major effect on population distribution, table
[6:34:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: considering 40+ bil
[6:34:16 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that's not even considering TC and EE
[6:34:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: two planets apiece
[6:34:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: both habitable
[6:34:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and nearby
[6:34:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the first systems to be colonized
[6:34:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: no way in hell you'd have only 3 bil combined
[6:34:45 PM] Ben: again, 4-5 billion
[6:34:51 PM] Ben: probably more like 5 billion
[6:34:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 85 to 95% of people would likely be in all three combined
[6:34:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: learn to population dynamics
[6:35:05 PM] Ben: rusty
[6:35:10 PM] Ben: I'm kinda getting sick of the attitude
[6:35:34 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's not attitude. I'm not saying "CHANGE THIS OR I'LL LEAVE"
[6:35:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm giving you my opinion based on what I know.
[6:35:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: On things I took an interest in and researched
[6:36:00 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not just slapdash assumptions
[6:36:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm also not commanding you
[6:36:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm just vociferously disagreeing with you
[6:36:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I strongly disagree with your opinion, that only 5 billion people at most would be in the three core systems
[6:37:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: THey wouldn't be core systems if that was the case
[6:37:09 PM] Ben: they aren't the only core systems
[6:37:12 PM] Ben: that was never agreed upon
[6:37:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: What other ones, Table.
[6:37:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: What other ones are there.
[6:37:22 PM] Ben: I wanted to flesh some out!
[6:37:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Certanly not the Centauris.
[6:37:31 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Neither the red dwarves.
[6:37:37 PM] Ben: We can take some creative lee-way here
[6:37:46 PM] Ben: we don'tneed to be 105% scientifically accurate
[6:37:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: There's a difference between artistic license and forcing stuff
[6:37:55 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I don't do 100% accurate
[6:37:58 PM] Rusty Shackleford: for example
[6:38:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: EE is only theorized to have planets, and even then none that would support life
[6:38:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and the dust belt would prevent any colonization
[6:38:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but I dummied those down and out
[6:38:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: TC has three planets, but none are within its habitable zone
[6:38:38 PM] Ben: so let's dummy some more systems out!
[6:38:42 PM] Ben: Like the Giese's
[6:38:48 PM] Ben: the ones i suggested before
[6:38:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Gliese is viable, but not in the way you think
[6:39:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Viable after extreme amounts of terraforming
[6:39:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the planets are
[6:39:10 PM] Ben: Which we could probably do
[6:39:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and most of the planets would be gas giants
[6:39:15 PM] Ben: initial biodomes, heavy mining
[6:39:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You can't build biodomes on ice giants.
[6:39:28 PM] Ben: after centuries, terraforming efforts come to fruition
[6:39:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Or on planets with no metallicity
[6:39:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That's another factor
[6:39:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: if there's no resources
[6:39:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: there's no reason to colonize
[6:39:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it would only be a net drain
[6:39:44 PM] Ben: then we give them resources
[6:40:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Metallicity isn't something you hand out like candy.
[6:40:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I know what you're saying.
[6:40:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I get that you want more systems.
[6:40:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: What I'm saying.
[6:40:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Is that you're forcing and overcluttering.
[6:40:55 PM] Rusty Shackleford: More aren't needed.
[6:41:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Fleshing out of current systems is needed.
[6:41:06 PM] Rusty Shackleford: They're horribly bare, the lore pages for them.
[6:41:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Even with the edits for populations.
[6:41:17 PM] Ben: We don't need a lot of fluff!
[6:41:23 PM] Ben: People don't care about all the fluff
[6:41:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: What you are proposing. Is cluttering it with even more bare, unfleshed out systems
[6:41:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Which we do not need.
[6:41:40 PM] Ben: Tau Ceti is pretty flushed out
[6:41:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Hardly.
[6:41:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Name a city on Biesel except for the capital.
[6:42:00 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That's the kind of shit I mean.
[6:42:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You can't just slapdash planets everywhere.
[6:42:34 PM] Ben: Well players can use that space to add things in, like towns, cities w/e
[6:42:38 PM] Ben: those are more minor details
[6:42:43 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No, /WE/ need to do that.
[6:42:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's our job.
[6:42:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Otherwise we wouldn't be needed.
[6:43:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: We take suggestions.
[6:43:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But it's our responsibility.
[6:43:07 PM] Ben: we get the big details, the overview, we set the tone, the stage then we allow the players to partially fill it in with their characters
[6:43:20 PM] Ben: it isn't our job to write down every little detail
[6:43:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But when the planets are just big blobs of "a ball of rock with a capital and a population number", that's nowhere near enough to go on
[6:43:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Don't cop out, table.
[6:43:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Adding more planets doesn't add anything in total to the quality.
[6:44:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Quantity doesn't equal quality.
[6:44:08 PM] Ben: I know
[6:44:22 PM] Ben: I wanted to develop the systems to have a certain 'archtype'
[6:44:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I myself would be glad to flesh the hell out of the planets
[6:44:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But making more systems
[6:44:32 PM] Ben: one would be more rebellious, maybe the other would be more astere
[6:44:34 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and dummying in yet more impossible planets
[6:44:50 PM] Ben: Maybe it's a planet that wasn't discovered?
[6:45:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 500 years of FTL travel and sensors that can map planets down to the smallest detail.
[6:45:16 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not likely.
[6:45:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[6:45:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If I wrote a book.
[6:45:28 PM] Ben: wait...I'm confused here
[6:45:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: And just included as many planets are you're proposing
[6:45:35 PM] Ben: what are your sources for saying it's impossible?
[6:45:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm saying it's impossible that they weren't discovered before
[6:45:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: with FTL travel
[6:46:04 PM] Ben: The idea is they are core planets that have already been populated
[6:46:05 PM] Ben: for centuries
[6:46:13 PM] Ben: along with Tau Ceti, EE, whatever
[6:46:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[6:46:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Don't cop out.
[6:46:21 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Flesh out the actual planets.
[6:46:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Don't just leave them cardboard cutouts.
[6:46:42 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Just arbitrarily slappign more planets onto the galactic map
[6:46:46 PM] Rusty Shackleford: without any sort of fleshing out
[6:46:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: or any sort of narrative reason
[6:46:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: other than "MORE PLANETS"
[6:46:56 PM] Ben: Ok, how would you flesh out Tau Ceti?
[6:47:08 PM] Ben: JUst add in City names?
[6:48:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Map out Biesel. Give more specific statististics about population centers, histories of the population centers, name space based facilities, give a history of the government itself, a history of the people, cultural differences among regions, environmental differences among biomes, economics of the planet, etc
[6:48:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Then on to New Gibson.
[6:48:29 PM] Ben: Now that's getting into overly specific fluff
[6:48:40 PM] Ben: people may read into it, they may not
[6:48:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Yes, but a planet is not a big blob of arbitrary words
[6:48:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it's a living, breathing place
[6:48:49 PM] Ben: I like the idea of addingthat, but it's not necessary
[6:48:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Saying you want archetype planets
[6:48:56 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that would be fine for small colonies
[6:49:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but for planets with billions
[6:49:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: would be impossible
[6:49:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Utterly and entirely.
[6:49:22 PM] Ben: how is it impossible?
[6:49:25 PM] Ben: It's how we have it now
[6:49:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[6:49:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Have you turned on the news lately.
[6:49:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Since when have you seen a single archetype that covers humanity as a whole.
[6:49:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Or even the planet.
[6:49:59 PM] Ben: I don't mean like that
[6:50:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Then tell me what you mean.
[6:50:05 PM] Ben: I mean, keep details to  ahigh level
[6:50:13 PM] Ben: we don't need to go into every village
[6:50:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You mean meta level.
[6:50:26 PM] Ben: I do like the idea of fleshing out the planets themselves
[6:50:30 PM] Ben: but it's not a priority
[6:50:35 PM] Ben: characters can fill some of that in themselves
[6:50:42 PM] Ben: players*
[6:50:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: What I want, Table, as a whole, my goal, is to have people fully flesh out their characters. Give them places of origin, actual ctiies, provinces, environments, cultures.
[6:50:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Utterly unique things.
[6:51:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: So they don't have to be snowflakes.
[6:51:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: From backwater colonies.
[6:51:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: So they can all be unique, on the same planet.
[6:51:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Like humans are today.
[6:51:23 PM] Ben: You don't need that to not make snowflakes
[6:51:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Then what else would prevent it?
[6:51:45 PM] Ben: honesrly, policing
[6:51:48 PM] Ben: honestly*
[6:51:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Adding more and more planets until it's overcrowded with earth analogs?
[6:51:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and how are we going to police it
[6:51:58 PM] Ben: I don't think it's an issue that simple lore-writing can fix
[6:52:05 PM] Ben: people will always want to create their own space
[6:52:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table, are you a writer?
[6:52:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm not asking to be superior.
[6:52:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm just asking.
[6:52:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: So you can know where I'm coming from.
[6:52:57 PM] Ben: I don't write novels or anything
[6:53:08 PM] Ben: I just write some lore stuff
[6:53:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I've had several goes at novels. Never finished them, but I got pretty far in for many.
[6:53:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Have taught a class or two. Before they found someone more qualified.
[6:53:55 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The thing is, I like to care about a character.
[6:54:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I like to know where they come from.
[6:54:11 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Know who they are, as if they are a real person.
[6:54:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Otherwise you cannot sympathize properly.
[6:54:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Just having them from Biesel tells me nothing.
[6:55:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It tells me nothing about their preconeptions, their potential likes, dislikes, friends they might have made, what kind of political environment they were raised in
[6:55:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm not saying that you always need that detail
[6:55:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Nor am I advocating that every single person needs to have this
[6:55:50 PM] Ben: But you also can't completely know a person just by finding out where they're from
[6:55:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But the fact remains, that we need to nail this shit down. Make the planet something living, organic
[6:56:04 PM] Ben: I'd like to map out a high level detail of what the galaxy looks like, major popultion centers
[6:56:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But it certainly helps, table.
[6:56:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[6:56:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Also
[6:56:13 PM] Ben: then maybe we can work down from there
[6:56:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I don't think you have a sense of just how big the galaxy is
[6:56:33 PM] Ben: I know, it's huge
[6:56:34 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I know you can look at a picture
[6:56:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and guesstimate
[6:56:38 PM] Ben: that's why I said major population centers
[6:56:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but truly get a sense
[6:57:22 PM] Ben: look...this argument is exhausting
[6:57:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Yes.
[6:57:36 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But it is something that I care about for the lore.
[6:57:47 PM] Ben: BUt I don't see it as that big of a concern
[6:57:57 PM] Ben: and I don't think it will impact our players as much as you think it will
[6:58:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Don't underestimate them, table.
[6:58:13 PM] Ben: I'm not underestimating them
[6:58:29 PM] Ben: I'm just trying to approximate their concerns and what they want
[6:58:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But are you truly doing it accurately?
[6:58:45 PM] Ben: I think a broad overview of the galaxy is better than getting super detailed into spevcific systems
[6:59:06 PM] Ben: I've talked to people, they say that they don't really care when there's a lot of fluff
[6:59:23 PM] Ben: they just skim it or don't read it
[6:59:34 PM] Ben: some parts they latch onto, of course, but it's rare
[7:00:18 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm saying. It's unrealistic. If we wanted unrealistic, we should just drop every little thing we've ever done to detail anything, and just go with Goon lore.
[7:00:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If there was any.
[7:00:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Leaving a blank template galaxy does nothing.
[7:01:01 PM | Edited 7:01:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's just there. Gives no appreciation for the scale.
[7:01:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If the players didn't care about detail, I hardly think we'd all still be playing this game
[7:01:42 PM] Rusty Shackleford: of 2d spacemen and pixelled ERP
[7:04:08 PM] Rusty Shackleford: So.
[7:04:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: As I keep saying.
[7:04:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Flesh out the existing systems.
[7:04:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Before you have me go and invent new ones.
[7:05:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: also
[7:05:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: fully against only having 10% of the population in the "core" systems
[7:05:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: at the very least
[7:05:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 80% is somewhat believeable
[7:05:57 PM | Edited 7:06:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 32 billion people amonst five planets, not counting moons and stations
[7:06:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 6.4 billion per planet
[7:06:46 PM] Rusty Shackleford: still grossly underpopulated
[7:06:57 PM] Rusty Shackleford: for future times with advanced infrastructure and sustainable development
[7:16:26 PM] Ben: before I thought you said it would be impossible to get that many people out into space
[7:18:16 PM] Ben: imma make a poll
[7:18:25 PM] Ben: see if people want us to go wider or narrower
[7:18:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm saying. Is that to get that many people out to the outer systems
[7:18:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and colonize every single one
[7:18:43 PM] Ben: well 1,000 people is enough to colonize
[7:18:50 PM] Ben: that's the thing
[7:18:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: And do you know how many 1k's are in 1 billion.
[7:19:00 PM] Ben: shit tons
[7:19:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Yes.
[7:19:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Fucking.
[7:19:08 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Shit tons.
[7:19:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Even with 32 bil tied up in the core systems.
[7:19:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You still have shit tons to colonize outer systems.
[7:19:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Reflect on that.
[7:20:06 PM | Edited 7:20:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 8 billion people.
[7:20:36 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 1000 people per outer colony
[7:20:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that's 8 million colonies
[7:20:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The scale. Is motherfucking. Immense.
[7:20:58 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Think about it.
[7:21:06 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 8,000,000
[7:21:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: assuming each has 1,000 people
[7:24:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That is why I constantly urge the appreciation of scale.
[7:24:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Because people don't think about it.
[7:24:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: They assume a number just fits in nicely. Does not need to be considered
[7:58:24 PM] Ben: well they don't all have just 8,000
[7:58:27 PM] Ben: but i get the point
[7:58:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: even if each colony had a million
[7:58:56 PM] Rusty Shackleford: well
[7:59:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: wait, yeah
[7:59:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: you'd still have 8,000 colonies
[7:59:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: with a million each
[7:59:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: SO please.
[7:59:43 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Consider.
[7:59:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The scale.
[8:00:23 PM] Ben: I think it's possible given a few centuries
[8:01:00 PM] Ben: 300 million people got to America in the course of 500 ish years, and space travel is faster and safer than that
[8:01:11 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 300 million did not immigrate
[8:01:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and it was not 500 years
[8:01:29 PM] Ben: they settled and then had babies
[8:01:46 PM] Rusty Shackleford: most of the people in the americas before precolumbian times died off
[8:01:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: due to disease
[8:01:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 90%
[8:02:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Entire civilizations were destroyed.
[8:02:49 PM] Ben: excpet we're not dealing with pilgrims on ships
[8:02:53 PM] Ben: we;re dealing with space ships
[8:03:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The casualties of war then could be even worse
[8:03:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: especially with bioengineered viruses to release too
[8:03:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and people not exposed to the same strains of diseases
[8:03:21 PM] Ben: or it could not be
[8:03:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: between planets
[8:03:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Murphy's law, Table.
[8:03:36 PM] Rusty Shackleford: On that scale.
[8:03:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's going to come into effect.
[8:03:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 8,000 colonized planets
[8:03:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: assuming each has 1 million people
[8:04:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: with only 8 billion in the outer colonies
[8:04:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and 32 tied up in the core worlds of TC, EE and S
[8:04:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That's where your population grows.
[8:04:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not in the pirate infested, harsh and unforgiving void surrounding these colonies
[8:04:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: These would be frontiers.
[8:04:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not population centers.
[8:05:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 6.4 billion is less than what we have on Earth today.
[8:05:16 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Given 500 years, that would increase dramatically
[8:05:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but most of them would not end up in the fringes.
[8:05:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: they would stay in the core worlds
[8:05:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 80% is a very conservative estimate as to how many would stay
[8:05:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: actual estimate could be 90%
[8:06:41 PM] Ben: western Europe has a pop of 257 million, roughly
[8:06:43 PM] Ben: 357*
[8:06:49 PM] Ben: the US has 300 million
[8:06:57 PM] Rusty Shackleford: China and India have a billion each.
[8:06:59 PM] Ben: over the course of about 300-400 years
[8:07:11 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Oceanea has about 2 billion.
[8:07:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Africa and South America have their own as well.
[8:07:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: First world countries are not your standard, Table.
[8:07:53 PM] Ben: I don't understand the phrasing
[8:08:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Well, I'm assuming you're going to use developed countries as a standard for population growth
[8:08:20 PM] Ben: My point is that large scale population migrations and emmigrations are possible, and over centuries, populations can shift dramatically
[8:08:21 PM] Rusty Shackleford: since you're bringing them up
[8:08:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[8:08:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Have you ever had the thought.
[8:08:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: THat not everyone is allowed to emigrate.
[8:08:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Or even wants to.
[8:08:57 PM] Ben: THt was the situation in Europe in the past!
[8:09:09 PM] Ben: 'People were forced out by discrimination or were forced to leave!
[8:09:15 PM] Ben: or left seeking a new life
[8:09:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Most of Europe's population did not leave.
[8:09:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Otherwise Europe would be a fuckin' desert
[8:09:43 PM] Ben: YEs, and now the United States has a population not too far away from Europe's
[8:09:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Only becasue of our medical advances.
[8:09:55 PM] Ben: Earth's population dies after the second Sol Alliance war
[8:10:07 PM] Ben: OUr medical advances are roughly similar
[8:10:08 PM] Rusty Shackleford: And I assume that it had a much higher density of population than any other world
[8:10:23 PM] Ben: So? The point still stands regardless of pop density
[8:10:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: if the other planets in the core systems
[8:10:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: has first world medical care
[8:10:30 PM] Ben: Earth is Europe, space in the US
[8:10:31 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I can see the grwoth
[8:10:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I can see the growth.
[8:10:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I don't dispute the growth. In the core worlds.
[8:10:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not in the fringe worlds.
[8:11:00 PM] Ben: I can live with that
[8:11:03 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The fringe worlds will be sparsely populated
[8:11:10 PM] Ben: THe outer systems have like a few amount of people
[8:11:11 PM] Ben: yep
[8:11:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: at least 32 billion would live in TC, EE, and S
[8:11:19 PM] Ben: that's a bit too high
[8:11:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: at the conservative 80% estimate
[8:11:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that's how much it is
[8:11:28 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it still leaves 8 BILLION people
[8:11:32 PM] Ben: that's not how much it is
[8:11:38 PM] Ben: that number is not set in stone
[8:11:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 80 percent of 40
[8:11:47 PM] Ben: that percentage is not set in stone
[8:11:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I know. It's a conservative estimate.
[8:12:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Population dynamics, Table.
[8:12:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 8 BILLION people to populate an extremely sparse area of space
[8:12:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: around the core systems
[8:12:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: you'll still have shit tons of systems populated
[8:12:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: by respectable numbers of people
[8:12:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: several hundred thousand, maybe a few million in particularly successful ones
[8:13:02 PM] Rusty Shackleford: where growth has matched that of the core worlds' early days
[8:13:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But no way in hell.
[8:13:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Is only 10% of the population going to inhabit the core worlds.
[8:13:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Human space would encompasse about a third of the galaxy.
[8:13:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Several million light years.
[8:13:48 PM] Ben: THat's why I want to make more core systems, spread it out a little
[8:13:58 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No, they don't need to be spread out.
[8:14:00 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I just said that.
[8:14:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Because it would be concentrated.
[8:14:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Populations concentrate.
[8:14:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I say several million lightyears
[8:14:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: because there are things called voids
[8:14:32 PM] Rusty Shackleford: where there are no stars
[8:14:37 PM] Ben: Populations spread out during the manifest destiny thing
[8:14:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[8:14:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Populations didn't spread that much.
[8:14:55 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Most of the people still lived on the eastern part of the US.
[8:15:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Only after Manifest Destiny was completed
[8:15:12 PM] Ben: well you got some token settlements that turn into cities
[8:15:21 PM] Ben: but there's always people who will be willing to emmigrate
[8:15:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm not arguing against population growth, Table.
[8:15:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But the mass emigrations you speak of are unfounded, and would not be feasible.
[8:15:42 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The core worlds' economies would collapse.
[8:15:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: especially of non resource containing systems were colonized
[8:15:55 PM] Ben: I'm talking over the course of centuries
[8:16:05 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You're not understanding the scale of billions.
[8:16:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: A few hundred thousand managed to tame the west.
[8:16:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: And from there, they expanded.
[8:16:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But the population of hte US did not split off entirely from the east
[8:16:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and instead settle in the hellhole that the west was before it was tamed
[8:17:06 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Are you seeing my point?
[8:17:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The fringe is supposed to be a hellhole.
[8:17:18 PM] Ben: and it is
[8:17:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Then explain why people are mass emigrating.
[8:17:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Why 90% of the population decides to up and leave their cushy lives.
[8:17:57 PM] Ben: have you read the lore backstory?
[8:18:13 PM] Ben: cause Earth remains the most populated until it gets nearly destroyed
[8:18:21 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[8:18:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: If the earth had, say 20 billion people
[8:18:29 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and it got destroyed
[8:18:33 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and the current pop is 40
[8:18:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it wouldn't change a thing
[8:18:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it just means that 20 billion people died.
[8:18:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: or spread out into the rest of the Sol system
[8:18:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: since they were hella poor to begin with
[8:18:53 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and can't afford to start new lives
[8:19:11 PM] Rusty Shackleford: they can't afford to found colonies out in deep space.
[8:19:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: they can afford to pile into squatter cities
[8:19:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: on Mars and Luna
[8:19:29 PM] Ben: which they already have
[8:19:31 PM] Rusty Shackleford: maybe the moons of the gas giants
[8:19:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: and then expand into EE and TC
[8:19:46 PM] Rusty Shackleford: but the 20 billion on earth
[8:19:57 PM] Rusty Shackleford: only constituted a third of the population at the time, by your reasoning
[8:20:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: meaning that if they all died
[8:20:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: it doesn't mean the populations of the rest of the core systems were instantly reallocated
[8:20:48 PM] Ben: and that's not what I'm saying
[8:21:18 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's exactly what you're saying.
[8:21:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You're looking at it from a purely mathematical point of view.
[8:21:31 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not sociological, which you should be.
[8:21:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Most of the population has no reason to go and live in the hellhole fringe.
[8:21:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: When they are heavily infrastructured systems in reach
[8:22:08 PM] Ben: the outer to fringe systems have very small populations, but continue to attract people due to uncliamed mineral riches
[8:22:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Table.
[8:22:18 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You're copping out.
[8:22:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Stop copping out.
[8:22:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Think, please.
[8:22:27 PM] Ben: also, the fact that the SA is somewhat unpopular and seen as an imperialistic authority
[8:22:34 PM] Ben: what do you mean I'm copping out?
[8:22:35 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The core systems are not under SA.
[8:22:40 PM] Ben: Yes, they are!
[8:22:40 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Only SOl is.
[8:22:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: EE and TC are separate.
[8:22:51 PM] Ben: THey're ultimately subject to Sol Alliance laws
[8:22:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Republic of Biesel, Eridani Corporate Federation
[8:22:58 PM] Ben: semi-autonomous
[8:23:01 PM] Ben: semi-
[8:23:03 PM] Ben: kinda like a state
[8:23:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Independent Governance of Stormswrath(tm)
[8:23:15 PM] Ben: which i will be changing
[8:23:26 PM] Rusty Shackleford: But are you doing this with everyone's consent?
[8:23:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You do need consent from us.
[8:23:49 PM] Rusty Shackleford: A vote.
[8:23:55 PM] Ben: THe SA is the framwork a majority of the lroeteam agreed upon ,and the existing lore elements have to be adjusted to fit within it
[8:24:10 PM] Ben: where applicable
[8:24:15 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I agree somewhat. But there are flaws in the framework.
[8:24:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That I'm afraid that you won't admit.
[8:24:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That parts make no sense.
[8:24:29 PM] Ben: then tell me
[8:24:31 PM] Ben: about them
[8:24:33 PM] Ben: succinctly
[8:24:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm not going to read the whole thing again when I just got back from work and need sleep.
[8:24:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Just to present succint points.
[8:25:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: For telling you that your population distributions make no sense.
[8:25:08 PM] Rusty Shackleford: And straying from the fact
[8:25:13 PM] Rusty Shackleford: that you won't flesh out the systems that exist already
[8:25:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Because you want arbitrary new core worlds as a cop out.
[8:25:32 PM] Ben: what do you mean by cop out?
[8:25:35 PM] Ben: exactly?
[8:25:40 PM] Ben: How am I coping out?
[8:25:58 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You are avoiding doing something that you ought to do. Is the definition.
[8:26:07 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Which is flesh out the planets.
[8:26:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not leave it to everyone else.
[8:26:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That is your job. Our job.
[8:26:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Not just the framework.
[8:26:22 PM] Rusty Shackleford: That's a start.
[8:26:25 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You have to finish it.
[8:26:45 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Make it something that you could present to someone, say, look at this, it isn't just an arbitrary blob in space with a funny sounding name.
[8:27:14 PM] Ben: Our job is to provide an overall structure of the lore, a place where individual players can make their own sottries and that does not necessarily include mapping out every little detail
[8:27:34 PM] Rusty Shackleford: We don't need to map out every detail. But the detail that we have mapped out so far is grossly insufficient.
[8:27:34 PM] Ben: and if you can't see that, I don't really know what to tell you
[8:27:41 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Grossly insufficient.
[8:27:44 PM] Ben: I think it's at a decent level
[8:27:50 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's a cardboard cutout of what it could be
[8:27:56 PM] Rusty Shackleford: a grainy photograph
[8:28:10 PM] Rusty Shackleford: something "there" but not there at the same time.
[8:28:39 PM] Ben: I think there's a decent enough amout of information there right now
[8:28:50 PM | Edited 8:28:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The damn wiki is a scarecrow
[8:29:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: A couple of sparse pages, all WIP with the big green label.
[8:29:09 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Don't delude yourself.
[8:29:16 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's nowhere near finished.
[8:29:23 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's literally a backbone.
[8:29:25 PM] Ben: We have a good foundation, and we continue to make progress
[8:29:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: No flesh.
[8:29:47 PM] Ben: We don't need a bunch of pages of information on every single panet
[8:29:47 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's a backbone. What you're doing right now is detailing vertebrae before you even build the rest of the body.
[8:30:10 PM] Ben: Or maybe I'm trying to expand the universe we already have before we delve down deep into each section
[8:30:24 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The universe we have already is fuckin' immense
[8:30:27 PM] Rusty Shackleford: why don't you see that
[8:30:38 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You haven't even had me delve into alien space
[8:30:42 PM] Rusty Shackleford: or even tried to explain their history
[8:30:52 PM] Rusty Shackleford: just little bits on their respective pages
[8:30:54 PM] Ben: cause other people have done that
[8:31:11 PM] Ben: Unathi lore is being updates, same with Taaran lore
[8:31:14 PM] Ben: Tajaran*
[8:31:29 PM] Ben: and I didn't know you wanted to swork on aliens
[8:31:32 PM] Ben: ((work))
[8:31:44 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Tell me, Table, what is it you wanted to add as part of your "expanding unirverse" plan.
[8:31:51 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Besides more arbitrary core planets.
[8:31:56 PM] Ben: Two new systems, that's it
[8:32:04 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I gave you two new systems.
[8:32:04 PM] Ben: that's all I wanted in the beginning, that's al I want now
[8:32:17 PM] Rusty Shackleford: I'm already writing three more.
[8:32:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You don't need more systems.
[8:32:26 PM] Ben: but those can't support large scale settlements, and when I asked about having them populated, you said no
[8:32:34 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 5 planets, table.
[8:32:37 PM] Rusty Shackleford: 5 core planets.
[8:32:39 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Is more than enough.
[8:32:48 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The remaining systems can be middle colonies
[8:32:54 PM] Rusty Shackleford: the five that I've worked on
[8:32:55 PM] Ben: THen I'm going to rework them to be terraformed and have populations in the billions
[8:33:01 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Too large, table.
[8:33:08 PM] Rusty Shackleford: You're still not getting it.
[8:33:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: Numbers work that way.
[8:33:21 PM] Rusty Shackleford: People don't.
[8:33:59 PM] Rusty Shackleford: The average person's wants and needs are to be comfortable. Going to a planet that's being terraformed, a process that would take decades and cost billions of credits
[8:34:14 PM] Rusty Shackleford: It's not something that tends to have someone be comfortable.
[8:35:02 PM] Ben: that's all hypotheticals
[8:35:09 PM] Ben: people live comfortably in biodomes
[8:35:14 PM] Ben: it does but a cap on populations
[8:35:17 PM] Ben: put*
[8:35:25 PM] Ben: but when the process is done, you can really expand outwards
[8:35:34 PM] Ben: or make it like Mars with pockets of habitability
[8:36:12 PM] Rusty Shackleford: table
[8:36:19 PM] Rusty Shackleford: earlier you wanted to use the US as a model for population shift
[8:36:20 PM] Rusty Shackleford: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/12/17/who-moves-who-stays-put-wheres-home/