Maxam/PJC mid-run difficulty dicussion

Maxam: what's the default fps_max on latest steam version?
PJC is now Away.
Maxam: and isn't fps_override 1 needed to go >100?
PJC is now Online.
PJC: 72fps is the default on every version
Maxam: alright
Maxam: im not saying that i want to ban fps_max but to me, if we were to have wait and skill banned then fps_max should be on default
Maxam: for it to make the most theoretical sense
PJC: sometimes double standards are necessary
PJC: for example, if we were to apply that logic, we would either ban the scroll wheel or use autojump
PJC: which is a discussion that came and went a long time ago
Maxam: autojump is external?
PJC: yep
PJC: or not necessarily
PJC: or actually yes necessary
PJC: was gunna say you could whitelist certain scripts (jump, duck, use) but then you'd be at a disadvantage against someone with a free scrolling wheel or something along those lines
PJC: because with an autojump script there are only certain values that allow it to be frame perfect
PJC: in WON due to the 100fps cap you'd have to limit your fps to 83.333
PJC: but anyway, as i said that discussion has been had
Maxam: yeah and i dont see how it applies to this one
PJC: well my point is that with jumping/ducking/using you either have *no spam*, *some spam which depends on what mouse you have* and *full spam*
PJC: both some spam and full spam are external via hardware or software
PJC: so technically we should time our jumps with keys manually
PJC: but that rules out alot of bhopping
PJC: and nobody likes the idea of that, so you either need some spam or full spam
PJC: hence, a necessary double standard
PJC: that's what SWs beef with the scroll wheel is all about
Maxam: I see
PJC: he's technically right, but it's not even considered an issue by most
Maxam: he is but subjectiveness came into play
PJC: exactly
Maxam: the same with this current discussion
Maxam: but his discussion is a question about fairness
PJC: well fps_max is about fairness also
PJC: bcos as i said in the thread, banning it leads to hardware problems
Maxam: unless you run on default fps
PJC: what if someone gets unstable even on default?
Maxam: ok, so he gets lower fps maybe at some parts where it is benefitial, This would only be at friendly nps turning right?
Maxam: he would still have this unstable fps throughout the whole game and enemey npcs would turn and hurt him more and he would also have less air acc and worse bhops
Maxam: so i would say it cancels out if not makes the advantage negative
PJC: but you can't accurately assume that
PJC: besides, have you tried bhopping on 72fps?
Maxam: ive tried around 60 fps
Maxam: not the easiest thing
PJC: it's one of the reasons we chose not to run blue shift on WON (before we knew it was slower)
Maxam: because you would run bs on 72fps with won?
PJC: BS WON is capped to 72fps because it's based on a really old engine and never received any updates (presumably due to lack of multiplayer)
PJC: it was released as standalone also
PJC: well, it had 1 patch but that was to remove some features brought over from the dreamcast version
Maxam: yeah so what you do is play bs on steam version and use commands to get over 72fps
PJC: most ppl set their fps_max to 999.5 yeah, because the physics fix exists
Maxam: so all this only says that my assumption about having lower fps would be a disadvantage is closer to being right?
PJC: how so?
Maxam: i understood it as that you dont play bs on won version because it was hard to bhop with 72fps
PJC: at first when we were uncertain which version would be faster, yes
PJC: hard to time the bhops that is
PJC: via scroll wheel
PJC: easier to time via keys but still too hard
Maxam: So since Skill has nothing to do with fairness so there shouldnt be any double standards there?
Maxam: if fps_max is allowed then skill should be allowed otherwise that is a double standard
Maxam: fps_max i mean >72fps
PJC: no, i mean that if you ban all console-exclusive commands, allowing fps_max is a necessary double standard
PJC: which was the main point of my post in the thread
PJC: and even if you implement 72fps as the limit, that still leaves scenario 2 possible aswell as completely obsoleting the steam version
Maxam: because of fairness reasons it should be allowed you say
PJC: partially, yes
PJC: but as i also said, you would obsolete the steam version then
Maxam: but the scenario 2 is intentionally using means to lower your fps to get an advantage
Maxam: yeah you would
Maxam: or no
Maxam: because there is quickgauss
PJC: in SS then
Maxam: no
Maxam: because quickgauss is possible in SS
PJC: in bshift the
PJC: n
Maxam: yeah but you've said, changes should apply to whole goldsrc
PJC: that's what i mean
PJC: if you obsolete steam version, you obsolete it for all of goldsrc
Maxam: these are subjective arguments to not disallow fps_max
PJC: the steam version, yes
Maxam: yeh this is a i mean to say
PJC: because it's based on the fact that you can do "interesting" tricks with higher FPS
Maxam: yup, but it wouldnt matter unless you could use fps_max changes during a run as you say
PJC: but i don't think you can convince an entire community that we need to set our fps_max to 72 and never change it
PJC: besides the fact that you can't accurately assume the balance of negative/positive side effects from having unstable FPS
PJC: and i don't think you could convince the community that we need to disregard the steam version also
PJC: fortunately for the quake community they have jump buffering, so 72fps was an easy solution
Maxam: i mean the consequences of disallowing fps_max shouldnt have any dicision on Skill
Maxam: have any affect on the dicision on this skill topic*
PJC: i'm mainly talking about if you ban console-exclusive commands altogether
PJC: if not, then yes i agree
PJC: but i'm mainly just saying that if you do ban all console-exclusive commands, fps_max is a necessary exception
Maxam: i agree
Maxam: thinking of what i want
Maxam: not what is right
PJC: or at the very least, it would solve more problems than it would cause to allow it as an exception
Maxam: hmm i dont agree that it would solve more problems
Maxam: within the community yes
PJC: yes#
Maxam: but making runs more fair, no
PJC is now Online.
PJC: i suppose the bigger point is that doing what is the least arbitrary and the most "right" isn't always  the right thing to do because you have to balance it out with the fact that there's a community
Maxam: but it is not only right
Maxam: it is faster also
PJC: i meant with regards to the fps_max 72, banning scroll wheel etc
Maxam: yeah lets not consider that we've passed that
Maxam: so if you didnt include skill in what you meant that i would take that as you would agree of skill being allowed
Maxam: then I would*
PJC: well personally i don't like it and wouldn't want it to be allowed, but as i said in my post i think we should be thinking about a blacklist/whitelist of commands rather than thinking about if console-exclusive commands should be allowed at all
PJC: so in a sense you could argue that allowing it is the "right" thing to do, yes
PJC: but as i said, the "right" thing isn't always the right thing bcos it requires a balance with the community
PJC: i mean, there's a certain extent to what the community will go to i guess
PJC: before it becomes "not enjoyable" for them or w/e
Maxam: So if it is the right thing to do and it is at the same time faster and some people like it and some people don't. Do you understand what i meant with "Because, even if there's only one person who does not want to set this subjective limit, then it shouldn't be set." from the thread
PJC: yep, but then notarget should also be allowed with that logic
PJC: hence where community preference comes into play
Maxam: but notarget is generally cheat protected in most games and is clearny not intended by the developer
PJC: why does it matter if it is in most games
PJC: we're talking about HL
Maxam: because it's generally more accepted to change difficulty in games whereas notarget is generally considered a cheat
PJC: ok, so what about host_framerate?
Maxam: good point but host_framerate is dwelling pretty far from a normal playthrough
Maxam: so is fps_max changing for that matter
PJC: right, but where do you actually draw the line?
PJC: i mean, it's only far from a normal playthrough because the majority of people won't even know about it at first
PJC: and because most people prefer to play the game without slowmotion
PJC: this is essentially what airstrafers was saying, although allowing all non-cheat protected commands might be arguable as the "right" thing to do, the community preference has to come into play and create a balance
Maxam: I agree but to me Skill is such a small thing compared to fps_max so ofc Skill should be allowed from my point of view
PJC: ya, and that's where our preferences come into play and a vote is made to cater to the preference of the majority
PJC: if the result turns out as a "no", i wouldn't be opposed to a "misc" category for multi-skill btw
Maxam: at the same time if fps_max wasnt allowed i would still think that Skill would be allowed
Maxam: The thing is that people would vote on how it affects the community instead of how it affects the runs themselves
Maxam: and what a category is named after is less about what the community decides and more what fits the best
PJC is now Away.
Maxam: Also the current category Half-life Any% Hard should be called Half-Life Hard Singlesegment
PJC is now Away.
Maxam: With current goldsrc ruleset, Half-Life Any% would include RTA strats and Skill change and anything else reasonable*. If any category is arbitrary then it is the current HL1 one as it disallows RTA strats (and mid-run difficulty changing). *What is considered reasonable is based on general peoples thoughts (not only within the community).