RMT OU workshop

#Snowy: Workshop is starting! Modchat + will be in place
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Only users of rank + and higher can talk.
@Enki: Welcome everyone to the OU workshop
@Enki: today shui and I are going to host it
@Enki: We are going to rate the team you submitted in live
@Enki: shui3?
%shui3: I'm here
%shui3: ready
@Enki: cool
@Enki: the first team is submitted by Hector Hard Mode
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/7CezLKC3
Hector Hard Mode was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
+Hector Hard Mode: hello
@Enki: I see an heavy offense here with a suicide lead
@Enki: many setuppers
+fleggumfl: hy
@Enki: cool fleg is joining us :D
+Peef Rimgar: this is more of a general question than a critique, but why is fire blast the move of choice on azelf?
@Enki: because of steel types
@Enki: which resists to explosion
+king sun: because it hit ferro,bisharp,scizor
+Hector Hard Mode: dnite was initially superpower > fire punch and fsr a lot of people like to bring sciz in hard on low ladder
%shui3: yes steels wall dragnite azu and excadrill
%shui3: you have a very hard time vs mega Venu
+Hector Hard Mode: y
%shui3: but the matchup vs sand offense is not bad because you have azu and breloom, that's what ho teams tend to struggle with.
@Enki: honestly I'd go for band azu
@Enki: clefable looks like very annoying here
@Enki: and with band you can revenge kill most of ground resistor
@Enki: able to ko exca after a little chip damage
@Enki: which dragonite doesn't do
+Hector Hard Mode: band azu is a possibility, i was initially very concerned with being able to take out amoonguss for breloom
+Hector Hard Mode: which I was thinking only BD could do
%shui3: how about psychic on azelf
%Tricking: bulky grass won't come stay in against azelf tho :(
%Tricking: without come*
%shui3: the azu breloom combination is what bugs me
%Tricking: Yeah same
+Miridy: Hector, how do you fare against Offensive DDMalt? While Excadrill can revenge kill it, it risks eq, and if dragonite is locked to outrage, its only stab MAlt can easily go to +2 and here win easily
%shui3: yea dnite has to catch Malt on the switchin, but it has to be Mega evolved too
+Hector Hard Mode: offensive ddmalt is a problem yeah, when I was building I considered MAlt but given that alt was falling popularity at the time I wasn't worrying as much about that mu
+Miridy: well, actually if dnite happens to kill someone with outrage, it will be locked, and then altaria can mega evolve and setup
+Miridy: imo, dragonite should be removed
%shui3: iron tail on zard is an option, but eq has a lot of coverage and prevents from being walled by heatran
+Miridy: it only gives you problem, due to being another sr weak 'mon, you require even more support from excadrill
+Miridy: and really, rapid spin locked excadrill isn't helping
+Miridy: (assuming altaria doesn't catch you with earthquake on the switch)
%shui3: starmie>azu could work tbh, adds a spinner , a psychic type adn keeps the water resist in the team
%shui3: then there are other options on excadrill
%Tricking: this makes you much weaker to diancie
%Tricking: considering azelf is forced to switch out
+Hector Hard Mode: starmie is an idea but then excadrill = the weavile check
+Miridy: if we go by Enki's suggestion idk we might change 'nite with stallbreaker heatran, maybe with an Air baloon and Flash Cannon in order to give some insurance against malt. though at this point offensive Starmie>Excadrill should also happen
+Miridy: helping the team gaining another Keldeo's check not burn weak, also Starmie revengekills Diancie and heatran with Baloon wins the 1v1 vs diancie
@Enki: and you don't need exca as your weavile check, since it doesnt even check it
+Miridy: well, azumarill and zard x still do something against weav
@Enki: azumarill is a better solution, also you can revence kill it better with band without taking any damange
+Hector Hard Mode: my point was not that exca is a check but that removing azu means that there isn't really one
%Tricking: yeah you should keep azu
+Hector Hard Mode: yeah, balloon tran sounds nice to plug up the hole for azu
@Enki: none said you have to remove azuma
@Enki: also I'd go for roost zard X
+Miridy: actually, we said to keep azu but make it banded
%Tricking: the point is
@Enki: you have my solutions to heatran
%Tricking: if he doesn't remove azu, he has no room for hazards removal
@Enki: and zard X seem to be your only solution to elecitrics
@Enki: which destroys your team
+Miridy: why? He can change Exca for Starmie
%Tricking: and tran over dnite then?
+Miridy: yup
@Enki: oh right then
@Enki: bulk DD zard X fits pretty well here
%Tricking: it should work
%shui3: zard should be jolly too
%DennisEG: Hello
@Enki: checks electrics and set up late game cleaner
%Tricking: hi dennis
+Miridy: idk, but I'd make it jolly @zard, due to lando's rise
@Enki: Roost over EQ Anyway
%shui3: so our idea is now heatran>dnite, starmie>exca?
@Enki: I think we're right for the moment with this rate, anything should be added raters? I am fine
@Enki: yes shui
@Enki: do you have any question hector?
+Hector Hard Mode: nothing in particular ty
@Enki: thx for submitting your team and gl
@Enki: let us know
(Hector Hard Mode was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
@Enki: the next team is submitted by samjo
samjo ♥ was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/x3YUht4v
@Enki: Hi
%Tricking: Another zard x team
@Enki: lol
+samjo ♥: :]
%shui3: ok
%shui3: so you want to pressure ground types immensly with raikou + zard ?
%DennisEG: It seem HO with a random mew
@Enki: yeah haha
%shui3: mew gets rid of tran with ep
%shui3: is his thought probably
@Enki: I'd remove instatly mew for something like tornadus
%DennisEG: Lead Azelf + Stallbreaker Serp. Leaf/synthe/taunt/hp fire
+samjo ♥: i just wanted to try my hand at volt turn HO, and xard i didn't have a solid team for so yeah
@Enki: or something that can take kazam mega and normal
+samjo ♥: the mew is because i kept losing to venu tran core
+Miridy: is hp fire on serperior really that useful here? Maybe we could give hp ground to serp
%shui3: what about sd zard X, to break past hippo with +2 flare blitz, so raikou can volt all day ?
+samjo ♥: so the mew, ep +psychic :^)
%DennisEG: I like hp ground serp yeah to lure tran for zard x
%DennisEG: I put lead azelf and taunt on serp to prevents rox
+samjo ♥: that seems kinda shaky hazard control no?
@Enki: azlef outspeeds most of rockers
%DennisEG: And replace zor for escarf exca
@Enki: beeing able to taunt them
+Miridy: well tbf sr+defog on a lead that doesn't even have recovery might end up problematic
+samjo ♥: that slot used to be latias
+king sun: i think he can use this set for mew : knock off,wow,softboiled,defog
%shui3: I think I got something. sd zard X to break hippo and other grounds, so raikou can volt switch freely. latios >mew as hazard removal and then we need to find a place for rocks
%shui3: also +2 dclaw does a ton to heatran, so lati can drop dracos more freely
%DennisEG: We need speed + bird check cuz torn is a pain
%shui3: av azu can check it
+samjo ♥: so SD zard runs tailwind right?
%shui3: if we change it such
%shui3: sd, dclaw, flare blitz
%shui3: adamant
%shui3: we have to discuss the last move later imo
%DennisEG: We need roost
+samjo ♥: ooh i like latios with eq memento psy defog for venu tran + chances for zard x SD set up
+samjo ♥: thoughts, or too dank?
+Miridy: hmm now that I think about it
%shui3: yes why not, it's ho anyway
+Miridy: there might be a way in order to keep sr, defog and something that can scare tornadus
+Miridy: have you considered ew latios over serperior, pursuit weavile over scizor, toxic sr lando over mew?
%DennisEG: Then we're weak to fairies
+Miridy: While you lose the steel you still have a fairy, create a volturn chain in roder to help zard x setup, while also giving easy entry for Weavile, toxic can lure in hippowdon for you and you keep both sr and defog
%DennisEG: Steel is needed
+Miridy: ehh, ik
%shui3: jirachi does ok against torn, if it doenst have heat wave
%DennisEG: Scarf Exca > zor, lead azelf and stallbreaker Serp could be a version
%shui3: jirachi>sciz, lando Tserp? because serp and lati cover similar threats defensivly
%shui3: *lando>serp
%DennisEG: Mmm now bish becpm
+Miridy: scarfrachi? if not weavile gives problems
%DennisEG: Become a problem
%shui3: for weav we have azu
%shui3: but bish is really a problem then
%DennisEG: Helmet chomp over lando maybe works
%shui3: then he is really weak to exca sand n_n
%DennisEG: Azu check it
%shui3: but he has to be able to tank a hit from lo exca, otherwise he loses
%shui3: comp gets 2hkod by eq
%shui3: after little damage
%DennisEG: He can play around, it's offense after all
%DennisEG: He can chip dmg with helmet so jet kills
%shui3: so we are at
%shui3: lati>mew, lando/chomp>serp?
%DennisEG: Y
%shui3: an easy solution to bisharp would be keldeo>azu, but thenopposing lati puts in too much work
%shui3: so I don't want to suggest it
%shui3: I
%shui3: I'd like to change the azu set, ideas ?
+samjo ♥: we still on av?
+samjo ♥: >belly jet?
@Enki: Miridy, what if we add sashexca over Lando for a steel type, though?
%shui3: that was my idea, but noone responded
@Enki: we have to go for that, this rate is taking so much
+Miridy: sashexca as in ih rs sr eq?
@Enki: and we have to go over
@Enki: y
+Miridy: umm, can I suggest baloon on raikou? D:
%shui3: n
+samjo ♥: b-b-but specs volt
@Enki: I think we're fine for that
@Enki: keep specs kou
@Enki: any question?
+Miridy: exca would help, though if we go with that
+Miridy: we need one last fine tune
+Miridy: for ground moves
@Enki: any question samjo?
+samjo ♥: hmm, none for now thanks :]
@Enki: welk man, thx for submitting your team
@Enki: gl with it ^^
(samjo ♥ was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
(samjo ♥ was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
@Enki: Phaenon is the next
%shui3: pls no zard X
@Enki: pls faster that that pls
Phaenon was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
+Phaenon: haha don't worry, no zard x here
+Phaenon: hi guys
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/nhkm7Vdp
%shui3: nice Garde+bish
+Phaenon: thank you
%shui3: what does your raikou set do?
%shui3: never seen that spread ^^
+Phaenon: it's my replacement for what was first rotom-w, then zapdos
+Phaenon: I can explain the EVs
+Phaenon: the EVs have mainly Keldeo in mind, ensuring that I can come in on SR and take a specs hydro pump, and then I'm faster with the t-bold/volt switch
+Miridy: regardless, you should at least being able to outspeed serperior
+Phaenon: and enough SpA to have a chance to OHKO without rocks
%shui3: slowbro is your keldeo switchin
+Phaenon: right now it's at just enough for thundurus
%shui3: what do 40 spA on slowbro do?
+Phaenon: I don't remember...
%shui3: that way you can't take a draco after rocks iirc
+Phaenon: I could probably do without it
%shui3: just go max hp
+Phaenon: alright
+Phaenon: should I take EVs out of SpA on Raikou to give to speed for Serp? or Def?
@Enki: honestly with taht bisharp's spread I'd go for the AV
@Enki: max speed raikou
@Enki: and make max speed max spa heatran
@Enki: stallbreaker
@Enki: beeing able to use earth power
@Enki: with taunt or toxic over roar
+Phaenon: hmm...that's a little concerning because Roar has been pretty crucial on Heatran
+Miridy: the only valuable speed benchmark for a 204 bisharp and a max speed bisharp is Crawdaunt iirc
+Miridy: hmm enki, what about fire blast on slowbro?
%shui3: slowbro saps a lot of momentum on that team
+Miridy: should help lureing out sdef mory, scizor and ferro for garde
@Enki: sounds good for me, lures well since you already have tran
@Enki: could be unexpected
@Enki: anything else to add guys?
+Phaenon: what are the spread suggestions for Raikou/Bish?
%shui3: max speed max spA
%shui3: on raikou
@Enki: Phaenon anyother question?
+Phaenon: yeah, a couple quick ones
@Enki: go for it
+Phaenon: so giving bish AV, keep spread?
@Enki: you can keep the orb, but max speed
+Phaenon: also what would you replace on slowbro for fire blast? psyshock? that makes it less of a keldeo check
+Miridy: ps
+Miridy: keldeo doesn't stay in and if it does
+Miridy: you can paralyze it
+Phaenon: I'll try it then
@Enki: cool, let us know and gl
+Phaenon: thanks
(Phaenon was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
@Enki: Technetium43: http://pastebin.com/d8rRqy8m
Technetium43 was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
@Enki: Hi
%shui3: the knock off zam
%DennisEG: Sand off and bish is a problem
+king sun: first of all i think you can use amoonguss>celebi because it counter better keld,mega diancie,and he can counter mega lop which are a pain
@Enki: the guy seem to be afk
+Miridy: baton pass on celebi seems like a cool idea, it would help much more against stall than knock 'zam
@Enki: guss loses a lot of momentum anyway, celebi fits ok because of the plot, I'd go for the pass anyway
+Miridy: lol synchro
%shui3: celebi needs a more def spread to seitch into lopunny and other strong attacks
+king sun: 108spe 152def and the rest on hp are good on celebi with bold
%shui3: 148 and 112 n_n
%shui3: bold
%DennisEG: I like Jolly Dnite to outpace Lopu after +1
+Miridy: can we go 200 speed on celebi? You still win 1v1 against Lopunny but you outspeed hoopa and get to pass the plot to diancie who resists dark
%shui3: yea bp>earth power on celebi to pass into one of the special attackers is a nice idea, especally afainst bulkier builds
%DennisEG: Althought having rp diancie, make me wanna go with CB Dnite
+fleggumfl: is the workshop still going on i was playing for tours and watching spl games
+fleggumfl: :o
%DennisEG: Yeah it is
%shui3: celebi still tanks hits from lopuny with 284 speed after incestment
%shui3: investment
+Miridy: y
%shui3: but what switches in on a hoopa attack
+Miridy: well hoopa CAN switch in on celebi
+Miridy: due to the sdef
+Miridy: as she nplots
@Enki: cool
@Enki: I think we are ok for now, we'll take it later if he comes back
(Technetium43 was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
Xflu was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
@Enki: Hi Xflu
+Xflu: Hello
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/wv8dJXw0
%shui3: ok, looks solid at the first glance. why did you choose that scizor spread ?
+Xflu: Its the basic smogon set, but i gave it more def to to something which i dont remenber
%shui3: to survive the 2hko from Lopunny's Hjk?
+Xflu: No
%shui3: ok but a set with 44 def impish
%shui3: avoids it
+Xflu: thats nice
%shui3: 200 spD lets you switch into dracos + hp fire
+Miridy: how do you fare against rain teams and keldeo+pursuit user?
%shui3: and U-turn > knock off gives your team momentum, so you can bring kyurem in savely
+Xflu: Rain teams are hard, i noticed that
+Miridy: mostly kingdra, though
%shui3: def run roost on latias or even go for latios, which hits harder
%shui3: you need the keldeo check
%shui3: because it comes in on scizor al; the time
+Xflu: true
%shui3: your idea was a balance team right ?
+Xflu: ye
%shui3: hippowdon checks a lot more stuff and generally fits better on balance
%shui3: also a way to remove rain
+Miridy: hm interesting
+Miridy: if we add stone edge hippo, we can change heatran for assault vest tangrowth
%shui3: then kyurem LO, you need it to 2hko clefable with modest
%shui3: ice beam
+Xflu: should hippo be physical wall or mixed
%shui3: but generally I'd go with 285 speed, to outspeed hoopa, to which yuour team doenst like to switch in
+Miridy: mixed, thundurus with knock off might give you problems
%shui3: mixed
%shui3: do you have the set ?
+Xflu: yes
%shui3: k that was for the def core
%shui3: scarf keldeo ?
+Xflu: do i make it whirlwind or stone eddge?
%shui3: stone edge for talon
%shui3: and thundi
+Xflu: Now should i use Miridy idea of changing heatran to a tangrowth?
%shui3: you can even run 288 speed to outspeed gyara which hits 287
%shui3: on kyurem
+Miridy: imo
+Miridy: you can add either tangrowth or slowbro
+Miridy: hippowdon helps you against talonflame @ancientpower
+Miridy: regardless, both tangrowth and slowbro can help you against keldeo+pursuit user and rain teams
%shui3: tangrowth has similar defensive capailities like latios
%shui3: but sinde the team is really keldeo+ttar weak
%shui3: it could work out here
+Xflu: i can see ferro being kinda of a nuisance
%shui3: yea
+Xflu: hp fire?
+Miridy: try hp fire
+Xflu: ye ok
%shui3: so what is your final team now ?
%shui3: yu really need something to break fatter teams
+Xflu: tangrowth av, kyurem-b 288 speed, m-scizor u-t, latias roost instead of healing wish, mixed hippo and scarf keldeo
+Miridy: hmm, maybe switch back to healing wish now that we have tang? Would help Kyub breaking fat teams
+Xflu: true
%shui3: healing which is more for offense
%shui3: *wish
%shui3: I don't think it fits on that team
+Xflu: do i just change it for something
+Xflu: the latias
+Xflu: like a starmie
%shui3: no healing wish then latios
+Xflu: or latios, thats fine too
%shui3: I don't like the scarf on keldeo
+Xflu: what sugestions do you have?
%shui3: I'm thinking of sub calm mind
%shui3: for stallier teams
+Xflu: And thats everything?
@Enki: do you have any question?
+Xflu: I dont and i apreciate the changes and the patience you had to help me :)
+Xflu: Thank you for your time
@Enki: np gl
(Xflu was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
@Enki: the last team is submitted by TTorquato
TTorquato was promoted to Room Voice by Enki.
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/wv8dJXw0
+TTorquato: hey :D
+Miridy: it's the one from before enki
@Enki: mmyb
@Enki: sry
@Enki: http://pastebin.com/GRZ66Kxt
%shui3: cool nicknames
+TTorquato: i had a starmie instead of conkeldurr, and her name was STAR LORD
+king sun: i think you need a keld swich in
%shui3: yea
+TTorquato: well, i find water types to be a problem for me
+king sun: you can use starmie and put Sd over r.spin on exca
+Miridy: uh yeah, cb azu is also problematic
%shui3: celebi or amoonguss for sand
%shui3: do you wnt to keep Mpidgey no matter what ?
+TTorquato: yea
%shui3: cause Torn-T outclasses it in many ways
+TTorquato: yep, i know about that, but i wanted to make a team around mpidg
%shui3: so need something for azu and keldoe
+TTorquato: i had a bulky starmie before instead of colkedurr
%shui3: do we go with nasty pass celebi again?
+TTorquato: idk why i changed, but it was scald/recover/spin/icebeam
+king sun: also stone edge>rock slide on hippo for mmore power against torn-t
%shui3: I don't think you need starmie because exca spins already
+Miridy: celebi is cool, I would also opt for jolly on exca and smooth for hippo
%shui3: celebi>conk then
+Miridy: since if we remove conk, sd exca, esp. baloon variants is a problem, at least exca ties/outspeeds adamants
%shui3: we could also run baloon sd and hope for the speed tie
%shui3: n_n
+Miridy: y
%shui3: but his team is hazard stack
%shui3: so starmie would be nice tbh
+Miridy: oh mb didn't read sr
+Miridy: idk, it's true that exca without lo is a bit weka, but you have spikes to compensate here
+Miridy: weak
%shui3: starmie>celebi?
%shui3: and sd on exca, with rock slide, to break through skamory
+king sun: also i think you don t have really swich in for LO torn-t :0
%shui3: oh that thing has no switchons
+king sun: lol that true
%shui3: klekfi is the clostest thing, then hope he has no heat wave
+TTorquato: hey, i think kyurem-b is a threat too
+Miridy: if you go with air baloon on excadrill it's a bit easier to pivot it
+TTorquato: oh yea
%shui3: Miridy what do you think of starmie on that team
+Miridy: not sold tbh
+king sun: you can counter it with klefki,you have magnet rise and hp fire variant doesnt get damage enought to beat klefki,also you can twave it
%shui3: lati fits better imo, for zard Y
+Miridy: defog-less lati?
%shui3: yea, we have a lot of options on lati then
%shui3: roost, draco, psy + ?
+Miridy: eq for heatran for example, huh
+king sun: eq on lati is good ,yeah
%shui3: or cm for fat teams
+king sun: cm+stabs is nice
+Miridy: I guess, though a great deal of 'em have scarftar anyways
+Miridy: I suppose both are cool, latios gives more "oomph" than defensive starmie
%shui3: http://pastebin.com/gZmq7nYX how does this look
+Miridy: oh btw
+Miridy: max the ivs if you don't plan to use any hps
+TTorquato: oh, forgot to change it back, i was using hp ground
+TTorquato: thats the reason for those iv's haha
%shui3: http://pastebin.com/xuHGR9QF version with sd exca
+TTorquato: hm, with lati my team would still be weak against azu, right?
%shui3: on the sd exca version we should put a lure for skamory on lati imo
+Miridy: if you think azu is a problem try tbolt>psyshock
%shui3: yes
+Miridy: gets you enough to kill sitrus
%shui3: Tbolt works here
+Miridy: also
%shui3: cause you either boost with exca or lati imo
+Miridy: against cb, just make sure it takes sr and a turn of sand
%shui3: 2 vesions of the team
@Enki: try both versions
+TTorquato: hmm, i'll try
+Miridy: imo now that I think about it
+TTorquato: on the Exca and hippo, should i rock slide or stone edge
@Enki: edge
+Miridy: cb azu might be another reaosn to use smooth rock for hippo, other than supporting exca
+Miridy: reason
%shui3: you can even go roar bc of hazards
@Enki: I agree with shui
@Enki: man do you have any question?
+TTorquato: hmm, i'm just lost into so many different points
+TTorquato: but i guess i'll have to test them out
%shui3: ferro>klefki is also an option to test
@Enki: yeah
@Enki: let us know anyway
@Enki: thx for beeing here and submitting your team
@Enki: let us know about it
+TTorquato: ok
+TTorquato: ty for your time
(TTorquato was demoted to Room regular user by Enki.)
@Enki: Thanks everyone for beeing here, the workshop is done for today.
+king sun: :]
@Enki: I'd thank in particular shui3 and miridy for helping me while hosting it
+Miridy: thanks Enki for telling me the time for it D:
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