<Boilerplate> I guess this is proof that this entire "War on Terror" is really nothing based on sheer racism alone: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/06/17/3456263/list-of-indefinite-detainees.html
<GameOver> Title: List of indefinite detainees - More Info - MiamiHerald.com (at www.miamiherald.com)
<djr013> usually referring to splits, inter-organization drama, etc
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<kilobug> Boilerplate: no, "war on terror" isn't based on racism alone, it's based on the needs to control the oil supplies, the racism part is just how to make the masses tolerate it
<Boilerplate> Well thing is we live in the Oil Standard
<Boilerplate> Makes me wonder that the Oil Buisnesses and this entire war in the Middle East are connected
<Boilerplate> Although here's more news about about it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22949561
<GameOver> Title: BBC News - US reveals Guantanamo indefinite detainees (at www.bbc.co.uk)
<Boilerplate> I think the point is it proves that white/privledge exists
<kilobug> this whole "you're neither a criminal offender with the right of fair trial, nor a prisonner of war with the Geneva convention protection" is just sick
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<kilobug> it's even sick within bourgeois ethics
<negativecreep1> jup
<Boilerplate> ^
<Boilerplate> Of course ever noticed that all these people in there are all arabs/muslims which is also a noteworthy point out
<negativecreep1> the other day I heard a story from some lawyer that defends some of the detainees. Apparently the ability to make phone-calls revealed to much shocking stuff so now they have to get a finger up the arse before they get to call, just for intimidation
<negativecreep1> Also, the torture they use is obviously racist and determined to atack their religious practices.
<Boilerplate> ^ Yep that's what this entire thing is about
<Boilerplate> Oil and Racism
<kilobug> oil is the goal, racism the means; but yeah it makes an awful combo
<negativecreep1> Like, a female interrogator would strip and then give the detainee a lap-dance, then they would convince the detainee that he got menstrual-blood on him and then take away his shower-"privileges". The idea behind that is that without shower he can't get the menstrual blood off and he isn't allowed to pray, according to Islam.
<negativecreep1> They also make the detainees move to other parts of the camp at praying-time, just so they can't pray.
<negativecreep1> It's absolutely sickening.
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<Boilerplate> It's called the White Christian Male domination of the world
<negativecreep1> The tubes they use for the force-feeding has a iron point now to hurt the hunger strikers more
<jacobian> <modulus> i'm neither as pessimistic about syndicalism nor as certain that it's infeasible to join political and syndical work as some others here
<jacobian> You can politicise unions, but you can't get a union on the basis of a political commonality, you need strength.
<jacobian> On the question of pessimism, I don't see any reason to believe that syndicalism will go into terminal decline
<jacobian> Union density has been decreasing everywhere since the late 70s
<jacobian> Number of industrial actions has been declining as well
<jacobian> The size of workplaces has been shrinking in the US
<Boilerplate> I got a question on Israel though...one would say "How come the Jews got their own country but not the Native Americans, Africans, etc?"
<jacobian> unemployment is at a higher level than before the crisis - which also militates against recovery of union density or strength
<jacobian> I see no objective factors which would lead to better conditions for syndicalism
<nuit> Boilerplate: africans?
<jacobian> I think we need to see it as rearguard action
<kilobug> Boilerplate: the white christian male part is not the main factor... it's just an excuse to get more popular support, but if you see how they behaved during the Condor Plan, where the victims were massively white christian males, there is no significant difference
<Boilerplate> I mean Congoians if you read what King Leopold did
<nuit> yeah, they did all sorts of fucked up shit
<nuit> but congo exists
<negativecreep1> well
<negativecreep1> they did have problems with Lumumba and helped in assassinating him
<kilobug> Boilerplate: US imperialists will violate the rights of anyone who is between them and their economical interests, it doesn't matter if the one is an "arab muslim from the middle-east" or a "white christian from latin america"
<negativecreep1> then they got a more pro-west, and fascistic leader and then they were okay with Congo existing.
<Boilerplate> I guess what I said about Israel is wrong then?
<nuit> what did you say? i havent seen it
<Boilerplate> <Boilerplate> I got a question on Israel though...one would say "How come the Jews got their own country but not the Native Americans, Africans, etc?"
<nuit> i wouldnt say that its really comparable
<kilobug> Boilerplate: "africans" are wide term, and "africans" have many countries; but for the rest yes, it holds
<Boilerplate> I think the point was that the Jews were victims of Genocide i.e. the Holocaust but they got their own country after it though.
<Boilerplate> but not the Native Americans and such
<djr013> jacobian: Yeah, it's often referred to as the casualisation of labor.
<negativecreep1> Malcolm X was for an independent african country in his Muslim days
<nuit> well, the native americans got some territories etc but it isnt really comparable since jews were spread out all over other countries
<jacobian> It's a poor basis for syndicalism
<nuit> plus, you have to look at it historically
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<Boilerplate> Of course next time if I ever come across a anti-semite who describes themselves as "Anti-Zionists"
<djr013> jacobian: Not that it particularly means much, but some have speculated that that casualisation means a possible re-emergence of old IWW tactics of organizing unstable workers.
<Boilerplate> who would probably point that out and what should I say?
<nuit> point what out?
<Boilerplate> read my previous post
<jacobian> Yeah, except the old IWW tactics never worked that well anyhow
<nuit> well, i just told you
<jacobian> The IWW was never a very impressive syndicalist organisation
<djr013> In agriculture, it worked very well.
<kilobug> Boilerplate: native americans were definitely victims of a genocide
<nuit> jews were all spread out, didnt have one single place where they were like native americans
<djr013> As well as shipyards.
<nuit> they lived in different countries
<nuit> well
<nuit> they still do
<djr013> Timber too.
<Boilerplate> So what is Israel entire existence based on then?
<Boilerplate> and why and how was it created
<jacobian> The high-point was about 40k members
<nuit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
<GameOver> Title: History of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
<Boilerplate> Although "White Colonalism of the Middle East" comes to mind
<nuit> i suggest starting here
<jacobian> And shipyards have always been fairly easy to organise for unions
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<nuit> yes, it was a british colony before
<djr013> https://iww.org.uk/node/161
<GameOver> Title: Agency and Casual Workers | iww.org.uk (at iww.org.uk)
<nuit> whats more common now, though, at least in europe
<nuit> is to have anti-semitic zionists
<nuit> like brievik
<jacobian> Casual workers are industrially weak workers
<jacobian> Which means that focus on casual work is a strategy of industrial weakness.
<jacobian> If more workers are going towards casualisation it means more workers are becoming industrially weak
<jacobian> Which is why syndicalism is not liable to be a real strong long term tendency
<Boilerplate> Of course anti-semitic conspriacy theorists think Israel is a "capital of the NWO" or it was put there to "fufill bibical prophecy" and it is "controlling the world and driving it"
<djr013> That's the thing, we're prepared to accept those economic conditions and organize within them.
<nuit> yes, those are just silly
<nuit> we need to be able to criticize israel for its actions (and theres plenty to criticize) without going into antisemitism and conspiracy theories
<jacobian> http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/union-membership-1900-2007-500x329.png
<jacobian> You're prepared to take one tactic, elevate it to a strategy and ignore the objective conditions
<Boilerplate> Unfortuintly my Dad believes in this crap though and he thinks that Israel controls the U.S. and it's reason why we're in the Middle East is because "getting of nations that Israel doesn't like"
<nuit> most leftist jewish public figures are highly critical of israel
<jacobian> I'm 100% supportive of socialists organising in the trade unions and increasing militancy of trade unions
<jacobian> But it's just not going to be the strategy which brings the working class to power
<jacobian> So you need to take a broader look at the landscape
<nuit> Boilerplate: is he a libertarian? nazi?
<kilobug> Boilerplate: I would say it's more the other way around; Israel is important for the US because it gives them a stronghold from which to dominate the region and its ressources
<djr013> (10:32:20 AM) jacobian: You're prepared to take one tactic, elevate it to a strategy and ignore the objective conditions
<Boilerplate> He probably even thinks that 9/11 was done by Israel/Mossad who knows
<djr013> No, we're prepared to organize that type of worker among others.
<kilobug> Boilerplate: rather than the US dominating the region for the saftey of Israel
<nuit> Boilerplate: a common claim is that AIPAC is the largest spender on lobbying
<nuit> if he claims that just point him to http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s&showYear=2013
<GameOver> Title: Lobbying Spending Database | OpenSecrets (at www.opensecrets.org)
<Boilerplate> Well he does read conspriacy sites like Micheal Rivero's "whatreallyhappened" though and I remember him that he supports Ron Paul
<Boilerplate> well he supported Ron Paul actually
<jacobian> The main reason the IWW focuses on casual workers is because the other unions which are more effective ignore them, hence there isn't any competition.    That means the IWW get the dregs, the precarious who will generally lose.  They may get a bigger slice of the pie when more workers become precarious, but they'll never be very strong industrially on that basis.
<djr013> On what basis would the IWW become strong, then?
<nuit> yeah Boilerplate im sure that sucks
<nuit> my cousin constantly talks about conspiracy theories
<jacobian> If it were organising electrical grids, the train lines, longshore etc.
<Boilerplate> nuit: Let's just my Dad is this: http://thesoapboxrantings.blogspot.com/2013/06/not-all-conspiracy-theorists-are.html
<GameOver> Title: The Soap Box: Not all Conspiracy Theorists are Conspiracy Theorists (at thesoapboxrantings.blogspot.com)
<nuit> wakes up in the middle of the night cause hes paranoid someone is coming for him
<nuit> stopped leaving the house
<nuit> etc
<jacobian> the problem is that all of these things will be under attack from greater casualisation
<jacobian> The Dutch automated the fuck out of the longshoreman
<jacobian> It will spread
<Boilerplate> He's a conspiracy believer and not to mention he's from the Hippie generation as well
<jacobian> Eventually there will be no train operators, no bus drivers, no truckers
<jacobian> And that "eventually" is not too far in the future
<nuit> werent hippies leftist?
<jacobian> No
<Boilerplate> Well also there's also the New Agers as well
<jacobian> Hippies were drug addled individualists suffering from the internalisation of capitalist individualism
<negativecreep1> some were leftists
<jacobian> None of them
<jacobian> They were all on drugs
<negativecreep1> non-sense
<nuit> yes but werent they mostly like utopian socialists
<Boilerplate> Yep my Dad was a druggie during his youth
<jacobian> negativecreep1, :)
<djr013> jacobian: Your contention seemingly isn't one of casualisation, it's one of targeted industry.
<jacobian> djr013, ?
<jacobian> The argument isn't that complicated djr013
<jacobian> There is an objective trend towards decentralisation, smaller workforces in weaker jobs with higher unemployment and greater labour supply
<jacobian> this is bad for syndicalist strategy full stop
<djr013> You start out by saying that the IWW's focus on (or at least, accomodation of) casual workers is a failing strategy, and summarize by saying it should target infrastructure.
<jacobian> No, I'm saying that syndicalist strategy needs to have critical infrastructure in order to be strong
<jacobian> But in the end, this too will slip away due to the changing nature of the economy
<djr013> Well yes, that is obvious.
<jacobian> Hence not only is syndicalism unlikely to work
<jacobian> But that particular syndicalism is doubly bad
<djr013> rofl
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<jacobian> It's going to be the fringe of a declining union strength
<jacobian> maybe the fringe will increase in size,  but it will remain industrially weak
<jacobian> And that means it can either face up and organise as a party
<jacobian> Or it can just be weak
<Boilerplate> Oh another thing too about the bombing in Syria by Israel my Dad thinks it's just Israel trying to get us into WWIII.
<djr013> How would a party decide to organize the working class?
<djr013> With the assumption that the major unions are dead as well.
<Boilerplate> Well guess what none of that didn't happen
<nuit> Boilerplate: does he try to predit when WWIII will start?
<jacobian> They aren't dead, they are in historic decline
<jacobian> They should be treated as an important rear-guard
<djr013> We're assuming syndicalism has died.
<nuit> sometimes they even like to give specific dates
<djr013> It's industrially powerless.
<nuit> based on when wars in the past happened
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<jacobian> No, I'm saying as a main strategy its mental - as a tactic to supplement a broader movement its important.
<Boilerplate> He belives that Israel is using the U.S. to start WWIII for one and also belives that attacking Iran would draw in Russia as well
<djr013> So basically, unions as get-out-the-vote vehicles.
<jacobian> It will not grow to the extent that it can challenge capital, and if you can't grow you are doomed.
<jacobian> Well, that's about the extent of what a precarious base would give you
<jacobian> But having core infrastructure means you can actually do industrial action
<fuzzyhorns> hi all
<jacobian> Like the CGT
<jacobian> (France)
<djr013> So rear-guard to you means having that infrastructure?
<djr013> Or does it mean "organizing" the working class to support your party?
<jacobian> No, that's always the case that to have effective industrial action you need important industry
<Boilerplate> nuit: Since he believes that Russia has a "mutual defense pact with Iran/Syria"
<jacobian> What is the difference between trying to get people into the IWW and having them join a party djr013 ?
<djr013> I'm not sure I understand what value you place in your idea of syndicalism as a rear-guard to your party.
<djr013> jacobian: Taking action on the job.
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