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Pheonyx

Philosophical Game Chat

Pheonyx
Dec 11th, 2013
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  1. I want the machine from Alicization arc
  2. [9:53:58 PM] Kluck: Which is what, sorry/
  3. [9:54:11 PM] Rabla: Its like...
  4. [9:54:18 PM] *** Didrik McCay Wickman sent IMG_11122013_135420.png ***
  5. [9:54:21 PM] Rabla: how the fuck do i explain this
  6. [9:54:23 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: wip time
  7. [9:54:47 PM] Rabla: imagine
  8. [9:54:54 PM] Rabla: They get a NervGear setup
  9. [9:55:00 PM] Rabla: they go in to an empty gameworld
  10. [9:55:04 PM] Rabla: spawn four AI
  11. [9:55:16 PM] Rabla: The players teach them how to be human
  12. [9:55:29 PM] Rabla: And they ACT human, and they have whole lives and brains and shit
  13. [9:55:34 PM] Rabla: And then you leave
  14. [9:55:39 PM] Pheonyx: sweet haxorus
  15. [9:55:48 PM] Rabla: You let the simulation run for 500 years
  16. [9:55:51 PM] Rabla: go back in
  17. [9:55:55 PM] Rabla: and its like a real world
  18. [9:56:05 PM] Rabla: Thats the Alicization machine
  19. [9:56:17 PM] Kluck: So...
  20. [9:56:21 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: thanks, line works not the most entertaing part but this is actually pretty fun
  21. [9:56:21 PM] Rabla: Theres no AI scripts or anything, its real personality and thoughts
  22. [9:56:29 PM] Kluck: Its a vr.... of the real world
  23. [9:56:38 PM] Rabla: It CAN be
  24. [9:56:50 PM] Rabla: If you set it up and keep the world constant like that
  25. [9:57:00 PM] Rabla: Or it can be... say, Skyrim
  26. [9:57:31 PM] Rabla: But every mention of a backstory is a REAL backstory and instead of a few lines an NPC has its real generated speech
  27. [9:57:59 PM] Rabla: And every single thing in that game is there because something happened once in that universe to cause it to happen
  28. [9:58:09 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Yeah I wouldn't want that
  29. [9:58:14 PM] Rabla: I want that.
  30. [9:58:22 PM] Rabla: Thats the end-all of gaming
  31. [9:58:34 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: KANS BACK
  32. [9:58:39 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: What shit is Rabla saying now?
  33. [9:58:41 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: That sounds like the perfect way to give yourself a mindbreaking existentialism crisis
  34. [9:59:03 PM] Pheonyx: sounds like developer hell
  35. [9:59:04 PM] Rabla: You'd be less willing to kill a guy, thats for sure
  36. [9:59:37 PM] Kluck: Can't wait for mass suicides in the real world
  37. [10:00:00 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Yeah that's part of my problem. I wouldn't wanna play a game where I'd be bound by the same rules as in the real world
  38. [10:00:19 PM] Rabla: Thats... whats the word
  39. [10:00:23 PM] Rabla: objectionable?
  40. [10:00:28 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: OBJECTION!
  41. [10:00:31 PM] Pheonyx: ABLE!
  42. [10:00:31 PM] Rabla: thanks kan
  43. [10:00:32 PM] Kluck: OBJETION
  44. [10:00:38 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: *throws coffee at Pheo*
  45. [10:00:49 PM] Rabla: Nothing says you have to be bound by real world rules
  46. [10:00:53 PM] Rabla: What if the game is..
  47. [10:01:03 PM] Rabla: Trying to think of a real franchise
  48. [10:01:05 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I'm not talking physics or fantasy here
  49. [10:01:10 PM | Edited 10:01:32 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I'm talking morally
  50. [10:01:18 PM] Pheonyx: I think I missed an important piece of the conversation here I'm not following anything
  51. [10:01:31 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I just woke up
  52. [10:01:32 PM] Rabla: Go back and read from "Fuck NervGear"
  53. [10:01:56 PM] Rabla: I think the morality would be another great part of it
  54. [10:01:57 PM] Pheonyx: eeeeeeeehhhhh reading
  55. [10:02:07 PM] Rabla: Geez
  56. [10:02:19 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: How
  57. [10:02:26 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: how would that be a remotely good thing
  58. [10:02:31 PM] Pheonyx: you don't ever say fuck nervgear rabla
  59. [10:02:43 PM] Rabla: TL;DR: Game engine where all the NPCs are super advanced AI that are personality and thoughts, not scripting and pre-programmed actions
  60. [10:02:55 PM] Pheonyx: might keep the trolls down?
  61. [10:03:05 PM] Rabla: I say Fuck NervGear because this is the fictional machine that one-up's NervGear in its own universe
  62. [10:03:06 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Yeah those?
  63. [10:03:08 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: They're all dead
  64. [10:03:33 PM] Pheonyx: Not "because" you literally never said it
  65. [10:03:57 PM] Rabla: oh
  66. [10:04:00 PM] Pheonyx: did you mean "who gives a shit about nervgear?"
  67. [10:04:00 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I say that whole idea is terrible. Scientifically fascinating, but shit for a game
  68. [10:04:23 PM] Rabla: "who gives a shit about the nervgear” was the message
  69. [10:05:06 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Paralized people do /D
  70. [10:05:11 PM] Rabla: An open-world game would THRIVE in this, which is why I keep using Skyrim
  71. [10:06:00 PM] Rabla: Even if not for the world building, think of the individual uses
  72. [10:06:05 PM] Rabla: Like just a person
  73. [10:06:18 PM] Rabla: Imagine... a TWEWY, where every partner and player and Reaper
  74. [10:06:24 PM] Rabla: were almost real
  75. [10:06:35 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: what do you mean almost
  76. [10:06:53 PM] Pheonyx: sounds like a reasonable setting for a game. Though I think I understand the issue Capa's coming from.
  77. [10:07:10 PM] Rabla: I say almost because, they’re not real. I wouldn’t call them real people because physically they’re not.
  78. [10:07:19 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: >almost
  79.  
  80. Wow Rabla you fucking racist
  81. [10:07:28 PM] Pheonyx: If they look like a person and think like a person how can you say they're not a person?
  82. [10:07:33 PM] Rabla: True
  83. [10:07:45 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Hey everyone, Rabla is racist to AI
  84. [10:07:55 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: He doesn't think they're people
  85. [10:07:58 PM] Rabla: If you... actually have a problem with me calling a fictional concept not real, I can not do that
  86. [10:08:09 PM] Pheonyx: This is like textbook scifi philosophy we're dealing with here
  87. [10:09:17 PM] Pheonyx: well it's not like anyone can really take offense I mean this technology doesn't exist yet
  88. [10:09:33 PM] Rabla: Thats why I wasn’t expecting to be called out on it...
  89. [10:10:19 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I wasn't calling you out, more pointing out the fallacy
  90. [10:10:33 PM] Rabla: fair enoughhhhh
  91. [10:10:56 PM] Rabla: I’m just saying it has amazing potential
  92. [10:11:13 PM] Rabla: Now that I’ve thought of the TWEWY example thats all I’m thinking about
  93. [10:11:16 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I dunno, these are real minds you're messing with here
  94. [10:11:32 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Amazing potential for you to treat the same as always
  95. [10:11:35 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: You damn racist
  96. [10:11:55 PM] Rabla: Do you EVER consider actually joining a conversation
  97. [10:12:13 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: what you're basically doing is setting up a completely stand alone universe for yourself to come in and imperialise
  98. [10:12:33 PM] Rabla: Not if you have no power over it
  99. [10:12:40 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Then what's the point?
  100. [10:12:41 PM] Pheonyx: Somebody has power over it
  101. [10:12:51 PM] Rabla: Somebody IN THE GAME has power
  102. [10:13:02 PM] Pheonyx: I mean someone needs admin powers to debug
  103. [10:13:07 PM] Rabla: TWEWY example again, there is a literal composer
  104. [10:13:23 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: If you are not a prominent force in the game then it won't be entertaining to play
  105. [10:14:07 PM | Edited 10:14:17 PM] Kluck: Wouldn't there already be a protagonist too?
  106. [10:14:15 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: and if you ARE a prominent force, then chances are you are acting as an imperialist
  107. [10:14:36 PM] Kluck: So you would be watching from the sidelines
  108. [10:14:56 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: coming in and wrecking havoc in a world that you are an outsider to
  109. [10:15:09 PM] Rabla: You’re assuming everyone who plays will immediately decide “I want this to run EXACTLY how I want” from the very start
  110. [10:15:23 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Explain
  111. [10:15:40 PM] Rabla: Did you ever play Bioshock Infinite
  112. [10:15:47 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: No
  113. [10:15:55 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I have played very few games
  114. [10:15:55 PM] Rabla: Damn, that would of been a good example..
  115. [10:16:10 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: because I in general don't have a whole lot of money for games
  116. [10:16:32 PM] Rabla: Okay, well just in general
  117. [10:16:41 PM] Rabla: What was the last story-heavy game you played
  118. [10:16:58 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: What are those?
  119. [10:17:04 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Depends on what you mean by story heavy. Off maybe?
  120. [10:17:18 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Awakening I guess
  121. [10:17:37 PM] Rabla: Oh, Awakening is a great example
  122. [10:17:41 PM] Rabla: Thats the literal outsider
  123. [10:17:48 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: (psst what's awakening)
  124. [10:17:53 PM] Rabla: dammitcapa
  125. [10:17:58 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Hey don't do that
  126. [10:18:05 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: remember the part where I'm poor
  127. [10:18:15 PM] Rabla: What was the last RPG you played /D
  128. [10:18:18 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Off
  129. [10:18:36 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: or possibly that one Fire Emblem on my phone
  130. [10:18:46 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I hope this Off is the sequel to a game called Fuck
  131. [10:18:52 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Nup
  132. [10:18:55 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: French Indie game
  133. [10:18:57 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Damn it Pheo
  134. [10:19:07 PM] Rabla: Well, Fire Emblem works
  135. [10:19:13 PM] Pheonyx: huh why me?
  136. [10:19:23 PM] Rabla: (Awakening is a Fire Emblem game)
  137. [10:19:36 PM] Rabla: So lets say
  138. [10:19:43 PM] Rabla: What was it
  139. [10:19:50 PM] Rabla: You arrive in this world
  140. [10:19:57 PM] Rabla: first time, you know nothing
  141. [10:20:03 PM] Pheonyx: Can I marry the prince?
  142. [10:20:12 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: But the game was already out in Japan for a year
  143. [10:20:22 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I already knew the plot twist about Marth
  144. [10:20:28 PM] Rabla: People come up to you and say “Hey, we’re going to this town to do x objective, do you want to come along since you look pretty lost”
  145. [10:20:34 PM] Pheonyx: Really because I recall you being surprised about it.
  146. [10:20:39 PM] Rabla: Is your first reaction
  147. [10:20:46 PM] Rabla: Yes I will follow the story thread
  148. [10:20:48 PM] Rabla: or
  149. [10:21:03 PM] Rabla: No I want to do whatever I want this does not interest me at all
  150. [10:21:10 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: How is a story thread programmed into a game that simulates life?
  151. [10:21:10 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: "Sure, not like I can die, hey do you mind if I repeatedly loop time whenever one of you gets a shit level up?"
  152. [10:21:35 PM] Rabla: I’m not using the world example right now
  153. [10:21:47 PM] Rabla: If you can take an individual personality
  154. [10:21:57 PM] Rabla: and put them into this world where the story is happening
  155. [10:21:58 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: so they're groomed to grow in a certain way then?
  156. [10:22:31 PM] Rabla: Lets say for story-heavy characters, yes, they were developed with certain traits and thought patterns
  157. [10:22:40 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Fair enough.
  158. [10:22:56 PM] Rabla: This guy is a royal prince, he firmly believes its his duty to go defeat the Big Bad
  159. [10:23:01 PM] Rabla: Thats still his personality
  160. [10:23:06 PM] Rabla: But its pre-written as the story
  161. [10:23:12 PM] Pheonyx: No wait I want to marry his daughter instead
  162. [10:23:24 PM] Rabla: My questions stands
  163. [10:23:29 PM] Rabla: Do you go with these people
  164. [10:23:44 PM] Rabla: What would your first response be
  165. [10:23:49 PM] Rabla: I’M ASKING CAPA
  166. [10:23:50 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Well no shit, that's where the game is
  167. [10:23:51 PM] Kluck: I'd his daughter too
  168. [10:24:02 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I'd both him and his daughter really.
  169. [10:24:14 PM] Pheonyx: Oh well if we can have both \D
  170. [10:24:40 PM] Kluck: (Ps. Marth is some fiiiiiiiiine 2D)
  171. [10:24:52 PM] Rabla: This went off the deep end fast
  172. [10:25:04 PM] Kluck: Oh
  173. [10:25:09 PM] Kluck: Sorry right, deep end
  174. [10:25:12 PM] Kluck: In this case
  175. [10:25:20 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I'd go deep in her end
  176. [10:25:22 PM] Kluck: (Ps. Marth is some fiiiiiiiiiine 3D)
  177. [10:25:24 PM | Edited 10:25:29 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: If you know what I mean
  178. [10:25:39 PM] Kluck: I'd stick the falchion in
  179. [10:25:54 PM] Rabla: You guys are legitimately killing my dreams right now
  180. [10:26:06 PM] Kluck: Congrats Rabla
  181. [10:26:18 PM] Kluck: You drempt the worlds first sex simulator
  182. [10:26:23 PM] Kluck: You'll be rich
  183. [10:26:26 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I'd go with the story, but... Hmm. I think there's a distinct difference between if you use this to create an immensly immersive story and creating an open world
  184. [10:26:35 PM] Rabla: Oh please, you can already do that on the Rift
  185. [10:26:42 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Can we have some of your money Rabla?
  186. [10:26:58 PM] Kluck: Your dirty, dirty money
  187. [10:27:15 PM] Rabla: Yeah I get what you mean. I’m just trying to present a different example to the immersive open world
  188. [10:27:21 PM] Rabla: I could see like
  189. [10:27:22 PM] Rabla: GTA
  190. [10:27:28 PM] Rabla: being absolute chaos
  191. [10:27:38 PM] Pheonyx: Well GTA
  192. [10:28:04 PM | Edited 10:28:19 PM] Kluck: So you have complete control over how the story would progress right?
  193. [10:28:21 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I guess the real issue is if your actions leave permanent effects
  194. [10:28:55 PM] Rabla: Well, sure, let’s assume you can
  195. [10:29:00 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Not unless you reload saves
  196. [10:29:03 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: lolololololololool
  197. [10:29:27 PM] Pheonyx: This world probably comes with autosave
  198. [10:29:34 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: But I'm pretty sure there could be moral issues with resetting an entire world of fully functioning individuals as well
  199. [10:30:06 PM] Pheonyx: But they'd be completely unaware of such resetting
  200. [10:30:21 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: True.
  201. [10:30:40 PM] Pheonyx: Perhaps we're just another possibility of the Continuum Shift
  202. [10:31:03 PM] Pheonyx: (continues to use examples everyone but capa will understand)
  203. [10:31:36 PM] Rabla: hehe
  204. [10:31:37 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Rabla won't understand either because he doesn't give a shit
  205. [10:31:44 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And I don't think Kluck even played the story
  206. [10:31:49 PM] Rabla: I know what the Continuum Shift is you idiot
  207. [10:32:03 PM] Rabla: How many times do I have to say i DID like the story in that
  208. [10:32:15 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: 634
  209. [10:33:23 PM] Kluck: BB doesn't have a story
  210. [10:33:25 PM] Rabla: It would be interesting
  211. [10:33:27 PM] Rabla: to reload
  212. [10:33:36 PM] Rabla: and have people act differently every time
  213. [10:33:45 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And then to kill everyone when you get bored of the game
  214. [10:33:49 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Wow, you bastard
  215. [10:34:02 PM] Rabla: Way to be the first one to go there, Kanon
  216. [10:34:16 PM] Pheonyx: Kanon would be the devil of our new world
  217. [10:34:17 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: then again, that's basically erasing the experience of an entire civilizations worth of people
  218. [10:34:44 PM] Rabla: I think it would just have to be
  219. [10:34:55 PM] Rabla: accepting that its not real
  220. [10:35:15 PM] Rabla: which could be hard to do in practice, I obviously can’t say since this doesnt exist
  221. [10:35:25 PM] Rabla: You’d have to make a concious effort
  222. [10:36:02 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I think if you've seeded a world that is as complex as you say it is, it's hard to be sure that it *isn't* real
  223. [10:36:10 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: it's not the world you were born in for sure
  224. [10:36:16 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: does that make it not real?
  225. [10:36:17 PM] Pheonyx: Are we not real to our divine creators?
  226. [10:36:58 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: No, those are the ones that are not real /D
  227. [10:37:01 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: lololololololoolololololol
  228. [10:37:50 PM] Pheonyx: How would you know? Perhaps the Capa of creation won the battle against the Kanon of Creation and decided to let the world run itself free from divine interference
  229. [10:38:15 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: What kind of deity am I in this scenario
  230. [10:38:32 PM] Rabla: Whatever you want
  231. [10:38:33 PM] Pheonyx: The one who kept Kanon from killing everyone
  232. [10:38:34 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: So what you're basically saying is
  233. [10:38:36 PM] Rabla: Thats the point
  234. [10:38:37 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: X-bros are gods
  235. [10:38:42 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Awesome
  236. [10:38:48 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: *x-brofist*
  237. [10:38:53 PM] Pheonyx: no you have one good one and one evil one
  238. [10:38:57 PM] Kluck: *X-fist*
  239. [10:39:09 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: SLIENCE Y-MORTALS
  240. [10:39:13 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: YOUR X-GODS DEMAND IT
  241. [10:39:22 PM] Rabla: Can I just kick him and add him back later
  242. [10:39:24 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: So it's a simulator for playing god then.
  243. [10:39:30 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Now then
  244. [10:39:31 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Rabla
  245. [10:39:34 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: You tit
  246. [10:39:34 PM] Pheonyx: That's what I thought since the start of this conversation
  247. [10:39:48 PM] Rabla: Is it a god sim if you’re just a human within the world
  248. [10:39:54 PM] Rabla: You can’t make massive changes
  249. [10:40:07 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: What if we, our world, is a product of this technology? Would you consider yourself not real?
  250. [10:40:22 PM] Rabla: If you can prove it
  251. [10:40:29 PM] Rabla: Sure
  252. [10:40:38 PM] Pheonyx: Some professors somewhere attempted to prove it
  253. [10:40:42 PM] Rabla: I am apparently born with a fascination of this technology
  254. [10:40:42 PM] Pheonyx: I forgot how that went
  255. [10:40:57 PM] Rabla: If you told me I was a part of this and could prove it, that would be amazing
  256. [10:41:20 PM] Rabla: Because then I’d know it was possible
  257. [10:41:30 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Choochoo, the Kanon train and Rabla train have taken completely and utterly different tracks, the Kanon train will no longer try and question the Rabla trains logic on the subject of this being 'real'.
  258. [10:41:39 PM] Rabla: thanks
  259. [10:41:54 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: The Kanon train will continue to hurl insults at the Rabla train though.
  260. [10:41:55 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Faggot
  261. [10:42:00 PM] Rabla: rude
  262. [10:42:05 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: You're not a regular human though, you're an anomaly.
  263. [10:42:11 PM] Pheonyx: simulationception
  264. [10:42:22 PM] Pheonyx: A simulation within a simulation
  265. [10:42:25 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Come on Pheo, you can do better than that
  266. [10:42:28 PM] Rabla: If you’re limited to what a human can do
  267. [10:42:34 PM] Rabla: Are you not human
  268. [10:42:38 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Not if you can reset the entire timeline
  269. [10:42:39 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Simulception
  270. [10:42:56 PM] Pheonyx: pff whatever
  271. [10:43:37 PM] Pheonyx: Ah here we go, "If our world is a computer simulation, "the highest-energy cosmic rays would not travel along the edges of the lattice in the model but would travel diagonally, and they would not interact equally in all directions as they otherwise would be expected to do."
  272.  
  273. See simple enough
  274. [10:44:02 PM] Rabla: How do they know it would travel diagonally
  275. [10:44:36 PM] Rabla: where did the base for this advanced simulation come from
  276. [10:44:42 PM] Pheonyx: hell if I know
  277. [10:44:47 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And what the fuck is a Lattice?
  278. [10:44:50 PM] Rabla: fucking scientists
  279. [10:45:01 PM] Rabla: All this stupid shit, still no Portal Gun
  280. [10:45:34 PM | Edited 10:45:39 PM] Pheonyx: a grid that makes up a 3D space
  281. [10:45:39 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: See if you can reset the entire timeline, you are for all intents and purposes a god. If you can't, then your actions have permanence and you're morally at fault for everything you do.
  282. [10:46:00 PM] Rabla: I guess
  283. [10:46:05 PM] Pheonyx: Not to mention I'm sure Rabla's world will let me try again if I die
  284. [10:46:10 PM] Pheonyx: Otherwise this really is a shit game
  285. [10:46:15 PM] Rabla: Sure, thats a Game Over
  286. [10:46:21 PM] Rabla: Reload last save
  287. [10:46:25 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And a Game Over for everyone
  288. [10:46:25 PM] Rabla: Its still a game
  289. [10:46:27 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: They all died
  290. [10:46:28 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: i think that was my original point
  291. [10:46:36 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: It would make for a really bad game.
  292. [10:46:39 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Way to erase everything asshole
  293. [10:46:39 PM] Rabla: I can’t argue against that, sure
  294. [10:47:24 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: But you don't care about them, because as established, dispite them being, for all intents and purpose, human, you don't think they are.
  295. [10:47:31 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: IN SHORT: ur a butt
  296. [10:47:52 PM] Rabla: You should try following the conversation sometime
  297. [10:48:11 PM] Rabla: We already covered that
  298. [10:48:28 PM] Pheonyx: I so hope this technology comes out within our lifetimes so we can literally have an epic battle for the fate of the world
  299. [10:48:31 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Cappapheo, am I not correct in that sentance as to the views Rabla has shown he has?
  300. [10:49:04 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Pheo your sense of morality scares me
  301. [10:49:30 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Put Pheo down for another one who doesn't think they're real
  302. [10:49:50 PM] Pheonyx: hey man I wouldn't kill this world like Kanon but I would give my soul to digital satan for this technology to be created
  303. [10:49:51 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Typical Y-fags, all they care about is destruction.
  304. [10:49:57 PM] Rabla: Its not “Thinking they’re not real”
  305. [10:50:13 PM] Rabla: Its accepting they are bound to the universe they’re given
  306. [10:50:14 PM] Pheonyx: You're the one who wants to kill them all!
  307. [10:50:27 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: WHERE DID I SAY THAT?
  308. [10:50:46 PM] Rabla: You were the first person to go for killing everyone when you get bored with the game /D
  309. [10:50:57 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: No idiot
  310. [10:51:06 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Turning the game off to never play it again
  311. [10:51:10 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Is killing them all
  312. [10:51:17 PM] Rabla: No its not
  313. [10:51:20 PM] Rabla: They’re still there
  314. [10:51:27 PM] Pheonyx: WAIT
  315. [10:51:29 PM] Pheonyx: Is this an MMO?
  316. [10:51:32 PM] Rabla: No
  317. [10:51:41 PM] Pheonyx: psh
  318. [10:51:52 PM] Rabla: New example
  319. [10:52:04 PM] Rabla: Capa, please tell me you’ve at least played Animal Crossing
  320. [10:52:07 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Nup
  321. [10:52:14 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I'M POOR OKAY
  322. [10:52:26 PM] Rabla: You need to stop being poor
  323. [10:52:27 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: IT TOOK LITERALLY ALMOST ALL MY MONEY TO BUY THE LATEST POKÉMON GAME
  324. [10:52:34 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: SURE GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, ASSHOLE
  325. [10:52:47 PM] Rabla: Hey, I didn’t say *I* wasn’t poor
  326. [10:53:05 PM] Rabla: I just got poor later than you did /D
  327. [10:53:09 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: bullshit, your scraped together like 60+ dollars in change
  328. [10:53:17 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Multiple times
  329. [10:53:20 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Might I add
  330. [10:53:20 PM] Rabla: Twice
  331. [10:53:27 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: STILL MULTIPLE
  332. [10:53:51 PM] Kluck: I'm not poor
  333. [10:53:56 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Anyway, my point is you've created life
  334. [10:54:06 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: HOW are you not poor Kluck
  335. [10:54:06 PM] Rabla: I’ve agreed with that, yes
  336. [10:54:08 PM] Kluck: JUST SAYIN'
  337. [10:54:09 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Do you shit figs?
  338. [10:54:29 PM] Pheonyx: figs don't sell for much in market
  339. [10:54:44 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: and if you've created life, then you need to treat it with the same moral code that you treat regular humans
  340. [10:54:49 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Oh hey Kluck did I show you my Big O?
  341. [10:54:53 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: and that makes for a shitty game
  342. [10:54:57 PM] Kluck: No
  343. [10:55:01 PM] Kluck: Do I want to see it?
  344. [10:55:18 PM] Pheonyx: He posted it to twitter
  345. [10:55:34 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: https://twitter.com/KeyKanon_/status/410563328964968449
  346. https://twitter.com/KeyKanon_/status/410563814178828291/photo/1
  347.  
  348. Here
  349. [10:56:06 PM] Kluck: How much?
  350. [10:56:09 PM] Rabla: If you never have to step outside the moral ground, and the game can progress without anything like that, is it still a shitty game
  351. [10:56:13 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: 2000 yen
  352. [10:56:20 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: He was a buildable
  353. [10:56:20 PM] Kluck: What model?
  354. [10:56:24 PM] Kluck: Pffffft
  355. [10:56:26 PM] Kluck: K
  356. [10:56:35 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: The one that doesn't cost over 10k /D
  357. [10:57:26 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: [10:56 PM] Rabla:
  358.  
  359. <<< If you never have to step outside the moral ground, and the game can progress without anything like that, is it still a shitty gameWhat kind of game would that be?
  360. [10:57:46 PM] Rabla: Simulation game?
  361. [10:57:47 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Animal Crossing /D
  362. [10:57:54 PM] Kluck: Shitty
  363. [10:58:24 PM] Pheonyx: speaking of morals I really aught to finish SMT
  364. [10:58:30 PM] Rabla: RPG, all bad guys are monsters. You never kill a human. Is this breaking morals?
  365. [10:58:54 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Depends on what defines a monster I suppose
  366. [10:58:54 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Do these monsters have the AI? /D
  367. [10:59:06 PM] Kluck: I wanna play an RPG from a baddie's perspective
  368. [10:59:18 PM] Rabla: Kluck confirmed for wanting to kill everyone...
  369. [10:59:26 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Answer me Rablaaaaaaa~
  370. [10:59:37 PM] Rabla: No, they’re just monsters.
  371. [10:59:39 PM] Kluck: Why?
  372. [10:59:50 PM] Rabla: They have a single purpose, to KO you.
  373. [10:59:52 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: So are they like animals?
  374. [10:59:56 PM] Rabla: The big bosses are smarter.
  375. [11:00:07 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: So the bosses are people
  376. [11:00:10 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Way to kill them
  377. [11:00:19 PM] Rabla: They’re animals in the sense of “This thing exists to murder you and that’s it”
  378. [11:00:47 PM] Rabla: Would it be morally right to NOT kill it? If you let one get into a town, and that was due to YOUR action, what is that.
  379. [11:02:10 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: That is also morally wrong, but I don't see how that strengthens your point.
  380. [11:02:10 PM] Rabla: Just throwing ideas out there.
  381. [11:02:18 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: hm.
  382. [11:02:19 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And when you stop playing the game, there is nothing to stop the monsters
  383. [11:02:21 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Everyone dies!
  384. [11:02:41 PM] Rabla: Sorry, did all the Pokemon die after you saved and left it for a few hours
  385. [11:02:57 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Not a valid counter.
  386. [11:02:59 PM] Rabla: Did Team Flare win while you weren’t looking?
  387. [11:03:27 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: so you're putting Life on hold while you go do something else
  388. [11:03:27 PM] Rabla: If you ‘Save’ and stop playing the game
  389. [11:03:34 PM] Rabla: thats not killing everyone
  390. [11:03:55 PM] Pheonyx: you'd just be freezing time. To the npc's perspective, you would have never left at all
  391. [11:04:42 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: And yet, when I said 'when you stop playing the game for good, you kill everyone' but Rabla was like 'N-NO IT NEVER STOPS EVEN WHEN YOU'RE NOT THERE'
  392. [11:04:53 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: You can't just change how it works to suit the current argument
  393. [11:05:06 PM] Pheonyx: Why is the game being run on a server if it's not an mmo?
  394. [11:05:43 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Either everyone dies when you quit, or everyone dies while you're not there to defend them
  395. [11:05:54 PM] Pheonyx: They dont' die, they just freeze
  396. [11:06:12 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Effective death if you're never playing it again
  397. [11:06:23 PM] Pheonyx: Also if this simulation was run for 500 years before you got there I'd assume the population could defend itself.
  398. [11:07:22 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: You're the hero there to save the world, if you're not there, the bosses, which have been established as having intelligent AI, would eventually get shit done with no hero /D
  399. [11:07:36 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: IIt's some Adult Timeline shit before Wind Waker.
  400. [11:07:38 PM] Pheonyx: Since when do bosses leave the dungeon?
  401. [11:07:51 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Now you're imprisoning them?
  402. [11:07:56 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: These thinking feeling beings
  403. [11:08:03 PM] Rabla: You’re missing the part where its still a game
  404. [11:08:07 PM] Pheonyx: We've already established that monsters do not possess the same intelligence.
  405. [11:08:37 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: "The part where these basically human AI are NOT HUMAN AND SHOULDN'T BE TREATED AS SUCH'
  406. [11:08:43 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I find it difficult to link the game and the high level simulation
  407. [11:08:44 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Fucking Racist.
  408. [11:09:07 PM] Rabla: Not what I was getting at
  409. [11:09:12 PM] Pheonyx: I'm not talking about human AI I'm talking about monsters
  410. [11:09:17 PM] Rabla: The game follows the rules of the game
  411. [11:09:26 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Rabla said the bosses had the AI
  412. [11:09:35 PM] Rabla: No I didn’t, I said they were smarter
  413. [11:10:16 PM] Rabla: Being smarter than standard enemies would be beneficial to the idea of a Boss Fight if they can strategize and learn your attacks the same way you learn theirs.
  414. [11:10:47 PM] Pheonyx: My theory is that in order to ensure that the simulation would survive for the 500 year incubation period, the ecosystem of monsters and humans would be properly balanced that neither would go extinct from the other while the player character was not involved.
  415. [11:11:03 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: hmm.
  416. [11:11:06 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Interesting.
  417. [11:11:07 PM] Pheonyx: Or at least that's how I'd program it
  418. [11:11:56 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: See when you impose all these rules like this, it's not the "leaving it alone for 500 years to let it do its own thing" that was originally proposed
  419. [11:12:00 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: So you're going to create a 500 year old world, intrude, 'save' it, then put it in eternal stasis
  420. [11:12:27 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I think you're the villian
  421. [11:12:29 PM] Rabla: The 500 year old world thing was something I was using to introduce the idea, and part of the conversation on an Open World game
  422. [11:12:40 PM] Pheonyx: Stasis only if it wouldn't be running while you're not there. In which case you wouldn't need to care about the ecosystem while the player isn't involved.
  423. [11:12:54 PM | Edited 11:13:07 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: alright. Can you redefine the world this is taking place in for me?
  424. [11:13:23 PM] Rabla: Hmm
  425. [11:13:39 PM] Rabla: We’re talking a standard RPG, so
  426. [11:13:55 PM] Rabla: Long enough for a world to ‘settle’
  427. [11:14:09 PM | Edited 11:14:17 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: A few ten's of thousands of years? /D
  428. [11:14:19 PM] Rabla: I mean, Final Fantasy 1 had an entire hundred or so NPCs
  429. [11:14:25 PM] Rabla: maybe less
  430. [11:14:44 PM] Rabla: Its complicated because
  431. [11:15:00 PM] Rabla: how old is the world in the STORY, compared to the actual game you’ve built.
  432. [11:15:30 PM] Rabla: If you want a story of a world that’s existed for ten thousand years, do you simulate ten thousand years before you start altering and adding a story
  433. [11:16:05 PM] Rabla: The limitations of how the ‘engine’ would work are kind of non-existant
  434. [11:16:33 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Doesn't change the fact you're killing them all in the end
  435. [11:17:18 PM] Rabla: When was the last time you played a GBA Pokemon game
  436. [11:17:36 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Couple of beers
  437. [11:17:57 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I want a beer now
  438. [11:18:13 PM] Rabla: The world hadn’t changed while you were gone, because it was frozen at a savepoint. It’d be exactly like that.
  439. [11:18:18 PM] Pheonyx: I think we could all use a beer at this point
  440. [11:18:35 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: BUT EVENTUALLY, YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GO BACK
  441. [11:18:41 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: THIS KILLS THE WORLD
  442. [11:18:47 PM] Rabla: No, it keeps it frozen
  443. [11:19:26 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Everything falls apart eventually
  444. [11:19:41 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: IT ALL COMES TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN
  445. [11:19:52 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: whatever storage it was on would eventually become corrupt, or whatever
  446. [11:20:01 PM] Rabla: That would be death, sure
  447. [11:20:38 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: This is starting to get a little bit too distant for me to wrap my head around it
  448. [11:21:00 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Death is when the game will never be played again numbnuts.
  449. [11:21:08 PM] Rabla: Guess we’ll have to wait for Kluck’s scientists to invent it and test it out
  450. [11:21:15 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: It doesn't have to be a fantastical slaughter
  451. [11:21:28 PM] Pheonyx: all things die eventually
  452. [11:21:30 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Being turned off is death.
  453. [11:21:39 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I feel the world in question has become radically different from what we started with. More rules and limitations have been introduced so it's more like a game than an actual life
  454. [11:21:59 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Yeah well all things don't come into existance for some numbnuts to play with them for a few hours and then be done with it.
  455. [11:22:46 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: Imma brb for food, cuppa, keep count of every time these Y-fag treat this AI as something less deserving of rights than humans.
  456. [11:23:17 PM] Rabla: Everyone has their own sense of morals
  457. [11:23:17 PM] Pheonyx: Even humans will eventually die. Should we not birth new people?
  458. [11:23:55 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Kanon has a good point though.
  459. [11:24:11 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Who are we to decide what Life gets to run its course and what doesn't?
  460. [11:24:35 PM] Pheonyx: If no one decides then who starts life?
  461. [11:25:11 PM] Rabla: Kanon is referring to real life in reality. Despite morals and questions and all that, if this concept ever becomes real, they will be treated differently in the end.
  462. [11:25:27 PM] Rabla: All five of us can agree we shouldn’t touch it
  463. [11:25:36 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: That's not the question Pheo, the question is who decides to end it.
  464. [11:25:37 PM] Rabla: That doesnt change what other people will do
  465. [11:26:03 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: What people will do isn't really a concern, if it is morally right is.
  466. [11:26:41 PM] Rabla: If its a world that can be reset, and a medium that will one day cease to function
  467. [11:26:57 PM] Rabla: Is killing an AI human, for a cause or for random fun
  468. [11:27:07 PM] Rabla: A MAJOR thing to the world
  469. [11:27:48 PM] Rabla: Is the first person to ever kill one of these people going to be shunned for the rest of his life?
  470. [11:27:55 PM] Rabla: Is he going to be trialed?
  471. [11:28:10 PM] Rabla: It can be morally wrong, sure
  472. [11:28:19 PM] Rabla: But what effect does it have
  473. [11:28:29 PM] Rabla: It only effects you, and your copy of the world
  474. [11:28:34 PM] Rabla: And it can be undone
  475. [11:30:26 PM] Rabla: ...that was the end of my point, if you want to comment on that or something
  476. [11:30:39 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I'm thinking.
  477. [11:30:45 PM] Pheonyx: nah you just kind of left us speechless
  478. [11:30:53 PM] Rabla: Am I wrong?
  479. [11:31:34 PM] Pheonyx: no, though you mostly asked questions rather than bringing up answers
  480. [11:31:54 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: But if these people have real personalities, then everytime you reset you are erasing their experiences. Is this within our right?
  481. [11:31:55 PM] Rabla: It was just my thoughts
  482. [11:32:00 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: [11:25 PM] Rabla:
  483.  
  484. <<< All five of us can agree we shouldn’t touch itAbsolutely not, just not in the stupid way you want to touch it.
  485. [11:32:16 PM] Rabla: I said CAN, not that we DID.
  486. [11:32:28 PM] Rabla: Stop picking apart single examples
  487. [11:32:33 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: I feel more and more I'm arguing against the creation of this technology at all
  488. [11:33:01 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: I am incrediably up for true AI.
  489. [11:33:20 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: What I am not up for is not giving them the respect they deserve, which Rabla has
  490. [11:33:35 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Redefinition; I am not up for true AI in games
  491. [11:33:45 PM] Donkvee Kanonguillotine: That's better
  492. [11:34:17 PM] Rabla: I am FOR True AI, obviously.
  493. [11:34:43 PM] Rabla: Though the general view seems to greatly differ
  494. [11:35:37 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: Incredibly complex AI, sure. But there needs to be a line drawn for AI that is effectively Sentient. Of course, what is sentient can be argued as well.
  495. [11:36:05 PM] Rabla: Where does AI go from ‘incredibly complex’ to ‘sentient’, I guess.
  496. [11:36:21 PM] Rabla: If they’re complex enough, they might as well be sentient
  497. [11:36:46 PM] Didrik McCay Wickman: That's the question yes
  498. [11:38:21 PM] Rabla: Pheooooooooooo
  499. [11:38:50 PM] Rabla: Not to spring a huge question on you, but are you at a point where you could say you’re For or Against True AI
  500. [11:39:01 PM] Rabla: or are you still in the middle
  501. [11:39:51 PM] Pheonyx: In game or just general?
  502. [11:40:18 PM] Rabla: Er, when I answered I guess I was leaning towards game use
  503. [11:40:38 PM] Pheonyx: mm. Well not like it matters. I've been for this whole time.
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