Sibel Edmonds on The Lone Gladio: Raw DRAFT TXT Dump

Welcome. It's ClandesTime.

[MUSIC -- James Bond Theme]

(Tom Secker): Hi, everyone, and
welcome back to ClandesTime.

I am your host, Tom Secker, coming from
the grassy gnolls of North Yorkshire,

and this is Episode 40: Sibel Edmonds
on The Lone Gladio

Throughout the Cold War and up to the
present day,

Western intelligence services have
used fiction

as a weapon of psychological warfare.

From James Bond to 24,
from Animal Farm to Argo,

they have deceived the public,
and covered up their secrets.

The latest book by former FBI
translator Sibel Edmonds

turns all of this on its head,

and in the process has re-invented
the spy thriller.

The Lone Gladio, partly based
on Sibel's own experiences,

tells the story of two FBI agents
who are forced out of the Bureau

when their investigation stumbles

onto a shadowy criminal network
within the Deep State.

An intricate, globe-trotting
narrative unfolds.

The cast of characters includes spies,
radical imams,

high-level politicians, investigative
journalists, terrorists,

and a billionaire haunted by the
murder of his son.

From the Washington Field Office of
the FBI to the cliffs of Cyprus

to the city of Baku, to the jungles
of Vietnam,

The Lone Gladio takes us where
no spy story has gone before,

a page-turning tale of crime
and discovery,

of love and retribution.

Edmonds has been ignored by the
mainstream media

and gagged by the federal government

but has still managed to shed light on
some of NATO's very worst crimes,

including the attacks of 9/11.

As her new book explains,

the Gladio network that was responsible

for so much violence during
the Cold War

was not shut down when the
Soviet Union collapsed.

Instead, it simply changed its personnel
and modified its strategy.

Drug smuggling, child prostitution, and
false-flag terror

are the stock in trade of the
Gladio B network.

Radical Islamists are its new
shock troops.

Turkey, the Caucasus, and Central Asia
its new center of operations.

The entire Middle East -- indeed,
the entire world --

its new battleground.

9/11 was just the beginning.

The Lone Gladio is the most
important book by a former insider

since Philip Agee's Inside the Company,

with the notable exception of
Sibel's autobiography,

Classified Woman.

It is the boldest, bravest
thriller available,

and quite possibly the best spy story
I have ever read.

Today I welcome to the show

FBI whistleblower and author
Sibel Edmonds of BoilingFrogsPost.com

And we talk about her new book,
The Lone Gladio

We discussed how the novel subverts
the usual spy genre,

not just through its uncompromising
look at the Deep State,

but also in its treatment of women,

its portrayal of black operatives,

and how it responds to the question

of what do we do with people like those
in the Gladio network.

We also touched on the recreation of
Sibel's real-life story

in the CIA-sponsored TV show Homeland.

So, hello Sibel. Welcome to ClandesTime.

It's great to have you on the show.
And how are you doing?

(Sibel Edmonds): Thank you! And thank you for the invite.

And also your thorough analysis
and reviews on Lone Gladio

(Tom): Well, yeah: I mean, we are,
of course,

going to be talking about your new book,

-- and, of course, your debut novel --

The Lone Gladio

And you were kind enough to send me
a review copy,

which I read in only a couple of sittings.

It would have only been one,

but to be honest, my eyes got tired, and
I just had to sleep. (laughter)

(Sibel): Sorry about that.

(Tom): Well, I wanted to finish it all in one go:

I was that engaged and intrigued
by this book.

I thoroughly recommend it.
I absolutely enjoyed this book.

it's probably the best book I've
read all year.

And I've read a lot of books this year --
a lot of very good books, this year.

So I'm not saying that at all lightly.

But, I did. It's both a brilliant piece of
literature, and also just a cracking read.

I thought it was wonderful.

(Sibel): Well, thank you. It means a lot,
coming from you especially.

I was quite nervous when I sent you
the review copy,

because knowing how much you know,

you are one of the few people, experts,
on the original Operation Gladio.

I have to admit, I was quite nervous
about that, because...

again, because who you are. (laughter)

So it means a lot. Thank you.

(Tom): Oh, well, it is very nice of you
to say so.

But, yeah: you had nothing to worry
about; your book's amazing.

So, The Lone Gladio, it is, I suppose, a
mystery thriller

that's set in the early post-9/11 world,

sort of around 2003, 2004.

And it's an extended political expose,

but kind of wrapped up in the clothes of
a spy novel.

And as I've explored a lot on this show,

and on my site SpyCulture.com,

the spy novel has... for a really, really
long time, for decades,

it's been an established kind of weapon
of psychological warfare

for intelligence agencies, particularly
within NATO countries.

And what I thought was particularly
brilliant, and brave,

and original about your book, about
The Lone Gladio,

was that you've... I think you've
re-invented the spy novel

as a kind of weapon against NATO.

I mean, that's the way I... that's one of
the ways I interpreted it, anyway.

And I've listened to the other
interviews you've given about the book,

with James Corbett and Guillermo and
Pierce and other people,

and they're great interviews.

People should go and listen to them,
absolutely.

So I understand your desire to avoid

that bit legal struggle you had with
your first book,

where the FBI said that, basically,

"Everything in this book is classified,
including the title,"

"and the author's name, and everything."

I get you just wanted to avoid having
to go through all of that again,

and that's one of the reasons you
chose fiction.

But aside from that reason, I mean,

this notion of subverting or re-inventing
the spy thriller:

was that always your intention with
this book?

Or was that something that sort of came
out in the process of putting it together?

(Sibel): No, absolutely,
it was intentional.

I, as you just mentioned, whether we are
looking into all the Hollywood movies

on the spy, action-thriller films...

-- and there are dozens and dozens,

hundreds and thousands of those,
of course --

or books written, the entertainment books

written within this genre, spy-thriller,

you basically always look at and read

all these canned classical fantastical
fantasies,

and many of those, of course, written by
the Western authors.

And I want to, also, separate it as
two categories.

I mean, you have entertainment
industry authors,

that they write books -- whether it's
Ludlum or Clancy --

and they have never had, really,
any connections

or any inside knowledge of... whether it's
the CIA, or the NATO, et cetera.

But then you also have had

-- we have had --

several books written by former spies,

operatives, let's say, for the CIA.

And the amazing thing for me has been,

even those written by people who have
later been labeled as whistle-blowers,

you see basically, pretty much, the
same pattern:

the same classical 007 patterns.

And especially after my experience,

after establishing the organization

National Security Whistleblowers
Coalition,

after getting to know many...
when I say "many,"

at least a dozen of long-term veteran
operatives from the CIA,

I always felt, in a way, even offended
by many of these novels.

To give you an example

-- and this is not for the purpose

of badmouthing anything or
belittling anyone --

but this novel that the major publishers
paid several millions dollars on,

that was written, the fiction,
by Valerie Plame...

(Tom): Ah, yeah.

(Sibel): Yeah. If you look at that book,

about, I would say, easily 50, 60
percent of it

are all fillers about the
designer clothes,

the description of designer clothes;

and then the rest of it is
basically, again,

these fantastical, highly-fictional,
glamorous portrayal of the spies.

Again, it's exactly the same way
that we see

in the books written by very famous,
accomplished

-- within the mass-market -- authors,

who had no real knowledge or
connections to these agencies.

And to just say that it's disappointing,

I guess, would be a grand understatement.

(Tom): Yeah.

(Sibel): Because... it's ridiculous.

And I understand this trend,

and the notion of delivering
what the market expects,

or what people think the market expects,

and also put into this same equation

the rules and expectations of the
mainstream publishers,

because as with everything,

once people, they get set into the trend,

they never look keenly at anyone
who is outside,

or who falls outside the trend.

They want to always follow
this same recipe,

the same script.

So I'm sure...

-- I don't want to say I'm sure,
because I don't know --

but if there have been authors, or maybe
even former operatives,

who have written books that fell
outside that trend,

I'm sure that they have gotten
the big "No"

rejection from the mainstream publishers.

And you also have to realize,
the mainstream publishers,

they don't operate only based
on profit-driven motives.

They have other motives, too.

Same with the mainstream media.

It's not only about profit, and the
dollars, and the money.

They have been acting,
for almost a century,

as the tentacles of the Deep State,
the Establishment.

So they always work in harmony with
the major players within the Deep State.

So they have this unanimous trend
set forth towards authors.

And that is we...

-- especially with these
types of books --

we only go with one trend;

and if you go and read any of
these books,

thousands of them,

you almost come back with exactly
the same trend.

Recently, I went and watched this
recent movie

with The Most Dangerous Man by
John le Carre.

It deviated a little bit from
the general trend,

but again, pretty much you are looking
into the same ingredients.

And of course, sure: they would have,
and portray, a few bad apples

within, let's say, the CIA,

or people who can be considered
in some way Deep State,

but they are always the minority,

and in the end the good prevails. (laughs)

(Tom): Well, it has the resolution: there has
to be a happy resolution.

(Sibel): Exactly. And so I definitely wanted
to challenge that trend,

but also make it a challenge for myself,

as an objective:

because the question becomes,
is it really market-driven?

For example: if, for example, this book
really fails...

and most people, they say,

"No, I don't like reading a book
like this. I didn't like it,"

then it kind of raises this question of,

"OK, so therefore all these mainstream
publishers and channels and authors,"

"they are delivering based on what
the public expect."

But on the other hand, if this book
is received well,

and if it's widely-read,

it is one way to challenge that notion,

saying, "No, it's not market-driven."

It's like the question of...

the good old question of
"chicken or the egg?" thing.

Is it market's expectation driving this?

Or is it because the industry...

-- these establishments, as part of
the Deep State --

they only go wtih this trend and make
this the mainstream popular trend;

therefore that's what people are
left as choices,

and that's why they buy it.

So in a way, I consider it an experiment,
in more than one way.

One way is the approach:

the truthful approach, the sincere,
frank approach to writing a fiction.

And the second thing, of course, is
self-publishing it.

I mean, I had a very good team
of editors, designers put together.

Independent people that helped
create this book.

But I didn't want to do it through
the mainstream media

with their big mainstream
marketing channels,

when they get their authors to sit
on CBS, 60 Minutes, and NBC,

to say, with the Internet today,
and with the ability we have

in terms of independently being
able to publish this thing,

and using various independent mediums
to reach out to potential readers,

are we able to really challenge

-- big-time challenge,
not small challenge --

challenge the mainstream publishers?

So that's another set of objectives
that I had in place,

or I put in place for this book.

I did the exact same thing with
my first book,

but that was a different genre.

That was non-fiction.

I had to battle legally for
a year-and-a-half

with the FBI and the Justice Department

to go and publish it.

And the mainstream publisher didn't
want to touch it.

Not because they didn't like, maybe,
the content,

or how it was written,

but it was solely due to the fact
that they didn't want to...

-- as they put it --

take on the FBI, and then go and
invest time and publish it,

and the FBI, DOJ come back later and say,

"You can't put this book in the market."

They did that with Tony Schaffer's book:
Able Danger whistleblower?

(Tom): Yeah, of course.

(Sibel): Yeah: they printed something like...

I don't know, don't quote me on that,
but I think 30,000 copies.

(Tom): Yeah, it was certainly tens of
thousands of copies.

(Sibel): So the Department of Defense,
with their legal team:

they went there and they took every
single copy, and they burned it.

I mean, this is really Fahrenheit 451.

This is... they destroyed it.

And they compensated the publisher
for the wholesale price,

for the cost to print this book,

and they forced the author to go
and publish the redacted version.

So, not that it doesn't happen:
in this case, it did happen.

And so that was a different case.

That was a non-fiction.

But with this book, I didn't have
those obstacles,

which was really great.

It was a really hard, stressful period,

going through Classified Woman, and
not only writing it...

because no matter how many times...

-- at least in my case --

you tell the story during the interviews,
or write articles,

when you sit down and you
write about it,

even if you have been through it
100 times,

it traumatizes you all over again.

Some people, they like to dwell upon
traumatized period of their lives,

or their being victim, or victimized.

For me, I'm one of those people
who likes to move on.

I'm like, "OK, so that was horrible.
I fell, and I was on my knees."

"I'm gonna get up, and I'm
gonna keep walking."

"I'm not gonna sit there and grieve"

"over all the things I have lost
or suffered, et cetera."

So it was really traumatic to sit down
and write Classified Woman.

With this book, actually,
the process was...

one word that comes to mind
is, therapeutic.

It was a great process.

It was difficult, but it was difficult
in a positive way.

And it took about a year-and-a-half
to write it,

and another, almost a year, to publish it.

Because it takes a long time to go
through all the editing process,

and the proof-reading.

And your copy is a proof copy.

Please remind me to send you
the final copy.

i'm sure you have seen a bunch of
things there that later were corrected.

But it's a pretty tedious process.

And so I didn't have that with this book.

Instead I really had a...

I think I would consider it a great
experience writing it.

(Tom): Well, I mean, you've said in
other interviews

that you don't really like spy novels
and movies,

and you don't tend to read or watch
them very much. (laughter)

And it's kind of odd that you ended up
writing a spy novel.

But I mean, you got it right:
this is... (laughter)

when you start reading this book,

even though the content is obviously
quite radically different

to that that you'd find in
most spy novels,

you've got the style down, certainly,

(Sibel): That's very interesting!

I mean, it's really surprising,
really surprising to me.

Because I did this based on real life,

based on the non-fiction life,
based on truth.

And I guess... I don't know, when they
say truth resembles art? (laughs)

And that happened.

And I was really amazed
-- also amused -- when people...

And I'm getting it on a daily basis:

they say I have created another
Bourne character,

and this is so Bourne-esque,
or Ludlum-esque.

And I haven't read a single Ludlum
book in my life.

My husband, he's into those books.
He grabs those.

I make sure he never pays full price.

We go and get them used,
like third-hand, for $2.50

from local used-book store we have.

Where I get all my DVDs from yeah.

(Sibel): (laughs) Right! And so
I've never read it.

And I've never watched the movies.

Again, I have seen previews in,
maybe, movie theaters, coming,

this guy jumping from these
24th-floor buildings, et cetera.

But I have never watched spy thrillers
based on Ludlum's work.

And I'm not, again, putting down
Ludlum's work.

i'm sure it's entertaining.

Millions and tens of millions
of people love it.

But I've never read those.

So to me, again, that's amazing
and amusing:

that in the end, I created a book
that people grab and read,

and they find it exciting,

and yet they find it similar
in some aspects

to some of these well-known authors.

And another amazing and amusing
thing for me is,

when I go to Amazon and look at
the ranking:

we have been doing fairly well in
the mystery-thriller genre there.

(Tom): Yeah.

(Sibel): But when I go and look at those,

I'm among all these man authors.

Lee Child is there, Tom Clancy
is there, Ludlum is there.

And again: there are no women
in that particular category,

especially if it's on the terrorism
and conspiracies, et cetera.

And again: I find that all amusing

and just like something totally
brand-new for me. Anyhow...

(Tom): Well, I mean, one of the authors

that your book specifically reminded me of

was, a bit, Frederick Forsyth.

Who was one of these people who
wasn't ever an insider.

he had a certain amount of help
from people

who were obviously telling him
what they wanted him to write,

but he wasn't ever actually an
agent or anything.

Because he actually portrays the
Deep State in his stories.

Most spy stories don't ever really
get onto the topic

of what the Deep State behind
the agency is doing.

(Sibel): Well, I'm taking notes here,

because I haven't read his books,

and I've just taken my notes here,

and I'm going ot definitely look
into that: thank you.

(Tom): But he always portrays the Deep State

as some kind of benevolent force for good.

He portrays... we always get the story
of the spies are the heroes,

the security state is the hero.

But even when you do get spy authors
touching on the Deep State,

it just becomes part of the
same narrative.

And that's always what's so wafer-thin
and laughable

about these sorts of books, really.

And what you've done with The Lone Gladio

is much, much more like film noir,

or like those early-'70s
American thrillers,

where you've portrayed the
corporate elite and the Deep State

as completely corrupt and self-serving...

-- which, of course, it is.
In reality, it is --

but one of the different things that,

in those kinds of stories,

you've got a protagonist who
usually ends up dead,

or brainwashed, or in some way destroyed.

And so the message is usually that,
yeah, the Deep State is corrupt,

but it's all futile, and there's nothing
we can do about it.

And your story is so different,
because the titular character,

the Lone Gladio himself,
Greg MacPherson,

he engages in this protracted
campaign of retribution

against the Gladio network that
he previously worked for.

And so he's running around the world,

assassinating and torturing this long list

of state terrorists, pedophiles,

massively-corrupt politicians,
other black operatives:

all sorts of people.

And I admit, I did actually find all of
this very satisfying to read.

It's unpleasant in places,
but I did like it.

I'm not gonna deny that.

And in one of my reviews of your book,

I called all of this violence a
revenge fantasy.

And I hope you know I meant that
in the best, best possible way.

I didn't...

(Sibel): Oh, sure.

(Tom): Yeah. Because what you've done
is actually pose the question:

"What do we do with these people?"

"What do we do about the Gladio network?"

We know that this thing exists,

but it's a question I've never
really resolved myself.

I have pretty ambivalent feelings
about it,

because the courts are a joke.

Prosecuting these people is extremely
unlikely.

Just exposing them and trying to,
sort of, embarrass them

into stopping some of these activities:

there may be some mileage there,

but so far, it's proving pretty difficult.

So maybe... or at least, I've heard
the argument,

a bullet in the back of the head is not
only what these people deserve,

but also the most kind of practical
solution available to us.

So yeah, I have very ambivalent
feelings about it.

(Sibel): Absolutely. (laughs) Absolutely.

(Tom): So we pose... what do you think?

(Sibel): Absolutely. Because these were
all the philosophical questions.

And my own contradictory feelings
that have been portrayed in this story,

that I portrayed -- because it's
absolutely factual and true.

I find myself -- and I found myself,
through writing this book,

and especially in the past
ten, twelve years,

facing the same question.

I tried, in several articles that
I have written,

to take on the issue of how
the Deep State...

-- and let's say, in this case,
even the US Government --

they go with, "The end justifies
the means" motto,

and make a lot of things acceptable
to the people.

And people accept it.

It's an amazing... I would call it
crowd psychology.

Whether it's the millions of people dying,

over a million people dying in Vietnam
during our war in Vietnam.

Or whether it's Afghanistan,

or use of drones:

I mean, these mass-murders get
to be accepted by the people,

the majority of the people, as,

"Oh, yeah: too bad. Civilians, millions
of them died; but what do you do?"

"You have to do it and get rid of
these people..."

and they have no idea who
"these people" actually are.

(Tom): Yes.

(Sibel): And during the process,
of course,

innocent people are going to die.

Bystanders and civilians are gonna die.

Of course, we do not accept that
notion here, in our country.

As long as it happens thousands, or ten
thousand miles away,

we are fine with that.

But then, opposing that notion,

and then coming back to what you just
brought up

and the notion of, what do you do
with these people?

You just said, just with my case alone
with the FBI,

one of the things that I learned

-- first-hand experience, factually;
it's not assumption or any conspiracy:

that there are no independent channels.

There is no place to go.

And this is one of the things that one of
my characters here, Elsie Simon, faces.

You go to Congress?
Are you kidding me?

It's part of the same system.

Again, it's like... think of a hydra.

It's one of the tentacles of this octopus.

And courts? Are you kidding me?

Who appoints these federal judges?

Do we have an independent court?

Look around. I'm not talking about in
the cases of some burglaries or theft.

But let's look around into
the federal court,

when it comes to the issues
where the criminals

are within the government
or the Deep State.

We don't see any cases that have been,
really, successfully prosecuted,

or even taken on, taken up by the courts.

So there are no courts.

There are no independent law enforcement.

There is no such a thing as the Congress
with oversight.

I mean, these are all the theoretical...

fictional, [xx] the veil put on the
United States,

and accepted by people readily,
because it makes us feel good.

"We are living in this great
democratic nation right now,"

"the United States of America!"

"We have this fantastic thing called
the Constitution."

"We have the three branches,"

"so that they are looking over each
other's shoulder,"

"and there's checks and balances,
system in place: "

Doesn't that make people feel peaked?

I mean, you're so proud to be American
for these things.

But in actuality, in practice...

-- and no matter, really, what major
issue you're dealing with --

the moment you dig... not far:
you don't have to dig deep.

You just have to, let's say, scratch
the surface:

you are hit by this stench,
by this nauseating stench,

of corruption and lies and hypocrisy
and viciousness.

And it's nothing like what the theory
says about what these entities are.

Thus, how do you...

-- as you just put forth the question --

how do you deal with this?

It felt good. It did feel good,
even during writing this;

because it was taking out...
there are so many of them,

and some of them are invisible, when
we are talking about the Deep State.

And that notion is pretty clearly
indicated in this book.

Operation B, even if you end it,
before it ends, Operation C starts.

The first 20, number 1-20, people
in the ranking of the Gladio,

even operatives like Greg MacPherson,

they don't know who these people are.

They know the lower level,

but they don't know who is really
in the top.

But yet, it is saying that no, you can't
wait for the courts,

but as many as you can, you take out.

Well, here I just argued what I have
been arguing against:

that using this
-- the end justifies the means --

is not a right way to look at it.

And yet, in our case

-- from our side, when I look at it --

that's exactly how I feel.

Same thing, the same theme comes
up again with the question of torture.

And so many philosophical things
that I included in this book.

And I don't know: maybe people
who don't like to go deep into things,

they will read this book, they find
it entertaining,

and maybe it won't register.
some of those points:

but some people will read it,
and they will hopefully take away

many critical-thinking-inducing
philosophical questions

that we all struggle with. All of us do.

(Tom): Well that was the most
profound thing about the book,

and one of the reasons why I so
thoroughly enjoyed it.

But there's a couple of things about
the Greg MacPherson character

I wanted to pick up on in particular.

Because the first of these is an example

of just how well you managed
to subvert the typical spy novel.

Because Greg, OG68...

-- this Gladio operative who,
if you like, goes rogue --

he is motivated by revenge, essentially,

and retribution: because the Company,
the Gladio network,

kills his wife, the woman he loves.

And in most spy stories, women
are just disposable sexual pursuits.

They are relatively meaningless
and incidental characters .

And yet in this, Greg himself,

he's not a particularly sexual character,
aside from the odd shower scene,

but instead, it's his love for this woman

that actually starts him on this
journey of retribution.

And then he teams up with Elsie,

and he treats her with -- to be fair --
a lot of respect, and a lot of trust.

And he completely keeps his word.

He says he's going to protect her,
and he does.

And in fact, one of the things
that occurred to me

was that very few women die in the book,

and a lot of men are killed
quite horribly,

(Sibel): (laughs)

(Tom): which is very unusual for a spy thriller.'

Like I say, the usual journey of a woman
in a spy story

is meets handsome spy, gets laid,
ends up dead.

And you've just sort of...
"No, no, not having any of that."

That's not the story you wanted to tell.

So you really have...

-- and I think part of this is because
you're a woman writing this --

is, you've told a very, very different
sort of story.

And I thought... yeah, I just thought
that as one example

of how you've subverted
the usual stereotyping.

I thought that was extremely effective.

(Sibel): It's true. And the sex, actually,
has a lot to do with it.

Because there is not much sex
in this book, per se.

You know, the hot and steamy sex
that you see so much.

And... but yet, it had a lot
to do with it.

Again, challenging that whole notion.

It's one of the things that has always
driven me mad, crazy,

with all these canned novels.

And that is, how sex is used,

and how they use gender.

And both intentionally, but because
of the kind of person I am,

I really set to challenge that.

And again, the stereotyping:

I mean, whether it's 007, they always
have these gorgeous,

big boobs, tall, long-legged women,

and they are sexy, and they have
husky voice,

and it is always assumed by these spies
-- the CIA operatives, or Bond --

I mean, these guys:
I call it the penis factor.

I mean, they have really
successful penises.

And I'm not belittling things,
or being ridiculous,

but they're like these macho,
sexual, highly-sexual...

It's... look at real life, again:

and again, when you meet some
of these people

who operated for decades as operatives

and it really doesn't have anything to do

with those glamorized and sexualized
notions, as people portray.

Yet, interestingly, the few operatives
-- female operatives --

that I got to know from the Agency,

there are a lot of administrative,
analyst females;

but as far as operatives, their number's
not that high.

But even with the little number
of operatives,

usually they are assigned to more,
let's say, administrative fronts.

They go through the training,
but after that,

they are not assigned to the
same operations,

or the same kinds of operations,

as the male operatives.

And another interesting thing is, the CIA,

as part of their female operatives,

they use them a lot for sex: for baiting.

When... the people who...
the agents in charge,

the operatives in charge are men.

And then you get to the whole notion of,
really, how do you define prostitution?

It's like, if you exchange sex for money
or for something of value,

then you are a prostitute.

And I don't have anything against
prostitution.

I think it should be legalized,

and I don't put down prostitutes.

But that's exactly what the CIA does:

because these female operatives,
they do lure, sometimes, some targets.

And it's always about sex,

and they offer themselves,
and they have sex.

And they basically. in most cases,
that's where it ends with them.

Then it goes to the next level,
because that's...

it's referred to as the "hooking process."

It happens a lot with the espionage
activities that even FBI surveils,

not with the FBI agents,

but when you look at the spies operating
in the United States, or vice-versa,

and you are monitoring them,

the first thing that they try to do to
hook people, besides money, is sex.

Filming people having
extramarital affairs,

then they go blackmail the person,

and then they get information in return.

Let's say, if the target is someone who's
working in the State Department.

And with the CIA female agents,
they're put out there as the sex objects,

so they trade sex for information,
and then they get salaries.

They get monthly income and
their annual salaries.

Therefore, they get paid for having sex,

if you come through that linear...
whatever, thinking.

So, it's some sort of a prostitution.

Anyhow, what I was trying to say is,

with this book, I tried to get into the
realism of how things happen,

and maybe many people expected

that there would be some, maybe,
hot and steamy sex,

such things between Greg MacPherson
and Elsie.

And no, it's not.

And it's not used in any way as fillers;

because, as I said... I don't know,
I was talking to someone:

I have given several interviews
back-to-back in the past two weeks.

It's the pages and pages taken up

about "ooh"-ing and "ah"-ing and
moaning and grunting and meowing:

(laughter) the sex scenes.

I mean, just like, "Oh my God,
there goes nine pages!"

I call those the fillers,
the true fillers.

Now, if you're writing a novel,
not a spy thriller,

or writing a novel on sex,

then absolutely: that's the thesis
of your book.

But if you're writing on these types
of topics and operations,

and if you spend 25, 30 percent
of your page numbers

on these moanings and meowings
(laughs) and gruntings,

then that's just... again, it furthers you
from the realism aspect of...

and again, it's contradictory, isn't it?
Saying "fiction" and "realism?"

But I believe that sincerity, that realism,

that truthfulness comes across in a book,

and that applies also
to spy thriller fictions.

If you don't have that true
realism element

as the backbone of it,

and if you are not sincere as an author,

then I don't think... I don't consider
that a book that I would want to read.

(Tom): No, and on the whole, they're not
books that I strictly want to read.

I mean, my main reason for reading
so many of them

is I'm a bit obsessed with this:

I'm obsessed with figuring out which
of these stories

are being sponsored in some way
by the state,

whether that's the intelligence agencies
or the Deep State.

I know you've only got a few minutes left,

so there is something that I did want
to ask you about

that is kind of tangential:

and that's the TV show Homeland,

which I'm sure you don't watch, but...

(Sibel): No. (laughs) I have seen
references,

and I have seen some stuff on YouTube.

Because one of the things we did,
in 2004, we disconnected all our cable.

So we don't have anything like HBO, or...
we don't have any channels.

And especially after I became a mother,
that became even more important.

So we watch DVDs and rent DVDs, and... no:

I'm familiar with the general concept,
but I haven't seen it.

(Tom): Well, it is the... if you like, the
premier CIA-assisted TV show right now.

It's totally their baby.

I mean, I think the third season
premiered at Langley:

it's that deeply involved with the CIA.

And there was just a couple of things
I wanted to tell you about

that I thought would amuse you,
if nothing else.

There is a character in this show

who is clearly based on you.

She's an Iranian woman,

she is recruited by the CIA in the
aftermath of a major terrorist attack,

She is the Middle Eastern
language specialist

who turns out to be a hotshot
intelligence analyst.

She's you. I mean, seriously!

So, that's obviously what
they've done here.

And she's now in the fourth season,
which is showing currently.

She's become a regular character.

She's become quite a
main character in this.

And my take on this is that, I suppose,
imitation is the best form of flattery.

(laughter) I'd just love to get your
quick reaction.

(Sibel): Oh, that is very interesting!
I'm really gonna look into that.

But on the reality side of it,

I have been, in the past,
when I was going to university,

George Washington University,

I have been approached several times
from recruiters from the CIA.

Because they look at certain criteria:

so, language abilities,
and if you don't look too awful,

and if you have current, up-to-date deep
information, knowledge of the area,

et cetera, et cetera.

You become, like, a hot target
to be recruited.

And interestingly, two of those instances,

I was approached by my professors,

by professors in George Washington
University.

They... interestingly, after class,
they wanted to meet me:

"Have you considered doing this?
Because you would be very valuble."

"And this is how you would get..."

So, that's interesting.

And my answer has always been "no."

Because I have had this pretty intense
disdain towards the CIA,

I would say since the age four or five?
(laughter)

I knew the term "CIA."

My father, he had been arrested
several times, and he was tortured.

But the first time he was arrested,
I was about four years old.

And he was tortured during Shah's
regime in Iran, by SAVAK.

And they actually pulled off his toenails,
et cetera.

But during that era,

it was the CIA and their people

who regularly came to Iran, to Tehran,

and they held training sessions
with the SAVAK

on various interrogation techniques.

I don't think they used waterboarding
back then;

I'm not sure: maybe they did.

But the equipment, also, they used,
the torture equipment,

they all came from the United States.
(laughs)

And it was subsidized by the taxpayers
here in the US, too.

But that was my first introduction
to the CIA.

And of course, with Elsie Simon's
experience here...

I don't want to give away too much
from the book.

We know that she has some parallel
operation of her own,

because of her disdain for the CIA
and what happened to her father.

Which, to a certain degree,
mirrors reality.

So, that's the feeling I have
had for the CIA

for a very, very long time:

long before becoming an FBI whistleblower.

And I think that feeling is shared
by many people in the Middle East,

and a certain generation al in South,
Central America.

You're looking at this agency: I mean,

if you were to ask people,

Americans don't even know
what the CIA is about.

I mean, they say,

"OK, they are there to
collect intelligence,"

"and make sure we are not attacked,
and protect our interests."

That has nothing to do (laughs)
with what CIA does.

And if CIA as an agency,
and their operations,

are really identified factually...
-- put out there as what they do --

I don't think you would find...

-- maybe except for a few dozens
of psychopaths --

you will not find many people who
would want to have, as taxpayers,

an agency, an official agency
called the CIA.

I know very few politicians in the history
of this country

who have actually challenged even
the existence of this agency.

I know one person that was
Congressman, at the time, Ron Paul.

He said the CIA should be eliminated.

and we shouldn't have an
agency called CIA.

And that was greeted by such
uproar, outrage.

People not knowing what the CIA is,

they were like, "Our country will
be destroyed."

"If we don't have CIA,
we won't even exist."

CIA has been made to be as necessary
as oxygen to mankind,

and without this agency we
wouldn't survive.

Because nobody, really, has any idea
of what this agency does,

except the recipients of the operations
implemented by the CIA overseas.

So yeah, I will look into that, into
this character.

But, she works for them.

So there is a big, big difference.

(Tom): Yeah, that's a bit of a
difference there.

(Sibel): [xx] Right.

(Tom): One tiny little more detail that
I wanted to quickly tell you about:

in the latest series of this show,

the central character, who is called
Carrie Mattheson

-- unusually, female central character,

but that's becoming a little bit more
popular --

she actually adopts the name Carrie
MacPherson as an alias in one episode.

So there isn't any doubt in my mind

that someone on the writing staff
for this show

knows about you, knows about
The Lone Gladio.

And I think this is a good sign:
I think you're getting to them.

I think these are little signs that
what you're doing is working,

because otherwise they'd just ignore you.

I think they can't leave it alone:

that's why these little things
make it into the show.

It's because they feel they can't
just sort of ignore you and leave it,

let it be and just go away in peace.

But of course, this is the CIA we're
talking about.

That's just not their attitude, is it?

But you've been very, very generous
with your time, Sibel.

It has been... it's been great
talking to you.

Thank you for writing this book, firstly,

but also thank you for coming
on the show to talk about it.

And do you quickly just want to tell
people where they can get the book,

and where they can learn more about it?

(Sibel): Sure! First of all, it was an honor.

It is an honor to be invited by you.

I remember when we started Gladio
series with James Corbett's site

and you had some interview with him,

people had mentioned that, oh, well,

Tom Secker had said this about the
historical context

and I usually say that as far as expertise
of the original Operation Gladio

and the details about it,

you've got to look at him and get
the details from him.

He's the expert.

I don't consider myself in any way
an expert on Operation Gladio,

especially during the Cold War
and its beginning.

I have read... I'm still reading,

but I know you have been doing it
for a long time,

and I know you have so much detail.

So thank you: it's an honor.

For Lone Gladio, people can find it:
I have a website.

The book has a website: it's
TheLoneGladio.com,

and on that site we have all the
purchasing channels available there,

whether it's Amazon or Kindle or
Barnes and Noble NOOK.

But also people can purchase it
directly from me,

because I know certain countries
people can't get it

because Amazon doesn't have distribution,

or Kindle is not available there.

So we also have a channel set
up there for people

who can order it there and we
be ship anywhere in the world.

So I don't know the process is of
shipping to Iran, for example. (laughs)

Do we have... can we ship anything
to Iran? I don't know. (laughs)

(Tom): It may not get there.

(Sibel): Maybe indirectly.

But they can go to TheLoneGladio.com
and see all the channels,

such as Amazon and Kindle.

And I want to also quickly mention
that it means so much

when people read this and then
give their two cents.

Whether it's criticism, or it is the
praise, or any kind off feedback,

on the sites like Amazon or
Boiling Frogs Post on YouTube.

Because for me, that's what counts.

This book is...

-- right now and since I
started writing it --

was and is meant to be a trilogy.

But I made a pact with myself,

and I made it loudly so my husband
is a witness. (laughs)

I said I will not write the second or the
third book in the series

unless I really get a sense that this
is successful.

Not in terms of dollars, successful
in terms of how it is received.

Has it induced some level of
critical thinking,

and the reaction and responses
that I get to it.

Because I'm not a believer of
that you do something,

and even if it looks terrible,
you go and keep repeating it.

I don't see any point in doing that.

Therefore, it's really valuable,
important for me

to hear from people who read that,
or who have read that.

And they say, "OK, here is what
influenced me,"

or, "This is what I liked or didn't like,"

or "This is how I consider this book."

So all these mean a lot to me,

especially since this is not being
marketed and promoted

through any mainstream media newspapers,

New York Times news, et cetera.

Those, actually, are far less
meaningful for me,

because as you know, they are always
done with some sort of agenda.

Or even when it's not agenda,
it's so canned.

They get so many of books,
and they just leaf through it,

and they sit down and write some reviews

by highlighting a couple of points
here and there.

Pretty much shallow stuff.

On the other hand,

people who truly read The Lone Gladio
or Classified Woman,

then they come and they put
their two cents out there,

a few sentences,

that, to me, means so much more.

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so hopefully we will get more
reaction, feedback on the book.

And again, the website is
TheLoneGladio.com.

(Tom): Once again, that was Sibel
Edmonds of TheLoneGladio.com

and BoilingFrogsPost.com.

Now, before I wrap things up
for this week,

I will once again implore you to
get this book, The Lone Gladio,

because it really is a hugely enjoyable
and profoundly interesting book.

And on the subject of books, for those
of you who haven't yet noticed,

I have now made my own book,
Secrets, Spies, and 7/7,

available to download for free
from my website,

InvestigatingTheTerror.com.

If you put Secrets, Spies, and 7/7
into a search engine,

then the first result is usually
this page for the book.

So you can get there that way.

Alternatively, if you go to SpyCulture.com

or InvestigatingTheTerror.com

you'll see on the front page
a big black graphic,

and if you click on that, it will take you
to the page

with all the links for buying the book
and downloading it.

I put it up in PDF format and EPUB
and [xx] format,

so depending on whether you're
reading it on a computer screen

or via an e-book reader, pick a file
that suits you best.

So feel free to go and download it
and share it around,

and recommend it to anyone
who might be interested in it.

But we'll finish there for this episode.

As always, I am Tom Secker
of SpyCulture.com.

So, thanks for listening.

Take care, and join me again soon
for another ClandesTime.

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