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- [21:29] <aldaron> hola
- [21:29] <Symphonyx64> hi
- [21:30] <aldaron> [20:36:30] <&aldaron> because a.) showdown is the official simulator b.) any argument they have is based on server faults c.) previous is made utterly irrelevant by the fact that by chosing to play on a non official sim, they open themselves to risk
- [21:30] <aldaron> [20:36:35] <&aldaron> its pretty cut and dry logic
- [21:30] <aldaron> [20:37:28] <&aldaron> due to showdown's "rejoin battle" feature, any "lagged out" issues due to ANY reason are irrelevant
- [21:30] <Symphonyx64> I saw that
- [21:30] <aldaron> cause its probably about that :P
- [21:31] <Symphonyx64> Unfortunately, I cannot grant you the win based on that.
- [21:31] <aldaron> what is the justification for that?
- [21:32] <Symphonyx64> Because if you look at ST9 for example, you can play BW2 on PO 2 if both players agree
- [21:32] <Symphonyx64> and all the risks of playing on a certain simulator falls on the players
- [21:32] <aldaron> exactly
- [21:32] <aldaron> it fell on poppy
- [21:32] <aldaron> he lagged out
- [21:32] <aldaron> thats his fault becase as you said, "all the risks of playing on a certain simulator falls on the players"
- [21:33] <aldaron> i would say the same if hugendugen lagged out on po2
- [21:33] <Symphonyx64> okay so hugendugen can exercise his options for d/c
- [21:33] <Symphonyx64> recreate the match, same teams, etc
- [21:34] <Symphonyx64> there wont be any free win
- [21:34] <aldaron> um
- [21:35] <aldaron> you are aware poppy timed out right
- [21:35] <aldaron> "Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses."
- [21:35] <aldaron> straight from the standard official bw tournament rules -_-
- [21:35] <aldaron> The battle ended by timeout.
- [21:36] <Symphonyx64> where did you get that from
- [21:36] <aldaron> get what from
- [21:37] <Symphonyx64> "Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses."
- [21:37] <aldaron> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3476717
- [21:37] <Symphonyx64> Disconnections and Timer Clause: In live tournaments with short time constraints such as the Smogon Tour, if a player disconnects or times out, the opponent may take the win. In other tournaments, if a player disconnects and contends that they could still win, the optimal solution is to recreate the exact situation the disconnection occurred at during the battle. If this is not feasible due to unreasonable battle length, highly improba
- [21:37] <Symphonyx64> circumstances, or some other reason, the player who did not disconnect may choose to rematch with either the same teams or (the option to use) new teams. Timing out is still classified as a loss, unless the reason for timing out is a disconnection. If there is any suspicion that a disconnect was carried out deliberately to take advantage of this rule in any way, we reserve the right to exercise a harsh punishment.
- [21:38] <Symphonyx64> Lag falls under that catagory
- [21:39] <aldaron> where does it say lag falls under that category?
- [21:39] <aldaron> also even if lag does (and i am not admitting it does), how can you prove 100% without a doubt it was lag that caused the time out
- [21:41] <aldaron> also if you want precedence for how a time out has been applied in a team tournament before, in the recent wcop, sogeking and roxou were playing, roxou timed out, and soge took the win, they didnt replay, i dont see why we would replay in spl
- [21:44] <Symphonyx64> in that situation, roxou was seeking advice and running damage calcs
- [21:44] <Symphonyx64> there was no lag
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:39:25] <aldaron> also even if lag does (and i am not admitting it does), how can you prove 100% without a doubt it was lag that caused the time out
- [21:44] <Symphonyx64> thats what I have to decide
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:13] <&JabbaTheGriffin> Timing out is still classified as a loss, unless the reason for timing out is a disconnection.
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:15] <&JabbaTheGriffin> that is in the rules
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:19] <&JabbaTheGriffin> you cannot simply ignore that
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:47] <&JabbaTheGriffin> honestly i don't even care if he had slight lag
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:57] <&JabbaTheGriffin> if you're lagging a bit, don't let yourself fall under 30 seconds
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:41:59] <&JabbaTheGriffin> that's common sense
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:42:12] <&JabbaTheGriffin> (also "lag" can't be proven"
- [21:44] <aldaron> [21:42:14] <&JabbaTheGriffin> )
- [21:44] <aldaron> for what other people think
- [21:45] <aldaron> lag never lets you get under 30 seconds
- [21:45] <aldaron> with just lag
- [21:45] <aldaron> do you honestly believe
- [21:45] <aldaron> just lag
- [21:45] <aldaron> got poppy under 30 seconds?
- [21:45] <aldaron> po2 has 5 minutes start + boost on move
- [21:45] <aldaron> there were 47 turns to that battle
- [21:46] <aldaron> there is no way there wasn't "advice given" during a 47 turn battle where the timer gets below 30 seconds
- [21:46] <aldaron> its not "just lag" (as if lag is proveable in the first place)
- [21:49] <aldaron> if the issues here is "lag," you have to do 3 things: a.) show me where lag even applies in the rules b.) prove without a doubt that it was lag that caused the dc c.) prove that no advice was given / damage calcs done d.) justify with blue's ruling with roxou / sogeking shouldnt apply in the absence of 100% irrefutable proof for c
- [21:49] <aldaron> i think it's quite clear all of a - d can't be done with any certainty
- [21:49] <aldaron> just the idea that pure lag and only lag could get you below 30 seconds is highly doubtful
- [21:53] <aldaron> this is after all spl, saying a team was giving a player advice is far more likely that claiming a player "lagged out" of a 47 turn battle due SOLELY to lag
- [21:56] <aldaron> its noteworthy that poppys timer was really high until about 4 turns left in the game and then he started taking forever when he realized he was in trouble, its not like it was a consistent issue as in he was > 4m almost all game
- [22:02] <Symphonyx64> Okay
- [22:02] <Symphonyx64> So poppy was not lagging the whole time, only until he made his move when he had 30 seconds left
- [22:02] <Symphonyx64> still havent come to a decision tho
- [22:02] <Symphonyx64> hang tight
- [22:04] <aldaron> since this feels like a courtroom, let me make my "final argument" once again:
- [22:05] <aldaron> remember, their entire argument stands on "lag," meaning they have 4 responsibilities to force a rematch: a.) prove absolutely that lag falls under that category in the rules b.) prove WITHOUT A DOUBT it was only lag that caused the dc c.) prove no advice was given at all d.) in absense of c, why blue's decision regarding sogeking / roxou doesn't apply as precedent
- [22:06] <aldaron> and about b, the way poppy didnt lag throughout the match and then only "lagged" when he was in trouble
- [22:06] <aldaron> is highly suspicious
- [22:06] <aldaron> at the least it shows it wasnt _only_ lag
- [22:06] <Symphonyx64> others were also reporting lag in the chat
- [22:07] <aldaron> was hugen?
- [22:07] <aldaron> since the issue is about the battlers' unique connection to the server
- [22:07] <aldaron> (which is different than a standard user on po)
- [22:07] <Symphonyx64> Hugen was not
- [22:07] <Symphonyx64> according to him anyways
- [22:07] <aldaron> (a battler has a different connection to the server in a po2 battle than a user watching)
- [22:08] <aldaron> so its more likely two battlers have similar scenarios than a battler and a user watching
- [22:19] <aldaron> btw, poppy posted this: gg
- [22:19] <aldaron> fun match
- [22:20] <aldaron> before it was delayed
- [22:20] <aldaron> deleted *
- [22:20] <aldaron> meaning poppy himself accepted it
- [22:20] <aldaron> just limitless / kg playing games
- [22:28] <aldaron> btw blue's decision with sogeking and roxou applies now right? since you said [21:44:10] <Symphonyx64> in that situation, roxou was seeking advice and running damage calcs
- [22:28] <aldaron> and poppy just admitted to running damage calcs
- [22:28] <Symphonyx64> yea poppy was running damage calcs
- [22:28] <aldaron> so this is pretty clear right :P
- [22:29] <aldaron> since blue's decision is a direct precedent
- [22:29] <Symphonyx64> But there was no lag whatsoever,roxous was just lazy
- [22:29] <Symphonyx64> poppy was facing lag
- [22:29] <Symphonyx64> but that doesnt mean roxou wouldnt have faced lag if he made a move
- [22:43] <aldarOFF> where do we stand?
- [22:43] <aldarOFF> im an old man i have to go to work tomorrow :P
- [22:43] <Symphonyx64> Same place where we left off
- [22:43] <Symphonyx64> no decision
- [22:43] <Symphonyx64> :P
- [22:44] <aldarOFF> ugh
- [22:44] <Symphonyx64> no you are a responsible man for working
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