[04:20] <@Melee_Mewtwo> honestly it's jsut a worse venusaur lol
[04:21] <superstar> does it have anything over venusaur other than weather ball?
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no
[04:21] <%polop> except it gets sucker punch and weather ball
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and weather ball is only good for hitting dialga
[04:21] <@shrang> I personally think it's better than venusaur
[04:21] <&@Theorymon> thats like the whole point lol, weather ball
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> which venu gets EQ
[04:21] <@shrang> because of weather ball
[04:21] <%polop> !learn Victreebell, Sucker Punch
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[04:21] <+TIBot> "victreebell" is not a valid Pokemon.
[04:21] <@shrang> venusaur is ass
[04:21] <%polop> asdf
[04:21] <@shrang> really ass
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and victree
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is a wanna be venusaur
[04:21] <@Melee_Mewtwo> sooooo
[04:21] <@shrang> I personally think victreebel is better than venusaur
[04:22] <@shrang> because of weather ball
[04:22] <@Melee_Mewtwo> weather ball only hits dialga though
[04:22] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and use can use EQ for that
[04:22] <@shrang> "only" hits dialga
[04:22] <@shrang> and like a million other steels too
[04:22] <@shrang> like um
[04:22] <@shrang> skarm
[04:22] <@shrang> ferro
[04:22] <@shrang> forry
[04:22] <@shrang> steelceus
[04:22] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but HP fire
[04:22] <@shrang> jirachi
[04:22] <@shrang> hp fire is ass
[04:22] <@Melee_Mewtwo> deals from venu deals with them as well
[04:23] <superstar> venu doesn't really have a better HP to run tho
[04:23] <@shrang> ice?
[04:23] <@shrang> or um
[04:23] <@shrang> rock
[04:23] <@shrang> because fuck ho-oh
[04:24] <@shrang> personally I think victreebel is better off as an all out attacker
[04:24] <@shrang> you're not setting up easily at all
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but even with weather ball
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you still have ass coverage
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and the extra HP
[04:24] <superstar> sludge bomb, hp ice/rock, giga drain, weather ball
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is only a secondary option to sludge bomb
[04:24] <superstar> not terrible i guess but kinda weak
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> so victree would be stab, sludge, weather
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and venu could be stab, hp, slude
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> same thing
[04:24] <@Melee_Mewtwo> except you miss dialga
[04:25] <@shrang> don't say EQ pls
[04:25] <@shrang> it's also ass on venusaur
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no I didn't :p
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I'm just saying
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> if you are desperate to beat dialga
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you can
[04:25] <@shrang> grass knot / weather ball / hp rock / sludge
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but that's really such a small thing for a sun sweeper to do
[04:25] <@shrang> looks pretty good to me
[04:25] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no powder?
[04:25] <@shrang> fuck powder
[04:25] <@shrang> you already have shit coverage as it is
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> now you can't do anything to latias
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah exactly
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> at least sleep gets you a psuedo KO
[04:26] <@shrang> you weren't doing anything to latias
[04:26] <@shrang> with venusaur
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> on whatev coverage you miss ou ton
[04:26] <@shrang> even with sleep
[04:26] <@shrang> latias laughs at you even when you're asleep
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you aren't doing anything to it with victree lol
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but at least
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> its out of the way for the rest of the team
[04:26] <@shrang> neither are you doing any with venusaur
[04:26] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I'm just not seeing wherer victree does more
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> besides dialga
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> while venu does more for everythign else
[04:27] <@shrang> um no it doesn't
[04:27] <@shrang> venusaur fares no better against anything
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah it can run modest
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause it isn't outsped by scarf sect
[04:27] <@shrang> you're still outsped by scarf terrak anyway
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but victree
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> has to run timid
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause scarf sect will beat it
[04:27] Nick change: ibo|away -> ibojangles
[04:27] <@Melee_Mewtwo> otherwise
[04:27] <@shrang> but victreebel gets that additional coverage
[04:28] <@shrang> you can run hp rock now
[04:28] <@shrang> while having a better fire move
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> if you want to opt out of powder
[04:28] <superstar> on ho-oh and dialga, what else?
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> the fire move only counts for dialga
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I remember calcing it
[04:28] <@shrang> "only"
[04:28] <@shrang> lol
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> HP fire did the same
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and I still think sleep
[04:28] <@shrang> wut
[04:28] <@shrang> how does that make any sense
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is a lot better than HP rock
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah iirc
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> they both OHKO
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> weather is just overkill lol
[04:28] <@Nexus> what have I done -__-
[04:28] <@Melee_Mewtwo> :p
[04:29] <@shrang> no
[04:29] <@Melee_Mewtwo> hold on let me double check
[04:29] <@shrang> weather ball vs dialga
[04:29] <@shrang> and hp fire vs dialga
[04:29] <@shrang> pls tell me
[04:29] <@shrang> they are the same
[04:29] <@shrang> I dare you
[04:29] <superstar> weather ball is a 2HKO on 252/0
[04:29] <superstar> hp fire is a 3HKO
[04:29] <superstar> assuming both are modest
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no I said that already
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> that except for dialga
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> its the same
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> victre is always timid
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> it has to be
[04:30] <@Melee_Mewtwo> venu can run modest
[04:30] <superstar> it's a 75% chance of 2HKO after rocks with timid
[04:31] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but yeah you actually miss out on the OHKO on skarm that's true
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[04:31] <@shrang> js
[04:31] <@shrang> 67.07% - 79.04%
[04:31] <@shrang> is how much hp fire does to skarm
[04:31] <@shrang> 88.02% - 104.19%
[04:31] <@shrang> is weather ball
[04:31] <superstar> (75.53 - 88.99%)
[04:31] <superstar> you forgot modest
[04:31] <@Melee_Mewtwo> 75% min
[04:31] <superstar> default for venu is timid on honko
[04:31] <@shrang> no I did modest
[04:32] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I got the same calc as superstar
[04:32] <superstar> 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory in sun: 247-291 (73.95 - 87.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[04:32] <superstar> honko's calc might be unreliable tho
[04:32] <@shrang> oh wait
[04:32] <@shrang> 262 SpD
[04:32] <@shrang> not 284
[04:32] <superstar> it lost me a minitour the other day
[04:32] <@shrang> I gt
[04:32] <@shrang> 328 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 244 - 288 (73.05% - 86.23%)
[04:33] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you sorta miss out on the 2HKO on rachi too
[04:33] <@shrang> 299 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 316 - 374 (94.61% - 111.98%)
[04:33] <@shrang> is victreebel
[04:34] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah so dialga, skarm, sorta rachi
[04:34] <@Melee_Mewtwo> vs the 10% loss on all the other attacks
[04:34] <superstar> what is skarm doing back though?
[04:34] <superstar> it's not brave birding in ubers
[04:35] <%faint> IT IS NOW
[04:35] <%faint> HA
[04:35] <@Melee_Mewtwo> lol
[04:35] <superstar> lul
[04:35] <@shrang> uh
[04:35] <@shrang> whirlwind?
[04:35] <@shrang> spikes?
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> it's not switching in mind you
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> so it's situational
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and it still coems at the price of the 10% drop on sludge and gknot
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> whcih actually counts
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> A LOT
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 199-235 (44.81 - 52.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> vs
[04:36] <@Melee_Mewtwo> 252 SpA Life Orb Victreebel SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%) -- 72.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> oh lame
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> fair enough
[04:37] <@shrang> you still lose against ghostceus though
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> well my point was that it can't switch in
[04:37] <@shrang> you grass knot
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but eh
[04:37] <@shrang> they CM
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> not going to gripe about 30*
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> %*
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no I mean
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> them coming in
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you gknot as they come in
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and gknot again
[04:37] <@shrang> oh
[04:37] <@shrang> and you forgot ho-oh
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but 30% diff
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> doesn't matter
[04:37] <@shrang> because you get hp rock now
[04:37] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and that'll apply for everythign
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no I disagree that HP rock
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is worth losing powder
[04:38] <@shrang> it's not ohkoing, but they can't switch in either
[04:38] <%faint> in ou venusaur sleeps what it can't beat
[04:38] <superstar> 252 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 218-260 (52.53 - 62.65%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
[04:38] <%faint> i believe it should do the same in ubers
[04:38] <%faint> therefore spowder is better
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I'm sorry shrang
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you should never drop powder
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> if you learn it
[04:38] <&@Theorymon> OBJECTION!
[04:38] <@Melee_Mewtwo> okay maybe not never
[04:39] <&@Theorymon> who uses Sleep Poweder Smeargle
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but for venusar/victree
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> lol okay
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> a solid sleep move*
[04:39] <@shrang> actually
[04:39] <@shrang> a lot of people drop sleep powder on venusaur/chlorophyll users
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> ehhh seein how minor the differences are
[04:39] <@shrang> case in point
[04:39] <@shrang> venusaur
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you might as well call them equal
[04:39] <@shrang> in OU at least
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> whata?
[04:39] <@Melee_Mewtwo> really?
[04:40] <@shrang> yes
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> well if so
[04:40] <@shrang> growth / sludge bomb / giga / hp fire
[04:40] <@shrang> is standard
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I'm assumign cause it gets good coverage
[04:40] <@shrang> for venusaur
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> oh yeah
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause not much walsl it now
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> unlike ubers
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> where it still has coverage issues
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> so you need powder
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> to at least remove one counter
[04:40] <@Melee_Mewtwo> for the rest of the team
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but yeah seeing how minor the differences actually are
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I can change to pass
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> but we really need to fix that skeleton
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> it was way too bare bones
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and needs to stress
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> that it's a venusaur clone
[04:41] <@shrang> yea
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> sadly
[04:41] <@shrang> I think we need all out attacking for victreebel
[04:41] <@Melee_Mewtwo> alfalfa is writing it :/
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah allout attacker I agree is best
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> that should be the only set
[04:42] <@shrang> you really want to take advantage of weather ball and additional coverage
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> same for venusaur but that we can deal with later
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> nah I still disagree
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> Powder > some incomplete HP
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> weather ball has the advantage of dialga
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and extra ensurance against steels
[04:42] <@shrang> depends on what your other coverage move is for venusaur
[04:42] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and venu has the extra ensurance against arc formes
[04:43] <@shrang> pls do not use
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> no I think for both
[04:43] <@shrang> growth / sleep / gk / sludge bomb
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> the sets should be
[04:43] <@shrang> because I will flip the shits
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> GK/Bomb/Fire/powder
[04:43] <@shrang> I remember when barry4ever used it
[04:43] <@shrang> and I was like
[04:43] <@shrang> "what a piece of shit"
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> both mons should be running that set
[04:43] <@shrang> have fun getting walled by everything
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> double stab + fire coverage + sleep
[04:43] <@Melee_Mewtwo> we should also stress
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> that being a venusaur clone sucks
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause he sucks
[04:44] <@shrang> victreebel is better off with 4 attacks
[04:44] <myzozoa> grass knot venu is pretty great
[04:44] <@shrang> otherwise you're just using venusaur
[04:44] <myzozoa> doesnt it have sleep powder
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but with 4 attacks
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> venu is better
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah they both do
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you want powder
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> KOing ho oh
[04:44] <@Melee_Mewtwo> isn't worth being forever usless
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause they run a latitwin
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> or something
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> powder at least
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> removes it for the rest of the team
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> whcih for venu/victree
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is an accomplishment
[04:45] <@Melee_Mewtwo> HP Rock is worth AC imo
[04:46] <@Melee_Mewtwo> or even OO
[04:46] <@shrang> hp rock is worth a slash IMO
[04:46] <@shrang> it's one thing that lets you not be using a shitty venusaur
[04:47] <@shrang> other than weather ball being more powerful
[04:47] <@shrang> lol
[04:47] <@shrang> http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-ubers-role-comparison-project.3484561/#post-4778713
[04:47] <@shrang> xatu vs espeon as a magic bouncer
[04:47] <@Melee_Mewtwo> imo droppping powder
[04:47] <@Melee_Mewtwo> means you are a shitty venu imo
[04:47] <@shrang> advantages of xatu: everything
[04:47] <@Melee_Mewtwo> since if your opponent pakcs any of the multiple counters
[04:47] <@shrang> advantages of espeon: free win for you
[04:47] <@shrang> :D
[04:47] <@Melee_Mewtwo> victree won't do a thing
[04:48] <@shrang> hp rock lets you damage ho-oh
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> if they bring a latias for example
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> victreebel
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> won't do a damn thing
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> the entire match
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[04:48] <@shrang> which is the entire point of using weather ball in the first place
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> it has no way to get past it
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> at least with powder
[04:48] <@shrang> if they bring in latias
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you can sleep it
[04:48] <@shrang> you have a sun team
[04:48] <@shrang> which probably has like
[04:48] <@shrang> ho-oh on it
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah but my point
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is that the victree mon
[04:48] <@Melee_Mewtwo> is doing jack shit
[04:49] <@shrang> so?
[04:49] <@Melee_Mewtwo> so going 5-6 sucks
[04:49] <@Melee_Mewtwo> at least sleep
[04:49] <@shrang> ho-oh is a bigger threat to you
[04:49] <@Melee_Mewtwo> evens things out
[04:49] <@shrang> than latias
[04:49] <@shrang> if you're using a sun team
[04:49] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you can sleep ho oh too lol
[04:49] <@shrang> ho-oh uses sleep talk more than latias does
[04:49] <@shrang> and lasts longer
[04:49] <@shrang> generally
[04:49] <@Melee_Mewtwo> hmm good point on sleep talk
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> although that's only choice sets
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and they lose control
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> over ho oh
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and sun teams
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> nvm
[04:50] <@shrang> like seriously
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> not even going to bring the team in
[04:50] <@shrang> if you're not using another hidden power on victreebel
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> cause fi you are using victree/venu
[04:50] <@shrang> you're wasting what weather ball just got you IMO
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> you are desperate
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> well weather ball gets you minor buffs
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and there's no point in being special
[04:50] <@shrang> half the advantage of weather ball
[04:50] <@Melee_Mewtwo> if it's inferior
[04:51] <@shrang> is so you can run another coverage move
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I think
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> HP rock
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> would be better slashed with sludge bomb
[04:51] <@shrang> if you don't want to run hp rock
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> than powder
[04:51] <@shrang> you can run hp ice
[04:51] <@shrang> for ray
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I think it would be
[04:51] <@shrang> who actually outspeeds you
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> gknot, powder, weather
[04:51] <@shrang> yeah I guess
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> Slugdge/hp rock/hp ice
[04:51] <@shrang> sludge bomb is ass anyway
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> or HP rock first
[04:51] <@shrang> hp rock / gk / weather ball
[04:51] <@Melee_Mewtwo> whichever
[04:52] <@shrang> or hp ice / gk / weather ball
[04:52] <@Melee_Mewtwo> yeah that sounds fair enough
[04:52] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I'm too lazy to type a decent post
[04:52] <@shrang> you hit grass harder with weather ball anyway
[04:52] <@Melee_Mewtwo> I'm going to double post
[04:52] <@Melee_Mewtwo> and pastebin this log
[04:52] <@shrang> lol