Rolling at REG REL and YOU

[22:00] <minusX> Hey guys I have a question
[22:01] <minusX> Local store does a few 8 person drafts and often the top two split, wer needs a winner for it to be submitted so they go "Who wants to points" and people go "Rock paper scissor" and shudder
[22:01] <minusX> should I care about that part?
[22:01] <JoeH> Yes.
[22:01] <bearz> Yeah, you should
[22:03] <amullins> I would make an announcement before the event that this is not acceptable behavior and can result in a disqualification. Then inform them if they'd like to offer some sort of prize split they should call a judge so they can talk to you before anything happens that might get them DQ'd.
[22:05] <minusX> The store just is saying "who wants the points"
[22:05] <minusX> So how is this handled instead?
[22:06] <bearz> The players going R/P/S is Bad.
[22:06] <bearz> The store asking "who wants the points" is probably to be discouraged.
[22:06] * bprill2 (~bprill@.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[22:07] <bearz> I would privately talk to the store
[22:07] <bearz> And why this isn't OK (do you know why it's not OK?)
[22:07] * bprill_ (~bprill@.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) has joined #
[22:12] <minusX> It's no ok because this effects the integrity of the tourney
[22:12] <minusX> affects?
[22:12] <bearz> Affects.
[22:12] <bearz> Yes, sure, that's a platitude
[22:12] <bearz> Why is it /actually/ a problem besides some amorphous concept of "integrity"?
[22:14] <bprill_> Ooooo
[22:14] <JoeH> Eeeee
[22:15] <bprill_> What we talkin bout Willis?
[22:15] <minusX> Well in the tournment rules it falls under collusion and bribery
[22:15] <minusX> [22:00] <minusX> Hey guys I have a question
[22:15] <minusX> [22:01] <minusX> Local store does a few 8 person drafts and often the top two split, wer needs a winner for it to be submitted so they go "Who wants to points" and people go "Rock paper scissor" and shudder
[22:15] <minusX> [22:01] <minusX> should I care about that part?
[22:15] <JoeH> minusX: Why is that in there and so harsh, though?
[22:15] <bearz> Are you familiar with some of the weird restrictions that Magic events in Europe and parts of Canada have?
[22:15] <JoeH> Does the DCI /really/ hate RPS and/or dice?
[22:15] <amullins> bprill_ needs to stop phasing
[22:16] * bprill_ is now known as bprill
[22:16] <minusX> I don't know the weird euro/canadadadada rules
[22:16] <minusX> Is it the fact everyone gets product or somthing?
[22:16] <bearz> Yes, that is one of the things they do in parts of Canada.
[22:16] <bprill> There was a fee weird GPs in German where players got TVs and playstations instead of cash
[22:18] <bprill> So...if we play Rock Paper Scissors for the winner, what's deciding the winner? Luck or skill?
[22:18] <minusX> luck
[22:18] <bprill> Luck.  Pure luck
[22:18] <bprill> And if you play the slots...what determines if you win?  Luck? Or skill?
[22:19] <minusX> Luck and RNG that's against you
[22:19] <bprill> Rng?
[22:19] <bearz> Random Number Generator
[22:19] <bearz> (or God, depending on your faith)
[22:19] <JoeH> Really Neat God?
[22:19] <bprill> So, you get points...and 1st place based on luck?
[22:20] <JoeH> bprill: I think minusX might be able to walk the rest of the path without this level of handholding.
[22:20] <minusX> haha
[22:20] <bprill> Sounds an awful lot like gambling to some desk jockey making policy
[22:21] <minusX> So the rest of the it was skill just to be able to gamble
[22:21] <bprill> Really any "gamble" aspect has to be shut out
[22:21] <bprill> Stomped out with a vengeance
[22:21] <bprill> To keep magic in certain countries
[22:21] <JoeH> We should do away with the die roll to determine who chooses to play or draw.
[22:21] <bearz> Higher ELO goes first.
[22:22] <bearz> Excuse me, higher planeswalker level.
[22:22] <JoeH> Also, ban Goblin Test Pilot and Ral Zarek's ultimate.
[22:22] <minusX> So what's a reg REL event to do at the end when splits happen?
[22:22] <bprill> JoeH: Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you just being glib?
[22:22] <bearz> minusX: The split should be independent of the result.
[22:22] <amullins> *pulls out dci card* "Well I'm a level 52 planeswalker, what about you?"
[22:22] <bprill> They play or draw, or drop
[22:22] <bearz> ^
[22:23] <JoeH> Did I ask a question?  Probably choice #2, though.
[22:23] <bprill> There's no incentive to play
[22:23] <bprill> Just drop
[22:23] <minusX> WER complains on draws
[22:23] <minusX> so they just drop them?
[22:23] <bprill> You asked about doing away with the die roll to go first
[22:23] <amullins> Why does it complain about draws, is this being run as single elimination?
[22:23] <minusX> Yes
[22:23] <bprill> Ah
[22:23] <minusX> 8 person drafts that fire when we get enough people
[22:23] <bprill> Then yes, you need a winner
[22:24] <bearz> I assumed this was for the finals
[22:24] <bprill> If it's single elim
[22:24] <minusX> Yeah "we want to split"
[22:24] <minusX> So that another draft can fire
[22:24] <bearz> You can double-drop them from the finals
[22:24] <amullins> One of them can choose to drop. If they care about planeswalker points then they can still play for that
[22:24] <bearz> Or, seriously, most people just freaking draw in this situation
[22:24] <bearz> It's +EV for them both
[22:24] <amullins> You can't draw in a single elimination event
[22:24] <minusX> ^
[22:24] <minusX> WER says "We need another round DDDDDDDDD:"
[22:25] <bearz> WER sucks.
[22:25] <JoeH> ^
[22:25] <bearz> Anyway, sorry, I probably talked myself in a circle with that part
[22:25] <bprill> I don't think I have ever not scooped to my opponent after agreeing on a prize split
[22:25] <bprill> It's not worth the conversation to decide otherwise
[22:25] <minusX> Well last night it was "Hey someone has to win" "Uhhhh" between both players
[22:26] <bprill> Then you say "play it out for the points, or one of you can drop"
[22:26] <bprill> Or concede
[22:26] <JoeH> I've just had players decide.  It'll happen eventually.
[22:26] <bprill> It whatever I don't care
[22:26] <amullins> Would it invalidate the event if you just double drop them?
[22:26] <minusX> But the issue is they wanted to randomly decide who dropped
[22:27] * bearz is now known as bearz|afk
[22:27] <bprill> Whelp...
[22:27] <bprill> I guess they decided both
[22:27] <bprill> Here's some paperwork
[22:30] <minusX> So should the store just decide if there's the risk of them rolling?
[22:32] * bprill (~bprill@c.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) Quit (Later, nerds!)
[22:33] <JoeH> There should just be an announcement beforehand.
[22:34] <JoeH> Probably another one before they sit down for the finals, too.
[22:24] <minusX> So that another draft can fire
[22:24] <bearz> You can double-drop them from the finals
[22:24] <amullins> One of them can choose to drop. If they care about planeswalker points then they can still play for that
[22:24] <bearz> Or, seriously, most people just freaking draw in this situation
[22:24] <bearz> It's +EV for them both
[22:24] <amullins> You can't draw in a single elimination event
[22:24] <minusX> ^
[22:24] <minusX> WER says "We need another round DDDDDDDDD:"
[22:25] <bearz> WER sucks.
[22:25] <JoeH> ^
[22:25] <bearz> Anyway, sorry, I probably talked myself in a circle with that part
[22:25] <bprill> I don't think I have ever not scooped to my opponent after agreeing on a prize split
[22:25] <bprill> It's not worth the conversation to decide otherwise
[22:25] <minusX> Well last night it was "Hey someone has to win" "Uhhhh" between both players
[22:26] <bprill> Then you say "play it out for the points, or one of you can drop"
[22:26] <bprill> Or concede
[22:26] <JoeH> I've just had players decide.  It'll happen eventually.
[22:26] <bprill> It whatever I don't care
[22:26] <amullins> Would it invalidate the event if you just double drop them?
[22:26] <minusX> But the issue is they wanted to randomly decide who dropped
[22:27] * bearz is now known as bearz|afk
[22:27] <bprill> Whelp...
[22:27] <bprill> I guess they decided both
[22:27] <bprill> Here's some paperwork
[22:30] <minusX> So should the store just decide if there's the risk of them rolling?
[22:32] * bprill (~bprill@c.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) Quit (Later, nerds!)
[22:33] <JoeH> There should just be an announcement beforehand.
[22:34] <JoeH> Probably another one before they sit down for the finals, too.
[22:34] <amullins> Well they probably won't even sit down for the finals
[22:34] <minusX> ya
[22:35] <JoeH> It might take a bit for the community to catch on, but they'll soon learn that randomly doing it is not the way it can be done.
[22:35] <JoeH> Presumably they report to someone.  Have that person tell them individually when they're heading into the finals?
[22:35] <minusX> It's kinda small, so I can get them to do it right pretty easily I think
[22:36] <minusX> But it's been a thing at all regular REL events I think :\
[22:36] <JoeH> If you talk to the TO about it and let them know how much of a problem it is, the TO can help try to change the environment.
[22:46] * bprill (~bprill@c-.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) has joined #
[22:46] <minusX> Thanks a lot guys, and bprill when he wasn't phasing