<Quix|Work> http://abload.de/img/progressionj5kgb.png
<Quix|Work> http://abload.de/img/dialogue87k4y.png
<Chalkdust> >that many rpgs
<Yae> so, uh
<Yae> this is a study based on comments from gaf
<Yae> based on analysis of games that have not been released
<Chalkdust> some of which are probably kickstarters
<Quix|Work> it's not based on comments from GAF
<Quix|Work> it's based on Durante looking into all of them
<Yae> looking into things that do not yet exist
<Quix|Work> well, i think he can write down whether the game is first or third party
<Quix|Work> or whether there are dialogue checks or not
<Quix|Work> unless you think the devs are all liars
<Yae> also, gaf commenter looking into something and posting it on gaf is by definition based on a comment from gaf
<Quix|Work> *first or third person
<Quix|Work> or you think the OP is a liar
<Yae> I think that it's silly to try to evaluate unfinished product with basically just PR for information
<Quix|Work> he's not trying to evaluate anything
<Yae> especially considering things often change
<Quix|Work> he's just saying what category of rpg they all are
<Yae> he's quantifying games according to category!
<Quix|Work> i dunno, this feels similar to being outraged that saying the 2015 hyundai elantra will be a korean sedan
<Yae> well, OK
<Yae> let's go back to your time as a wee lad
<Yae> before it was released, how would you have classified FFVI?
<Yae> on the open/linear progression spectrum
<Quix|Work> i don't know, at the most i would've read some nintendo power preview blurb
<Yae> right, and you would have had no occasion to know that half the game is more akin to morrowind than to FFIV
<Yae> my point is not outrage, but that the exercise is exceedingly silly
<Quix|Work> wat
<Chalkdust> its okay the devs said their game is totally open, bro
<Chalkdust> they wouldnt steer you wrong
<Yae> they don't even need to be misleading anyone!
<Quix|Work> ffvi is linear, it's just that the party breaks up into three groups
<Yae> no?
<Quix|Work> you still can't deviate from the plot
<Yae> there's an entire 'get the band back together' aspect to it
<Yae> almost all of which is optional
<Yae> with I think 5 optional non-party-related dungeons
<Quix|Work> i'm pretty sure almost every rpg ever has optional content
<Yae> from a central-plot perspective, it is Celes doing some white-water rafting, engaging in the world's dumbest conversation with Edgar, grabbing some dudes and running at the tower
<Yae> of a cast of 14, only 3 characters, Celes, Edgar and Setzer, are required to progress the plot
<Yae> everyone else has a two-part side story in the WoR
<Yae> most have some dungeon involved
<Chalkdust> 14 characters? jeebus
<Yae> the amount of central plot stuff in WoR is a few minutes, whereas on a time basis, the optional and non-linear stuff takes up roughly half the game's playtime
<Quix|Work> what characters you choose to reintroduce is optional, but you're still being railroaded into one ending
<Quix|Work> there's no branching story
<Quix|Work> the only difference your party composition makes is one small scene each in the epilogue, right?
<Quix|Work> SA OT is trying to hype me for EDF 2025
<Yae> in that case, almost all RPGs are linear
<Yae> since the formula is always a central plot with modular bits for extra characters or some minor choice or culmination of choices
<Quix|Work> there are games where your choices actually influence the plot
<Quix|Work> in ffvi it just decides which characters end up in your party
<Yae> those games are few and far between, and usually the plot itself is unchanged, just with different presentation and interpersonal dressing
<Quix|Work> well, if you want to say that any game where you can make any choice at all is not linear, then fine
<Yae> which is a more robust version of what FFVI did
<Quix|Work> i think Durante's categories make sense
<Yae> they're probably fine, my point is that you're not going to be able to accurately classify anything unless you play the game and actually map out the narrative and progression structure
<Yae> even with bioware games, there is a huge difference between the KOTOR and JE charts
<Yae> for example
<Quix|Work> the "bioware" was a joke
<Quix|Work> he was just mocking them by making bioware its own category
<Yae> that's rather silly, bioware uses a genuine hybrid system for construction and flow
<Quix|Work> really, the only part that's subjective at all is whether the game is linear or open
<Quix|Work> and you're focusing on that one
<Quix|Work> the dev can say whether there are dialogue trees, dialogue trees and checks, or nothing
<Yae> no, I'm actually focusing on the fact that he doesn't have any actual information
<Quix|Work> or any of those other classifications
<Quix|Work> these are games being released this year
<Yae> to then slot into rather subjective classifications
<Quix|Work> they aren't kickstarter fantasies for 2017
<Yae> yes, being released being the operative phrase, not been released
<Quix|Work> i'm going back to elantra 2015 for that
<Quix|Work> a game isn't going to transform from a arpg to a first-person blobber at this point
<Quix|Work> *an
<Yae> yes, going back to my point about FFVI, is that we don't know the actual composition of the actual game
<Yae> the end result in that case was half-extremely linear and half-very open
<Yae> which aside from any categorization issues, is just a lack of information
<Quix|Work> i'm not even impressed by your ffvi example
<Quix|Work> but we have way more information on most of these games
<Quix|Work> than we did on ffvi