The following is a conversation I had with D2M after being banned for 1000days from etf2l for posting chat logs with him regarding sektor gaming aka 21grams and the admins decissions to not allow us promotion to div2 in season 7 even though the team placed 2nd in there division.


Session Start: Sat Feb 20 23:21:38 2010
Session Ident: D2M
[23:21] Session Ident: D2M (QuakeNet, WildCard) ([email protected])
[23:21] <D2M> adam are you there?
01[23:21] <WildCard> I am
[23:22] <D2M> got a few minutes?
01[23:22] <WildCard> all depends on what is going to be discussed
[23:22] <D2M> your conduct and whatever ill feelings you are harbouring towards me
01[23:23] <WildCard> you ban me from the forums for 3 years for posting a chat log :)
[23:23] <D2M> but firstly, i'd like to make it very clear that this is a private conversation between you and i, and not something for publication in public
01[23:24] <WildCard> great, doesnt alter the fact you ban my account for 3 years for posting a chat log with you in full un edited if you have or had such a problem with the details of that chat perhaps you shouldnt of said it in the first place because from my point of view, im totally unstaisifed with the outcome, you made it perfectly clear you wasnt going to change your mind and so bringing it to the attention of the
01[23:25] <WildCard> community was the only course of action left, removing it banning me without saying a single word only imo validates my arguments
[23:25] <D2M> you managed to edit your chatlogs very nicely to present me in a bad light
01[23:25] <WildCard> no i did not
01[23:25] <WildCard> i posted every chat i had with you
01[23:25] <WildCard> everyline
[23:25] <D2M> you did, because the rest of the conversation with skatcher is missing :)
01[23:25] <WildCard> check your own logs
01[23:26] <WildCard> well i didnt read that
[23:26] <D2M> where we agreed to put you top of the div2 waiting list, and where you would've got a div2 spot last tuesday
01[23:26] <WildCard> i put up what i had seen
[23:26] <D2M> had you guys not emo'd and folded
01[23:26] <WildCard> so from my point of view every thing in that chat log is everything im aware of
[23:26] <D2M> skatcher was happy with that outcome
01[23:27] <WildCard> we had not emo and folded we had 5 member  on our roster upuntil i left about 1 week ago after rockit had folded knowing a team would be moved up to div2 and not recieving any word from any admin regarding it for 1 week after rockit had folded
[23:27] <D2M> the contents of private discussions between myself and you or your teammates, are exactly that - private. i understood the frustration that your team showed and i was happy to talk with skatcher about it because he was actually polite to me
[23:27] <D2M> i have absolutely zero bad feelings towards you
[23:27] <D2M> away from the issue with 21grams/etf2l you seem like a pleasant chap and you have done good work for the community
[23:27] <D2M> i respect that
01[23:28] <WildCard> i was not rude, i was abrupt i will admit doesnt alter the fact though that the contents that i posted from my point of view are all I have to go on and knowing from previous examples of people who have posted logs none have ever been banned for 3 years :)
[23:29] <D2M> the ban is irrelevant as it will be removed once we have had a chat and sorted out whatever bad feelings there are present here
01[23:29] <WildCard> and we both will not change our opinions I think its a joke that decissions are made by etf2l admins that in my honest opinion have noidea what there doing, i know neitehr byte nor baerbel ahd any input into the decission of 7brother being mvoed up to div1 and since you only have 3 admins who play at div2 or above getting those two players opinions would be where i would start :)
[23:30] <D2M> it was done simply because 1) the logs are private discussions, not for publication. 2) i felt that parts were left out and it was not a fair representation of the discussions between myself and your team. 3) it had zero relevance to the thread about idk frog
[23:31] <D2M> therefore it was easier to actually do that and talk to you about it in a gentlemanly fashion, rather than have you using ill feelings towards myself to incite unnecessary flaming
01[23:31] <WildCard> sure all the admisn do do good work in ther erespective field but asking opinions of people who ahve not played with or against teams is just silly, sure you know regardless of if you will admit it or not that keeping 7brothers in div2 was a mistake and it could of been rectified sooner
[23:31] <D2M> i think i answered with enough clarity on page 6 of that thread to avoid repeating myself again on the topic
[23:32] <D2M> my discussion with you here is simply regarding your feelings towards me and attempting to find out how we can fix them
01[23:32] <WildCard> banning me instantly is not going to make me any happier and simply want to cause me to use my positions in pickup channels and other forums to spread that info though, again simply editing the post and saying dont paste logs of admins without there agreement imo would of been much easier :) it would also of got my frustration out by knowing other people are aware how pissed i am/was and not let
01[23:32] <WildCard> etf2l lose face so to speak but what is done is done :)
01[23:34] <WildCard> i dont dislike or hate you or any etf2l admin, I despise though not having my view heard in a reasonable way with explinations given regarding my questions, we both know you avoided certain questions regarding why sektor wasnt moved up, im also pretty sure you took advice of people you rearly shouldnt of but again irrelivant now as its done and wotn be changed.
[23:35] <D2M> i did not intentionally try to 'avoid' any questions mate. being raged at @ 4am is a little tough to deal with mentally, when you've been up for many hours sorting out league stuff
[23:35] <D2M> i apologise if you feel i did that
[23:35] <D2M> as it was never and would never be my intention
[23:36] <D2M> as an admin team, there have been a number of inadequacies
[23:36] <D2M> hence why half of them have been kicked
[23:36] <D2M> for being utter shit and doing nothing
[23:36] <D2M> we have less than 40% of admins doing 99% of the work
01[23:37] <WildCard> I can understand that, but it comes with the territory :) was 4 am for me waiting for 2 months for the decission, the choices you made overall were fine but when you make a bad one which does happen it effects those players far more than it does you, so we are bound to be very frustrated, regardless of all other good work that has been done, if it effects me or my team badly im going to be very unhappy :)
[23:37] <D2M> yeah i understand
01[23:37] <WildCard> and that is where most of the problems arise the decissions your team makes are not based on peoples opinions who actually know what they are talking about
01[23:38] <WildCard>  you cant expect div 4/5/6 players who are admins to make an informed choice of who should be moved up to a divisions if they dont play in it or even with the players
01[23:38] <WildCard> but as you say you do the best you can with what you have avalaible
[23:38] <D2M> hence why i've been trying to clear out the crap and get in people that are suitable and do work
[23:38] <D2M> the two admins you mentioned above, whilst being great players do not do a lot for the league
[23:38] <D2M> but i persuaded kop to keep them on because of their knowledge
[23:38] <D2M> that's confidential, so please keep that to yourself
01[23:39] <WildCard> but if it isnt good enough something needs to change and has been mentioned before, and with my talks with other players who were in a similiar situation, if in future a situation arises like it did with frog and brothers and you dont have a team capable of making a proper informed choice then it should be made by the teams within the league itself
01[23:39] <WildCard> if you had asked all div1 teams from last season who should be moved up
01[23:39] <WildCard> 90% would of said 7brothers would be my guess
[23:39] <D2M> quite possibly
01[23:39] <WildCard> or at least arranged earlier for a play off game
01[23:40] <WildCard> and i know as i speak to them alot both being mpuk admins and know there like dunc (no offence in reagards to responses to admin querys:P) lasy as fuck quite alot of time :)
[23:40] <D2M> lol
[23:40] <D2M> imo the 4 teams are pretty evenly matched, as publicly stated
[23:40] <D2M> 7 brothers have the bigger 'name' as it were, so more people favour them
01[23:40] <WildCard>  which is why im also well aware and was very annoyed with the decissions made because i know who was making them and also know how they are not informed enough them selves to make the decissions
[23:40] <D2M> idk frog are the most in-form side
[23:41] <D2M> notag are completely not living up to their potential
[23:41] <D2M> etc
01[23:41] <WildCard> regardless of even everything else, if it was beleived that nofrog were capable of playing div1 they should of been given the chance initially in a playioff spot when www played 7brtohers
[23:41] <D2M> i think it's unfair to suggest that certain players in the lower divisions have no ability to make a decision
01[23:41] <WildCard> but they wasnt so the logical choice the community thinks would be to promote the loser of the playoff
01[23:41] <WildCard> well they never play with them
[23:42] <D2M> whilst some of them are thick as shit, and i would agree :p
01[23:42] <WildCard> i never see hardly any of the admins playign pickups except a select few so apart from seeing some games or looking at a few results they have no way to judge players individual skill
01[23:42] <WildCard> which inturn would mean new teams which are formed would not be given the appropriate rating
01[23:43] <WildCard> teams like monstermunch as i mentioned in are previous convo would of bet my house they would fold
[23:43] <D2M> yeah
01[23:43] <WildCard> because i know the players and the team and how unstable it is
[23:43] <D2M> i agree with that
01[23:43] <WildCard> i know 50% of there lineup is inactive as they dont even play pickups or pcw
01[23:43] <WildCard> etc
[23:43] <D2M> we all thought it, but since they had a spot and tsu wanted to continue - they had a crack at it
[23:43] <D2M> it was their right to have a go
01[23:43] <WildCard> and most admins would not be aware of this and there decissions ill informed
[23:43] <D2M> there was no decision regarding rawr though, they chose to play when asked what was happening
01[23:43] <WildCard> which is fine
[23:44] <D2M> rockit were doomed as well, and it was only a matter of time before rage/someone spurging made them fold
01[23:44] <WildCard> but then it leads me back to  why was sektor not given the same chance, my biggest gripe is the fact noone contacted us, because as you said before you spoke to monster munch to see if they would continue, but sektor was given no such communication so by the time we was told div3, anything from our point of view to rectify it would be to late
01[23:45] <WildCard> so a simple message " hi whats happening with your team" instead of listening to people like jimmis rage because he cant get the spot and thinks the few new players we bring in would be crap :)
[23:45] <D2M> monster much were spoken to on the night that the provisionals were released as far as i remember
[23:45] <D2M> i don't think we spoke to them before that
01[23:45] <WildCard> or because of what he had said to other people to influence there decision would be my guess :)
[23:46] <D2M> if we had more admins i'm sure we would've been a lot better organised
[23:46] <D2M> it's only when you take over and see the lack of ability/help that some people provide that you realise how much of a challenge you have
[23:46] <D2M> in organising the league there were 3-4 out of 10+ admins actively doing stuff
[23:46] <D2M> so i apologise unreservedly for that
[23:47] <D2M> i'm trying to fix the problems that inactivity/people not being useful has caused
01[23:47] <WildCard> yep which is understandable a pain, and so why admins didnt approach respected well known and informed players to give there opinion makes no sense to me, better that the struggle on and hope it works out.
[23:47] <D2M> afaik, jimmy was liasing a lot with div1-2 players
[23:48] <D2M> he certainly provided a lot of input from speaking with them
01[23:49] <WildCard> anyway, i have no intention of waging a war against etf2l to make it look bad, my single and sole concern is always for my team, and friends who i feel have been unfailry punished from admins and there decissions, so as you said above this convo wont go any futher, I admit I could of been more polite and so do you we was both tired and annoyed :)
[23:49] <D2M> yeah i understand, i was hoping we had fixed it and sorted you guys a place in div2 with the top of the waiting list thing
[23:49] <D2M> i'm sorry it didn't work out so well
01[23:49] <WildCard> but doesnt alter the fact ive had many many bad expereinces with etf2l they have had to make 2 different rule changes to rectify problems which have effected my team for two seperate seasons and so when this occured I was understandable annoyed :)
[23:51] <D2M> i apologise for banning you, it wasn't something that was permanent it was me reacting badly to seeing my name trying to be dragged through mud again
01[23:51] <WildCard> but what is done is done, I apologise for the second forum post, which was against rules, first one i still standby as from my point of view its all i new and i had little recouse to do anything else :D, so as you say best thing to do is put it behind us and move on and hope etf2l recruits some active well informed admins :)
[23:51] <D2M> i'm trying really hard to help the league out
[23:51] <D2M> kop is fucking useless
01[23:51] <WildCard> only good admins are active admins :)
[23:51] <D2M> i had to beg him to add racio so i at least had someone to bounce ideas off
01[23:51] <WildCard> and most admins like the position and the titles :)
[23:52] <D2M> i'll be honest with you too, right now i'm considering leaving the admin team
[23:52] <D2M> i'm fed up of the abuse
[23:52] <D2M> if people want to force out admins that care and really want to change the league - they've gone the perfect way about it
[23:52] <D2M> the inactive admins are a massive waste of space
01[23:53] <WildCard> regardless of how i feel about your decissions made, they were not solely your choice so you cant take all the blame of course, but you can expect to recieve all the complaints from the community since you are the face of etf2l and any decission made has to be bounced of you, so if its wrong regardless of whos idea it was will make you look bad :). But you leaving the admin team would not do etf2l
[23:53] <D2M> well there's 3 head admins
01[23:53] <WildCard> any favours as like you say they have no current active admins willing to put the time in etc to run it
[23:53] <D2M> i'm just more vocal because i hated the way daykiller was silent about everything
01[23:53] <WildCard> your the most active
[23:53] <D2M> just locking and deleting
01[23:54] <WildCard> you make most of the posts etc and you are seen on the forums alot :)
01[23:54] <WildCard> so hence you are the face of etf2l like it or not :)
[23:54] <D2M> if they lose me, they're gonna be fucked :( but i'm rapidly losing motivation
[23:54] <D2M> i guess so :p
[23:55] <D2M> i deleted the forum ban too btw
01[23:56] <WildCard> but im quite willing to apply as admin i would of applied before but had no intention of working with some admins who have left since, so if you do need help im active, well informed and have the time, working from homw means im at my pc or near to it most of the day :) but im also aware that im disliked by alot of people mainly because if rules are in place i will obide by them (usually) and enforce
01[23:57] <WildCard> them to the fullest makes some pople get pissed when you ban them in pickup channels :)
[23:57] <D2M> can you send me a full application?
[23:57] <D2M> i like that you have balls and stand up for yourself
[23:57] <D2M> something i respect
01[23:57] <WildCard> i unbaned you to from the pickups btw :)
[23:57] <D2M> yeeeees
01[23:57] <WildCard> not that you play there much :(
01[23:57] <WildCard> so was a rarther worthless gesture :)
[23:57] <D2M> well i wasn't allowed in as i was in div4 etf2l last season
[23:58] <D2M> with my hilariously bad team of friends
01[23:58] <WildCard> you only ever played 2 games inpug2
01[23:58] <WildCard> and 2 in pug1
[23:58] <D2M> 3!
01[23:58] <WildCard> was another reason :)
[23:58] <D2M> i was in 3 :[
01[23:58] <WildCard> oh :)
[23:58] <D2M> lol
[23:58] <D2M> i'd like to play more pickups tho
[23:58] <D2M> all i do is matches with vertex against div2 sides and mixes with utter shitters
01[23:59] <WildCard> you would be allowed to play as med in pug2 but thats the only way to get in currently since wasnt in div3 last season
[23:59] <D2M> yeah, i have to wait 30 days or something
01[23:59] <WildCard> and this seasons standings dont count
[23:59] <D2M> i think?
Session Time: Sun Feb 21 00:00:00 2010
01[00:00] <WildCard> thats just somthign i tell people to stop asking me :), there is not rearly a waiting list season 7 standings wont be counted this season as far as im aware
[00:00] <D2M> oh right
01[00:00] <WildCard> #
[00:00] <D2M> :[
01[00:01] <WildCard> having 1000 of people in pug 1 alot of which want to play pug2  and dont have the ability to read a forum have the annoying habit of pming the most active admins in the channel :)
01[00:01] <WildCard> anyway ill email a application to you this evening and will take it from there, thanks for the chat and being honest about everything its appreciated :)
[00:02] <D2M> yeah that's fair enough mate, if i was allowed to sneak into pu2 sometime it would be nice to actually play with decent people
[00:02] <D2M> but i understand rules are rules
01[00:02] <WildCard> and as you said above this wont be discussed with anyone else, one thing i am good at is keeping my word on such thigns when asked to ;)
[00:02] <D2M> thanks for the chat, i appreciate your honesty in return :)