TruePlayer Round Table #2

14:59 ABC_TABLE: ok. I'm ready
15:00 DrRhoop: ALLRIGHTY
15:00 TheDukeDevlin: MY BODY IS READY
15:00 mandeer is now known as tabledeer
15:00 ABC_TABLE: Ride it
15:00 DrRhoop: WELCOME TO THE GOD DAMN TRUEPLAYER ROUNDTABLE
15:00 TheDukeDevlin is now known as TableDuke
15:00 DrRhoop is now known as DRTABLE
15:00 DRTABLE: ahem
15:00 DRTABLE: so
15:00 DRTABLE: anyone wanna go first?
15:00 DRTABLE: or shall I just wing it again?
15:00 TableDuke: Wing it baby, wing it
15:00 DRTABLE: I'll go
15:01 DRTABLE: aight
15:01 DRTABLE: one thing that really stuck out this time, was how you can use yourself as an anchor
15:01 DRTABLE: and how this ties in with congruency, and why it makes it doubly important and powerful
15:02 TableDuke: Where does it talk about that?
15:02 tabledeer: that's sort of like when you say there's good, and motion away from you, "and bad" and motion in front of you?
15:02 DRTABLE: because when you can show the emotions that you are trying to elicit, and mean them, when you achieve rapport they are going to draw to it
15:02 DRTABLE: yeah
15:02 DRTABLE: it talks about it around there
15:02 DRTABLE: lemme see if I can find the exact page
15:03 tabledeer: it doesn't go into it extensively.  one thing i've been noticing is it's really broad topically
15:03 tabledeer: like, he brings up nominalizations at the beginning of the chapter
15:04 tabledeer: here is the link to my notes: http://www.reddit.com/r/trueplayer/comments/wlulg/round_table_2_persuasion_engineering_22july2012/c5hnb2v
15:04 ABC_TABLE: I'm hoping that it's because this is the "basics" chapter.
15:04 tabledeer: page 25, para3
15:04 DRTABLE: page 40
15:04 tabledeer: but i've been trying to shift my speech away from speaking in nominalizations
15:04 TableDuke: When it comes to nominalizations, an idea that comes to mind is you want to turn a process into a nominalization when you want the choice to be "sealed?"
15:05 TableDuke: "Great, now that you've made your decision, we can...."
15:05 tabledeer: i suppose that's true, it's not all about eliminating nominalizations
15:05 DRTABLE: "now this is my basic sales program: induce good feeling and attach it to yourself. also induce it and attach it to yourself, because you are a part of
15:05 DRTABLE: this, especially if it is a service, because you, like me want the best
15:05 DRTABLE: for yourself. You, like me want the best for yourself. Now this is
15:05 DRTABLE: a language pattern and we are going to get into those. They're
15:05 DRTABLE: fun.
15:05 tabledeer: but recognizing their effect
15:06 aypez: TableDuke: "now that you've made your decision" is also pacing, right?
15:06 TableDuke: Unfreezing nominalizations is vital to therapy and belief change, (as we'll discuss when we read the Sleight of Mouth Structure of MAgic etc)
15:06 TableDuke: aypez: it can be !
15:06 TableDuke: Good eye, I didn't even think of that
15:06 tabledeer: yeah, i was introduced to nominalizations in a very dry therapeutic fashion, because i hit up Structure I before i started with SoM
15:06 warm_gun_mama has joined ([email protected])
15:07 DRTABLE: right, so the trick is to frame the nominalisations how you want them to go
15:07 tabledeer: right, and i suppose if someone talks about a 'decision' you don't like
15:07 tabledeer: denominalizing it is a good move, but if they're wavering
15:08 tabledeer: well i don't know, because it also ties into what he says about how you want all decisions made with you to be good decisions
15:08 tabledeer: you don't want to cause a hasty decision that they'll regret
15:09 DRTABLE: yeah
15:09 tabledeer: p52.2 "Everybody makes good decisions and bad decisions and from our point of view it doesn't matter which is made when they make decisions somewhere else. But when they make decisions with us, we want them to be good ones. "
15:09 TableDuke: You want to make sure not to fuck them just because you want to increase your numbers
15:10 DRTABLE: you want to leave them feeling like it was a good idea to sleep with you, one they benefitted from
15:10 tabledeer: well, and even if you KNOW that you're both awesome and you'll get along well, if they have something going on that makes them uneasy, you want to address it somehow, instead of just sealing the deal
15:10 tabledeer: and hoping for the best
15:10 TableDuke: Or sell 'em shit they don't need, you want to make sure the decisions you seal are the good ones, like he says
15:10 tabledeer: you don't get an opportunity to address reservations after the fact, really
15:10 tabledeer: they become complaints
15:10 legendd has joined (6ccaa26f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.202.162.111)
15:10 TableDuke: LEGENDARY TABLE.
15:11 tabledeer: i liked the passage at the bottom of 49, where he talks about leading people to be ready to sign, and then he backs off
15:11 tabledeer: it's very relevant to pickup
15:11 tabledeer: and just general lady skills
15:11 TableDuke: Would you mind if I suggest we look at Page 27? There are some interesting things on that page
15:11 tabledeer: And I breath with them and then I'll mirror them and start nodding my head yes, before I ask them questions. Because that way their head is already nodding yes. And I go, "Do you feel it's time to sign this contract?" and they'll go, "Yeah, I guess I do." And I'll go, "Well not me, I'm not ready yet."
15:12 tabledeer: ok
15:12 tabledeer: shoot
15:12 DRTABLE: checks out p.27
15:12 TableDuke: First of all, I like that he's using good old fashioned flattery, "Wow, Bill. Great suit. Italian Silk, isn't it?"
15:12 ABC_TABLE: Based on great observations, though.
15:13 DRTABLE: yeah, I was gonna mention that
15:13 TableDuke: Exactly, so it actually feels genuine and not some b.s.
15:13 ABC_TABLE: He noticed what the guy wanted to be notcticed for
15:13 DRTABLE: the fact that you can mirror and pace to that extent
15:13 TableDuke: But what's really interesting is what he does with the prime decision maker
15:13 kthsn: sincere appreciation is better than flattery
15:13 DRTABLE: TableDuke:  what do you get out of it?
15:13 ABC_TABLE: He matched that guy, but didn't "perform" for him
15:13 DRTABLE: in his game with the decision maker?
15:14 TableDuke: See, a common persuasion tactic is to use "authority,"   "They say,"  "Obama says,"  "The newspaper said,"  "This book I was reading by this scientist says,"
15:14 TableDuke: In a way he's "becoming" the authority figure by taking on the prime decision makers characteristics, the tone, inflections, and so on
15:14 TableDuke: and because "like attracts like," it also builds rapport with the "tough" decision maker
15:14 DRTABLE: ahhhh
15:15 tabledeer: also, he had someone who was watching his behavior very closely, so instead of doing something overt, he just acted as much like the guy as possible
15:15 tabledeer: it's like saying "i can't be hypnotized"
15:16 DRTABLE: BONUS: he gets to access all of the rest of the groups anchors with the boss for free
15:16 ABC_TABLE: The guy was resisting him in his physical movements, so he mirrored his verbal style...
15:16 ABC_TABLE: good point DRTABLE
15:17 TableDuke: Exactly, DRTABLE, and that means the guys in the group will be responding to Bandler just like they would their regular boss
15:18 DRTABLE: the thought occurs that he could direct the way the rest of it was going, and then if the "tough" guy starts going into rapport with ANY of the rest of the group, then he has basically assumed non-dominant posture
15:18 DRTABLE: because he has reacted as one of the underlings
15:18 DRTABLE: and bandler catches him the other way, anyways
15:18 kthsn: he was using the same principle that we use when we copy someone's "alpha" body language
15:18 DRTABLE: which is ultimately what happened, from what it says
15:18 ABC_TABLE: Can you help me understand why this worked to persuade the boss guy, too?
15:19 ABC_TABLE: Is it more than just mirroring?
15:19 kthsn: ABC_TABLE: mirroring body language makes us feel at ease, builds rapport
15:19 DRTABLE: bandler assumed boss guys social position, and influenced the group that way
15:19 TableDuke: ABC_TABLE: It's because we tend to respond well to people we view as similar to us, even if the similarity is somewhat arbitrary (like when you see two people hitting it off because they went to the same school)
15:20 TableDuke: It's easier to take advice from someone who has been in the same situation as us, or is in the same situation
15:20 ABC_TABLE: So, Bandler is seen as being on the same team as the boss?
15:20 kthsn: as long as the body language isnt hostile, mirroring can create a bond with the other person
15:20 DRTABLE: "you are OK, we are the SAME!"
15:20 TableDuke: ABC_TABLE: Exactly!
15:20 ABC_TABLE: thanks
15:20 tabledeer: i think DRTABLE makes a good point that in addition to verbal mirroring, by assuming the boss's verbal style, any attempt by the underlings to match the boss's verbal style feeds into what bandler's doing
15:20 TableDuke: Just keep in mind, gentelmen, that mirroring can extend beyond body language. ;)
15:21 tabledeer: and since bandler has the floor in the example, when the boss speaks, he would appear to be mirroring bandler
15:21 tabledeer: so it's sort of locking everyone into a situation where they're pre-conditioned to mirror bandler's behavior and defer to it
15:21 tabledeer: imho
15:21 ABC_TABLE: Interesting to think in terms of the universe of pickup...
15:22 DRTABLE: yup
15:22 ABC_TABLE: mirroring the "target"
15:22 DRTABLE: AMOG 4eva
15:22 DRTABLE: if you want, that is
15:22 ABC_TABLE: but mirroring to the target's social circle…
15:22 DRTABLE: mirroring the target is probably the way to go in large groups
15:22 ABC_TABLE: I mean, mirroring the target when talking to the target's friends
15:22 tabledeer: i would mirror the "highest value" individual
15:22 TableDuke: I mirror the girl I'm talking to a lot, unless her body language is particularly closed (I don't like closing my body language),  and I mix it up so I'm not obviously copying her
15:22 ABC_TABLE: results in gaining rapport with the target
15:23 tabledeer: if the group is large and you're suspect
15:23 tabledeer: but i dunno
15:23 tabledeer: this is outside my area of expertise
15:23 ABC_TABLE: I guess it really applies if the target is the highest value in the group
15:23 kthsn: if the group is large wouldn't mirroring the most high value male be more effective?
15:23 tabledeer: that was my thought
15:23 ABC_TABLE: I think so kthsn
15:23 TableDuke: Keep in mind, it's possible and likely you will be the "highest value" man in the group
15:24 kthsn: but thats only if the group has a pre established "alpha"
15:24 kthsn: like in the example bandler used
15:25 tabledeer: probably in an ideal social situation, you would use mirroring with everyone
15:25 DRTABLE: TableDuke: why is it likely?
15:25 TableDuke: Like, if you approach a group of people that are just sitting down and there isn't a rigid social structure, you can set the pace yourself
15:25 tabledeer: which i think is natural behavior if you're with friends
15:25 DRTABLE: ah, true
15:26 TableDuke: DRTABLE: It seems to me that I often find myself becoming "the man" in the group anyway, I don't know why lol
15:26 DRTABLE: PACE PACE
15:26 tabledeer: it's because you use the cube
15:26 ABC_TABLE: Is there also some social advantage to being novel?
15:26 DRTABLE: LEAD LEAD LEAD LEAD
15:26 DRTABLE: ....
15:26 ABC_TABLE: as in different
15:26 TableDuke: Yes
15:26 TableDuke: DRTABLE: I'm glad you bring that up, the next page has him talking about how people tend to "pace" too mcuh and forget to lead
15:27 DRTABLE: you can see this sometimes with some social groups
15:27 DRTABLE: where people dont know how to lead
15:27 DRTABLE: so they end up doing nothing much
15:28 TableDuke: I used to have that problem in my sarges
15:28 TableDuke: Approach, good. Get rapport, good.  WHAT DO NOW? lol
15:28 DRTABLE: but such groups you can clean up on
15:28 DRTABLE: pretty much be instant-alpha, with a bit of rapport building
15:29 TableDuke: What do you guys think about the next part, where he talks about the Representational Systems?
15:29 TableDuke: V/A/K
15:29 tabledeer: page?
15:30 TableDuke: 29
15:30 ABC_TABLE: V/A/K?
15:30 TableDuke: I find stuff like this very helpful, but because it's so simple it's sometimes easy to lose track of
15:30 TableDuke: Visual Audio Kiensethetic
15:30 DRTABLE: thats one bit that I thought wasnt explained very well in depth. He showed it to an extent, but there wasnt enough coverage conceptually
15:30 tabledeer: it's interesting, because i don't relate to show visually
15:30 tabledeer: since i thought about it when i was younger, and i couldn't figure out how to say i was going to show someone some music
15:30 tabledeer: without using the word show
15:31 TableDuke: I'm gonna introduce you to some music :D
15:31 DRTABLE: play you some music
15:31 ABC_TABLE: play = k
15:31 ABC_TABLE: ?
15:31 tabledeer: i think it also has to do with the spanish/english thing
15:32 TableDuke: It may very well be Kinesthetic, I never thought of that before, ABC_TABLE :O
15:32 tabledeer: in spanish, for playing recorded music, they say "reproduce"
15:32 tabledeer: for playing an instrument
15:32 tabledeer: they say "touch", which is the same word as "knock
15:32 tabledeer: "
15:32 ABC_TABLE: I'm going to reproduce you some music, baby.
15:33 DRTABLE: I'm going to reproduce WITH YOU some music, baby
15:33 tabledeer: but i definitely have known people who look at audio gear and they're definitely LOOKING at it
15:34 ABC_TABLE: That's true of lots of products
15:34 ABC_TABLE: visible technology
15:34 tabledeer: i haven't attuned myself to the modalities in every day speech
15:34 tabledeer: yet
15:34 tabledeer: so it's hard to relate any real world experience to that passage.  what were your thoughts, TableDuke?
15:35 TableDuke: I use it all the time, really.  It's a simple thing, which means its kinda easy to forget, but also easy to do without noticing. Do you see what I mean? ;)
15:35 DRTABLE: I try and use it all the time
15:36 tabledeer: I HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR
15:36 tabledeer: :P
15:36 DRTABLE: I have used it before many times
15:36 DRTABLE: its just hard to remember every time
15:36 TableDuke: It's really interesting when you find someone who "naturally" matches your output systems, too
15:36 DRTABLE: I find it easiest if you can coaz them to monlogu for a minute about something they like
15:36 DRTABLE: *coax
15:37 tabledeer: i haven't been interacting with people very much lately, especially not comfortably, so i will think of it while i'm talking to them, and forget almost immediately
15:37 DRTABLE: I gotta peace, guys :|
15:37 DRTABLE: picking up my sister from the airport ^_^
15:37 TableDuke: I watch the eyes, myself, so sometimes I do it and not think about it because in my brain it hapepns veyr rapid fire, "Oh she's hearing words in my mind, so I'll use language thats LOUD AND CLEAR"
15:37 tabledeer: later DRTABLE.  have fun
15:37 TableDuke: Take aare DRTABLE
15:38 tabledeer: did any of you guys do the exercises?
15:38 ABC_TABLE: Which exercises?
15:38 tabledeer: p31: For example, think about something that you believe without a doubt. Like, do believe that's it's important to breathe? Now where did your eyes move to in order to retrieve the information?
15:39 TableDuke: I do this a lot, actually
15:39 ABC_TABLE: yeah.
15:39 ABC_TABLE: Those are hard for me to do naturally
15:39 tabledeer: And now where is the information? In front of you and down right or higher, for example? Ask this question of oth- ers and notice what you get as a response. Notice if they first remember the information (eye access up and left, for example), then where do they place the picture? This is very valuable infor- mation. Of course, it does require that you see it first. When you see it, you can use it.
15:39 tabledeer: i need to do this more
15:39 TableDuke: In the morning when I want to reinforce certain beliefs, I find the submodalities I use for something that's "true," like breathing is good, and then give my "new beliefs" the true submodalities
15:40 tabledeer: i don't even feel like i know that breathing is good.  i'm kind of a relativist
15:40 TableDuke: Another belief you can use is "The sun will rise tomorrow"
15:41 TableDuke: or if you're really hard case, pick something that's true right htis second, "The sun is up."
15:41 tabledeer: maybe if i did this more, it would delineate my beliefs more, because i don't know what i believe a lot of the time
15:41 tabledeer: i can see that wall over there
15:41 tabledeer: i am sitting
15:41 tabledeer: to the left
15:41 TableDuke: I find myself using "The Sun will rise tomorrow," because it doesn't have any sort of emotional attachment to it
15:42 tabledeer: maybe up a little, but i think just to the left
15:42 DRTABLE has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
15:42 tabledeer: sun will rise tomorrow is more up, i think.  i need to do this when i'm not tired
15:42 tabledeer: if i don't eat, i will die, to the left
15:43 TableDuke: When you read "A Time For A Change," he'll go into submodalities again in detail. During the 80s Bandler got really turned on by submodality exercises
15:43 tabledeer: maybe i'm not sure the sun will come up tomorrow
15:43 tabledeer: lol
15:43 TableDuke: One thing I want to suggest, is that in regards to your self-help, like belief change, don't just use your eyes, I like to pay attention to where I "hear" the words in my head
15:44 legendd: ^explain that
15:44 legendd: more
15:44 tabledeer: it seems like you could even use your kinesthetic system by paying attention to your body
15:44 TableDuke: I'm not sure how. Like when I think "The sun will come up tomorrow," the words seem to come from the top of my forehead, inside my skull
15:45 TableDuke: So I say the things I want to reinforce in that same area, using my inner dialouge
15:45 TableDuke: It works really well lol
15:46 TableDuke: I'm mostly kinesthetic, so sometimes I utilize it in belief change, like I'll bring up feelings of what "feels true"
15:46 tabledeer: one of the reasons i have a hard time looking people in the eyes when i talk to them is i have to keep looking up and to the sides
15:46 tabledeer: i don't know if that's because i don't like looking people in the eye
15:46 tabledeer: or if i'm accessing
15:47 TableDuke: It might be, holding steady eye contact took me some practice, now I'm really good at it
15:47 tabledeer: like if i look at people and try to talk, i can have a hard time handling it
15:47 tabledeer: i had someone try to make me do it, and it was like making a cat look at you
15:48 tabledeer: the other exercise is on p32
15:48 TableDuke: Sounds like something you'll need to practice, I remember having a lot of internal resistence when I first started working on eye contact
15:48 tabledeer: yeah, i used to try a lot and i just gave up
15:48 tabledeer: i will start trying again
15:49 TableDuke: On page 32 he also begins the "sales call" example; I love some of the stuff he's doing in this example
15:49 tabledeer: "Now, Let me ask you to do the following, I want you to think of an example of each of these things. First one and then the other. First, I want you to think of something where you walked in, you looked at it, you absolutely had to have it, you bought it and you're delighted with it? " is the passage i'm talking
15:49 tabledeer: but go on
15:49 TableDuke: He asks them a question they can't say no to,  no one is going to say I DONT LIKE DIAMONDS,  the worst thing is they'll say they don't care about them or have some excuse like "theyre too exxpensive"
15:50 TableDuke: then he catches their attention with the onorthodox,
15:50 TableDuke: and then he agrees with her objections
15:51 TableDuke: "I don't think you could do it either (pace, agreement, working with their map of the world)  without my help (lead)."
15:51 tabledeer: right
15:52 tabledeer: that struck me as particularly solid as well
15:52 tabledeer: i guess pacing/leading is the principle behind agree and amplify
15:52 TableDuke: This entire chapter is a list of submodality exercises, now that I think of it lol
15:52 legendd: tabledeer: what helps me with eyecontact is thinking of this little tidbit
15:52 tabledeer: it's like "why YES, and REFRAME"
15:53 legendd: tabledeer: friend/interview/etc 40-50% hold eye contact during convo
15:53 legendd: tabledeer: romantic 70-80%
15:54 tabledeer: that's good to know.  i can look at people when THEY'RE talking.  i just tend to freeze up if i look at people when i'm talking
15:54 tabledeer: like my brain stops making words
15:54 tabledeer: i will talk to my counselor about that
15:55 tabledeer: the other quote i really liked from the book was p39 "And you know what, if you are always the second person to get the chance to sell some- thing to somebody, and they always buy it from the first one then you won't sell anything. In fact, you won't have anything except regret."
15:55 tabledeer: also very relevant to pickup or courtship
15:55 TableDuke: That builds on the rapport stuff talked about, too
15:56 TableDuke: The rapport techniques help get you from "you," to "I."
15:57 tabledeer: you mean with the eye contact?
15:57 aypez: quick q, when you are pace and lead, do you pace in between for some sort of acknowledgement?
15:57 aypez: pause*
15:57 tabledeer: and has anyone read Patterns of Plausible Inference
15:58 aypez: such as a head nod (although I read that Bandler would do this 'for them' so to speak) or eyes lighting up
15:58 TableDuke: Well I mean everything, in that quote he wants to get you from "second person," you should, what if you,  to talking "I,"
15:58 TableDuke: aypez:  It really depends on what you're pacing, I don't wait for agreement when I'm pacing obvious stuff like, it's Sunday, we're in IRC, we're talking about a book called Persuasion engineering, Mandeer is here
15:59 tabledeer: huh, i was reading it as suggesting quick action, but that's interesting
15:59 tabledeer: i can think of plenty of examples of people pacing and leading without gaps
15:59 tabledeer: i don't know what's most powerful
15:59 aypez: me too, I was just curious
15:59 aypez: whether you needed some sort of acknowledgement
15:59 aypez: to begin to lead them
16:00 tabledeer: but if you're pacing and leading someone who's emotionally distraught, you might even specifically request agreement for the pacing
16:00 TableDuke: By the way, there's something in the book "Covert Persuasion," I think really helps;  Never get them to agree or verbally state something you want to change later on.  If you want to pace them, and then lead them with something like "...and that makes you feel really comfortable, doesn't it?"
16:00 legendd: tabledeer:
16:00 TableDuke: then if you get them to agree with the lead, like with a head nod or a verbal response, it builds a congruency
16:00 legendd: i remember duke telling me before
16:00 legendd: pacing and leading works both ways
16:01 legendd: with gaps to slow it down
16:01 legendd: without gaps to toad them to speed it up
16:01 tabledeer: ok, i'm going to pastebin this now
16:01 TableDuke: PHEW