<gammafunk> yeah appendage is fine where it is

[20:34:19] <bh> |amethyst: can we remove sticks to snakes without making tmut unplayable?
[20:34:31] <Lasty> imo yes
[20:34:35] <Lasty> but it would be harder
[20:34:36] <gammafunk> removing StS outright with no replacement sounds not good
[20:34:37] <|amethyst> I don't know, I don't play tmut much
[20:34:43] <Bloax> give ozo's armor instead
[20:35:06] <Bloax> and make beastly appendage give many auxes whose level depend on your spellpower instead of always giving one level 3 one
[20:35:12] <Bloax> done
[20:37:30] * agolden has quit (Quit: agolden)
[20:37:56] >Sequell< !lg * --Tm s=name
[20:39:00] <Bloax> !lg * s=name
[20:39:09] <Sequell> 4179272 games for *: 106010x Sebi, 40591x ew, 21985x Meow, 19336x syban, 12562x heteroy, 12372x TGW, 11768x pigah, 11351x dscm, 10825x LogicNinja, 10555x neil, 10454x KiloByte, 10140x firemonkey, 9960x adamzap, 9068x Xiberia, 8973x phyphor, 8956x soul, 8809x Elynae, 8592x 4thArraOfDagon, 8316x BirdoPrey, 8043x Tenaya, 8034x Ivo, 7988x silentsnack, 7986x qtip, 7805x Fieros, 7138x Thrall, 6810x Kell...
[20:39:26] <kvaak> tmut is already hard
[20:39:42] <Bloax> transmuters are such a horrible class to start with
[20:39:53] <Bloax> mostly because you're 100% melee and your only weapon is terrible
[20:40:01] <kvaak> short of mo and (maybe) wr it's probably the single worst start
[20:40:15] <Bloax> mo is a better starter than tm
[20:40:20] <Bloax> because your weapon doesn't suck as much
[20:40:30] <yokelz> trtm coolest to start as
[20:40:44] <yokelz> trtmĉ^chei
[20:42:10] <elliptic> bh, gammafunk: I don't think Tm needs s2s at all
[20:43:44] <elliptic> keep in mind that s2s doesn't help you at XL 1 at all and that at XL 3 you already have spider form (maybe not at a great success rate, but you don't need a great success rate for it)
[20:44:03] <Bloax> jesus christ
[20:44:06] <elliptic> if Tm without s2s is deemed too hard at start, just give it a little more unarmed skill or dodging skill
[20:44:18] <Bloax> at xl1 your accuracy against an adder is 40%
[20:44:33] <gammafunk> elliptic: sure, if you allow adjusting the starting stats. I think keeping the stats and removing sts would be a significant nerf the the start
[20:45:10] <elliptic> gammafunk: well at XL 3 Tm is already quite strong and s2s does nothing at XL 1
[20:45:24] * ProzacElf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[20:45:25] <elliptic> gammafunk: so are you just concerned about XL 2? since that is not very much of the game, or even much of the early game
[20:45:40] <Bloax> this is why i'm suggesting to change up appendage
[20:45:50] <|amethyst> !lg * s=xl
[20:45:51] <yokelz> appendage could be a bit more powerful
[20:45:53] <Sequell> 4179294 games for *: 1196513x 1, 515036x 3, 493726x 2, 452523x 4, 342986x 5, 237892x 6, 189885x 7, 156805x 8, 137271x 9, 116713x 10, 92837x 11, 48683x 12, 34840x 27, 32162x 13, 27135x 14, 23220x 15, 19235x 16, 14186x 17, 9969x 18, 7529x 19, 5992x 20, 5022x 21, 4245x 26, 4112x 22, 3750x 25, 3670x 23, 3357x 24
[20:45:54] <|amethyst> !lg * tm s=xl
[20:45:55] <Sequell> 227114 games for * (tm): 63682x 1, 34705x 2, 31388x 3, 24457x 4, 18173x 5, 12277x 6, 9649x 7, 7653x 8, 6636x 9, 5410x 10, 4101x 11, 2142x 12, 1329x 13, 1049x 14, 1022x 27, 885x 15, 643x 16, 484x 17, 308x 18, 252x 19, 190x 20, 127x 26, 123x 25, 116x 22, 112x 21, 104x 24, 97x 23
[20:45:58] <Bloax> because having it give you more auxes kind of solves its spiky power issue
[20:45:58] <elliptic> appendage is already pretty strong IMO
[20:46:08] <Bloax> it hits hard when it actually does
[20:46:14] <Bloax> the problem is just that it doesn't do that often
[20:46:25] <Bloax> and things that kill you early usually don't take long to do so
[20:46:28] <yokelz> elliptic: I felt like being forced to use it not to suck too much
[20:46:36] <|amethyst> well
[20:46:37] <elliptic> yokelz: yes, you should use your L1 spell
[20:46:42] <elliptic> yokelz: this isn't unreasonable
[20:46:49] <|amethyst> conjurers are forced to use magic dart, yes
[20:46:51] <elliptic> yes
[20:46:53] <gammafunk> yeah appendage is fine where it is, I'm just not sure that I agree that an xl tm is terribly strong at xl 3
[20:46:55] <yokelz> other L1 spells are better imo
[20:47:04] <yokelz> like all of them
[20:47:05] <gammafunk> er
[20:47:10] <gammafunk> that but not weirdly phrased
[20:47:24] <Bloax> do you guys even play transmuters
[20:47:34] <elliptic> "yes"
[20:47:36] <yokelz> what do I know I only have couple wins
[20:47:39] <Bloax> well elliptic does
[20:47:46] <yokelz> ima filthy casual
[20:48:16] <elliptic> gammafunk: anyway as I said I'm not opposed to buffing Tm starting skills
[20:48:37] <|amethyst> L2 porcupine form
[20:48:55] <Bloax> ??porc
[20:48:55] <gammafunk> things that don't fool me: minmay reverse psychology and elliptic covertly removing summons!
[20:48:56] <Sequell> porcupine form[1/2]: Small, spiny, fast-moving form. Can't cast spells or use wands.
[20:49:01] <|amethyst> oh, it's fast
[20:49:03] <|amethyst> maybe not then
[20:49:05] * agolden (~agolden@c-24-143-118-194.customer.broadstripe.net) has joined
[20:49:10] <elliptic> (or giving Tm a L2 spell if someone comes up with a good one, but I don't think we need to wait on that to remove s2s if we don't like s2s)
[20:49:14] <|amethyst> that could be changed
[20:49:14] <Bloax> clearly wisp form
[20:49:16] <elliptic> (I don't like s2s)
[20:49:29] <Bloax> i think s2s is hilarious but not really fitting
[20:49:37] <Bloax> at least into this time and day
[20:49:42] <gammafunk> what if spider form were fast....
[20:49:45] <yokelz> s2s is dumb
[20:49:59] <Bloax> clearly you haven't used it at very high power in zot:5!
[20:50:03] <Bloax> it's hilarious
[20:50:04] <yokelz> no
[20:50:11] <|amethyst> S2S should be a beogh ability anyway
[20:50:17] <|amethyst> or is that too old-testament
[20:50:19] <Bloax> killing orb guardians with massive amounts of snakes
[20:50:19] <yokelz> !won
[20:50:20] <Sequell> yokelz has won 32 times in 495 games (6.46%): 3xMiBe 2xDECj 2xHEFE 2xSpEn 1xCeHu 1xDDBe 1xDgWz 1xDrTm 1xDsFi 1xFoGl 1xGhMo 1xGrBe 1xGrFi 1xHOBe 1xHaBe 1xHaFi 1xHuBe 1xKoBe 1xLOBe 1xMfAs 1xMiFi 1xOgBe 1xOpFE 1xTeVM 1xTrAr 1xVSMo 1xVpMo
[20:50:38] <gammafunk> I find sts to be pretty fun to use, but it's not in the right place with tm really
[20:51:08] <yokelz> I hate playing with pets anyway, but thats just me
[20:53:34] <Bloax> i'm not sure what would be wrong with making appendage give fangs:1 + horns:1 + talons:1 instead of talons:3 || horns:3
[20:54:02] <ontoclasm> sticks to orcs
[20:54:03] <Sequell> ontoclasm: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
[20:54:06] <ontoclasm> !messages
[20:54:07] <Sequell> (1/1) wheals said (2d 4h 33m 35s ago): I - the +5 halberd "Lacertilianslayer" {elec, rF+ Int+3 SInv Stlth+}
[20:54:07] <|amethyst> ??fangs
[20:54:08] <Sequell> sharp teeth[1/2]: Grants an auxiliary unarmed biting attack, increasing in damage with the level of the mutation. Vampires start with 3 levels of sharp teeth.
[20:54:10] <yokelz> sticks to gollums
[20:54:11] <|amethyst> ??fangs[2]
[20:54:12] <Sequell> bite[1/1]: An {auxiliary unarmed} attack you can get if you have sharp teeth or fangs. Damage is (fang mutation level * 2) + ((strength-10) / 5, randomly rounded). If you have less than 10 str, it's just (fang mutation level * 2). For VS, it instead is fangs level * 2 + XL * 2/3
[20:54:13] <|amethyst> ??horns
[20:54:13] <Sequell> horns[1/1]: Could you headbutt before? No. But now you can. Lv 1 allows hats only, Lv 3 blocks all headgear. Also makes your headbutts hurt more. Bigger horns, bigger pain.
[20:54:14] <elliptic> Bloax: among other things, it would conflict with innate mutations more
[20:54:18] <yokelz> needs 5 sticks to make one gollum
[20:54:18] <ontoclasm> wheals: yesss
[20:54:41] <|amethyst> and armour
[20:55:02] <|amethyst> though its situation with armour is a little weird anyway
[20:55:09] <Bloax> what is your situation with armor at d:1
[20:55:15] <elliptic> it would also cause more messages
[20:55:23] <Bloax> it would also, uh
[20:55:25] <Bloax> trigger more
[20:55:27] <|amethyst> ??auxiliary attack[2]
[20:55:27] <Sequell> auxiliary attack ~ auxiliary attacks[2/4]: Base damage: Kick: 5 + (hooves mutation level * 5 / 3) + (1 + talons mutation level) + (tentacle spike mutation level) | Headbutt: 5 + (horns mutation level * 3) | Peck: 6 | Tail-slap: 6 + (stinger mutation level * 2 - 1 [venom branded]) |
[20:55:33] <Bloax> which is the very very important part
[20:55:33] <elliptic> yes that is why it would cause more messages
[20:55:53] <|amethyst> I'm pretty sure 1 level of each of those is stronger than 3 levels of one
[20:55:54] <elliptic> I don't think that having more messages about doing less damage is a good thing
[20:55:58] <|amethyst> because of those constant factors
[20:56:04] <|amethyst> s/factors/terms/
[20:56:07] <elliptic> that's probably true also, yes
[20:56:08] <Bloax> it's very slightly stronger
[20:56:20] <Bloax> but it'll help you kill those pesky adders more often
[20:56:35] <Bloax> instead of it just pretending not to exist and you splatting horrible more
[20:56:47] <Bloax> horribly*
[20:56:53] <elliptic> "let's buff this spell so that players can kill adders more often" is not an argument
[20:57:12] <Bloax> well are we talking about transmuters being terrible starters or are we not talking about transmuters being a terrible starter
[20:57:16] <gammafunk> well is a argument with Bloax really an argument at all...
[20:57:18] <Bloax> i thought we were
[20:57:39] <|amethyst> I thought people were talking about removing S2S
[20:57:52] <|amethyst> and whether *that* would make them a horrible start
[20:57:57] <Bloax> well yes, that would make transmuters suck more
[20:58:12] <Bloax> because now you can't even summon some snakes to kill those adders
[20:58:12] <elliptic> <elliptic> if Tm without s2s is deemed too hard at start, just give it a little more unarmed skill or dodging skill
[20:58:35] <yokelz> more dodging sounds good imo
[20:59:34] <Bloax> setting dodging to a whopping 4 gives 1 more EV
[20:59:42] <kvaak> more dodging sounds worse than more uc
[21:00:15] <Bloax> that's because unlike dodging unarmed actually does quite a bit
[21:00:16] <|amethyst> hm
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[21:00:42] <gammafunk> !stats hutm
[21:00:43] <Sequell> Starting stats for HuTm: Str 10 Int 13 Dex 13. Stat gain: sid/4
[21:00:48] <gammafunk> !stats hugl
[21:00:49] <Sequell> Starting stats for HuGl: Str 15 Int 8 Dex 13. Stat gain: sid/4
[21:00:52] <|amethyst> I guess s2s is the only tm starting spell that cares about how much mp you have
[21:01:10] <elliptic> |amethyst: that's not really true since spells can fail
[21:01:14] <|amethyst> true
[21:01:24] <gammafunk> I train a bit of early spellcasting on the squisher species like op to help with sts mp
[21:01:41] <gammafunk> but after this change I'd not need to (and I guess I'd have more uc at start?)
[21:01:42] <|amethyst> but do people cast tm spells at even 25% fail
[21:01:45] <elliptic> yes
[21:01:57] <Lasty> |amethyst: ~45% is my limit
[21:01:58] <Bloax> then we kite enemies until we finally get spider form off
[21:02:06] <Cheibriados> Lasty * 0.17-a0-454-g3ff70fc: New monster: Entropy Weaver (18 minutes ago, 23 files, 124+ 21-) http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ff70fcd4de0
[21:02:06] <Cheibriados> Lasty * 0.17-a0-455-g1235473: Adjust breath timers for new chants (8 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1235473fdd05
[21:02:06] <gammafunk> 45% is pretty risky
[21:02:11] <gammafunk> but I like 20-25%
[21:02:15] <Lasty> gammafunk: depends on the spell
[21:02:16] <elliptic> spider form at 25% fail is pretty reasonable, obviously lower fail is better though
[21:02:32] <gammafunk> Lasty: miscast effects are pretty dangerous at any school imo
[21:02:42] <gammafunk> I'm talking early game
[21:02:48] <gammafunk> later on you can survive them better
[21:03:13] <gammafunk> maybe some schools are still pretty ignorable though
[21:03:18] <|amethyst> Lasty:  bikeshed: I'd rather have something with a connection to acid in the name rather than 'entropy'
[21:03:20] <Lasty> so am I -- somewhere around 35-ish you can't get harmful effects from, say, spiderform
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[21:03:33] <|amethyst> s/rather than/than/
[21:03:35] <Lasty> |amethyst: I'm concerned that if I make it acid it's harder to explain why it does no damage
[21:03:39] <|amethyst> hm
[21:03:47] <|amethyst> Rust Weaver
[21:04:01] <Bloax> hey wanna know what's HILARIOUS
[21:04:03] <|amethyst> that sounds silly, sorry
[21:04:04] <Lasty> Rust is just a special case of entropy
[21:04:05] <gammafunk> Lasty: I think transmut can do Bad Things to you at 35% with a significantly higher chance than at e.g. 20%
[21:04:12] <|amethyst> verdigris weaver
[21:04:15] <gammafunk> not that I'm above using it in an emergency
[21:04:18] <Bloax> if you dared buff beastly appendage to fangs:2 talons:1 horns:1
[21:04:20] <Bloax> it would...
[21:04:31] <Bloax> still do less damage on a transmuter than a monk at xl1
[21:04:34] <Lasty> gammafunk: I'm not sure of the numbers, but I've never had it go bad
[21:04:46] <Bloax> (fangs:1*)
[21:04:49] <gammafunk> Lasty: I've had 35% fail spells go very badly indeed!
[21:04:54] <gammafunk> ??transmutations_miscast
[21:04:54] <Sequell> transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 {contam}, {petrification}, or {confusion} (last two replaced with Weak in 0.16+). 3: Badform for random2(200) turns, 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 {contam}, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations.
[21:04:57] <Lasty> gammafunk: how badly?
[21:05:02] <Bloax> SPLAT badly
[21:05:05] <gammafunk> *very* *badly*
[21:05:20] <elliptic> gammafunk: miscast severity depends heavily on the level of the spell
[21:05:24] <Lasty> (again, talking about spider form -- higher level stuff is much scarier)
[21:05:32] <Bloax> spider form can meph you
[21:05:36] <Bloax> fun stuff
[21:05:39] <elliptic> gammafunk: so just saying "35% fail" doesn't mean much
[21:05:52] <bh> ima gonna let you finish, but treeform is the best form
[21:05:58] <Bloax> bh: fungus form*
[21:06:06] <|amethyst> bh:  not since they nerfed spriggan treeform
[21:06:17] <bh> |amethyst: how'd we nerf it?
[21:06:23] <gammafunk> elliptic: sure, I'm thinking early game characters, and these are L4 I think
[21:06:32] <gammafunk> so maybe spider form is safe at 35%
[21:06:33] <elliptic> oh, btw, is it intentional that treeform ghosts have non-treeform EV?
[21:06:37] <|amethyst> bh:  not letting it wield GSC that stay wielded when you revert form
[21:06:41] <|amethyst> :)
[21:06:51] <elliptic> they have treeform AC and non-treeform EV, it is sort of cheating :P
[21:06:53] <bh> ha
[21:07:02] <Bloax> do they also have treeform HP
[21:07:09] <gammafunk> ah and ice form is one that's failed spectacularly
[21:07:11] <|amethyst> they should have treeform movement!
[21:07:24] <bh> rTorment is so nice
[21:07:24] <Bloax> well yeah
[21:07:29] <Bloax> ice form can fcloud you
[21:07:30] <Bloax> very fun
[21:07:52] <kvaak> rip walking formicid tree
[21:08:51] <bh> FR: tree race that sends out runners and then grows
[21:09:13] <gammafunk> maybe for badforms ghosts just should use their untransformed attributes in general?
[21:09:21] <gammafunk> I could see using transformed attributes for good forms
[21:09:58] <Bloax> !stats hutm
[21:10:00] <Sequell> Starting stats for HuTm: Str 10 Int 13 Dex 13. Stat gain: sid/4
[21:10:40] <|amethyst> hm, would making orb spider IOOD a chant be more interesting?
[21:10:58] <|amethyst> would make them easier to kill with melee depending on the duration
[21:11:01] <Bloax> well at least you can catch them like that
[21:11:18] <|amethyst> depends
[21:11:21] <|amethyst> not if it's just one turn
[21:11:26] <bh> players should really be able to walk into OODs
[21:11:27] <|amethyst> because they already have to spend a turn to charge
[21:11:45] <Bloax> have you ever tried killing orb spiders with melee with chei
[21:12:13] <|amethyst> doesn't chei have slouch?
[21:12:31] <Bloax> do you like blowing 17 piety on every orb spider (and there are many) you see
[21:12:33] <bh> are there not enough workhouses?
[21:12:51] <gammafunk> chant the mechanic for damaging spells still has significant problems imo
[21:13:01] <bh> Bloax: just chug !slow and it'll do more damage
[21:13:09] <|amethyst> gammafunk:  because you can cut los and cancel it?
[21:13:12] <gammafunk> yeah
[21:13:16] <gammafunk> at least for an orb spider it'd be even more problematic, since orbs are the only thing they do
[21:13:19] <bh> ??okplayer
[21:13:19] <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled okplayer in my learndb. Did you mean: okayplayer, players.
[21:13:24] <bh> ??okayplayer
[21:13:24] <Sequell> okayplayer[1/1]: Okayplayers have a win but not a 15 rune win.
[21:13:32] <gammafunk> heh
[21:13:36] <|amethyst> gammafunk: but they do try to be 4 squares away
[21:13:50] <gammafunk> |amethyst: that makes it easier to break los though
[21:14:31] <|amethyst> I was thinking slightly harder since they probably won't be at edge of LOS... but I guess it means they also won't be close
[21:14:41] <|amethyst> and you just need a wall
[21:14:59] <|amethyst> I suppose letting them shoot at you through walls would be a bit much
[21:15:11] <gammafunk> yeah open areas would be pretty dangerous, but they're pretty dangerous already in open areas