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Drakortha, TAW

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  1. [04/09/2016 10:08:35 PM] *** daniel added Drakortha ***
  2. [04/09/2016 10:09:04 PM] daniel: so
  3. [04/09/2016 10:09:13 PM] daniel: They want to speak about the server in general rn
  4. [04/09/2016 10:09:24 PM] daniel: Like making rules more clear and such.
  5. [04/09/2016 10:10:23 PM] Soner: Heinrich should probably go first, he's the faction leader.
  6. [04/09/2016 10:10:37 PM] Drakortha: 1. no griefing 2. no cheating 3.treat others with respect
  7. [04/09/2016 10:26:17 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Those aren't the rules we're looking for clarification to, at least on my part, nor is it limited merely to rules. We're looking for a more concrete set of PVP rules; what is and isn't viable? No one seems to know. Are we allowed to use lava to kill players? Fire? What is supposed to happen when players hole up in their impenetrable bases? Some way to siege them would be nice. The rules themselves are very general and lead to wide interpretations.. and large gaps in their coverage.
  8.  
  9. There are other issues I admit are bothering me far more than that, though. Your idea of 'Collective responsibility' is, simply put, frightening. You put an entire faction to the sword instead of simply banning the individual who was making trouble. I mean, a whole group of people are quitting because of it, doesn't that worry you? Make you wonder if maybe collective responsibility is bad? Rifting someone's base and destroying their hard work because some individual fucked up is cold. Talk to people, don't just punish without warning, and especially don't use a Roleplaying element of the server to do the punishment. IC should be kept separate from OOC, right? Or better yet, let your mods do it for you, it's their job is it not? And on that note..
  10.  
  11. Staff, too, is a concern of mine and my fellows. "Moderators were demoted because I haven't been around recently and with the cheaters gone for now I wanted to keep things simple." Like four or five moderators were removed, with one left. I mean, Mods were already having a hard time keeping up, and you've already admitted you haven't been around recently. How is removing well over 3/4ths the staff going to solve the problem with cheaters and dickheads? This one's really got me confused.
  12.  
  13. The others may have more questions regarding other topics, but those are the main ones I wanted to raise. I may have further questions depending on the answers.
  14.  
  15. For reference, I am Centaurishin off the server, Heinrich is UoHeinrich, and Soner is DancingMage.
  16. [04/09/2016 10:30:56 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Heinrich and I both run our own community, if that lends us any sort of legitimacy were administrative issues are concerned. Everyone in the Valdian Republic (Night's Watch, Grunwald, Highland and Rangers) are from that community with the exception of DancingMage, PSI_Starman and David_Locke
  17. [04/09/2016 10:34:45 PM] Soner: I'm just gonna say, regarding the collective punishment thing, I can understand if Drakortha wants us to be more self-policing moving forward. But I would hope that means more discussing issues with faction leaders, so we can enforce things before they get out of hand.
  18.  
  19. I can't speak for the last group that was rifted. But if it was really as abrupt and opaque as they claim, it seems like they barely had a chance to realize why they were being punished, only that they should "be more careful".
  20. [04/09/2016 10:35:29 PM] Drakortha: it wasnt
  21. [04/09/2016 10:35:41 PM] Drakortha: they were practically asking me for a rift for a week
  22. [04/09/2016 10:36:00 PM | Edited 10:36:30 PM] Soner: Can you explain what they did? The only thing I've heard is that one of them used x-ray.
  23. [04/09/2016 10:37:05 PM] Drakortha: during the previous rift some of them taunted and wanted something more challenging and threatening
  24. [04/09/2016 10:37:18 PM] Drakortha: they also had an entire rift plan in their base on a big board
  25. [04/09/2016 10:37:55 PM] Drakortha: it was abrupt in the sense that, it came without warning and they werent able to prepare themselves.
  26. [04/09/2016 10:38:01 PM] Drakortha: but they knew a rift was coming
  27. [04/09/2016 10:40:20 PM] Drakortha: dont forget valk was also part of the war going on
  28. [04/09/2016 10:40:36 PM] Drakortha: just as involved as voska. who were rifted 5 times
  29. [04/09/2016 10:41:12 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: That's not the general feeling I'm getting from the way they've responded to the Facepunch forum post, but I can believe that they may be somewhat bitter. As long as you say that Collective Responsibility isn't a thing and that you're not rifting people because you dislike them, that's completely alright. That resolves that issue neatly. What of staff, and PVP rules?
  30. [04/09/2016 10:41:19 PM] daniel: I'm still confused about the mod thing tbh.
  31. [04/09/2016 10:42:06 PM] Drakortha: i dont want another ordinator ordeal
  32. [04/09/2016 10:42:20 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: 'Ordinator ordeal'?
  33. [04/09/2016 10:42:23 PM] daniel: Most of the players like the current mods, though.
  34. [04/09/2016 10:42:30 PM] daniel: Bad moderation period, Cent.
  35. [04/09/2016 10:42:35 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Ah.
  36. [04/09/2016 10:42:47 PM] Drakortha: no i mean the public thing
  37. [04/09/2016 10:43:01 PM] Drakortha: it just doesnt interest me
  38. [04/09/2016 10:43:07 PM] daniel: public thing?
  39. [04/09/2016 10:43:10 PM] Drakortha: play minecraft have fun
  40. [04/09/2016 10:43:30 PM] Soner: So you want the moderation to purely be a meta thing, as opposed to some ever-present and visible force like the ordinators were?
  41. [04/09/2016 10:43:51 PM] Heinrich: I would personally like to know why there is an admin hit list and why my faction is on that list.
  42. [04/09/2016 10:43:53 PM] Drakortha: 2 things,
  43. [04/09/2016 10:44:00 PM] Drakortha: i dislike inner circles very much
  44. [04/09/2016 10:44:10 PM] Drakortha: when it shows signs of that it needs to go
  45. [04/09/2016 10:44:20 PM] Drakortha: and i guess there isnt a 2nd thing
  46. [04/09/2016 10:45:03 PM] Drakortha: the players in that faction were banned over and over again
  47. [04/09/2016 10:45:16 PM] Drakortha: and i was lenient because i dont like perm banning people
  48. [04/09/2016 10:45:50 PM] Drakortha: but im not taken seriously because of that
  49. [04/09/2016 10:45:55 PM] Drakortha: so the cheating went on
  50. [04/09/2016 10:45:56 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: In our community, we have a system for that. A sort of three strikes rule, with progressive punishment.
  51. [04/09/2016 10:46:47 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Warning is taken outside the ban, to let people know they're doing wrong. Then light ban. Long ban. Permaban, with appeal. If they appeal, and seem relatively genuine, we allow them a second chance.. but it they do it again, they're gone for good. It works well for us
  52. [04/09/2016 10:47:33 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Leaves you remarkably guilt free, too. They knew the consequences, but they kept doing it. If they didn't want to be permanently banned, they had three chances to stop
  53. [04/09/2016 10:48:40 PM] Drakortha: exactly but these players didnt care because they knew they'd be let back on
  54. [04/09/2016 10:49:02 PM] Drakortha: so the cheating went on
  55. [04/09/2016 10:49:11 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Therein lies one of the problems, then. They were allowed to keep coming back
  56. [04/09/2016 10:49:38 PM] Drakortha: the problem is they cheat
  57. [04/09/2016 10:50:11 PM] Drakortha: they get back on alts if you dont let them back
  58. [04/09/2016 10:50:12 PM] Soner: If they've been repeatedly cheating, it sounds like you made the right decision removing them. But... do you have any idea why they cheated?
  59. [04/09/2016 10:50:54 PM] Drakortha: because they are panzies that find minecraft too hard to play vanilla
  60. [04/09/2016 10:51:05 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: The problem is that the consequence isn't dire enough for continuing it after being told not to. If you had the opportunity to go down to the bank and steal a thousand dollars, but the only consequence was that you'd get a rough punch to the back of the head--otherwise, you'd be just fine--I'd take that thousand dollars every fucking day, thank you very much
  61. [04/09/2016 10:51:56 PM] Drakortha: yeah but then we should tie a noose around your neck, and around your buddies who helped stashed the money you stole
  62. [04/09/2016 10:53:30 PM] Drakortha: pay no attention to facepunch. btw fribbler is the guy who completely lava griefed vox's compound during the modded server for no reason
  63. [04/09/2016 10:53:41 PM] Drakortha: so we're dealing with scum here
  64. [04/09/2016 10:53:49 PM] Drakortha: they dont deserve your sympathy
  65. [04/09/2016 10:54:01 PM] daniel: I mean if you wanted the cheaters caught, why reduce the mod team?
  66. [04/09/2016 10:54:05 PM] daniel: It just makes it harder.
  67. [04/09/2016 10:54:50 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: But that falls back under collective responsibility, and we don't do that. That's bad. I'll say that it's more of a problem in Minecraft than it is in our community; We play a game called SS13, and it's not as persistent as TAW is. I'm not sure how you'd go about policing that sort of thing, but it should start at the root of the problem; getting rid of the source of the issue, and making sure it stays gone.
  68. [04/09/2016 10:56:13 PM] Drakortha: i think its gone for now
  69. [04/09/2016 10:57:47 PM] Soner: What about next time? What's your approach going to be then? So long as the server is PvP, it's inevitable that people will try to get some sort of "edge".
  70. [04/09/2016 10:58:01 PM] Drakortha: type /rules in-game simple
  71. [04/09/2016 10:59:28 PM] Soner: So... if someone's cheating, you just do /rules, and if they do it again you ban them and everyone they associated with?
  72. [04/09/2016 10:59:40 PM] Soner: I don't follow.
  73. [04/09/2016 11:00:49 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: I don't know how get gets rid of the goods. Whether he goes through it chest by chest, or destroys enough resources to compensate. I don't think he bans them all. That would be a bit much
  74. [04/09/2016 11:01:13 PM] Drakortha: the chests were wiped before the rift came
  75. [04/09/2016 11:02:09 PM] Drakortha: dont forget lockette is gone on the 16th
  76. [04/09/2016 11:03:19 PM] Soner: If the chests were wiped, why did you rift their base? Just to upset them enough to hopefully make them leave forever, since you can't ban all of their alts?
  77. [04/09/2016 11:03:38 PM | Edited 11:04:17 PM] Drakortha: only the cheaters were banned, the other members of the faction werent. the place was rifted so the banned players have nothing to come back to
  78. [04/09/2016 11:04:26 PM] Soner: The other members also don't have any goods or a base now. Even if they weren't banned, they've lost everything tying them to the server, except for history.
  79. [04/09/2016 11:05:07 PM] Drakortha: if they are good then take them in
  80. [04/09/2016 11:05:37 PM] daniel: They haven't.
  81. [04/09/2016 11:05:50 PM] daniel: I spoke to Frib earlier, they are fine.
  82. [04/09/2016 11:06:57 PM] Soner: [Saturday, April 9, 2016 11:05 PM] Drakortha:
  83.  
  84. <<< if they are good then take them inYeah, that's probably not gonna happen, nobody's starting a TAW Refugee Program purely out of the kindness of their heart.
  85. [04/09/2016 11:07:11 PM] Drakortha: right
  86. [04/09/2016 11:07:36 PM] Drakortha: so if your not taking them in you have no reason to feel bad for them
  87. [04/09/2016 11:08:09 PM] Drakortha: if you really cared you'd take action
  88. [04/09/2016 11:08:20 PM] Drakortha: are you sure you just arent worried you'll get rifted too because of a faction member?
  89. [04/09/2016 11:08:47 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: This -is- our action
  90. [04/09/2016 11:09:01 PM] Drakortha: words are not action
  91. [04/09/2016 11:09:06 PM] Soner: I mean, until just this very second we had no idea what was happening, so yes fear was running rampant. When everyone is left completely in the dark, and only has rumours to go on, of course they're not going to put their necks on the line.
  92. [04/09/2016 11:09:20 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: If we didn't care about the server, we wouldn't be bothering to talk with you to hash things out. We would have already left.
  93. [04/09/2016 11:10:12 PM] Drakortha: well to clarify then, nobody else is getting rifted unless they are actively involved in a war and cheating at the same time to do it
  94. [04/09/2016 11:11:54 PM] Soner: [Saturday, April 9, 2016 11:09 PM] Drakortha:
  95.  
  96. <<< words are not actionWhat did you mean by this anyway? Would you rather we discuss our issues with you, or make obtuse and meta gestures in a videogame while hoping you guess our stance?
  97. [04/09/2016 11:12:24 PM | Edited 11:12:31 PM] Soner: Like, "Well, when we took these random players in who's situation we don't fully understand, it meant..." I can't even figure out how to finish that. It means nothing.
  98. [04/09/2016 11:14:29 PM | Edited 11:16:06 PM] Soner: It sounds like you're in the same boat as us, desperately trying to understand what the people in Valdia are thinking because we haven't directly told you much. I know that can't be good, so believe me when I say we'd like to talk more, if you have questions.
  99. [04/09/2016 11:16:27 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: We would fucking love to talk more. We're not bad people. We like the server--for the most part--and would love to help it grow. I've already donated some dosh in that regard in fact. But to be honest, you seem really disconnected. Like you don't care to be a part of this conversation or answering our questions at all, is that what's going on?
  100. [04/09/2016 11:17:09 PM] daniel: I honestly just think we need more direct communication here.
  101. [04/09/2016 11:17:20 PM] daniel: Instead of build up and build up.
  102. [04/09/2016 11:17:31 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Clarify that, Daniel?
  103. [04/09/2016 11:17:45 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: 'Build up and build up' of what?
  104. [04/09/2016 11:18:02 PM] daniel: Smaller events, I suppose.
  105. [04/09/2016 11:18:21 PM] daniel: Miscommunications, Like the faction abuse thing
  106. [04/09/2016 11:20:43 PM] daniel: Or the current mod situation
  107. [04/09/2016 11:20:50 PM] daniel: Things that no one filly gets
  108. [04/09/2016 11:21:10 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Yep, that's still got me clueless. 'Inner circles'? The heck is that?
  109. [04/09/2016 11:24:47 PM] Soner: I think he means mods favouring particular players because they're in the same circle.
  110. [04/09/2016 11:25:18 PM] daniel: I mean that is inevitable
  111. [04/09/2016 11:25:24 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: That's going to happen no matter who is doing it. It's impossible to fully prevent bias
  112. [04/09/2016 11:25:36 PM] daniel: Me and achiever have been friends for years, we dislike the same people.
  113. [04/09/2016 11:25:53 PM] daniel: I try not to be completely biased.
  114. [04/09/2016 11:26:16 PM] daniel: I speak to everyone on the server, and Christ that was difficult sometimes.
  115. [04/09/2016 11:26:43 PM] The Real Slim Slovak: Trying not to be biased is the sign of a good administrator. I'll be honest, I was very impressed with how reasonable and mature you were when you were handling your responsibilities, Daniel
  116. [04/09/2016 11:26:45 PM] Soner: The hierarchy definitely needs to be fair though. The term Circle of Trust comes to mind for me. You need to have a core group of people you KNOW won't screw up, then they can delegate to other people, and so on.
  117.  
  118. It's used in everything from security management to programming.
  119. [04/09/2016 11:27:57 PM] Soner: The problem isn't so much "circles" existing, it's what they do. So on that basis, I think it's better contexualized as corruption. We can't just eliminate entire models because there's a /possibility/ of corruption.
  120. [04/09/2016 11:29:20 PM] Soner: (What I'm saying is I really hope that there's more than one mod, although I get it if you need to rethink the current staff or their power.)
  121. [04/09/2016 11:29:50 PM] daniel: There is only one moderator right now.
  122. [04/09/2016 11:30:05 PM] daniel: One admin and one mod.
  123. [04/09/2016 11:30:31 PM] Soner: Right now, but I'm HOPING things will change, especially if we're hoping for the new world to bring new players.
  124. [04/09/2016 11:30:38 PM] daniel: Unfortunately, achiever and Drak aren't active for a large chunk of the day where myself or Doyle would be.
  125. [04/09/2016 11:55:27 PM] Soner: Since it's been about 40 minutes, I'll be more direct:
  126. Drakortha, we get you're having a rough time with the server right now. I can tell you're really upset with the way people haven't been respecting you, and you feel key members of your community have let you down.
  127.  
  128. But we want to respect you, and we want you to respect us. We want to be able to work with you towards making this server the best it can be. We're not trying to tell you what to do, we'd love for you to offer guidance, and any suggestions we make are to help with order or communication.
  129.  
  130. If we've said or done something wrong, just tell us. We'll apologize, do our best to correct it, and we can move on. We want you to help us, and we want to help you however we can.
  131.  
  132. So whenever you're ready, no matter harsh or terse it is, please speak to us. Even if it's just to tell us you hate everything we've said so far, anything so that we can move forward.
  133. [04/09/2016 11:58:00 PM] Drakortha: everything is going to be okay
  134. [12:03:06 AM] Soner: Please, no, there has to be something more than platitudes you can offer. All four of our factions are at stake here. Dozens of people are involved. Can't you give us anything more than that?
  135. [12:04:15 AM] Drakortha: have some faith
  136. [12:04:36 AM] Drakortha: it can go a long way
  137. [12:09:21 AM] Soner: Relationships aren't based on faith, they're based on understanding.
  138. [12:12:08 AM] Soner: I'm sorry, but if you're not willing to understand us, there's not much that can be done. Give us something to work with, and I know I'll respond as best I can. But we can't pour all our time into a game based on faith.
  139. [12:12:35 AM] Drakortha: what do you think is going to happen?
  140. [12:25:04 AM] Soner: Well, you're speaking in vague terms, and not directly addressing our concerns. This a reflection of the problem we've been having, with a lack of information, and the cause of our fears.
  141.  
  142. If we continue to be left in the dark, that means turning to rumours for some sense of security. Wrongful ideas will run rampant, we'll probably make many mistakes, and the server will be in further disarray.
  143.  
  144. All of this will make even more problems for you, given there's currently 2 staff members, and there's no telling when either of you will be on. You'll be stuck resolving tangled webs of lies that exist in the abscence of simple statements you could have been making.
  145.  
  146. Furthermore, the distance you're creating means people are less likely to address their grievances in a constructive manner, since they feel that you're not approachable. For a healthy server where everyone is invested, the administrator has to be on good speaking terms with his community.
  147.  
  148. Essentially, what we want is to be involved. We want to have fair and specific rulings on all important matters, so that being involved is easier. We want to be able to talk with you, give you our ideas, hear yours, and make the server a better place.
  149. [12:26:16 AM | Edited 12:26:45 AM] Soner: When you brush people off and tell them to "have faith", you're denying them agency, and asserting that they don't need or deserve to know your plans.
  150. [12:28:07 AM] Soner: I know you don't owe us anything, it is your server, but people can only help if you offer them an opportunity. If you think we don't contribute much, and we're lucky to have the opportunity to even be on the server, then you don't have to tell us anything. But if you think we could do something more, then we have to work together.
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