vandaldiscussion

TheVandals - Today at 2:37 AM
yo
got an e-mail in my inbox asking me about my boner for D&D
same - Today at 2:37 AM
oh boy.
Mama Fistess - Today at 2:37 AM
Heeere we go
same - Today at 2:37 AM
HERE WE GO
Hunter548 - Today at 2:37 AM
yeah bruv
what's with the weird boner for an awful tabletop system
TheVandals - Today at 2:38 AM
its uh rilly gud bruv
Hunter548 - Today at 2:39 AM
any system from who the best way to balance it is to ban all core classes is, by definition, horrifically balanced
TheVandals - Today at 2:39 AM
ah
well how can I deny that flawless logic?
Cell - Today at 2:39 AM

TheVandals - Today at 2:39 AM
You win!
Mama Fistess - Today at 2:40 AM

same - Today at 2:41 AM
your solutions to problems are unworkable from a sheer work point of view, never mind anything else
Hunter548 - Today at 2:41 AM
>i am unable to defend my opinions, thus i'll become sarcastic at the other dude's arguments
same - Today at 2:41 AM
due to the fact that they require a total and utter overhaul of everything ever created in the past decade+ arelith's been around
never mind the content of your suggestions
TheVandals - Today at 2:42 AM
That these problems persist after a decade is proof a new approach is warranted.
Cell - Today at 2:42 AM
hoots
same - Today at 2:42 AM
well there's also the fact that what you see as problems are not viewed as problems by the dev team, so that's not a great start
Hunter548 - Today at 2:42 AM
exactly what problem do you think has been around for 10 years
Miaou - Today at 2:42 AM
Hello!
same - Today at 2:42 AM
further, that level of work is barely undertaken by paid professional dev teams for MMOs
Koala Kong - Today at 2:42 AM
so...
same - Today at 2:42 AM
never mind a bunch of dudes who like vidya gaems
TheVandals - Today at 2:42 AM
Oh?
Koala Kong - Today at 2:42 AM
the whole...
>That these problems persist after a decade is proof a new approach is warranted.
...a new approach is being taken...ever since Irongron took over?
and a lot of shit has been made better
same - Today at 2:43 AM
The entire creature palette- as a former DM I can guarantee that's at least in the high hundreds -
Miaou - Today at 2:43 AM
I like biscuits.
same - Today at 2:44 AM
Would need to be remade, according to that one idea you had about basing monster stats off D&D stats
Every single NPC would need remade
Miaou - Today at 2:44 AM
I like eggs too, but it makes my mouth feel weird.
:~:
TheVandals - Today at 2:46 AM
All the major problems plaguing Arelith balance wise could be identified and fixed in no time flat without a whole lot of work. I'd say the one good point you have is going back and re-balancing all the mobs. That'd be time consuming but not impossible. Really, why problems persist, is that people just like getting lots of power without paying much for it, which is why the gifts are popular, why tumble/umd/spellcraft dumping is popular, and why there's only a tiny handful of really permiere builds.
Hunter548 - Today at 2:47 AM
what
problems
same - Today at 2:47 AM
That'd be time consuming but not impossible

I can tell you right now that the sheer level of work involved in that one part alone would make it prohibitively absurd, without an expansion of the dev team (unlikely)
Hunter548 - Today at 2:47 AM
you go on and on about how barbs have more HP than rogues and the difference is bigger than in pvp
but you've never actually explained why that's a problem
TheVandals - Today at 2:47 AM
Okay, most of my activity on the forums is in RESPONSE to other people who have pointed out a problem.
So, someone ELSE has said "Oh look, this is broken."
And I'm saying "Yep, it's broken because of this."
same - Today at 2:48 AM
The game is balanced around a higher power level than regular D&D. That's a fact and basically a design principle of the Arelith server.
Your philosophy would work fine and dandy if you either made your own server, or coup'd the devs.
TheVandals - Today at 2:48 AM
Would you like to hear my answer to that question Hunter?
Hunter548 - Today at 2:48 AM
you're making the assumption that 95% of the people on the forums can tell their head from their ass when it comes to balance
they can't
Cell - Today at 2:48 AM
lmao
Miaou - Today at 2:48 AM
My feet kinda hurt when I bend them.
Cell - Today at 2:48 AM
okay hang on i just
gotta point this out
you're making the assumption that 95% of the people on the forums can tell their head from their ass when it comes to balance
Miaou - Today at 2:48 AM
I should move my feet more.
Cell - Today at 2:48 AM
truest thing
said here today
TheVandals - Today at 2:49 AM
Yeah?
Peppermint did the ranger update.
Hunter548 - Today at 2:49 AM
peppermint's in the 5%
same - Today at 2:49 AM
Okay
Cell - Today at 2:49 AM
rangers a work in progress
TheVandals - Today at 2:49 AM
Since ranger is about the only class I play, I pointed out to him/her the problems with the update.
Cell - Today at 2:49 AM
one of which hes not alone in, im involved too in a way
TheVandals - Today at 2:50 AM
Then there's barbarian, which other people have been discussing long before I ever got here.
Oh, and who started the rogue thread, was it me?
Nooooope.
YOu guys must think rogue just rocks right?
you're the 5% that knows the truth! Rogue rules!
Koala Kong - Today at 2:50 AM
wait
Cell - Today at 2:50 AM
well being the one who
Hunter548 - Today at 2:50 AM
No, I think rogues are actually lackluster, it's just not people skilldumping UMD that makes them bad.
Cell - Today at 2:50 AM
started the thread
Koala Kong - Today at 2:50 AM
what're you complaining about with barbarians?
Cell - Today at 2:51 AM
im leaning more towards buffing rogues lightly.
same - Today at 2:51 AM
if you remove skilldumping and UMD you need to rebalance the server in totality, can't/won't (pick) be done
Hunter548 - Today at 2:51 AM
People skilldump UMD because the magic item level on arelith is low enough that you have to make up the difference with spells and spell-producing effects.
TheVandals - Today at 2:51 AM
Okay, but check this out. Since anyone can skill dump, you can't fix rogue skills without buffing everyone else, and since we measure builds in comparison to one-another, we can't make rogue better, by making everyone better.
same - Today at 2:51 AM
make rogue better, tie everything to level 5 rogues and above
Cell - Today at 2:52 AM
we can actually
see: fighter
Hunter548 - Today at 2:52 AM
or give them something to do that isn't tied directly to skills, but is tied indirectly to it
Cell - Today at 2:52 AM
fighter enhancements are given at lvl 5-10-15-20-25-30
not at 1-4
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 2:52 AM
Ah yes
TheVandals - Today at 2:52 AM
Trust me, I'm super smart. My brain is huge. I'm genius level smart. And handsome.
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 2:52 AM
That's actually a decent idea
Hunter548 - Today at 2:52 AM
are
are you being serious or are you funposting
same - Today at 2:52 AM
either this is the real vandals and he's actually a sperg and will fit right into this chat just fine
TheVandals - Today at 2:52 AM
I'm being serious and uh... fun-posting?
same - Today at 2:52 AM
or it's someone shitposting
Hunter548 - Today at 2:53 AM
but
anywho
If you make UMD require, say
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 2:53 AM
Conner don't allow him to take my role
Hunter548 - Today at 2:53 AM
Majority levels in a UMD class
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 2:53 AM
My place
Hunter548 - Today at 2:53 AM
Less people aren't going to take UMD
same - Today at 2:53 AM
nobody can replace you rutger
Hunter548 - Today at 2:53 AM
people are just going to play a shitload more battlebards
TheVandals - Today at 2:53 AM
Okay, dude, don't you see that if you make UMD require X levels in a class... you're basically doing exactly what I said, and nerfing the skill dump?
same - Today at 2:53 AM
Fam
Famalamaafdgh
Cell - Today at 2:53 AM
dont say fam
or any variants of it
same - Today at 2:53 AM
Neither of us suggested that
Hunter548 - Today at 2:53 AM
whoa black betty
famalam
same - Today at 2:54 AM
make rogue better, tie everything to level 5 rogues and above
That doesn't translate to "kill UMD for everyone else"
It translates to buff the class
Hunter548 - Today at 2:54 AM
okay, how would you make rogues better then vandals
let's hear it
TheVandals - Today at 2:54 AM
killing the skill dump doesn't translate into 'kill umd for everyone else' either
same - Today at 2:54 AM
does
Cell - Today at 2:54 AM
@same it was ambiguous
Hunter548 - Today at 2:54 AM
yes it does
same - Today at 2:54 AM
it adjusts the power balance in a massive way and mandates rebuilds for all
TheVandals - Today at 2:54 AM
Okay, let me ask you this hunter, why do most people go bard and skill dump?
same - Today at 2:54 AM
historically has never happened, unprecedented, do not make a suggestion relying on it
Hunter548 - Today at 2:55 AM
because UMD and also spellcraft
same - Today at 2:55 AM
also Disc depending
Hunter548 - Today at 2:55 AM
also disc for casters ye
TheVandals - Today at 2:56 AM
Yes, but not just because UMD and spellcraft and discipline, but because of all of those things at a very very very low cost. And the cost is especially low for certain builds. For example, a fighter gives up basically jack shit going 3 rogue in epic, whereas a ranger gives up animal companion levels, spell durations, favored enemies, ect ect.
Cell - Today at 2:56 AM
aaaactually
TheVandals - Today at 2:56 AM
What I'm trying to illustrate is that in economics you need SCARCITY.
You can't give shit away for free.
Cell - Today at 2:56 AM
a ranger going 23 or 30 doesnt makes all tha much of a difference.
Koala Kong - Today at 2:56 AM
talking about economy...
Cell - Today at 2:56 AM
especially with the upcoming ranger update.
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 2:57 AM
> You can't give shit away for free
You're everything Rhaeg fights against
Cell - Today at 2:57 AM
keep note that animal companion progression in epic levels SUUUUCK
Koala Kong - Today at 2:57 AM
how about them prices nowadays because of the old new coin pickup?
TheVandals - Today at 2:57 AM
And that's what the tumble/spellcraft/umd dump does is it basically gives you something, but lets you avoid paying most of the cost for it.
Hunter548 - Today at 2:57 AM
You need scarcity except for when you're talking about things that are necessities
TheVandals - Today at 2:57 AM
And so you remove scarcity from the picture.
Hunter548 - Today at 2:57 AM
like
HOWEVER you make taking bard levels for UMD harder to do
people are still going to do it
Miaou - Today at 2:57 AM
UMD~
Hunter548 - Today at 2:57 AM
because playing a meleer without UMD is stupid
TheVandals - Today at 2:58 AM
Like, imagine if things were the way they were meant to be, and you were a fighter with 4 skill points a level, and you actually had to cross-class, or take 5 or 6 levels of bard in order to max all those skills.
Then you would actually have a tough choice to make, because you'd actually have to give up something valuable.
But right now what you give up for that dump is jack shit compared to what you gain.
And that is a huuuuuuuge problem.
Hunter548 - Today at 2:58 AM
...no, because that's
Not a huge choice.
Cell - Today at 2:58 AM
okay hang on
everyone pause a moment i got a question
Hunter548 - Today at 2:58 AM
People would just swap to skilldumping with 5 bard levels with a smile on their face
same - Today at 2:58 AM
whereas a ranger gives up animal companion levels, spell durations, favored enemies, ect ect.

If you consider what you're giving up in 3 levels of ranger, in a ranger-heavy build, an actual detriment (especially compared to what you gain from the dump) then you're Wrong. Further, the Fighter doesn't have any of those things anyway - no stealth, favoured enemy, BoE, animal companion, spells
Hunter548 - Today at 2:58 AM
because you need umd
Cell - Today at 2:59 AM
what do i lose if i go 23 ranger instead of 27 or 30?
Hunter548 - Today at 2:59 AM
1 FE progression
2 if you're talking 23 vs 30
Cell - Today at 2:59 AM
this is a question aimed at @TheVandals
Hunter548 - Today at 2:59 AM
bonus feats too
Koala Kong - Today at 2:59 AM
playing melee w/o umd is basically like killing yourself
TheVandals - Today at 2:59 AM
Losing 3 levels of animal companion and 3-6 levels of spell duration is frankly enough imo. What does the fighter give up? 1 bonus feat and like 12 hp.
Big woopty tits.
Luna/InTheFlesh - Today at 3:00 AM
TITS
Cell - Today at 3:00 AM
okay, let me correct that
same - Today at 3:00 AM
Re-read my paragraph.
Cell - Today at 3:00 AM
the animal companion progression in epic levels is hot garbage, theres about 1-3 ab difference in the entire 10 levels progression
same - Today at 3:00 AM
The fighter gives up little, but also has None Of That Extra Shit Either
TheVandals - Today at 3:00 AM
Re-paste it, you guys need to go 1 at a time.
Hunter548 - Today at 3:00 AM
>3-6 levels of spell duration on a non-primary caster that's not really going to give a shit about the duration anyways
same - Today at 3:00 AM
Fuck
Koala Kong - Today at 3:00 AM
okay
same - Today at 3:00 AM
If you consider what you're giving up in 3 levels of ranger, in a ranger-heavy build, an actual detriment (especially compared to what you gain from the dump) then you're Wrong. Further, the Fighter doesn't have any of those things anyway - no stealth, favoured enemy, BoE, animal companion, spells
Koala Kong - Today at 3:00 AM
literally convinced
Hunter548 - Today at 3:00 AM
>3 levels of awful animal companions
Cell - Today at 3:00 AM
3-6 rounds/hours is not really worth 2 fighter feats, aka (epic) weapon spec, 6 damage
TheVandals - Today at 3:00 AM
Btw it's not like my whole argument hung on that ranger comment anyway.
Cell - Today at 3:01 AM
and the HP of ranger and fighter is the same.
same - Today at 3:01 AM
"guys don't just focus on how awful this one argument is i have many other awful arguments to nitpick"
TheVandals - Today at 3:01 AM
Not that I consider it a weak one. I'd rather give up 12 hp and a single bonus feat than 3 levels of animal companion. Also,
Cell - Today at 3:01 AM
fuck same
ur
cynic today nigga
TheVandals - Today at 3:01 AM
with the ranger buffs now, the 3 levels = 1 point of enhancement bonus on blade thirst.
same - Today at 3:01 AM
Do I have to paste it again?
TheVandals - Today at 3:01 AM
Anyway, the ranger thing is not important.
Hunter548 - Today at 3:01 AM
shame blade thirst is still a terrible spell
same - Today at 3:01 AM
That ranger is NEVER MEANT to go toe to toe with a fighter ANYWAY
Cell - Today at 3:01 AM
blade thirst is gonna be borderline OP next update by itself.
same - Today at 3:02 AM
They have amazing stealth, flanking companion, potential for traps
TheVandals - Today at 3:02 AM
what is important is that the skill dump allows you to get something very strong, and pay very little for it, no matter what build you are, ranger or fighter.
Hunter548 - Today at 3:02 AM
what even is it going to do
Cell - Today at 3:02 AM
+4 enhancement at level 21 or so
stacks on anything
Hunter548 - Today at 3:02 AM
oh, sexy
Cell - Today at 3:02 AM
no keen however.
and lasts hours
Hunter548 - Today at 3:02 AM
mmm
cast on keen'd mdamask, pretend to have 20 fighter levels?
TheVandals - Today at 3:02 AM
I just came off a level 21 ranger after playing a level 26 fighter beforehand.
Cell - Today at 3:02 AM
or, or, cast it on a custom enchanted weapon
like keen uni and skills or some shit
pretend to be a pre-nerf fighter
same - Today at 3:03 AM
yeah, that'd work better
TheVandals - Today at 3:03 AM
Trust me, even after the ranger update, 95% of ranger's supposed perks are just a pain in the ass.
Including blade thirst.
Cell - Today at 3:03 AM
thats because ranger is ass right now.
its still being worked on
Hunter548 - Today at 3:03 AM
Right, vandals, but you're missing the point that the skilldump isn't ubiquitous because it's easy to do it at low cost, it's ubiquitous because it's compulsory
Queen of Ferrets - Today at 3:03 AM
CAN WE TALK ABOUT THIS IN BUILDS AND MECHANICS PLEASE
Thanks
Cell - Today at 3:03 AM
fine whatever
Queen of Ferrets - Today at 3:03 AM
👌 👌
Cell - Today at 3:03 AM
moving to #buildsnmechanics
same - Today at 3:03 AM
It's compulsory because of irreversible (without hiring and paying a literal dev team) facts about Arelith.
TheVandals - Today at 3:04 AM
Right, let's not get diverted from my main point though. You guys asked how I'd fix rogue. One guy in that thread had it right. First, you gotta fix the skill dump, then you gotta give rogue a little love on top if it offensively, then you gotta close that HP gap. Hunter, what you seem to have missed in that thread is that
We have artificially inflated the gap.
Cell - Today at 3:04 AM
#buildsnmechanics click that vandals
TheVandals - Today at 3:04 AM
We have made a choice to make the low-hp builds even shittier.
And that was the wrong choice.
same - Today at 3:04 AM
Vandals, purple names are mods
Get in the fucking room
Cell - Today at 3:04 AM
shit post here
Hunter548 - Today at 3:04 AM
@TheVandals  you need access to haste, to lesser breach, to improved invisibility, to barkskin, to see invis, etc.
same - Today at 3:05 AM
First, you gotta fix the skill dump,

Well we've addressed that. That it cannot happen.
Ergo, none of your other suggestions can
Hunter548 - Today at 3:05 AM
Rogues aren't shitty because everyone else has UMD, rogues are shitty because dex builds are kind of bad
TheVandals - Today at 3:05 AM
How can it not happen?
You can't just say 'Oh, it can't happen' and then call that an argument.
same - Today at 3:06 AM
It requires a colossal- COLOSSAL -revamping of the module.
TheVandals - Today at 3:06 AM
Okay, now, support that statement with evidence.
Cell - Today at 3:06 AM
youd have to essential overhaul the entire balance of the server
Hunter548 - Today at 3:06 AM
and the tricks they have just aren't and never have been that impressive short of stacking of epic traps
TheVandals - Today at 3:06 AM
Why?
Why would you have to overhaul everything/
Hunter548 - Today at 3:06 AM
because you need UMD on arelith
this has been a trueism of playing here for 10+ years
TheVandals - Today at 3:06 AM
nerfing the skill dump doesn't = removing access to umd.
Cell - Today at 3:06 AM
it would null 90% or more of the existing builds that dont suck.
same - Today at 3:06 AM
Because monsters are far too fucking hard on Arelith to be fought as a meleer without UMD
"make them less hard"
well friend, there we touch on my earlier point
Hunter548 - Today at 3:07 AM
Okay, but then how do you fix it? Make it require 5 bard levels?
same - Today at 3:07 AM
which is rebuilding 500+ monsters
Hunter548 - Today at 3:07 AM
Congrats, now the meme build du jour is fighter 18 bard 5 wm 7
Cell - Today at 3:07 AM
^
Hunter548 - Today at 3:07 AM
people slightly adjust their builds for more UMD-class levels, and life continues on
make it require 7 levels? people go to fighter 15 bard 8 wm 7
TheVandals - Today at 3:08 AM
Yes, like I said, the solution is a multi-faceted one. This is a game involving a ton of interconnected variables. You want a simple solution to a complex problem, which is something you'll never get.
Hunter548 - Today at 3:08 AM
10? wew lad at this point are you sure you're not removing access to UMD?
...so
Cell - Today at 3:08 AM
which is something you'll never get.
Hunter548 - Today at 3:08 AM
literally "I'm unable to explain my point"
Cell - Today at 3:08 AM
well then i think weve reached the conclusion here
its impossible to do that without mucking everything up
same - Today at 3:08 AM
Yes, like I said, the solution is a multi-faceted one. This is a game involving a ton of interconnected variables. You want a simple solution to a complex problem, which is something you'll never get.

... so yeah, it's impossible. The level of work required from the devs infinitely, infinitely outweighs what they will see as benefits. Convincing them of any benefits will be hard enough.
Shalvenay - Today at 3:08 AM
you're complaining about a problem that's rooted in a fundamental design decision/mistake of D&D 3.x itself
aka caster supremacy
Hunter548 - Today at 3:08 AM
^
Cell - Today at 3:09 AM
...most top builds arent even caster anymore
same - Today at 3:09 AM
The fact they probably disagree with