GrenadeBalance

<Bobbo>  And grenades are still op a bit, imo. :P
<quin>  at least it doesn't go slideshow like other engines
<quin>  really? they're the weakest they've ever been now
<quin>  they're supposed to be a little OP
<quin>  livefire just highlights it because of all the spawns
<Bobbo>  You can cook them, and basically all the maps are small.
<quin>  that's the point, i'm not about to change a mechanic we've had since inception
<quin>  it's more about the number of grenade spawns
<Bobbo>  Cooking allows you to control where and when it explodes, they still deal a lot of damage, and RE maps either small enough or zoned off enough to allow them to be... Well beast.
<quin>  you'd think the same of the rocket if there were 50 of them around
<Bobbo>  If all the maps were on the scale of say... Tribal, it'd be okay.
<Bobbo>  rocket is op too, but that's for different reasons. :P
<quin>  rocket never used to exist
<quin>  tbh, there's lots of grenade spawns because i like them
<Bobbo>  A lot of it is the synergy between game types though. :3
<quin>  if anything, it should just be a revision of the maps in question
<quin>  maybe a little tweaking of the timer
<quin>  push it to 45 secs, maybe make the rocket 90 secs
<quin>  will throw me off a lot though
<quin>  i've learned a perfect traversal pattern for livefire :P
<quin>  you make the grenades any weaker and it will just have the opposite effect on people
<quin>  and then next release i'll be told to make them stronger again
<Bobbo>  It's not about making them weaker, it's the cooking part. XD
<quin>  because thats what people expect of explosions in action games
<Bobbo>  The explosion it creates is too powerful for the size of the map and the number of players to be controlled by the user like that.
<quin>  the cooking has always been part of the strategy
<quin>  you're asking to change something that has been there since i implemented grenades in the first place
<quin>  i'm talking v0.3 here
<Bobbo>  Larger maps and large team games negate it partially, because cooking is only useful at close range. But on a map like Livefire, which overall has a large area but it's zoned off into different sections, it's too much. :3
<quin>  but thats the precise reason a vote on livefire is so popular
<Bobbo>  Because it's a good map, it's non symmetrical and has lots of ways to 'trick' players.
<quin>  nah, you take out all those nade spawns and you watch
<Bobbo>  (assuming you do a no radar game, which just makes all the more fun when there's <4 of you).
<quin>  well it depends on the focus you want to take
<Bobbo>  Because grenades are generally op and that'll get them more kills for easiness (even if it does involve basically killing yourself).
<quin>  the small group of people vs the public at large
<quin>  i tune RE toward pub games
<quin>  that audience generally likes instant gratification
<Bobbo>  Your not going to get a public game if everyone is getting pissed off because their team mates are killing them with grenades.
<quin>  i don't see it harming us at the moment
<quin>  if anything, that is the reason people have come
<Bobbo>  What team mate killing? XD
<quin>  "boom! explosions yay"
<Bobbo>  I'm not saying grenades are bad.
<Bobbo>  I'm saying the cooking synergy with map size and game types is.
<quin>  you do realise that map sizes like livefire are generally unsuitable for RE?
<quin>  unless you have the map layout down, you run into walls an obstacles a lot
<quin>  the game was designed more around maps like deli, etc
<quin>  smaller maps really should be played with <6 players
<Bobbo>  Yes.
<quin>  but last time i tried to enforce that failed
<Bobbo>  I realise that, because of the explosives. :P
<Bobbo>  Livefire is great for duels and ffa games with about, as you said, under 6 people.
<quin>  you can't really determine who is going to quit between intermission and the next fight
<quin>  so if you enforce large map sizes, and half the server quits
<quin>  you're stuck on a big empty map
<quin>  you'd hope people would be saner with their choices
<quin>  but this is a community that plays instagib bomberball on dutility 20 times a day
<Bobbo>  Sanity in democracy where anyone can vote? You must be mad. XD
<quin>  you have no idea how many threads intertwine to form the decisions i make
<quin>  it is a constant balancing act
<quin>  and i feel like i'm doing it on the tip of a hair
<Bobbo>  Even some of the larger maps have areas where grenades are vastly more powerful than they are normally, though, like the pusher/water pool room on Deli.
<Hirato>  why not divide the maps into "small" "medium" and "large" pools? and then say, a 'small' population can pibk from smal ladn medium maps, and a medium pool from them all?
<Hirato>  or is that a bit too involved?
<quin>  Hirato: smallmaps, mediummaps, largemaps already exists
<Hirato>  heh
<Bobbo>  Hirato : Because of the same reason q said earlier, people could leave (or join) during the voting.
<quin>  as i said, i tried to enforce map choices by size but fell into the "mass quit exodus leaving people playing on a large empty map"
<Hirato>  hmmm.... alas
<quin>  and pretty much works just like you said
<quin>  grapefruit think alike i guess
<Hirato>  please, I'm not pink and bitter :M
<Bobbo>  At least you're not a banana.
<quin>  what kind of grapefruit are you eating?
<Hirato>  ring-ring-ring-ring!
<Bobbo>  Unzip the yellow coating and eat the white fleshy bits inside.
<Bobbo>  quin : Maybe a pink grapefruit?
<quin>  i find the regular ones quite sweet and mildly bitter :P
<Bobbo>  quin : What if the cooking controlled how fast you threw the grenade instead of how long it's lifespan is?
<quin>  you're still removing a fundamental element present in the last 10 iterations of this game
<quin>  i think you should maybe present the question to the community and see who they agree with :P