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  1. [2011-07-27 11:02:51] <DML> Sort of where I had it where I was more or less retelling the story of Starcraft, but using professional skateboarding as a metaphor.
  2. [2011-07-27 11:02:58] <Aster> ....
  3. [2011-07-27 11:03:01] <Aster> So...
  4. [2011-07-27 11:03:03] <NordRonnoc> The fanfic is called Transitus Universitas, which is Latin for "crossing the world."
  5. [2011-07-27 11:03:07] <Aster> So...
  6. [2011-07-27 11:03:15] <NordRonnoc> *worlds
  7. [2011-07-27 11:03:20] <DML> So it was something like this - Sarah Kerrigan fought to get her way to the top until her skateboarding label sold her out.
  8. [2011-07-27 11:03:29] <Aster> Kerrigan fell off the half-pipe of humanity?
  9. [2011-07-27 11:03:39] <Aster> and into the wipeout of Zergdom?
  10. [2011-07-27 11:03:48] <DML> And then she went pro, sold out, and went into producing commercial pop music.
  11. [2011-07-27 11:03:50] <Aster> ... *is shot*
  12. [2011-07-27 11:03:59] <DML> Using skateboarding as an image.
  13. [2011-07-27 11:04:13] <Aster> ... surreal. ._.
  14. [2011-07-27 11:04:40] <DML> And it was about how Nova and Jim Raynor unseated her by attempting to bring real skateboarding back. It was a bittersweet ending.
  15. [2011-07-27 11:04:50] <DML> In the end they failed, and Skateboarding became a hipster thing.
  16. [2011-07-27 11:05:00] <DML> But Sarah got her comeuppance when she turned forty.
  17. [2011-07-27 11:05:02] <gaijinguy> Define failure.
  18. [2011-07-27 11:05:14] <DML> They didn't manage to unseat her pop empire. By that point, she was too mainstream.
  19. [2011-07-27 11:05:27] <DML> She started her own video game franchise, starring her as the titular character.
  20. [2011-07-27 11:05:38] <DML> "Sarah Kerrigan's Pro Skater."
  21. [2011-07-27 11:06:11] <Aster> And Mengsk spent the whole time creating Hot Topic skate styles to unseat the skater culture by hijacking it with faux-image 'tweenage punk' and stupid useless sneakers that won't stay tied.
  22. [2011-07-27 11:06:16] <DML> Yes.
  23. [2011-07-27 11:06:19] <DML> That's it EXACTLY Aster.
  24. [2011-07-27 11:06:28] <Aster> ... I was joking.
  25. [2011-07-27 11:06:29] <Aster> ._.
  26. [2011-07-27 11:06:42] <Aster> Is that.... right?
  27. [2011-07-27 11:06:46] <Aster> ._.
  28. [2011-07-27 11:06:49] <DML> You're about halfway there.
  29. [2011-07-27 11:07:09] <Aster> pfftt
  30. [2011-07-27 11:07:10] <DML> Like I said though, it was a very bittersweet ending. Jim stayed true to his morals, but never got famous.
  31. [2011-07-27 11:07:24] <Aster> ... that's the most effort put into a crackfic I have ever heard of.
  32. [2011-07-27 11:07:26] <gaijinguy> I can't decide if this is the pop culture equivalent of a religious allegory or not.
  33. [2011-07-27 11:07:32] <NordRonnoc> That was a hell of a crackfic.
  34. [2011-07-27 11:07:36] * Aster really hates the stupid useless sneakers that won't stay tied though...
  35. [2011-07-27 11:07:41] <NordRonnoc> What were you smoking?!
  36. [2011-07-27 11:07:52] <DML> Sarah only got her comeuppance 14 years later, because of course, then at that point, the trends would have changed,
  37. [2011-07-27 11:08:04] <DML> and a change in video game technology made her video game franchise obsolete.
  38. [2011-07-27 11:08:15] <DML> I have no clue and I can't remember.
  39. [2011-07-27 11:08:42] <DML> GG - it was supposed to be a metaphorical re-telling of Starcraft's storyline.
  40. [2011-07-27 11:09:00] <DML> Instead of guns and blasters and space aliens though, it was skateboards and pop music.
  41. [2011-07-27 11:09:05] <gaijinguy> So where does the "murdering everyone" thing come in?
  42. [2011-07-27 11:09:16] <DML> She does a 'market flood.'
  43. [2011-07-27 11:09:45] <gaijinguy> Or the "plot being over backwards to give you the most down, sequel-baiting ending possible?"
  44. [2011-07-27 11:09:47] <DML> Y'know what I mean, right? Undercutting competition by undermining or diluting the brand or the trend with a mass-produced version.
  45. [2011-07-27 11:10:06] <gaijinguy> Brands can only be diluted from within-
  46. [2011-07-27 11:10:06] <DML> Ok, that I think I might've missed because I worked on this a long time ago, before SCII.
  47. [2011-07-27 11:10:31] <gaijinguy> you'd need to buy the right to the brand itself, at which point they would already, by definition, have "sold out."
  48. [2011-07-27 11:11:10] <DML> Well... in that case would signing a larger deal with a bigger media company count?
  49. [2011-07-27 11:11:19] <DML> Mind you this was a long time ago.
  50. [2011-07-27 11:11:30] <gaijinguy> Depends on the terms.
  51. [2011-07-27 11:11:33] <DML> Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 was released when... like before y2k?
  52. [2011-07-27 11:11:45] <gaijinguy> PCF sold out when they signed on with Epic-
  53. [2011-07-27 11:12:05] <DML> Ok, in the year two thousand.
  54. [2011-07-27 11:12:05] <gaijinguy> but that was because Epic bought them part and parcel, where previously they'd been doing contract work for them.
  55. [2011-07-27 11:12:26] <DML> It was sometime after that because I had material from Starcraft Ghost there, I'm going to guess around 2003-2004.
  56. [2011-07-27 11:13:02] <gaijinguy> Didn't Starcaft Ghost not get actually released?
  57. [2011-07-27 11:13:21] <NordRonnoc> Correct.
  58. [2011-07-27 11:13:22] <DML> Never got released, ever, but there was a lot of hype over it.
  59. [2011-07-27 11:13:41] <DML> Especially back then.
  60. [2011-07-27 11:14:12] <Aster> ... and so the fanboys raged
  61. [2011-07-27 11:15:07] -->| Bryn (6296ea02@ircip4.mibbit.com) has joined #PPC
  62. [2011-07-27 11:15:09] <DML> Anyways... if I can find that old one, it'll be up for grabs.
  63. [2011-07-27 11:15:14] <DML> Howdy Bryn.
  64. [2011-07-27 11:16:08] <gaijinguy> Hey Bryn.
  65. [2011-07-27 11:16:13] <Bryn> hi
  66. [2011-07-27 11:16:18] <NordRonnoc> Afternoon!
  67. [2011-07-27 11:16:31] <gaijinguy> I remember writing a Buffy continuation.
  68. [2011-07-27 11:16:41] * Bryn does all of the appropriate greetings
  69. [2011-07-27 11:16:45] <gaijinguy> (Thank Christ I never finished it, or it might be online, haunting me to this day.)
  70. [2011-07-27 11:17:08] <Aster> I dunno DML, that sounds too honestly thought out to be horrid!fic.
  71. [2011-07-27 11:17:09] |<-- Jefford has left irc.blitzed.org (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
  72. [2011-07-27 11:17:23] <gaijinguy> Depends.
  73. [2011-07-27 11:17:31] <Aster> Most badfic is bad because the author does not know or care what they produce.
  74. [2011-07-27 11:17:39] <DML> Yeah. At that stage of the game I was still trying to understand writing but I was still very careful about observing characterization, and I paid attention to mechanics.
  75. [2011-07-27 11:17:43] <gaijinguy> If things happen that make no sense outside of the metaphor, then it could still be quite bad.
  76. [2011-07-27 11:18:02] <Miah> Hi Bryn
  77. [2011-07-27 11:18:25] <DML> It was so far detached from Starcraft I could file all the serial numbers off using CTRL-F and it would probably stand on its own as a skateboarding story.
  78. [2011-07-27 11:18:42] |<-- NordRonnoc has left irc.blitzed.org (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  79. [2011-07-27 11:19:00] * Aster eats cherries.
  80. [2011-07-27 11:19:04] <DML> About selling out, getting to the top, and discovering it's lonely up there. Kinda preachy looking back, but hey, that's what I thought back then.
  81. [2011-07-27 11:19:19] <Aster> Cantelope. Eh. Melon. Blah. Cherries. YEAHHHHHHH
  82. [2011-07-27 11:19:28] <gaijinguy> I suppose.
  83. [2011-07-27 11:19:35] <Aster> ^also, DML, this.
  84. [2011-07-27 11:19:38] <gaijinguy> But what was the ideal outcome?
  85. [2011-07-27 11:19:48] <Aster> Most writing is done from a 'what I thought then' idea.
  86. [2011-07-27 11:19:50] <DML> What was the ideal outcome? Of what, the plot? The story?
  87. [2011-07-27 11:20:03] <gaijinguy> I'm trying to understand the whole "selling out" thing.
  88. [2011-07-27 11:20:35] <gaijinguy> What did these people want? To get paid for doing this?
  89. [2011-07-27 11:20:58] <DML> Hey, it's not like I actually thought about the other side of that when I was in ninth grade.
  90. [2011-07-27 11:21:06] <Aster> Part of being an artist in any way is getting money out of your image.
  91. [2011-07-27 11:21:12] |<-- Phobos|work has left irc.blitzed.org (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  92. [2011-07-27 11:21:26] <Aster> Changing your image to get money instead of selling who you really are, is looked on as selling out.
  93. [2011-07-27 11:21:38] <DML> As far as I was concerned back then I felt it was way better to remain doing the music and acts you liked doing,
  94. [2011-07-27 11:21:51] <Aster> It's the classic buisness-logic vs art-logic conflict.
  95. [2011-07-27 11:21:52] <DML> (ok, I still do)
  96. [2011-07-27 11:21:53] <gaijinguy> Aster: And if your original image doesn't sell? Just be broke?
  97. [2011-07-27 11:22:16] * Aster shrugs. "Lots of poor artists out there, eh?"
  98. [2011-07-27 11:22:18] <DML> Versus deliberately trying to copycat other artists to ride on their bandwagon.
  99. [2011-07-27 11:22:39] <gaijinguy> I'm all for doing what you love-
  100. [2011-07-27 11:23:00] <gaijinguy> but if there's no market, there's no market, and you can't make a career out of it.
  101. [2011-07-27 11:23:02] <DML> On the flipside, I was pretty careful to show that sometimes, hard work just isn't enough, even if your act is good.
  102. [2011-07-27 11:23:12] <DML> Yep, I did show that too.
  103. [2011-07-27 11:23:33] <DML> But again, it could still be full of holes and it could be more recent logic talking.
  104. [2011-07-27 11:23:53] <DML> After all, "never trust the Word of God."
  105. [2011-07-27 11:24:17] <gaijinguy> DML: Are you talking about death of the artist?
  106. [2011-07-27 11:25:09] <DML> If we're still talking that old implausible crossover I wrote,
  107. [2011-07-27 11:25:40] -->| Phobos|work (4398a883@ircip4.mibbit.com) has joined #PPC
  108. [2011-07-27 11:25:42] <DML> I'm talking that sometimes, even hard work and talent won't get you anywhere, as I showed by having the more genuine, down-to-earth types never get famous.
  109. [2011-07-27 11:26:01] <gaijinguy> (It doesn't sound like a crossover, but a retelling in a different context- a very strange high-school AU.)
  110. [2011-07-27 11:26:02] <DML> If we're talking in a more general sense,
  111. [2011-07-27 11:26:19] <DML> Hmm. Maybe you're right about that there, crossover could be the wrong term.
  112. [2011-07-27 11:26:33] <gaijinguy> Hey Phobos.
  113. [2011-07-27 11:26:34] <DML> Er, you are right there, my bad >_<.
  114. [2011-07-27 11:26:36] <DML> Hey Phobos.
  115. [2011-07-27 11:27:07] <Phobos|work> Hello, all.
  116. [2011-07-27 11:27:10] <DML> I'm looking through my old archives right now, and this looks bad though -
  117. [2011-07-27 11:27:16] <DML> Back then, I still used 3.5" floppy disks.
  118. [2011-07-27 11:27:29] <gaijinguy> DML: Sure, often hard work and talent won't get you anywhere. That's just life.
  119. [2011-07-27 11:27:34] <DML> Yeah.
  120. [2011-07-27 11:27:51] <gaijinguy> Especially if the topic is skateboarding, how many people actually earn a living doing that?
  121. [2011-07-27 11:27:53] <DML> Alright. I think some of these disks could have deteriorated. I'll grab what I can.
  122. [2011-07-27 11:28:16] <DML> Not many. I used to skate a lot too, never was all that great at it,
  123. [2011-07-27 11:28:51] <DML> a couple people I knew were sponsored, but most of the time sponsorship is just a local store saying "Hey, you're really good. We'll give you a discount when you come by, now go out and tell everyone about us, and hand out these panphlets."
  124. [2011-07-27 11:29:19] <DML> That's /it./
  125. [2011-07-27 11:29:39] <gaijinguy> It's their call, if shilling for them is worth the discount.
  126. [2011-07-27 11:30:52] <gaijinguy> What would people want, though? The store saying, "Hey, you're really good, we'll give you a discount when you come by?"
  127. [2011-07-27 11:31:36] <DML> Ideally, if you're going professional, you'll be touring, trying to promote your label, showing off their brand and their equipment, running tutorials, passing on the word.
  128. [2011-07-27 11:31:43] <DML> So it's just that - on a bigger scale?
  129. [2011-07-27 11:31:53] <gaijinguy> Exactly.
  130. [2011-07-27 11:31:58] <gaijinguy> Everyone gets something.
  131. [2011-07-27 11:32:22] <gaijinguy> More to the point: everyone gets paid. Just not necessarily in money.
  132. [2011-07-27 11:33:07] * gaijinguy is a Vorta :P
  133. [2011-07-27 11:33:17] <DML> The one thing I really don't like is when people try to use the skateboarding image itself. Sure, there's definitely a trendy side to it, the shoes, the clothes, all that, but I've felt that the sport comes first.
  134. [2011-07-27 11:33:38] <DML> Using it as an image to promote something that has nothing to do with the sport just rubs me the wrong way.
  135. [2011-07-27 11:33:59] <gaijinguy> Define "the skateboarding image."
  136. [2011-07-27 11:34:18] * July eats cream of wheat with added fresh strawberry slices and whey protein to make it taste sweeter.
  137. [2011-07-27 11:34:19] <July> T_T
  138. [2011-07-27 11:34:24] <gaijinguy> Projection of a subculture? A particular clothing type?
  139. [2011-07-27 11:34:49] <gaijinguy> It's not like there's teams, or jerseys.
  140. [2011-07-27 11:35:00] <gaijinguy> July: sounds tasty.
  141. [2011-07-27 11:35:08] <July> It really isn't.
  142. [2011-07-27 11:35:14] <DML> The image of rebellious, chic, and dextrous athletes that have practised and spent time and dedication to become good at what they do. It's sending a message along the lines of "Listen to this music that has nothing to do with that, and you'll fit in with this crowd."
  143. [2011-07-27 11:35:41] <DML> That I didn't like.
  144. [2011-07-27 11:35:59] * Aster eats cherries.
  145. [2011-07-27 11:36:15] <gaijinguy> So it's promising people the thrills of participating in an athletic subculture without actually doing any work?
  146. [2011-07-27 11:36:26] <July> Ahaha. http://oldspicelove.tumblr.com/ Some langauge.
  147. [2011-07-27 11:36:32] <July> *language
  148. [2011-07-27 11:36:45] <DML> Yeah. That was more or less what Kerrigan was doing in that fanfic.
  149. [2011-07-27 11:37:05] <DML> Good skaters, I respect - no skater has gotten good at the sport without taking a lot of time, effort, practise, and a lot of falls.
  150. [2011-07-27 11:37:22] <Aster> ... Wow
  151. [2011-07-27 11:37:27] <DML> There's also a kind of culture to it as well.
  152. [2011-07-27 11:37:35] <Aster> I am so happy equestrian sports were never rebellious and a 'scene'
  153. [2011-07-27 11:37:38] <DML> Like, when you land a trick the first time, you're allowed to say "Hey sweet! Look at that!"
  154. [2011-07-27 11:37:47] <Aster> because you could just replace 'good skaters' with 'good riders'
  155. [2011-07-27 11:37:47] <DML> But you know what we call people who do that EVERY time they land a trick?
  156. [2011-07-27 11:37:51] <DML> We call 'em "Beamers."
  157. [2011-07-27 11:37:52] <gaijinguy> Aster: They're too expensive.
  158. [2011-07-27 11:37:57] <Aster> Is true.
  159. [2011-07-27 11:38:22] <gaijinguy> There's a reason the IRS looks reeeeeelly closely at anything horse-related on your taxes.
  160. [2011-07-27 11:39:05] <Aster> Well yeah.
  161. [2011-07-27 11:39:06] <DML> "Nobody likes a beamer" or "Don't be a beamer" - anyone ever heard that? More or less, it's OK to show off your stuff, but be fair about it, more or less.
  162. [2011-07-27 11:39:31] <Aster> But, Gai-- car modding and such has a 'scene' and it's just as expensive.
  163. [2011-07-27 11:39:45] <July> @_@ http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lopnr3DULC1qjlsipo2_250.gif
  164. [2011-07-27 11:39:51] <Aster> Equestrian activities have a culture, but no 'scene'
  165. [2011-07-27 11:39:51] <DML> So, when I wrote the fanfic (and I still do, although maybe not as passionately as I did before),
  166. [2011-07-27 11:39:52] <gaijinguy> DML: I don't know enough about the subculture to add anything useful. So Kerrigan is a pro skateboarder who sells her soul via tie-in products?
  167. [2011-07-27 11:40:22] <gaijinguy> Aster: Except that horses come in discrete, expensive units. Car mods don't.
  168. [2011-07-27 11:40:32] <Miah> ...Why would anyone want to own a Mother Theresa doll?
  169. [2011-07-27 11:40:36] <Aster> is true.
  170. [2011-07-27 11:40:38] <DML> Yeah. That was what the fanfic was about. After she got big enough, she stabbed her friends in the back by using skateboarding to promote her own lines of products that had NOTHING to do with what got her famous in the first place, and in doing so, dilute the entire sport to a trend.
  171. [2011-07-27 11:40:38] <Aster> Hard to rice a horse.
  172. [2011-07-27 11:40:52] <gaijinguy> Miah: Christopher Hitchens would. (It would be a voodoo doll, but the point stands.)
  173. [2011-07-27 11:41:10] <Miah> Who?
  174. [2011-07-27 11:41:11] <July> Not that hard.
  175. [2011-07-27 11:41:43] <July> Just add neon color LED lights to the belt for the saddle that secures it under the horse.
  176. [2011-07-27 11:41:45] <gaijinguy> Car modding can be as mild as new spark plugs and as extreme as Pimp My Ride.
  177. [2011-07-27 11:41:48] <DML> In the fanfic, that got her rich and gave her enough money to start her own franchise of Sarah-Kerrigan branded products, and at the same time, lock everyone out.
  178. [2011-07-27 11:42:05] <gaijinguy> DML: Lock everyone out? How?
  179. [2011-07-27 11:42:08] <July> Use dye to paint flames on the horse's flanks.
  180. [2011-07-27 11:42:21] <Aster> ... poor horse...
  181. [2011-07-27 11:42:21] <July> Put glitter on the hooves.
  182. [2011-07-27 11:42:27] <gaijinguy> Miah: Think Richard Dawkins, only well-spoken and with a sense of humor.
  183. [2011-07-27 11:42:45] <gaijinguy> I wonder: can you tattoo a horse?
  184. [2011-07-27 11:42:52] <July> Branding.
  185. [2011-07-27 11:42:53] <Aster> ... No. But there are other ways to mark them
  186. [2011-07-27 11:42:57] <Aster> Like branding
  187. [2011-07-27 11:43:00] <Aster> and freeze-marking.
  188. [2011-07-27 11:43:08] <Aster> Often used for identification.
  189. [2011-07-27 11:43:14] <Aster> branding less so
  190. [2011-07-27 11:43:15] <DML> Alright - my logic back then was that if the brand was sufficiently diluted, then she'd effectively be able to command the monopoly. Anyone else who'd be in that market would have to compete with her directly.
  191. [2011-07-27 11:43:17] <Aster> because it's painful
  192. [2011-07-27 11:43:40] <gaijinguy> What do you mean, "if the brand was sufficiently diluted?" She IS the brand.
  193. [2011-07-27 11:43:47] <Aster> Makes sense, DML. The trend starter has advantage.
  194. [2011-07-27 11:43:49] * July presents this to whoever loves seafood the best. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-00O8qpdde7c/Ti9BeGsUPTI/AAAAAAAAB9s/32-Vn4t9Kkc/w300/nomnomnom.gif
  195. [2011-07-27 11:43:50] <Aster> Like Ugg boots.
  196. [2011-07-27 11:43:59] <Aster> Hey! I linked that!
  197. [2011-07-27 11:44:00] <DML> Yes. So she commands the market. The trend starter has the home field advantage. They can write the rules.
  198. [2011-07-27 11:44:10] <gaijinguy> Not necessarily.
  199. [2011-07-27 11:44:11] <DML> Anyone trying to break in has to deal with /them./
  200. [2011-07-27 11:44:13] <Aster> I love seafood the best.
  201. [2011-07-27 11:44:25] <Aster> my mom actually linked me to that.
  202. [2011-07-27 11:44:26] <gaijinguy> Yes, they start the trends, but they don't have control over the technical aspects.
  203. [2011-07-27 11:44:27] <Miah> Its...its...alive?
  204. [2011-07-27 11:44:39] <gaijinguy> If someone builds a better skateboard, they aren't beholden to them.
  205. [2011-07-27 11:44:43] <Aster> no.
  206. [2011-07-27 11:44:52] <Aster> It's just having a reaction to the sodium so its legs move
  207. [2011-07-27 11:44:58] <DML> Yep, but they don't really need to. They've got momentum and buying power - and that's the thing. Someone really 'can't' build just a better board with wheels on it.
  208. [2011-07-27 11:45:10] <DML> I mean people HAVE built boards out of carbon fibre,
  209. [2011-07-27 11:45:11] <DML> titanium,
  210. [2011-07-27 11:45:35] <Miah> It's still highly gross.
  211. [2011-07-27 11:46:13] <Aster> Quite!
  212. [2011-07-27 11:46:21] <Aster> I still think squid and sushi are delicious though
  213. [2011-07-27 11:46:21] <DML> but in the end, we keep going back to 7-ply "Rock" maple supported by two cast aluminum trucks with integral mild steel axles holding two polyurethane wheels between 40 and 60mm each.
  214. [2011-07-27 11:46:31] <gaijinguy> So the conflict in the story is that she got famous by selling out and stopping everyone else from selling out?
  215. [2011-07-27 11:47:13] <Aster> No, I think the conflict is that she got famous by selling out and then was still associated with her PREVIOUS demographic,
  216. [2011-07-27 11:47:24] <Aster> thus polluting people who liked skating before with HER fans
  217. [2011-07-27 11:47:27] <Aster> that had nothing to do with it.
  218. [2011-07-27 11:47:37] <DML> Yeah, Aster's hit in on the head exactly.
  219. [2011-07-27 11:47:40] <gaijinguy> Ah.
  220. [2011-07-27 11:47:51] <Aster> Kind of like Hot Topic.
  221. [2011-07-27 11:47:59] <gaijinguy> So her decision to diversify brought undesirables into the skating scene?
  222. [2011-07-27 11:48:03] <Aster> Hot Topic markets all sorts of 'punk scene' things to kids who don't know any better...
  223. [2011-07-27 11:48:08] <Aster> when they have nothing to do with punk rock.
  224. [2011-07-27 11:48:20] <gaijinguy> Mall goths, you're talking about.
  225. [2011-07-27 11:48:20] <Aster> It capitalizes on an image rather than the real culture and the people who love it.
  226. [2011-07-27 11:48:24] <Aster> Yes.
  227. [2011-07-27 11:48:41] <Miah> A Pope doll seems a bit sacrilegious to me.
  228. [2011-07-27 11:48:43] <Aster> And the people who think hot topic/punk rock is 'goffik' and stuff.
  229. [2011-07-27 11:48:46] <DML> If by undesirables, you mean people that want the image without having to actually do the work, spend the effort, and respect the sport, yeah.
  230. [2011-07-27 11:49:46] <Aster> It's like when you say "I like punk rock' and somebody asks you where your black fishnets and your enormous pants are.
  231. [2011-07-27 11:49:46] <gaijinguy> Miah: Where are you finding these dolls? (And which Pope?)
  232. [2011-07-27 11:49:55] <Miah> John Paul II
  233. [2011-07-27 11:50:00] <Miah> on Ebay
  234. [2011-07-27 11:50:00] <DML> I can barely skate, myself, but I respect the sport and I recognize how hard people will work for that 30% discount the next time they have to replace a broken deck or cracked wheel, just so they can keep riding.
  235. [2011-07-27 11:50:03] <gaijinguy> Ooh.
  236. [2011-07-27 11:50:14] <gaijinguy> If it was one of the Medici popes, I could see that being hilarious.
  237. [2011-07-27 11:50:30] <Aster> Now the association, and the punk rock culture, is ruined because of memetic association with this new demographic that doesn't have to do with the old demographic.
  238. [2011-07-27 11:50:42] <Miah> I like punk rock
  239. [2011-07-27 11:51:05] <gaijinguy> By "ruined," you mean "has developed in a way that the original participants don't like."
  240. [2011-07-27 11:51:19] <Aster> Well, yeah.
  241. [2011-07-27 11:51:42] <Aster> Imagine if you had jelly, and somebody decided jell-o and jam could also be called 'jelly'
  242. [2011-07-27 11:51:43] <Aster> but aren't.
  243. [2011-07-27 11:51:49] <DML> Well, let's look at it this way - I think skateboarding is better as a sport, like football or basketball, not an image.
  244. [2011-07-27 11:51:52] <Aster> It's not what it was before.
  245. [2011-07-27 11:52:04] <gaijinguy> That happens a lot- as different demographics become part of trends, the trends themselves change.
  246. [2011-07-27 11:52:21] <Miah> Someone already did that Aster.
  247. [2011-07-27 11:52:24] <gaijinguy> Happens with sports, music genres, political parties. . .
  248. [2011-07-27 11:52:27] <Miah> They are known as British
  249. [2011-07-27 11:52:41] <Aster> Yeah. But the whole point is that instead of a natural change, a drift, it's a constructed and fake one.
  250. [2011-07-27 11:52:41] <Bryn> :P
  251. [2011-07-27 11:52:52] <Aster> People created Hot Topic not in response to culture,
  252. [2011-07-27 11:53:05] <gaijinguy> Define "unnatural."
  253. [2011-07-27 11:53:06] <Aster> but wholly artificially to create a culture that has no basis.
  254. [2011-07-27 11:53:18] <Aster> They got together and was like, 'What could make a lot of money?!'
  255. [2011-07-27 11:53:26] <Aster> and then linked it to something that existed already,
  256. [2011-07-27 11:53:29] <DML> Especially if the image is going to bring along people who think they know all about it, shout "do a trick!" and then aren't appreciative of how hard it is to actually ride.
  257. [2011-07-27 11:53:30] <Aster> instead of like, say,
  258. [2011-07-27 11:53:37] <gaijinguy> Because people became aware of the culture by it being sold to them as opposed to stumbling across it on a dusty shelf, it doesn't count?
  259. [2011-07-27 11:53:51] <July> Uh.
  260. [2011-07-27 11:54:09] <Aster> ... no, because it was created on a false image, Gai. There WAS none of that culture before it was created FOR PEOPLE TO BUY IT.
  261. [2011-07-27 11:54:23] <gaijinguy> Hmmm.
  262. [2011-07-27 11:54:29] <July> Incorrect, Aster.
  263. [2011-07-27 11:54:41] <DML> That's why now, I ride alone, or with people I know.
  264. [2011-07-27 11:54:56] * Aster plays a BAAAANNNTT sound and waits for the teacher to educate her.
  265. [2011-07-27 11:55:19] <gaijinguy> So Bant?
  266. [2011-07-27 11:55:38] <gaijinguy> UWG, Exalted, gave us Rafiq of the Many as an easy-mode general?
  267. [2011-07-27 11:55:52] <EF> Thehehe.
  268. [2011-07-27 11:55:58] <Aster> ._.
  269. [2011-07-27 11:56:05] <EF> I don't think so...
  270. [2011-07-27 11:56:47] <July> Hot Topic began in 1989.
  271. [2011-07-27 11:56:50] <DML> Lemme put it this way, GG. Do you have any problem with people who claim to be in the army or have served in the army when they didn't?
  272. [2011-07-27 11:56:55] <Aster> http://www.instantsfun.es/wrong
  273. [2011-07-27 11:57:12] <gaijinguy> DML: Yes.
  274. [2011-07-27 11:57:21] <July> ...Aster? What was that for?
  275. [2011-07-27 11:57:32] <Aster> The BAAANNNT sound I was talking about
  276. [2011-07-27 11:57:36] <Aster> up there ^
  277. [2011-07-27 11:57:37] <Aster> Not at you.
  278. [2011-07-27 11:57:50] <Aster> But you are doing a good job of teaching me the history of Hot Topic, so carry on.
  279. [2011-07-27 11:57:51] <gaijinguy> (Best sideboard against an Exalted deck: Royal Assassin.)
  280. [2011-07-27 11:57:52] <DML> Yeah. That's an extreme example, but that's how I feel a lot about people who claim they can ride just because they saw it in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2.
  281. [2011-07-27 11:57:54] |<-- Phobos|work has left irc.blitzed.org (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  282. [2011-07-27 11:58:14] <DML> I think THPS, as a franchise, was a mixed blessing.
  283. [2011-07-27 11:58:22] <DML> It got a lot of people into the sport. It got /me/ into the sport.
  284. [2011-07-27 11:58:44] <July> It wasn't until the late 90s - around the same time that its stock began to be publicly traded- that it began to be seen as a poser store.
  285. [2011-07-27 11:59:10] <gaijinguy> DML: There's a difference between embracing the theme park version of a culture and straight-up lying about your abilities.
  286. [2011-07-27 11:59:17] <DML> But armchair skaters are a bad, bad, bad thing - and that's exactly what they do.
  287. [2011-07-27 11:59:22] <Aster> Well yeah, July. A store can change its identity, and change its marketing and stock, just like anything else.
  288. [2011-07-27 11:59:28] <gaijinguy> Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Tara Gillespie was totally on the level.
  289. [2011-07-27 11:59:47] <DML> Sometimes the lines between that blur, a lot, GG.
  290. [2011-07-27 12:00:26] <July> But Aster, that's not what you were stating.
  291. [2011-07-27 12:00:28] <July> (12:56:20 PM) Aster: People created Hot Topic not in response to culture,
  292. [2011-07-27 12:00:28] <July> (12:56:33 PM) Aster: but wholly artificially to create a culture that has no basis.
  293. [2011-07-27 12:00:44] <July> I'm refuting your statement with the history of the store.
  294. [2011-07-27 12:00:54] <Aster> OK.
  295. [2011-07-27 12:00:58] <gaijinguy> Was she a mall goth? Sweet Christmas, yes.
  296. [2011-07-27 12:01:08] <Aster> I see this.
  297. [2011-07-27 12:01:13] <DML> Especially when people lose appreciation for the dedication of these athletes. That's what I dislike. As for the theme park culture, I roll past that nowadays, because it isn't me.
  298. [2011-07-27 12:01:26] <gaijinguy> Does that mean she is, as such, someone who claims to be able to play music? Not necessarily.
  299. [2011-07-27 12:01:28] <DML> I still feel strongly about it deep down. I still do.
  300. [2011-07-27 12:03:19] <gaijinguy> Some people are disrespectful punks who honestly don't give a damn about the efforts and sacrifices of others. Truefax.
  301. [2011-07-27 12:03:20] <DML> Skating and playing music are two different things - but what I'm keeping to is that skating shouldn't be used to promote things that have nothing to do with it.
  302. [2011-07-27 12:03:28] <Aster> Though, July-- when a store was created and its public feedback have nothing to do with what the store sold and tried to market. Just saying that neither of us are probably right, or wrong here.
  303. [2011-07-27 12:03:28] <gaijinguy> These people also tend to be teenagers.
  304. [2011-07-27 12:03:36] <DML> Yeah - and that was what Kerrigan /was/ in the story.
  305. [2011-07-27 12:03:40] <Aster> But even so, topic over. Pardon the pun.
  306. [2011-07-27 12:03:59] <DML> Only she wasn't a teenager, and had significant power to actually inflict damage on the reputation of the sport.
  307. [2011-07-27 12:04:12] <DML> And that was what drove the plot.
  308. [2011-07-27 12:04:17] <Aster> Moral of the story DML-- Immature people ruin everything?
  309. [2011-07-27 12:04:23] <gaijinguy> Except, wasn't she accomplished in the sport herself?
  310. [2011-07-27 12:04:24] <DML> I guess you could say that.
  311. [2011-07-27 12:04:31] <July> Aster, yes it does. There's a general difference between how a store is run before and after it is traded publicly.
  312. [2011-07-27 12:04:46] <gaijinguy> She decided to take everything she could get, and. . . did.
  313. [2011-07-27 12:05:18] <Aster> I am not quite sure what you mean by 'is run'
  314. [2011-07-27 12:05:40] <Aster> Do you mean the upper management? Their goals for selling things? What they buy? How they conduct business? How they advertise?
  315. [2011-07-27 12:05:55] <Aster> The public isn't aware of half of those things.
  316. [2011-07-27 12:06:09] <gaijinguy> Well, they are, if they care to be.
  317. [2011-07-27 12:06:10] <DML> Heh. This is where I've actually got it covered; in the real world, in terms of skateboarding ability, there /are/ better skaters out there than Tony Hawk and Bam Margera. Bob Burnquist and Bucky Lasek are incredibly talented and while they're definitely up there, I don't think they get all the recognition they deserve.
  318. [2011-07-27 12:06:17] <gaijinguy> That's what annual reports are for.
  319. [2011-07-27 12:06:23] <Aster> Which the average consumer doesn't. Unfortunately.
  320. [2011-07-27 12:06:31] <DML> But I don't want to talk about IRL skaters. In that fanfic, actually Sarah wasn't the best skater, she just got lucky, first.
  321. [2011-07-27 12:06:41] <gaijinguy> Aster: Rational ignorance, I'm afraid.
  322. [2011-07-27 12:06:52] <Artell> Er, as far as I understand, Hot Topic was founded, then the faux goth thing got big, and they latched on to it, and made loads of money.
  323. [2011-07-27 12:07:06] <Aster> ^is what I was talking about, the 'latching onto it'
  324. [2011-07-27 12:07:19] <Artell> Yeah, but you were also saying Hot Topic created the thing in the first place.
  325. [2011-07-27 12:07:26] <Aster> Yeah, I mispoke on that.
  326. [2011-07-27 12:07:27] <Aster> I'm sorry.
  327. [2011-07-27 12:07:29] <Artell> Okay.
  328. [2011-07-27 12:07:39] <Aster> Once they latched on, they created a lot of stuff that didn't previously exist.
  329. [2011-07-27 12:07:56] <Aster> Which didn't have any basis in the existing culture, nor real involvement of the members of that culture.
  330. [2011-07-27 12:08:19] <DML> In any case, actually now I feel like redesigning that story, taking into account what GG's said about this, focusing more on the difference between mall culture versus reputation, and writing it as a standalone, character-driven story that examines a changing relationship between two boarding buddies that split up.
  331. [2011-07-27 12:08:23] <Aster> And using label power, incorporated it into the culture by sheer 'Hot Topic is scene, if it's from Hot Topic, it belongs!' rather than any real trendsetting.
  332. [2011-07-27 12:08:28] <Artell> in other words, they became a part of that culture?
  333. [2011-07-27 12:08:42] <Aster> Not really. Well, in the literal sense, yeah.
  334. [2011-07-27 12:08:50] <DML> I probably could do that without too much trouble, actually.
  335. [2011-07-27 12:08:51] <gaijinguy> Aster: You could say that about any piece of fashion.
  336. [2011-07-27 12:09:24] <Artell> I just think you're ascribing way too much influence to Hot Topic than is due. I don't think Hot Topic was that big of a thing until well into the nineties and soon after it got the poser stigma on it.
  337. [2011-07-27 12:09:32] <Aster> But part of being a culture is setting forth something that the PEOPLE of that culture are into. Rather than making something and having people buy it because they are part of that culture.
  338. [2011-07-27 12:09:56] <DML> Would any of you read that - a story about skateboarding?
  339. [2011-07-27 12:09:56] <Aster> Kind of like...
  340. [2011-07-27 12:10:05] <Artell> You're talking about the sort of power Coca-Cola might have had, once.
  341. [2011-07-27 12:10:13] <gaijinguy> DML: No.
  342. [2011-07-27 12:10:46] <July> Except much of what they sell there is still the base components of what people would get anyways.
  343. [2011-07-27 12:10:53] <gaijinguy> Not out of disrespect, mind, but because the sport and associated culture are completely alien to me. I honestly don't understand how it can be quantified as a sport.
  344. [2011-07-27 12:10:53] <DML> Yeah, alright, the thought just occurred to me.
  345. [2011-07-27 12:10:54] <July> It's just crammed into one little store.
  346. [2011-07-27 12:11:05] <DML> Huh. Alright, no problem.
  347. [2011-07-27 12:11:05] <Aster> 'internet people will make memes out of the things they find funny' rather than 'if we call it a meme, people will like it.'
  348. [2011-07-27 12:11:18] <gaijinguy> It's not like golf, even, where you can count strokes to see who's "better."
  349. [2011-07-27 12:11:38] <July> The difference between now and then is that further commercialization has occurred, with a massive amount of licensing, which is why it has its current reputation.
  350. [2011-07-27 12:11:41] <Artell> But you're saying Hot Topic succeeded at that, even though we all know that trying to make things memes on purpose never works?
  351. [2011-07-27 12:11:42] <DML> Yeah. It's definitely much more subjective. That's fair, GG.
  352. [2011-07-27 12:12:05] <Aster> It sometimes works.
  353. [2011-07-27 12:12:10] <Aster> It sure worked for Hot Topic.
  354. [2011-07-27 12:12:13] <DML> Well, I've almost done checking through the archives. These disks are cooked.
  355. [2011-07-27 12:12:42] <Aster> There are people who I am sure on the internet have the power to make anything a meme.
  356. [2011-07-27 12:12:49] <Artell> People are very good at smelling when they're being manipulated with this sort of thing.
  357. [2011-07-27 12:12:49] <Aster> Like, anything the Nostalgia Critic says.
  358. [2011-07-27 12:12:56] <Aster> ... I am not so sure, Artell.
  359. [2011-07-27 12:13:01] <gaijinguy> I mean, if was like a skateboarding obstacle course, and timed. . .
  360. [2011-07-27 12:13:03] <Aster> Every teenager ever, for example.
  361. [2011-07-27 12:13:26] <DML> I've made copies of them using a low-level copy, then trying to mount the copied filesystem (so that way I don't do anything to the originals).
  362. [2011-07-27 12:13:28] <Artell> I think that's why Hot Topic got the reputation it did - it tried to ride the wave too hard and too commercially and people cottoned on.
  363. [2011-07-27 12:13:37] <Aster> Yep
  364. [2011-07-27 12:13:40] <DML> Almost all of them come up as damaged. I think these floppies have had it.
  365. [2011-07-27 12:13:48] <Artell> Well yeah, there's the Hot Topic kids (the people who parrot Nostalgia Critic), and the people who know better (people who don't worship Nostalgia Critic).
  366. [2011-07-27 12:13:49] <EF> Oh, I know what you're talking about Aster. I know such a meme guy.
  367. [2011-07-27 12:13:52] <gaijinguy> I bought my Venom t-shirt at Hot Topic. No one else had one.
  368. [2011-07-27 12:14:09] <July> So, Aster, you're saying when you were a kid and Pokemon was the best thing ever, you would've settled for Digimon because someone said it was just as awesome?
  369. [2011-07-27 12:14:28] <Aster> ... that's not what I am saying at all, July. I am not sure where you came up with that.
  370. [2011-07-27 12:14:43] <DML> Sorry. I don't think you guys will get to see this one, not even I can. The copies are dead, the backup copies are dead, and the backup-backup copies are dead.
  371. [2011-07-27 12:14:44] <July> You just said it.
  372. [2011-07-27 12:15:01] <July> (01:16:16 PM) Artell: People are very good at smelling when they're being manipulated with this sort of thing.
  373. [2011-07-27 12:15:01] <July> (01:16:24 PM) Aster: ... I am not so sure, Artell.
  374. [2011-07-27 12:15:01] <July> (01:16:30 PM) Aster: Every teenager ever, for example.
  375. [2011-07-27 12:15:18] <Aster> ... You know very well what I mean. You deal with it in badfic every day.
  376. [2011-07-27 12:15:52] <July> No, I do not know what you mean because you are not defining your statements into being clear cut and understandable.
  377. [2011-07-27 12:15:57] <Artell> I think this is getting way too far from the original topic.
  378. [2011-07-27 12:15:59] -->| gaijinguy22 (6324191b@ircip1.mibbit.com) has joined #PPC
  379. [2011-07-27 12:16:07] <Artell> I can't keep track of what we're talking about and how it relates to that.
  380. [2011-07-27 12:16:25] <July> Your statement was that the populace is easily manipulated for commercial items.
  381. [2011-07-27 12:16:31] <gaijinguy22> I think all the wires have crossed at this point.
  382. [2011-07-27 12:16:37] <July> Especially the youth.
  383. [2011-07-27 12:16:45] <Aster> Yes. That is true.
  384. [2011-07-27 12:16:50] <July> I offered an example.
  385. [2011-07-27 12:16:57] <July> You said it was nothing at all like what you said.
  386. [2011-07-27 12:17:02] <Aster> That is a terrible example. Because it's not manipulation.
  387. [2011-07-27 12:17:30] <DML> Well... I guess we've learned one lesson from this.
  388. [2011-07-27 12:17:34] <Artell> The whole thing depends, I was just saying that if you have people trying to create a thing that's "in" out of whole cloth for the purpose of making money, it can well fall flat on its face because people have a sense of when it's artificial.
  389. [2011-07-27 12:17:35] <Artell> Like with memes.
  390. [2011-07-27 12:17:51] <Artell> I mean something like Pokemon was obviously commercialized and turned into a big hit in the first place.
  391. [2011-07-27 12:18:00] <DML> "If you intend to keep stuff for later amusement, don't put it onto 3.5" floppy disks."
  392. [2011-07-27 12:18:21] <gaijinguy22> DML: Amen. Especially if you live in a desert.
  393. [2011-07-27 12:18:27] <Aster> July, let me say this: why is every single Mary Sue beautiful, sexy-outfit-wearing, and amazing? Young people often are easily manipulated into trying to change themselves into what they have been told 'cool' is.
  394. [2011-07-27 12:18:28] <DML> Ack >_<.
  395. [2011-07-27 12:18:38] <gaijinguy22> 3.5" s have a lifespan of days there.
  396. [2011-07-27 12:18:44] <Aster> That's hardly 'if your friend told you to like Digimon you would'.
  397. [2011-07-27 12:18:44] <DML> ...yikes.
  398. [2011-07-27 12:18:56] * gaijinguy22 found this out the hard way
  399. [2011-07-27 12:18:58] <July> Aster, how does that have anything to do with what you are saying?
  400. [2011-07-27 12:19:05] <DML> Oh geez. What happened?
  401. [2011-07-27 12:19:10] <Aster> because it's what I'm saying....?
  402. [2011-07-27 12:19:11] <July> You seem to have some strange obsession with Mary Sues.
  403. [2011-07-27 12:19:13] <gaijinguy22> I started keeping records.
  404. [2011-07-27 12:19:19] <Aster> ... We ARE in the PPC, July.
  405. [2011-07-27 12:19:19] <Artell> Every single Mary Sue is not beautiful and amazing? Aren't there Mary Sues who are woobies that all the canons take care of etc?
  406. [2011-07-27 12:19:26] <gaijinguy22> Then, a few days later, I discovered I had to keep them again.
  407. [2011-07-27 12:19:30] <Artell> The whole, "woe is me" Mary Sue.
  408. [2011-07-27 12:19:31] |<-- gaijinguy has left irc.blitzed.org (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  409. [2011-07-27 12:19:37] <Bryn> don't forget the 'anti' mary sues
  410. [2011-07-27 12:19:39] <Aster> It's hard to come up with topics that everybody here relates to.
  411. [2011-07-27 12:19:43] <July> The previous conversation we had had nothing to do with Mary Sues at all.
  412. [2011-07-27 12:19:46] <Artell> Yeah, Bryn.
  413. [2011-07-27 12:19:53] <gaijinguy22> And then there's the Mary Sue that doesn't really do anything except get kicked around by the plot.
  414. [2011-07-27 12:19:57] <DML> They just... deteriorate or something?
  415. [2011-07-27 12:20:08] <DML> Or demagnitize or...?
  416. [2011-07-27 12:20:11] <July> It was in regards to commercialization and subcultures.
  417. [2011-07-27 12:20:25] <gaijinguy22> DML: Just stopped working. I think the sand got inside and scratched the magnetic bit up, but I'm not sure.
  418. [2011-07-27 12:20:28] <Artell> Mary Sue is more appropriately a shallow character who's more often than not a writer self-insert of some kind or the other.
  419. [2011-07-27 12:20:33] <DML> Yikes.
  420. [2011-07-27 12:20:49] <Bryn> yeah, Artell
  421. [2011-07-27 12:21:03] <July> A more apt fandom comparison for you would be the example of FanLore, and other sites that are being commercialized and sold out to make a profit for the owners.
  422. [2011-07-27 12:21:10] <Aster> OK, July. Let me try and restate it differently. I was trying to talk about how young people (often makers of Mary Sues) are pressured into liking things/buying things/being part of things rather than belonging to a real culture.
  423. [2011-07-27 12:21:23] <Aster> Young people are vulnerable because they are trying to fit in.
  424. [2011-07-27 12:21:34] <Artell> The whole thing is kind of reliant on trying to define a "real" culture
  425. [2011-07-27 12:21:37] <Aster> If something promises that they will fit in or be cool, they are more likely to buy it.
  426. [2011-07-27 12:21:44] <July> Aster, that's what the Pokemon vs Digimon point was.
  427. [2011-07-27 12:21:45] <Aster> That is how they are pressured.
  428. [2011-07-27 12:21:50] <Artell> What's to say youth culture isn't what the young people are actually doing?
  429. [2011-07-27 12:22:00] <July> Now you are simply disagreeing to be disagreeable.
  430. [2011-07-27 12:22:06] <Artell> Can it only be real culture if it's not mainstream?
  431. [2011-07-27 12:22:06] <Aster> ...????
  432. [2011-07-27 12:22:33] <Aster> July, stop it. I'm not disagreeing to be disagreeable.
  433. [2011-07-27 12:22:46] <Aster> Please stop doing that. It's super annoying.
  434. [2011-07-27 12:23:08] <July> Aster, now you're just being irrational.
  435. [2011-07-27 12:23:10] <Aster> You keep casting aspersions about my character every time something like this happens. It's not cool.
  436. [2011-07-27 12:23:16] <July> I'm not doing anything annoying.
  437. [2011-07-27 12:23:19] <Artell> ArtellWell she's disagreeing insomuch as she's been disagreeing on that thing all along.
  438. [2011-07-27 12:23:24] <Artell> -Artell
  439. [2011-07-27 12:23:51] <gaijinguy22> Well, the fic's lost, so it's a moot point anyways, apparently.
  440. [2011-07-27 12:24:02] <DML> Well... I could rewrite it.
  441. [2011-07-27 12:24:05] <Aster> This happens every single time, July. Something like this happens and it's 'Oh, Aster is just being a stubborn idiot,' 'Oh, Aster is just being disagreeable.'
  442. [2011-07-27 12:24:16] <DML> Or I could /try./
  443. [2011-07-27 12:24:17] <Aster> I thought YOU hated it when people didn't take YOU seriously.
  444. [2011-07-27 12:24:20] <July> No, Aster.
  445. [2011-07-27 12:24:23] <Aster> So please don't do it to me.
  446. [2011-07-27 12:24:27] <Artell> Er, you maen, "July, you are just being aggressive", "You are just being insulting"
  447. [2011-07-27 12:24:35] <--| Bryn has left #PPC
  448. [2011-07-27 12:25:04] <Aster> I just don't feel respected here. That's all. No more to say, really.
  449. [2011-07-27 12:25:05] <July> Aster, I am not calling you an idiot.
  450. [2011-07-27 12:25:16] <Artell> She doesn't either! Fascinating.
  451. [2011-07-27 12:25:32] <July> All I am trying to state is that your 'I disagree!' is completely surface based.
  452. [2011-07-27 12:25:42] <July> As what you are saying in return is agreeing with me.
  453. [2011-07-27 12:25:54] <July> You are simply refusing to see that.
  454. [2011-07-27 12:26:10] <Aster> I just didn't think your example was very good. The point is that it's an AUTHORITY pressuring people not simply 'you should like Digimon'
  455. [2011-07-27 12:26:45] <Artell> Okay, it's a matter of authority. Where did Hot Topic get its authority?
  456. [2011-07-27 12:26:58] <Artell> Presuming it created the whole poser goth thing?
  457. [2011-07-27 12:27:05] <Aster> The whole point being 'Hot Topic can set these trends because Hot Topic is Hot Topic, ' rather than 'Hot Topic can set these trends because it's scene or even involved with the real base culture.'
  458. [2011-07-27 12:27:20] <Artell> But it's a circular argument, how did Hot Topic become to be in the position of Hot Topic?
  459. [2011-07-27 12:27:26] <Artell> come*
  460. [2011-07-27 12:27:26] <Aster> Fame.
  461. [2011-07-27 12:27:34] <Aster> That's all it is-- good fame or bad fame.
  462. [2011-07-27 12:27:35] <Artell> And how did it get that fame? By doing something else?
  463. [2011-07-27 12:27:35] <Aster> Fame is fame.
  464. [2011-07-27 12:27:50] <Aster> I dunno. How the heck did Twilight get famous?
  465. [2011-07-27 12:28:00] <gaijinguy22> Oodles of people buying it?
  466. [2011-07-27 12:28:01] <Aster> Or Eragon?
  467. [2011-07-27 12:28:16] <Artell> But why did poser goths suddenly decide to listen to Hot Topic, especially if Hot Topic hadn't peddled in poser goth wares before?
  468. [2011-07-27 12:28:39] <Aster> Because it came together and came up with a marketing plan that got to them.
  469. [2011-07-27 12:28:43] <Artell> Twilight is an interesting question; I think it's a demographics thing.
  470. [2011-07-27 12:28:43] <Aster> The same way celebrity PR works.
  471. [2011-07-27 12:28:53] <Aster> 'we want to appeal to this demographic. What do we have to sell, and how?'
  472. [2011-07-27 12:29:19] <Artell> So authority comes from shelling money, but what about all the failed campaigns to make things hip or cool?
  473. [2011-07-27 12:29:28] <Artell> There's probably more failures than successes in this line of business.
  474. [2011-07-27 12:29:41] <Aster> No buzz = no fame = no authority.
  475. [2011-07-27 12:29:45] <Artell> I'd say you ALSO need to have a good product.
  476. [2011-07-27 12:29:54] <Artell> An appealing product, at least.
  477. [2011-07-27 12:29:56] <Aster> mm, yeah.
  478. [2011-07-27 12:30:03] <Artell> Twilight isn't high literature but it does what it's set out to do, entertain.
  479. [2011-07-27 12:30:06] <Artell> If you are the right audience.
  480. [2011-07-27 12:30:07] <Aster> But not always a product that has to do with what they're latching on to.
  481. [2011-07-27 12:30:16] <Aster> Ins the same way that Twilight has nothing to do with real Vampires.
  482. [2011-07-27 12:30:26] <Artell> Real vampires is kind of an oxymoron. :P
  483. [2011-07-27 12:30:48] <Artell> Of all the things to criticize Twilight for, I think "the vampires aren't real vampires" isn't up there.
  484. [2011-07-27 12:31:08] <Artell> They're vampires! Do whatever you want! Just keep the scary misogynistic crap out!
  485. [2011-07-27 12:31:31] <Aster> <_< sparkling and don't die in sunlight and are actually weird petrified stone golem creatures.
  486. [2011-07-27 12:31:34] <Aster> Not vampires to me.
  487. [2011-07-27 12:31:42] <gaijinguy22> They'
  488. [2011-07-27 12:31:58] <gaijinguy22> re not consistent with the previously established lore, true-
  489. [2011-07-27 12:32:16] <gaijinguy22> but the lore itself is so twisted and self-contradictory that's not really a useful standard.
  490. [2011-07-27 12:32:22] <Artell> Oh, Aster, are you familiar with the term "astroturfing"? I think it's relevant here.
  491. [2011-07-27 12:33:01] <Aster> Explain, please
  492. [2011-07-27 12:33:06] <Artell> It's exactly the sort of thing where an effort is made to manufacture something but in such a fashion as to give it artificially an appearance of being "grassroots" and "original" and "cool".
  493. [2011-07-27 12:33:21] <Aster> Ah, yes.
  494. [2011-07-27 12:34:54] <Artell> They've only been really successful when they've been able to tap into existing political sentiment and with huge amounts of resources. The Tea Party is the most famous example right now, and even there the properly astroturfed organization had a big internecine spat with the "real" Tea Party.
  495. [2011-07-27 12:35:18] <Artell> What happened was that the corporate backers of the astroturf Tea Party just went and supported the "real" Tea Party (originally a bunch of Ron Paul supporters).
  496. [2011-07-27 12:35:34] <Aster> Yeah, that's the context I thought that word belonged in.
  497. [2011-07-27 12:36:04] <Miah> Can we all just stop and change to a totally different topic, please?
  498. [2011-07-27 12:36:26] <Miah> What is everyone working on right now?
  499. [2011-07-27 12:36:49] <Aster> I am trying to call my parents and ask if they have any chores for me before they get home but they aren't answering.
  500. [2011-07-27 12:36:49] <Aster> :|
  501. [2011-07-27 12:36:52] <DML> Trying to create my own MS Word Templates.
  502. [2011-07-27 12:36:55] <Miah> I'm looking at a sweet deal on Latin textbooks on Ebay, right now.
  503. [2011-07-27 12:37:04] <EF> I'm fixing my ff.net stories.
  504. [2011-07-27 12:37:11] <gaijinguy22> Miah: Original story, hunting for badfic to possibly take care of at a later date.
  505. [2011-07-27 12:37:12] <Artell> I'm working on my map for my fantasy setting.
  506. [2011-07-27 12:37:42] <Miah> Sounds fun.
  507. [2011-07-27 12:37:54] <July> ?
  508. [2011-07-27 12:38:03] <July> What was wrong with that topic?
  509. [2011-07-27 12:38:15] <Aster> Too snarling.
  510. [2011-07-27 12:38:17] <Aster> on our part.
  511. [2011-07-27 12:38:20] <gaijinguy22> I found a piece of execrable MTG fic.
  512. [2011-07-27 12:38:29] <July> But it was Artell and you.
  513. [2011-07-27 12:38:34] <EF> gai: LINK!
  514. [2011-07-27 12:38:36] <DML> I figure I could save a whole lot of time with formatting if I just used the styles sheets to set the formatting of the story and the excerpts in one click instead.
  515. [2011-07-27 12:38:37] <July> Artell does not snarl.
  516. [2011-07-27 12:38:38] <gaijinguy22> And it was veering into politics.
  517. [2011-07-27 12:38:45] <DML> Gaijinguy22 - link!
  518. [2011-07-27 12:38:48] <gaijinguy22> EF: It's the one I showed you previously.
  519. [2011-07-27 12:38:51] <July> Artell is a political scientist.
  520. [2011-07-27 12:38:54] <EF> Ah.
  521. [2011-07-27 12:38:55] <EF> Eww.
  522. [2011-07-27 12:39:01] <DML> After I'm done, ah,
  523. [2011-07-27 12:39:02] <Miah> What kind of badfic is it?
  524. [2011-07-27 12:39:04] <DML> does anyone want the template?
  525. [2011-07-27 12:39:06] <Artell> Er, yeah, of course I would go for politics for a working example.
  526. [2011-07-27 12:39:10] <EF> It's EWWWWWfic.
  527. [2011-07-27 12:39:10] <DML> I'll save it as a .dotx.
  528. [2011-07-27 12:39:13] * Aster looks at July very hard. "Artell was the good part."
  529. [2011-07-27 12:39:22] <Miah> Uh, Maybe not then
  530. [2011-07-27 12:39:23] <DML> and put it on Tangodown and then you can grab it there.
  531. [2011-07-27 12:39:36] <July> That's like expecting DML to not explain a gun or how someone is misusing it when it is the case.
  532. [2011-07-27 12:39:47] <DML> Hee.
  533. [2011-07-27 12:39:56] <DML> Anyone interested in using the template?
  534. [2011-07-27 12:39:58] <Miah> I found an awesomely bad Sherlock Holmes the other day.,
  535. [2011-07-27 12:40:03] <gaijinguy22> OK, here's the fic (NSFW) :http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4719444/1/bDarkness_b_bOur_b_bBride_b
  536. [2011-07-27 12:40:11] <EF> And NSFB.
  537. [2011-07-27 12:40:18] <Miah> I don't use that kind of format, DML. Thanks though.
  538. [2011-07-27 12:40:38] * Artell could prepare an epic whine about how people not wanting to talk about politics is why people don't want to talk about politics.
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