Randy Credico Interviews Christine Assange (09/26/2017)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's back channel to Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

Christine Assange on "Live on the Fly With Randy Credico", broadcast date: September 26, 2017. Excerpt runs from 20:26 to 48:44.

File link: https://www.mediafire.com/file/tfrd9w6du11dbeu/wbai_170926_170002randyCrelof%20-%20Christine%20Assange.mp3

RANDY CREDICO
That was Leonard Cohen, Leonard Cohen, and that's called "The Partisan", and it's about the Spanish Civil War, and we have a real partisan on right now, one of my favorite people in the whole planet, coming- it's very early in the morning in Australia, am I right? [pause] We have-

CHRISTINE ASSANGE
Am I on, Randy?

CREDICO
Yes, you are on right now, Christine Assange. [inaudible because of ASSANGE]

ASSANGE
I'm not really an early morning person, so you'll have to forgive me. [laughs, starts to talk but it's inaudible because of CREDICO]

CREDICO
That's okay, it's seven twenty over there. It's seven twenty in the morning. Well...I chatted with you, yesterday, when it was morn- this morning, it's weird, because you know, we talk, and it's morning here, and it's late there, or vice versa. But uh thank you for being back on this show, we are being joined by the mother of the most accurate source in news. And the most audacious. And one of the greatest journalists on the planet, never to controverted or to be confuted, and that of course is Julian Assange, and- How you feeling today, Christine, welcome back, by the way.

ASSANGE
Thanks Randy, thanks for having me, I had to come back today when I heard was happening to your radio station, and to put my two [inaudible] in why you should be supported. And in fact, the Empire State Building should not only not go after you for some sort of rent, but they should perhaps kick in some other costs as well.

CREDICO
Yes. [laughs] I hope they listen to you, I hope they're listening to you, right now, because in a way, this all goes back to 9/11. 9/11, you had what happened here, and after 9/11 we had this domestic repression, which your son is a victim of right now, because they passed all of these laws, the 623 is about to be passed, and what we've done overseas, the 9/11 has done more damage to people around the world and to the public, domestically, with the Patriot Act, and with H.R. 347, and the NDAA, which [former FBI agent] Coleen Rowley will be talking about later on. Uh, but listen, this is the station, this is the station that- we did a fifteen part series on Julian Assange. Where would you go to find a station in this country that would do something like that?

ASSANGE
Yes, well, that's exactly right. And it's actually an attack on the First Amendment [it isn't] which is the right for all Americans...I would say the thing that is most...that is to say, what was the most important thing that America contributed, and what is the most important freedom for Americans, it would be the First Amendment, which protects your speech, free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and of association. And it actually says, and it was written in 1791, [CREDICO: Wow!] that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or the freedom of the press, or the right of the people to peacefully assemble. What was interesting about that, I read behind what was first written in the draft, and there was an interesting thing in the draft, it didn't make it in, but because they had to abbreviate it, and they said, "Freedom of the press was one of the greatest works of liberty." And I have been thinking about that this week, that without freedom of the press...it's the freedom upon which all other freedoms depend, because what are you going to do if power gets out of control, what are people going to know. [CREDICO: RIGHT.] The only way they're going to know is through freedom of the press.

CREDICO
Absolutely. Yes, you're absolutely right. It's the bedrock...without the press, and the press is under attack here, or it's controlled by corporations, and the one place I go to - and, by the way, you're like a history professor, you're like your son. You know, I spoke to him, I was in London, and it was the greatest experience - and, by the way, he's in great health, he looks wonderful, but it was like - he was giving me a history lesson. He's so well read, and he's so articulate, and, you know, he would make a great lecturer, just to come out and talk about history, and talk about civics, and talk about the press, just like you did, now. Um, so, as I said...you have not seen him, in a while, though, am I right?  You have not seen Julian in how long?

ASSANGE
Well, um, I haven't seen him for a couple of years. I don't- I got sick the last few times I traveled, and I was actually looking after my husband, the last two years, was recovering from cancer. Julian has not seen two other people who have died, who were very close to him, his grandfather, and my mother and father, his grandmother and grandfather, have both died in that time, in fact, my mother passed away a couple of weeks ago.

CREDICO
I'm very sorry to hear that, I know he was very close with his grandmother and it...it's very difficult not to be able to see a loved one. And why wouldn't...why couldn't they work something out, to let him go there? Why didn't- How come your government hasn't done anything to get him a passport and try to put some pressure on the British government...do you think [sic]?

ASSANGE
Well, because our government is basically the fifty first state of the U.S. I mean, I think we discussed the last time how our government, of both parties, has not only not helped Julian, but actively, at least the Labor Party, actively worked against him. And has come out and smeared other people- if you want to know who is after whose job, in the Labor Party in Australia, you just have to watch who's smearing Julian, as an audition to the U.S. embassy. Because it would appear that the one who smears the most, ends up with the coup. And gets in. It was [Julia] Gillard and now it's going to be Tanya Plibersek, who's the deputy of the Labor Party. Look, I just want to get back at this-

CREDICO
The First Amendment. I'm sorry, I diverted.

ASSANGE
No, that's alright. Look, I was looking over the words very carefully, um, and the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee, [inaudible] part of the National Defense Authorization Act 2018, it says, "it is the sense of the Congress that Wikileaks resembles a non-state hostile intelligence service, often abetted by state actors and should be treated as such," and I looked up "sense" in the dictionary. And "sense" says "a vague feeling". Well, a lot of people have more than a vague feeling that the CIA and the FBI, at the moment, resemble a hostile intelligence service towards not only the rest of the world, but the American people.

CREDICO
That's a pretty good-

ASSANGE
When they say that Wikileaks is hostile, exactly who is it hostile to? Julian and his team have won many, many awards worldwide for journalism. And in fact, accurate journalism. And how is accurate journalism hostile? I mean, 2010, a group of U.S. ex-intelligence professionals gave him the 2010 Global Sam Adams Award-

CREDICO
SAM ADAMS. AWARD FOR- YES. I was at that dinner the other night. Yes, that was the dinner the other night. I was down in D.C. with Ray McGovern, and Julian came up a lot. He was 2010. Yes. I'm sorry. Continue.

ASSANGE
That was Integrity in Intelligence for our Iraq War and Afghanistan related- Now, I wonder if the CIA has ever won any Integrity in Intelligence [award], because I'm sure Coleen Rowley would tell you that they haven't.

CREDICO
She's going to be on real soon to talk about this entire episode, that just took place with the Senate Intelligence Committee, and that 623, she's going to be closing with commentary. I spent about an hour the other day, she was talking very fondly, after the dinner we sat down and we just had a very nice conversation and Julian came up a lot, came up a lot that day. Uh, so, look. Talk about hostile forces, yes. The CIA, and the NSA, those are the hostile forces, and Julian has basically exposed that. And Wikileaks. I don't want to leave out everybody else. Because Wikileaks is a very, you know, he runs it, but there are other people involved, and...what, let me, this is something I wanted to ask you. It must be...very disturbing, when you read about some of the statements, how he's pilloried, how he's vilified, and a subject of threats, even by journalists, promoting assassination, how do you respond to that, emotionally?

ASSANGE
Aw look, um, it's- it's- they're always a child, okay? You hurt- There's a saying that you're only as happy as your own miserable kid, and I think any parent can relate to that. You always want to protect your child, I don't want to protect my child from doing wrong things. And I wouldn't stand up for him if he was doing the wrong thing. I might support him emotionally, but I wouldn't stand up for him. But what is happening here, is that he is being smeared wrongfully, that he hasn't done these things. And then you have to ask yourself, why- How many editors around the world are getting smeared for telling the truth, and then you have to ask yourself, why they smear him. Well, they're smearing him because he is telling the truth. And as you said, over the years, the media has condensed to be owned by a few corporate heads, wealthy factions. And so, a lot of very wealthy one percenters, or elitists, actually own the media, and are the same ones that are being exposed, have shares in the war industry and so on. And they're the ones that are being exposed. So, of course they're going to smear him. But it's still...I expected that. But what is really disappointing, and gutwrenching, is the...just your average mediocre journalist having a go at him, in the industry, as he's suffering some five year detention without sunlight or fresh air. Or exercise.

CREDICO
Five years and one hundred days. Five years and one hundred days. Coming up.

ASSANGE
That's- But you know, if you're talking about this sense of, and vague feeling, and "resemble", words in the Senate Intelligence Committee, can you imagine any prosecutor getting away with that in front of a jury or a judge? "Oh, your honor, I was- this man should be committed- needs to be convicted of perjury because I have a sense of- that he might be a murderer, and he resembles one."

CREDICO
Right.

ASSANGE
This is not legal language. This is the language of gutter press.

CREDICO
Well, they seem to have just made it up. What's that?

ASSANGE
There's no evidence whatsoever, that Julian and Wikileaks are abetted by state actors. But there's plenty of evidence that they haven't. Did you read the latest report from Veterans Intelligence Professionals for Sanity?

CREDICO
Right. They have definitely got forensic evidence that Russia was not involved. And the other day, the other day, Hillary Clinton was on a local radio show here, and once again, Julian Assange and Wikileaks are cut-outs for Russia. What do you say to that? She's such a sore loser.

ASSANGE
Well, you know when you've got a couple of kids, and one of them's done the wrong thing, and you come into the room and there's some terrible mess or something, and there's two kids looking, and one of them goes to the other, "Who did it?"

CREDICO
Right.

ASSANGE
-[inaudible] the other way.

CREDICO
Right, right.

ASSANGE
Well, the Russia-Wikileaks seems to be the goto place when anyone gets caught with their pants down. It's "Russia-Wikileaks! Russia-Wikileaks!" You know, it's almost like putting your hand up and saying "I'm guilty of something." Because I've said "Russia-Wikileaks!"

CREDICO
Right, right.

ASSANGE
It's become the goto place- I mean, it's ass covering, isn't it? Of the highest order. But what's really concerning-

CREDICO
He's the fall guy, for the woman that fell from grace. The Democratic Party. He's become the fall guy.

ASSANGE
Well, if it was just her, you could go okay, it's just her, but the fact that your whole intelligence services are behind it as well, is really concerning, because they're carrying on about Russia interfering with democracy for which there's absolutely no evidence, and in fact other intelligence people um who formally worked in the agencies are saying no, this is not the case, the downloads may be too fast for it to be an outside job, it's an insider job, and they've even gone as far to say that it's on the east coast. So, now you've got a compromised intelligence service, which is backing a particular candidate, that is a concern. If you want to talk about interference in democracy, that would be the greatest dangerous threat to your American democracy from your own intelligence services, to be lying to the people. To back one candidate, or to bring down another one, which is what they appear to be doing with Donald Trump. Getting back to your WBAI service, I am sure if I were to look to other programs that are run on your radio station, I would not agree with some of the sentiments that people are expressing. But I am totally supportive of your radio station, as a whole, running all of those programs, even the ones that I wouldn't agree with. And the reason is the freedom of the press. And if people have lots and lots and lots of different parts of opinions, it's really valuable to them. They can make up their own mind, and in the end, if enough opinions are allowed to be worked around the community either through free press or free speech...the people are not stupid. They will eventually, they thought through all of those, and listened, they make up their own minds. And that's what democracy's about, having faith that if the people are given the right information, and enough of the right information, and enough of varying viewpoints...that they will come to a better decision than the government makes on its own. That is why we have the jury service, because ordinary men and women are trusted more to make up their minds for the general community than a government which arbitrarily decides without their consent.

CREDICO
Hundred and forty eight hours of programming a week, and it's diverse, and it's without commercial interruption. That's what we have at WBAI. It's diverse on every level. After 9/11, as you know, these laws were passed in this country, and we went to war, used as an excuse...well, the Empire State Realty Trust has quadrupled our rent. At WBAI, which is bankrupting us, most of- all the other radio stations, almost all the other radio stations in the city pay one fifth of what this listener supported community radio station is paying. I know you signed the petition, because I think I may have sent it to you, and I know you're urging people to sign the petition, I really thank you for supporting this. I mean, you're a great guest, too, by the way. It's always, I have an international following...I can't tell you how many people were thrilled to know that you were going to be on this show, it's been a great platform for Julian, as Wikileaks is a great platform _for us_. We need Wikileaks!

ASSANGE
Well, we really think that you're a fabulous host, Randy, and I don't give interviews lightly. I don't give interviews to people who aren't interested in the truth, for example. And I don't give interviews to people who disrespect me while I'm trying to talk to them. And you're a courageous and articulate, informed interviewer, and I'm more than happy to give an interview to you. Now, the U.S. government might want to take a leaf out of Ecuador's book in regard to the media. They strengthened their media laws to protect the diversity and independence of their media...in their constitution, they've got two positions that are really important, which would be their sortof version of the First Amendment. But it goes a little bit further: they say, in their constitution, that the media pie must be made up of thirty three percent public media, thirty three percent private media, and thirty four percent community media. That's your media. Okay? In addition to that, a media owner cannot have any other business interests.

CREDICO
Right, well that's...that's a novelty here. I mean, there's no Murdoch in Ecuador. No one of that nature.

ASSANGE
No! No! But but, what you've got is- they have a problem down there, because they have, particularly U.S. interests that are trying to de-stabilize them, coming through the backdoor in the private media. Trying to destabilize the president. And he's got a lot of smears, same as Julian, same as anyone who stands up to the establishment, and the wealthy elites, will cop smears. It's almost like a badge of honor, if you're smeared badly, without any evidence, it means you're doing a good job...

CREDICO
Right.

ASSANGE
...to protect the people.

CREDICO
What do you think of the press in this country?

ASSANGE
The truth is, I've got a suggestion for the CIA...the FBI...and the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee. And my suggestion is, that they send- rather than planeloads to Sweden and Iceland to try to frame Julian for telling the truth...which is what they've done...that they hop on a plane, and come over to the Ecuadorean embassy, and to Wikileaks offices, and do an internship with Wikileaks, on how to verify evidence. Wikileaks has a one hundred percent, eleven year, ten million dollar document accuracy record. They're world experts in evidence verification, and they could go...just do that!

CREDICO
Can you think of any other news service around the world that has the record that Wikileaks has, for accuracy? Can you think of one?

ASSANGE
No, and because it's the original idea, rather than just expressing opinions, that anything they write is basically documentary evidence, and can be linked back to the documents. It's a scientific way of looking at journalism, and it's a- it's a way of getting information which respects the people's intelligence. Rather than try to massage it, and say again, "Well, you're not smart enough to figure it out yourself." You know, here's the document, read it yourself, in fact, we've got a crowdsourcing done with Wikileaks where Wikileaks will put out a lot of documents and then ask that the people go through them, see if you can find anything. And let us know. Then, they will do a double check on all of their documents. With experts. And they've even gone out into the field and asked people, you know, where something happened. Like the "Collateral Murder" video, they go out and verify it with the people in the field, this actually happened. Now, Coleen [Rowley] will tell you , she made great effort to let them know that this...what was going to happen in 9/11, and they were so busy protecting their turf, individual agencies, that they went ahead, they went ahead, and the people who gave- the intelligence-

CREDICO
Moussaoui.

ASSANGE
-they started, I think it was 2003, they started because they knew the intelligence about Iraq was wrong [this is unnecessarily opaque description of VIPS]. And they didn't want America getting into the war. And they've submitted ten different memorandums [sic] to presidents over the years, where they perceive that the intelligence community has got it wrong. And they were major problems of wars, that...the Syria chemical attack, for example [VIPS has argued that the major sarin attacks, both in 2013 and 2017 were false flag attacks by anti-Assad rebels to lure America into war]. Now, [inaudible] not listened to, and the question is, when they've been presenting, high level people, ex-NSA, ex-CIA, when they're presenting this evidence, why doesn't the government listen? And then you've gotta then ask yourself, well, who's interest is it, to continue these wars? And we all know whose interest it is. It's in the interest of the people who have shares in defense contracting industries.

CREDICO
NOW, DID YOU LEARN THIS ON YOUR OWN, OR DID YOU READ WIKILEAKS? [audio level is way too high] Are you learning all of this from Wikileaks? [pause] I'm just joking there. [dead silence for another pause] I'm just joking there. All this information you have, are you learning that on your own, or through Wikileaks? You already knew this, right?

ASSANGE
Uh no, I- I- Look, I'm very- I got a real education through Wikileaks. No, I'm not pulling it directly from Wikileaks. I'm doing it like any other citizen can do, which is get on-line, and...get off your selfies, and your facebook, and get a- The internet is a wonderful service if you use it properly, and a damaging narcissistic supplier, if you don't. Right? Use it in a way that you get informed, I mean, we need fewer political activists, and more politically engaged citizens. Democracy is not going to run itself. And those-

CREDICO
Right. HOW IS THE DIFFERENCE THERE BETWEEN ACTIVISM AND ENGAGEMENT?

ASSANGE
[ignores Credico yelling over her, and keeps talking, though it's inaudible] - what's happening to your radio station. Everybody who's listening to this radio station, on every program, not just yours, need to get down and hassle that Empire State Building and [inaudible] members. Because one thing you can be sure of, is [inaudible] works every time, and your local politician wants to keep his job, or her job, more than anything else in the world. And if you threaten them with your vote, saying "I'm not very happy with what you've just done, or what you've just voted, and if you don't change it, you're out on your ass next election," right? That is democracy in action.

CREDICO
Right. Well, it's hard to get people motivated here to vote. To be honest with you, because- I don't know what it's like there, you seem to have at least some progressive Greens in the Senate there, until our friend was just kicked out of there [Scott Ludlam], on some technicality [he had dual citizenship, a second citizenship in New Zealand], it's a very very difficult system to crack. You said the difference between activism and engagement, people should be _engaged_. Not just to be activists, but actually get out there and engage. Can you tell us the difference? We only have a few minutes left there, Mrs. Assange.

ASSANGE
Well, okay, look - if you leave democracy in the hands of what you call political activists, political activists being people who often devote their whole lives to it. And often when people devote their whole lives to something, they have a very strong position that they're coming from. Okay? And you need them from time to time. On specific issues. But if you [inaudible] democracy [inaudible] then you get a democracy which is only a viewpoint of a few people. If you want a more balanced democracy, then the citizens need to be politically engaged, and that's all I am. Sometimes people label me as a political activist, not really. I'm just an ordinary person who, from time to time, sees something I don't like and gets on the phone with their local member, or gets onto the radio station and corrects them...obviously my son, I've had to be more politically engaged, and support him, and in the process I've learnt a lot of stuff. But it is just a matter of getting up on the internet or the radio, reading newspapers, or listening to someone on the radio like yourself, and it's actually very interesting, particularly in these times, which are...1984, and it's here. And we really do need to be engaged, and Wikileaks is one of the ways that people can be engaged, because Wikileaks is not too scared to tell the truth.

CREDICO
Yes. YOU CAN FOLLOW WIKILEAKS THROUGH TWITTER AT...it's Wikileaks on twitter. Or Julian Assange. There's like ninety different Julian Assanges out there, there's one Julian Assange, and it's his name spelled out. And then there's Wikileaks dot org, people can get a free education by following Wikileaks, Julian Assange, and going to their website. Uh, Mrs. Assange, Christine, it's been a pleasure, I'm really looking forward to coming to Australia someday, I want to see the dogs. I was talking to Julian about- I think those blue dogs? Are they called celties?

ASSANGE
Blue and red heelers.

CREDICO
Oh, that's it. Blue and red heelers. Yes.

ASSANGE
[inaudible] Yes, that's a wonderful dog.

CREDICO
Yes. Has he- I have a little dog, and those dogs are so beautiful, they're actually _blue_. One of them's actually _blue_. I've never seen a blue dog. And...wear one of those Australian field hats. And work around in Western Australia. Alright, so listen, I know Julian listens to this show [said over cross talk], do you want to say goodbye to him? [pause] Any message to your son here?

ASSANGE
[pause] Is he there, is he?

CREDICO
No no no, he listens. So-

ASSANGE
Um...uh...It's so hard to say it publicly, isn't it? If I want to say it publicly. Um, you know, I love you, still fighting, sweetie. Still here. Keep up the good work. Do what you can to get out of the situation, [inaudible] still being happy with how you do it, um...look after your health. And many people are- support and love you.

CREDICO
Okay. Thank you very much, Christine Assange. We'll be talking soon. And thank you for all of your great work that you do. And support of your son, which is supporting Wikileaks, and supporting the free press. Christine Assange, look forward to talking to you soon, again. We'll be right back with Coleen Rowley.