[21:40] <Boilerplate> meleemario, you know while watching Wolf3D videos and playing the games, I finally understood what "FPS" meant while going back to it's roots....it's actually about shooting things which is just you and the ememies.


[21:41] <Boilerplate> Which is something that modern developers have forgotten what "FPS" meant


[21:42] <Boilerplate> FPS games do not supposed to have a story, interactive characters, etc. It's supposed to be you vs them shooting things and that's it and the closest thing to a story is a backstory which gives you reason to shoot them


[21:42] <Boilerplate> That's what it all it needs


[21:45] <meleemario> i completely agree Boilerplate


[21:45] <meleemario> this is why modern FPS games fucking suck


[21:46] <Boilerplate> Yep, they have forgotten what "FPS" means


[21:46] <meleemario> exactly


[21:46] <Boilerplate> They have become more like interactive movies than a game


[21:46] <meleemario> i know


[21:47] <meleemario> when you think of it that way, i think thats where Duke Nukem Forever failed


[21:47] <Boilerplate> That's why modern FPS are linear.


[21:47] <meleemario> Boilerplate: most games these days are interactive movies, not just these modern FPS games


[21:47] <Boilerplate> They don't mkae FPS games anymore


[21:47] <meleemario> Xenosaga is the perfect example of an interactive movie


[21:47] <Boilerplate> It's a dead genre like the Adventure games


[21:48] <meleemario> you should play Painkiller Boilerplate, its a modern FPS game thats as old school as Doom


[21:48] <meleemario> i havent played it, but i want to cos it seems fucking cool


[21:48] <Boilerplate> I think the last true FPS game was Quake and a lesser extent Quake 2


[21:48] <meleemario> what about Marathon?


[21:48] <Boilerplate> Well one flaw that Painkiller and Serious Sam has is that their linear games and they're not constructed as explorable maps


[21:49] <Boilerplate> Well Marathon too


[21:49] <meleemario> Blood is also a true FPS game too


[21:49] <meleemario> and Shadow Warrior


[21:49] <Boilerplate> Yep


[21:49] <Boilerplate> Well those games were the last of their kind


[21:49] <meleemario> Blood truly expands on the FPS genre IMO


[21:50] <Boilerplate> I wish FPS games were more like Blood than Painkiller/Serious Sam


[21:50] <Lunick> Serious Sam 3 can be explored a bit though


[21:50] <meleemario> Blood is a truly immersive game with alot to see, do, and kill


[21:51] <meleemario> not only that, it actually has a great story too


[21:51] <Boilerplate> But one I thing I notice that is missing in today's FPS games is connectivitty of the map, what's the last ime you remember opening up areas of the map which slowly becomes a deathmatch map overtime? That's how the erlier maps are so fun


[21:51] <meleemario> indeed


[21:52] <Boilerplate> What makes the maps from true FPS games so fun is that by end of the level you turn them into Deathmatch maps


[21:52] <Boilerplate> once you blown up the walls and such


[21:53] <meleemario> how do you mean?


[21:53] <meleemario> id like for you to elaborate on that


[21:54] <Boilerplate> I thought already explained, well take for instance E1M1 in Blood 1 which you blow up all the walls which makes the map more connected which they become almost like deathmatch maps


[21:54] <meleemario> OH!


[21:54] <meleemario> yes, i completely understand now


[21:55] <Boilerplate> Well if you notice playing the maps in Bloods they connect in the end


[21:55] <Boilerplate> which allows you to backtrack and collect the remaining ammo and secrets before going into the next level


[21:55] <meleemario> yes they do


[21:55] <Boilerplate> That's another I like about eariler FPS games


[21:56] <Boilerplate> well the maps is back tracking and collecting remaining ammo/health/secrets left behind which they'll be furthor use in later maps


[21:56] <Boilerplate> Well have you watched Revenants walkthroughs of Blood?


[21:57] <meleemario> i have not


[21:57] <meleemario> are they good?


[21:57] <Boilerplate> When he's killing all the enemies in the map he backtracks throughout the map to look for ammo/health/etc he left behind so they'll be in furthor use in the next map


[21:58] <meleemario> damn, thats a good idea


[21:58] <meleemario> i try to do that, but i often forget


[21:58] <Boilerplate> Well see for your self: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC82E2DB416547935


[21:59] <Boilerplate> I think it's important before moving on to the next map is to search the entire map to look for remaining ammo/health which would suite you for the next map.


[22:00] <meleemario> yes, get you all geared up for the next set of threats


[22:00] <meleemario> thats smart thinking


[22:01] <Boilerplate> Yep you gotta think and be smart before getting all excited and jumping into the next map


[22:01] <Boilerplate> which your ass might be handed to you if you don't


[22:01] <meleemario> indeed


[22:01] <Lunick> just give us a damn port already Jace :<


[22:01] <meleemario> Lunick: i know, right?!


[22:02] <meleemario> unfortunately, as Boilerplate has helped me realize, it may take some quite time for us to hear from Jace next


[22:02] <Lunick> I want to play Blood again, but at a decent resolution


[22:02] <Boilerplate> For example if you completed a map low on health and ammo before moving on to the next map you have to search every corner of the map for health and ammo before moving on to the next map so you have a better chance of suriving


[22:02] <meleemario> *quite some time


[22:02] <meleemario> exactly


[22:03] <meleemario> i suspect we may hear from Jace by the end of November at the earlier


[22:03] <meleemario> since the holiday season will be approaching by then, i figure a decision will be made


[22:03] <Boilerplate> Be patient, things do take time


[22:04] <meleemario> im being patient, im just telling Lunick


[22:05] <Boilerplate> Well it was directed towards everyone


[22:05] <Lunick> I'm patient too :P


[22:06] <Boilerplate> Anyway, As for Serious Sam it's more of a Parody game (well I notice that the sequels get progressively cartoonish has anyone noticed that?) and Painkiller is more of a arcade game but one thing it lacks is explorable connected maps like the eariler FPS games had. Although I haven't seen anyone attempt a old school connected map in a 3D engine though.


[22:06] <Boilerplate> Except for Quake and Quake 2


[22:06] <meleemario> Quake was awesome, very short though


[22:06] <meleemario> i went through all 4 episodes in 2 days over the summer


[22:06] <Lunick> Serious Sam 3 is cartoonish?


[22:07] <meleemario> i have the expansion packs now though


[22:07] <Boilerplate> Actually Serious Sam 3 was a Prequel


[22:07] <Boilerplate> I'm talking about chronologically


[22:07] <Lunick> It was


[22:08] <Boilerplate> By the time of Serious Sam 2 (the latest series in the time line) it was a full blown cartoon


[22:08] <Lunick> The new Painkiller wll be good too because it's on a better engine.


[22:08] <Lunick> I like to pretend Serious Sam 2 doesnt exist


[22:08] <Boilerplate> till the point of embarrsement


[22:08] <Boilerplate> Me too


[22:08] <Lunick> I own the Quake Expansions through Steam


[22:08] <Lunick> I would have pirated them otherwise :P


[22:09] <Boilerplate> Makes me wonder if Serious Sam 4 will be a E rated kids game if they keep following this fridge logic


[22:10] <Lunick> I actually have a spare key for Serious Sam 2 but no one wants it ahahaha


[22:11] <Boilerplate> Since Serious Sam 3 was realistic but the games got progressively cartoonish which by the time of Serious Sam 2 it's a full blown cartoon, I hope they don't consider taken down this path and making Serious Sam 4 even worse than 2 which would be a kids game


[22:11] <Lunick> It would become like World of Padman if they did :P


[22:14] <Boilerplate> Well I heard that That they're remaking Serious Sam 2 to be more realistic like SS3.


[22:14] <Boilerplate> So that gives us some hope


[22:16] <Lunick> Haven't heard about that one


[22:18] <meleemario> Lunick: id like to find some good Quake mods


[22:19] <Lunick> I did have some around here


[22:19] <Lunick> I wonder if they are still in my folder


[22:22] <Lunick> seems like the answer was 'had'


[22:25] <meleemario> damn


[22:25] <Boilerplate> I guess at any case I guess we'll never see a another True FPS game in the same style as Blood in the AAA department.


[22:26] <Boilerplate> Those days are long gone


[22:27] <meleemario> yep


[22:27] <meleemario> sad but true im afraid


[22:27] <Lunick> Rise of The Triad?


[22:29] <Boilerplate> I think that might be closest hope we have though


[22:29] <Lunick> Interceptor will work on other projects after this too ;)


[22:31] <Boilerplate> Only if they do the same with Blood since they're the only developers around these days who can handle it...I think the rights of the Blood series needs to be given to Apogee


[22:32] <Boilerplate> Well since Apogee and 3D Realms first created it before it was given to Monolith


[22:33] <Lunick> Indeed


[22:33] <Lunick> But we are thinking of different Apogee's ;)


[22:34] <Boilerplate> Although if 3D Realms released it I think it would be a different game (I Think we would have not gotten Caleb) or I might be wrong


[22:34] <Boilerplate> Since they did went through protagonist revisions before coming up with Caleb


[22:35] <Boilerplate> Since I think one concept in the Alpha version it was about a Fanatic taking revenge against his former cult and the levels were more like Heretics. Well the Fanatic sprite could habve been also a place holder


[22:36] <Boilerplate> I think Caleb and his gunslinger background only came until much later in development


[22:37] <Boilerplate> Or maybe they did have a Gunslinger protagonist planned all along.


[22:40] <Boilerplate> Actual information on the Alpha: http://www.the-postmortem.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1402


[22:57] <Boilerplate> Oh another I forgot to add, FPS games don't need cutscenes either in the middle of the map


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[23:00] * Corpus_C has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)


[23:05] <Boilerplate> Oh another thing I noticed I forgot to mention....todays "FPS" games are less like shooters but more like taking the "Shooter" aspect away you get "First Person perpective game". That's what today's "FPS" games are they're no longer shooters but more like First Person interactive movies.


[23:05] <meleemario> yes, thats also true


[23:05] <meleemario> good point


[23:05] <meleemario> less bullshit, more shooting


[23:05] <meleemario> thats what we really need


[23:07] <Boilerplate> Yep


[23:07] <Boilerplate> They don't make actual true shooters anymore


[23:07] <Lunick> Poor Hard Reset


[23:07] <Boilerplate> While ROTT is the only hope we have


[23:08] <Lunick> Hopefully people can actually run the game :P


[23:08] <Boilerplate> "Hard Reset" tries so hard to sound like a game that is attempting to take FPS games 'back to their roots'


[23:09] <Boilerplate> Well sounds like


[23:09] <meleemario> Boilerplate: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FacklerScaleOfFPSRealism


[23:12] <Boilerplate> I guess that describes everything I've talked about


[23:13] <Boilerplate> Yep


[23:13] <Boilerplate> That's exactly what I mean


[23:14] <meleemario> yep


[23:14] <meleemario> we need to go back to unrealistic FPS games like Doom and Quake


[23:14] <meleemario> those games were more fun


[23:15] <meleemario> Doom embodies everything i love in video games


[23:15] <meleemario> now everyone is obsessed with flashy graphics, and forgetting that a game needs good gameplay


[23:15] <Boilerplate> I think it's rather disturbing that modern FPS games are trying to imiatie real life once you think about it


[23:15] <meleemario> it is


[23:16] <Boilerplate> Especially scroll down to real life and it links to "War is Hell"


[23:16] <Lunick> It's easier to emulate something that is like real life than to make something completely unrealistic


[23:17] <meleemario> yes, i saw that


[23:18] <Lunick> http://www.wrackgame.com/ ?


[23:21] <Boilerplate> You know, it makes me wonder a bit that FPS games are Socio/Pychopath 'similutators' (well the protagonists we play as are obvious socio/pychopaths if they enjoy killing others so much or they have to) and making the games more realistic makes it even worse. Well point is if you try to make a game too realistic and you play as a normal person...killing other people and witnessing violence would only tramuatize you and


[23:21] <Boilerplate>  eat away from your samnity which is why the whole "Realism" pursuit is rather disturbing


[23:23] <Boilerplate> I hope I didn't sound like Jack Thompson there though


[23:24] <Boilerplate> when comparing FPS games in general as "Socio/Pychopath" similuators


[23:26] <Boilerplate> Although I'm just basing what I read in the "War is Hell" section with this passage: When this trope is in play, war is a hellish, traumatizing nightmare, and anyone who comes out of it alive will end up a Shell-Shocked Veteran. Those who take pleasure in it are Ax Crazy Blood Knights or worse


[23:28] <Boilerplate> Although the main point though is that they're games is they're not supposed to be realisitic at all...but making them realistic though actually get's disturbing once you think about it


[23:29] <Boilerplate> Well point is, would a shell shocked war veteran play a FPS game especially CoD?


[23:29] <Boilerplate> Most likely not


[23:30] <Boilerplate> Another point too is that it sickens me that war is glorified in games like in CoD, Battlefield, etc which the fact that the games try to be realistic is much more disturbing once you think about it


[23:33] <meleemario> well sure, but no matter how realistic the game is, you have to be able to discern fiction from reality too


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[23:37] <meleemario> ill never see the appeal in war shooters such as COD


[23:45] <Boilerplate> Shooters are meant to be fictional, not war similuators


[23:47] <Boilerplate> Of course it's fun playing as a Psychopath like Caleb anyways


[23:48] <Boilerplate> Well the developers meant the Protagonist to be Evil actually


[23:48] <Boilerplate> I guess it's a nice expiriment of a playing a evil character while the other protagonists are more like doing their job


[23:49] <Boilerplate> Well maybe Lo Wang is another exception but he's not a Pycho but more like bent on revenge on his former master


[23:50] <Boilerplate> While the rest of the protagonists are more like a clean up crew (Duke Nukem, Doom Guy, Quke Guy, etc)


[23:54] <meleemario> well, the Doom Guy sortve becomes a hero


[23:54] <meleemario> in Doom 64, he stays in hell to ensure no demon ever rises again


[23:56] <Boilerplate> Well anyway, another disturbing thing about CoD is that kids play it (In fact I know a neighbor of mine who has been playing CoD since he was 5 well he's current 8)


[23:56] <Lunick> Doom 64 is fun


[23:56] <Lunick> All the colours seem weird though


[23:57] <Boilerplate> Although I did introduce him into FPS games what I grew up with but he never took any interest in it


[23:57] <Boilerplate> Doom 64 was originally going to be a stand alone game but later turned into Doom


[23:57] <Boilerplate> I heard or read somewhere


[23:58] <meleemario> fucking love Doom 64


[23:58] <Boilerplate> Although it's such a shame that there is monsters missing in there like the Chaingunner, Revenant, Archvile, Spidermastermind.


[23:58] <Boilerplate> We can only rely on the Doom community for that


[23:59] <Lunick> I'd like to see them added into something like the Doom 64 EX port


[00:00] <Boilerplate> Infact people in the Doom community restored the reloading/pumping/etc animations (or rather made them from scratch) for the shotgun, SSG, PLasma Rifle.


[00:00] <Boilerplate> If you visit the ZDoom forum and it's there somewhere


[00:01] <Boilerplate> Well I can go find it, hang on