re: Stag; interesting subject without intersting choice

[16:48] ApplepieFTW: with all of this I mean
[16:49] ApplepieFTW: that you can say all you want about
[16:49] ApplepieFTW: um how do I say this
[16:49] ApplepieFTW: well e/g any examples of
[16:49] ApplepieFTW: "both players had a choice"
[16:49] ApplepieFTW: "my moves made it so the opponent could force a negative "50/50""
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: are without admitting the fact that
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: WHEN you get trapped
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: stag is uncompetitive
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: because you are trapped
[16:50] -shrang: 9.9
[16:50] -shrang: have you even read anything I've written
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: and you fail to recognise how this limits your choice
[16:50] ApplepieFTW: (I have, I disagree with most of it)
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: bar the fact that this suspect is flawed bc
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: "to a degree it can be considered UNNCOMPETITVE"
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: which yeah
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: that makes no sense
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: bad definition
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: but still, because a certain amount of 'choice' was still involved
[16:51] ApplepieFTW: doesnt mean
[16:52] ApplepieFTW: my choice is still limited
[16:52] ApplepieFTW: at a certain moment
[16:52] -shrang: I'm just going to say this to you what I said to melee
[16:52] -shrang: "You seem to have trouble grasping the concept that just because you can switch does not automatically mean you have control, and via the same logic, just because you can't switch doesn't automatically mean you've lost control."
[16:52] ApplepieFTW: so not being able to do something
[16:52] ApplepieFTW: isnt losing control ?
[16:53] -shrang: it isn't losing control of the game in the grand sense, no
[16:53] ApplepieFTW: but how can you deny
[16:53] -shrang: if you're going to tell me that you're going to be swept if you've lost the chance to switch well then you'd have lost already anyway
[16:54] -shrang: I've said it before in the past
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: stag removes such an important factor (switching) and fucks up my way to have a fair game without stag always gaining an upper '50/50 advantage'
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: hm ok so what youre saying is
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: you dont think
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: stag removes ENOUGH choice
[16:54] -shrang: I'm not going to deny that you lose the ability to switch for one scnario
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: for it to be uncompetitive
[16:54] -shrang: scenario*
[16:54] ApplepieFTW: because if so, thats the only argument I agree with
[16:55] ApplepieFTW: and its a fair one
[16:55] -shrang: but to say that you've lost all control of the game is just ridiculous hyperbole
[16:55] ApplepieFTW: I just so happen to disagree with it, and value the things stag removes from competitive play more than you do
[16:55] ApplepieFTW: yeah thats true
[16:55] ApplepieFTW: but its enough for me
[16:55] ApplepieFTW: to say it removes so much control/autonomy that I find it uncompetitive
[16:56] ApplepieFTW: and you dont, thats fair I guess
[16:56] -shrang: regardless
[16:56] ApplepieFTW: but any other arguments are usually just not true, in my view
[16:56] -shrang: it still doesn't take away from the fact
[16:56] -shrang: that all the decisions made are made through human decisions
[16:57] -shrang: it's a result of you and your opponent
[16:57] -shrang: there's no-one to blame but the players
[16:57] ApplepieFTW: but this is without admitting
[16:57] -shrang: either "you fucked up" or "he outplayed you" or a combination of both
[16:58] ApplepieFTW: that stag is sort of the factor that made me less likely to outplay the opponent (negative 50/50), and then this COMBINED with the fact I cant correct it (even less choice)
[16:58] ApplepieFTW: is why I view stag as I do
[16:58] ApplepieFTW: yeah maybe you 'fucked up'
[16:58] ApplepieFTW: but thing with tag is
[16:58] ApplepieFTW: you cant 1) correct it (trapping) and 2) trapping
[16:59] -shrang: can you correct something when you've say
[16:59] -shrang: killed a ghostceus with bolt strike and your opponent's rp groudon can now clean your team?
[16:59] -shrang: thing is
[16:59] ApplepieFTW: no you cant
[16:59] ApplepieFTW: but
[16:59] -shrang: if you have something trapped
[17:00] -shrang: either
[17:00] -shrang: 1) you've lost that pokemon but you can still take evasive measures to win the game (which is still very possible)
[17:00] -shrang: or 2) you've got into the situation where you're forced to lose, which is no different from pretty much any other "endgame" scenario
[17:01] ApplepieFTW: the difference with a tag scenario is
[17:01] -shrang: again I won't deny that if you've lost something due to s-tag, that you are more likely to lose
[17:01] -shrang: but it says nothng
[17:01] -shrang: to suggest that s-tag is causative factor in your loss
[17:02] ApplepieFTW: yeah you just listed the ONE scenario where stag is less of an issue because youre comparing it to something that is the same
[17:02] ApplepieFTW: aka: the best move wins either way
[17:02] ApplepieFTW: but in that scenario
[17:02] ApplepieFTW: lets say you get trapped, or can get trapped
[17:03] ApplepieFTW: there is still this uncompetitive factor, if you need the mon that is gonna get trapped (ogre vs grasseus)
[17:03] ApplepieFTW: and that may be late game
[17:03] ApplepieFTW: but in doesnt change stag mechanics
[17:03] ApplepieFTW: (wait lemme get back what you said)
[17:03] ApplepieFTW: (i might be imagining things here)
[17:04] ApplepieFTW: [16:59] -shrang: killed a ghostceus with bolt strike and your opponent's rp groudon can now clean your team?
[17:04] ApplepieFTW: no you cant correct this late game
[17:04] ApplepieFTW: however what you say, because this is something you cant correct
[17:04] ApplepieFTW: stag isnt uncompetitive because it is something you cant correct either ?
[17:05] -shrang: no
[17:05] ApplepieFTW: well if you've been forced in this position, through a series of plays
[17:05] ApplepieFTW: yeah that is indeed up to both players
[17:05] ApplepieFTW: and no, that scenario isnt uncompetitive
[17:05] -shrang: indeed, that scenario isn't uncompetitive
[17:05] ApplepieFTW: the difference with stag is, that its not only something "not correctable"
[17:06] ApplepieFTW: (struggling to find words, one sec)
[17:07] -shrang: I don't see why you have to have something that's correctable to avoid being uncompetitive
[17:07] -shrang: like if I lure out a key counter (I'm the one making the "good" play here)
[17:07] ApplepieFTW: you dont per se need to "correct it"
[17:07] -shrang: without you knowing about it
[17:07] ApplepieFTW: you just need it to be something that doesnt limit the way I can play the game
[17:07] -shrang: and I kill it
[17:07] -shrang: can you correct it?
[17:08] ApplepieFTW: no, but me sending out that mon
[17:08] ApplepieFTW: was my own choice
[17:08] ApplepieFTW: my decision
[17:08] -shrang: yes
[17:08] ApplepieFTW: can I switch to a counter of a stag mon?
[17:08] ApplepieFTW: no, I cant switch
[17:08] -shrang: so was whatever pokemon you sent into s-tag
[17:09] -shrang: whether it was a conscious decision or not
[17:09] -shrang: you were still responsible for having that pokemon in at that time
[17:09] -shrang: I guess you could argue exceptions like "when a 6% burned dialga roared in your grassceus, it dies, then s-tag comes in"
[17:10] ApplepieFTW: yeah but the fact that I am resposible for having that mon in, say palkia which I had to swicth into a kyogre which can get trapped after, doesnt at all deny
[17:10] -shrang: but that's still a very small portion of scenarios
[17:10] ApplepieFTW: that after that mon, lets say kills the kyogre,
[17:10] ApplepieFTW: the stag use traps my pokemon
[17:10] ApplepieFTW: and limits my ability to make an interesting decision ?
[17:11] ApplepieFTW: hence: uncompetitive element I wish to be removed from competitive play
[17:11] ApplepieFTW: because it limits my ability to play.
[17:11] ApplepieFTW: this isnt even talking about any 50/50's happening before hand
[17:11] -shrang: is this scenario any different to say
[17:11] -shrang: forcing you to kill a rayquaza so I can bring geoxern in
[17:12] -shrang: or something like that?
[17:12] -shrang: kill a ray with for example
[17:12] -shrang: scarf zekrom again
[17:12] -shrang: or even say
[17:12] ApplepieFTW: well if you've forced me into a losing scenario (cant bolt strike, have to outrage)
[17:12] ApplepieFTW: you have outplayed me
[17:12] ApplepieFTW: buuuut
[17:12] ApplepieFTW: in the turns BEFORE that
[17:12] -shrang: force you to kill blaziken with ekiller
[17:13] -shrang: and bring in mega gengar
[17:13] ApplepieFTW: it was my own interesting choice
[17:13] ApplepieFTW: to "get outplayed"
[17:13] ApplepieFTW: or erm, yours to outplay me
[17:13] ApplepieFTW: because there was no limiting factor
[17:13] -shrang: you know I should probably start steering away from "outplay"
[17:14] -shrang: because it really is a combination of both players that decide the fate of the game in a lot of circumstances
[17:14] ApplepieFTW: (nah not if its relevant to enforcing a stag scenario)
[17:14] ApplepieFTW: yeah
[17:14] ApplepieFTW: but what im saying is, stag limits my ability to succesfuly compete in such a scenario
[17:14] ApplepieFTW: the "combination of both players"
[17:15] -shrang: I think this is where the teambuilding factor comes into play
[17:15] ApplepieFTW: but yeah everything I've heard you say so far (in the thread, or here) is right you just factor in stag wrong
[17:20] -shrang: don't forget you also have the opportunity in teambuilding to limit how much s-tag affects you
[17:20] ApplepieFTW: yeah buuut
[17:20] ApplepieFTW: do ANY countermeasures I take
[17:20] -shrang: and no, I'm not trying to say to make your entire team s-tag proof
[17:20] -shrang: that's not necessary
[17:20] ApplepieFTW: limit how stag is uncompetitive
[17:21] -shrang: uh yes
[17:21] -shrang: if you can kill the s-tag user before they kill you, you've beaten it
[17:21] -shrang: if you can stop gothitelle setting up, you've beaten goth (in most cases)
[17:21] ApplepieFTW: so its not competitive vs that mon
[17:21] ApplepieFTW: and no uncomp. in THAT secnario
[17:21] -shrang: if you have u-turn you don't really care
[17:21] ApplepieFTW: lets say mgar vs deo-a
[17:22] ApplepieFTW: it still is uncom. in that secnario (hint hint)
[17:22] ApplepieFTW: but yeah
[17:22] ApplepieFTW: mgar cant do anything with it
[17:22] ApplepieFTW: and you best play is to click pboost anyway
[17:22] -shrang: well if we are using the given definition
[17:22] -shrang: that melee provides
[17:23] -shrang: (however flawed it is)
[17:23] -shrang: is that if it has no impact then it can't be considered uncompetitive, right?
[17:23] -shrang: that's on the extreme end of the argument
[17:23] ApplepieFTW: before I say yes to this
[17:23] ApplepieFTW: swagger wasnt uncompetitive either
[17:23] ApplepieFTW: because your groudon
[17:23] ApplepieFTW: could outspeed sawgkeys eight ??
[17:23] ApplepieFTW: and kill it ?
[17:24] -shrang: uuuuh no
[17:24] ApplepieFTW: swagger could still, in another scenario,
[17:24] ApplepieFTW: be uncomp.
[17:24] -shrang: you do realised how swagger was abused in there right?
[17:24] -shrang: and groudon outspeeding was meaningless
[17:24] ApplepieFTW: yeah, switch out (a very important mechanic, oh what could the swagger user have done without this ability!)
[17:24] ApplepieFTW: or errrm
[17:24] ApplepieFTW: yeah derp flawed exaple
[17:25] -shrang: I was more referring to the fact that keys had prankster, lol
[17:25] ApplepieFTW: lets say your magic bounce pokemon
[17:25] -shrang: I guess the better one you can say
[17:25] -shrang: is that groudon had lum berry
[17:25] ApplepieFTW: yeah lets imagine xatu
[17:25] -shrang: for example
[17:25] ApplepieFTW: or yeah lum
[17:25] -shrang: thing is
[17:25] -shrang: I know lots of people have tried to compare the two
[17:25] -shrang: and completely miss the differences between s-tag and swagger
[17:26] -shrang: like
[17:26] ApplepieFTW: enlighten me
[17:26] -shrang: look at how many pokemon can use and abuse swagger
[17:26] -shrang: and how many ways are possible
[17:26] -shrang: and then look at how many ways s-tag can be abused
[17:26] -shrang: not to downplay s-tag's worth
[17:26] -shrang: but I really don't think they can be compared
[17:26] ApplepieFTW: the amount of ways do not relate to its uncompetitive effect n__n
[17:27] ApplepieFTW: what does relate is the comparison of the degree to which both remove choice
[17:27] -shrang: it would if you're arguing from the perspective "to a degree in which it can be considered uncompetitive"
[17:27] ApplepieFTW: I am
[17:27] -shrang: secondly, like I've mentioned already
[17:27] -shrang: s-tag is reliant on human decisions
[17:28] -shrang: swagger is human independent
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: I could 'prevent' swagger from 'being uncomeptitve" too
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: by doubling into xatu, or w/e
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: and yeah
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: there you are right
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: that swagger
[17:28] ApplepieFTW: is a dice roll
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: but what matters is
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: not the way swagger works
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: but the effect it has
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: it removes my choice
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: stag also removes choice, it forces a negative 50/50, a way that is much less favorable
[17:29] ApplepieFTW: scenario>way*
[17:30] ApplepieFTW: and yeah, I and YOU are the one clicking buttons in a tag scenario
[17:30] ApplepieFTW: the games does that for us in a swagger scenario
[17:30] ApplepieFTW: doesnt change that, in the end, my choice is limited to such a degree I consider it uncompetitive
[17:32] ApplepieFTW: and if for you that "degree" is different, then ok fair enuf but
[17:32] ApplepieFTW: I see no way it could possibly be
[17:33] ApplepieFTW: (also can I post this in the stag thread ?)
[17:37] -shrang: sure thing
[17:38] -shrang: anyway I need to go to bed
[17:38] -shrang: if you want to continue this discussion we can do it tomorrow
[17:39] ApplepieFTW: ah k
[17:39] ApplepieFTW: ah yeah its l8 for you
[17:39] ApplepieFTW: well gn :]
[17:39] -shrang: bye