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My discussion with Jonathan Toomim in "MinerInWorld" WeChat

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Jan 20th, 2016
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  1. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:19:32:guy, are you in here?
  2. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:19:46:Hi Jonathan
  3. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:19:54:Thanks for logging in
  4. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:20:01:Care to discuss possible governance change ?
  5. 1|申屠青春:2016-01-20 06:21:39:@jl2012 那是反社会了，马上被弹劾。
  6. 1|申屠青春:2016-01-20 06:22:05:下台
  7. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:22:46:in public?
  8. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:22:53:Yes
  9. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:22:55:i'm open to a possible governance change
  10. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:22:58:The only right way to do it :)
  11. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:23:06:olivier will probaby get annoyed with me for doing it in public
  12. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:23:08:and marshall
  13. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:23:11:and mike
  14. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:23:14:please do
  15. 1|teksongbu:2016-01-20 06:23:19:why?
  16. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:23:22:Thay's the correct way to do it, IMHO
  17. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:23:34:Bitcoin world should be open free and clear of intrigues
  18. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:23:40:well, because i didn't ask them or talk to them first?
  19. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:23:57:well, what model do you guys like for governance in a bitcoin client?
  20. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:24:11:let's go first to the origins of Classic
  21. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:24:12:Ok ?
  22. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:24:13:i think that the model should have user input as an important feature
  23. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:24:32:i want to make sure that what happened with core doesn't happen again
  24. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:24:38:so Classic
  25. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:24:49:sure...
  26. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:25:00:so i think that bitcoin should have bigger blocks
  27. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:25:11:Who set the line between features selected by technical people to features selected by the user ?
  28. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:25:21:But let's get to the origins first.
  29. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:25:29:and i started doing some coding and testing toward that end a while ago, then started asking people how much bigger they wanted their blocks to be
  30. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:25:41:(Later I'll give full discklaimers about my opinions)
  31. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:25:56:i did this after HK
  32. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:26:05:Mid December ?
  33. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:26:07:visited miners in china and pools, and also asked a few others by email
  34. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:26:10:yes, mid december
  35. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:26:22:at the same time, i read about segwit, and commented on the email list, and tried to understand it
  36. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:26:34:i didn't ask the miners about segwit, and i didn't tell them what i thought about it
  37. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:26:43:Ok
  38. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:26:54:it sounded like they wanted a blocksize increase, and had wanted one for a long time
  39. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:26:55:So you discussed Block Size increase vs Transactions Fees market ?
  40. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:27:06:i did discuss the fee market idea
  41. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:27:13:with both bitmain and btcc
  42. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:27:29:and i think also with bitfury a little, but alex petrov disagreed with me about it
  43. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:27:43:i think that the fee market is not a good business strategy for miners
  44. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:27:49:increasing fee revenue is important
  45. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:28:01:but it's usually easier for a business to increase volume than to increase fees
  46. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:28:20:so i think that scaling the on-chain capacity should be a bigger priority
  47. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:28:42:right now, mining costs about $3000 per block in electricity and other costs
  48. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:28:55:at $0.05/kWh and 350 MW, I think
  49. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:29:11:and fees are around $0.15/kB
  50. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:29:26:so i think that if we got to 20 MB blocks, we could pay for 100% of the current mining network.
  51. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:29:35:we can't do that overnight, but i think we can do it in about 4 years
  52. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:29:40:or maybe a little longer
  53. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:29:50:and that will make it much easier for us to survive the 2020 halving to 6.25 btc
  54. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:30:03:i'm a miner too, of course
  55. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:30:12:anyway, so that's my reasoning and my motivation
  56. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:30:23:understood
  57. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:30:26:What happened later ?
  58. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:30:41:so i talked with btcc and bitmain, and collected their opinions on the blocksize hard fork
  59. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:30:44:and also everyone else
  60. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:30:58:and published this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cg9Qo9Vl5PdJYD4EiHnIGMV3G48pWmcWI3NFoKKfIzU/edit#gid=0
  61. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:31:18:http://imgur.com/3fceWVb for those in china
  62. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:31:51:the next goal was to see what users wanted
  63. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:32:07:if the users wanted the same thing as miners, then it should be pretty straightforward to do the fork, right?
  64. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:32:43:my brother and his friend from college had been working on a website for years to collect and visualize opinions from people, so we decided to set that up for this
  65. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:32:45:https://bitcoin.consider.it/
  66. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:33:04:we found that users want much bigger blocks than miners do
  67. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:33:25:most users who participated actually supported BIP101 or Bitcoin Unlimited, which was a big surprise
  68. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:33:46:i mostly advertised on reddit, and most of them came from /r/bitcoin
  69. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:34:00:(Maybe the one that support block size are the more vocal ones, the ones that will go out and actively vote)
  70. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:34:05:maybe
  71. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:34:26:but my results are also similar to the voting that we see on reddit/r/bitcoin, in which small block people always get voted down heavily
  72. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:34:26:In any case,
  73. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:34:30:also, there's http://blog.genesis-mining.com/survey-results-increasing-the-blocksize
  74. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:34:32:The poll was few hundreds the most
  75. 1|Johnson Lau:2016-01-20 06:34:44:@申屠青春 他下台了但还是有最多算力, 那怎辦?
  76. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:35:04:which showed that 87% of people thought that the blocksize increase was a good idea in february 2015
  77. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:35:18:What was the poll size ?
  78. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:35:28:for consider.it, or for genesis mining?
  79. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:35:34:both
  80. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:35:41:143 votes on genesis mining
  81. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:36:15:consider.it has about 135 votes on the BIP101 question right now
  82. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:36:22:ok
  83. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:36:26:different questions have different numbers of answers
  84. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:36:33:I want to summarize up to this point:
  85. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:36:38:give me a moment
  86. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:36:46:You started to do Core development
  87. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:36:58:You decided that you support block size increase by hard fork
  88. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:37:03:You want to a trip to China
  89. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:37:30:In which you discussed block size increase but you didn't discuss SegWit
  90. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:37:49:Your brother did user poll, Genesis Mining did user poll
  91. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:37:57:Less then 200 people each
  92. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:37:59:genesis mining did a user poll 1 year ago
  93. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:38:07:June 2015
  94. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:38:26:And the method to advertize these polls were mostly reddit
  95. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:38:28:oh, right, european date format
  96. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:38:35:Correct up to this point ?
  97. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:38:46:genesis mining's poll was their customers
  98. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:38:54:ok
  99. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:38:58:my poll was mostly reddit, but i also posted on the bitcoin-dev list
  100. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:39:16:(yes, I saw it. And your google xls)
  101. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:39:23:(great job on both, btw)
  102. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:39:29:(ty)
  103. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:39:31:What happened after you went back from China ?
  104. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:39:44:well, it snowed a lot
  105. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:40:06:(I don't disagree. Will share my views later)
  106. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:40:07:and i took a few days to catch up on sleep and take care of business at the mine
  107. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:40:14::)
  108. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:40:40:then around the 27th, i started working more on expanding the consider.it polls and trying to organize people
  109. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:40:48:i also started asking miners about segwit around that time
  110. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:41:09:because i was starting to understand what it meant, and thought that miners had enough time to review it
  111. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:41:27:and started planning the next steps
  112. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:41:37:i also got into preparing a BIP for blocktorrent
  113. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:41:41:and spent a couple of days on that
  114. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:41:49:the BIP is about half-done with the first draft now
  115. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:42:06:(I told back in November that I liked blocktorrent)
  116. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:42:11:and i was planning on writing code for a blocksize increase hardfork and submitting it to core
  117. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:43:07:all of the miners i talked to said they wanted a blocksize increase, and none of them seemed very excited about segwit during the miner-dev meeting in HK, so i thought that a blocksize increase was probably the way forward
  118. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:43:12:You intend to propose PR to Core ?
  119. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:43:39:and when i asked them about segwit afterwards, it sounded like they preferred a blocksize increase before segwit, and several preferred segwit as a hardfork not a softfork
  120. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:43:43:(not surprising to me. It's hard topic)
  121. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:43:45:yes, that was the plan
  122. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:43:53:PR and BIP to core first
  123. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:43:57:i was expecting rejection
  124. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:01:Ok
  125. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:08:But you wanted to do it anyhow ?
  126. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:11:To practice the process ?
  127. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:44:16:and after that, i was expecting to create an alternate client, and try to get support for it
  128. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:16:Or as a statement ?
  129. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:44:32:no, i thought it was the right thing to do
  130. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:44:35:and i wanted to be sure
  131. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:41:Have you made your plans public at that point ?
  132. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:44:46:and i also promised to bitmain that i would submit a PR to core
  133. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:48:regarding making alternat eclient
  134. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:44:50:client
  135. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:44:58:no, not at that time
  136. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:45:11:i had announced that i supported a 3 MB can kick
  137. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:45:11:BitmainTech asked that you will submit the pull request to Core ?
  138. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:45:20:a few days after the HK conference
  139. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:45:25:(Yes, I read it on the mailing list)
  140. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:45:37:(Which got zero reply)
  141. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:45:46:and i'm pretty sure all of the miners know i was a dev for XT
  142. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:45:55:yes, zero reply, just like the consensus census
  143. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:46:00:which was *weird*
  144. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:46:07:a couple of people emailed me backchannel
  145. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:46:15:I would have been furstrated in your shoes
  146. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:46:18:and told me they didn't want to reply on the list because they were afraid of what would happen
  147. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:46:36:Please explain this point
  148. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:46:37:when that happened, i basically said screw it, i'm going to reddit, and talking to the users instead of core
  149. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:47:19:a couple of people saw my post on the email list with the consensus census, and thought it was great, but did not feel comfortable saying so in public
  150. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:47:30:Why ?
  151. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:47:33:Fear of what ?
  152. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:47:43:criticism? ostracism?
  153. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:47:51:maybe censorship?
  154. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:00:Ok
  155. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:02:Please continue
  156. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:48:04:i can ask the people if they're willing to come forward and say who they are
  157. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:48:12:but i won't say more right now than that
  158. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:12:No need
  159. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:17:sure
  160. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:18:sec
  161. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:48:29:so no response on bitcoin-dev, so i just pushed it on reddit instead
  162. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:48:35:and asked for people to vote on bitcoin.consider.it
  163. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:37:Up to this point, end of December, you didn't reveal your plans to anyone ?
  164. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:48:47:and tried to get companies and miners to participate in bitcoin.consider.it
  165. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:48:48:regardign separate client ?
  166. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:49:35:well, in my conversation with btcc, they said that an alternate client was an option without me asking
  167. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:49:40:but that XT was not an option
  168. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:49:48:ok
  169. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:50:06:when i talked with bitmain, they said that they wanted to try to get Core to do it first, and if Core didn't do it, they weren't sure what they would be willing to do
  170. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:50:30:ok
  171. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:50:40:So BitmainTech wanted initially to work through Core
  172. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:50:45:yes
  173. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:50:47:funny
  174. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:50:48:ok
  175. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:50:52:they switched positions
  176. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:50:53:Why ?
  177. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:50:57:Indeed
  178. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:51:01:What happened next ?
  179. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:51:45:let's see... i wanted to get opinions from BW.com
  180. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:51:51:because they were missing from my original census
  181. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:52:04:You travel back to China or via emails / chats ?
  182. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:52:13:when i posted the census results into this channel, jack liao of lightning asic offered to help, and so did marshall long
  183. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:52:23:ok
  184. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:52:32:and they connected me with yao
  185. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:52:32:when was it ?
  186. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:52:39:about dec 27th?
  187. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:52:45:ok
  188. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:52:54:it was the day after i first published
  189. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:53:03:got it
  190. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:53:04:i got a response through marshall that looked machine translated
  191. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:53:17:and through jack, i got in contact with yao directly
  192. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:53:25:我的中文是不好
  193. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:53:51:但是我们用一点点中文一起了
  194. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:54:06:my chinese is pretty bad, but good enough to make things work a little bit
  195. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:54:10:i got his statement in chinese
  196. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:54:16:Ok
  197. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:54:19:and got a friend to translate it into english properly
  198. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:54:25:and published that
  199. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:54:29:Yao from bw.com ?
  200. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:54:41:对 correct
  201. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:55:33:oh yes, so the consensus census seemed to show that 2-4-8 was the best option
  202. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:55:36:or maybe 2-4
  203. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:55:44:so that's what i told i would implement to bitmain and btcc
  204. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:55:53:because it hadn't been implemented yet fully
  205. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:55:53:ok
  206. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:56:04:no O(n^2) protection in rusty's attempt, for example
  207. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:56:21:then on friday, i think dec 31st, i got a skype message from marshall
  208. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:56:22:understood
  209. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:56:32:saying that he and olivier janssens wanted to talk with me
  210. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:56:34:Marshall Long ?
  211. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:56:39:yes, marshall long
  212. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:56:42:ok
  213. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:56:57:the next day, a water pipe froze and burst right above my main switchgear
  214. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:57:01:(I need to give disclaimers regardign both, will do it later)
  215. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:57:08:ouch!
  216. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:09:and we had to shut off our mine for 4 hours
  217. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:17:minor damage, surprisingly
  218. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:35:but maybe 10k liters of water was dumped in the room
  219. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:41:oh well
  220. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:48:that kept me distracted for a few days
  221. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:57:54:then i talked with marshall and olivier
  222. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:58:02:What did they want / suggested ?
  223. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:58:16:and they said they wanted to make a client that would be a 2MB hardfork
  224. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:58:26:and they asked me if i was interested
  225. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:58:27:Just that ?
  226. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:58:35:"Simple" 2MB Hard Fork ?
  227. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:58:36:i told them that i already wanted to do that
  228. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:58:38:Nothing else ?
  229. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:59:01:they told me that they didn't like how core was controlling bitcoin
  230. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 06:59:09:i agreed, i don't like how core was controlling bitcoin either
  231. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 06:59:19:Please explain what they said
  232. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:00:13:they thought that it seemed that everybody could get behind 2 MB, so if we got it done and got a good team around the project, we might be able to break the monopoly of core, or something like that
  233. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:00:54:they were in a more us-vs-them mindset than i was, though
  234. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:00:59:which i didn't really like, but i understood
  235. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:01:15:it was already in December 31 call or in the 2nd call ?
  236. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:01:19:the bitcoin community has been very antagonistic recently, and a lot of people had bad feelings toward the core team
  237. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:01:29:no, i only got a text on skype on dec 31
  238. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:01:36:Oh
  239. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:01:38:jan 1st was the pipe burst
  240. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:01:46:So it was on Jan 2nd ?
  241. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:01:48:so this conversation was probably jan 2 or 3rd
  242. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:01:52:The actually voice call ?
  243. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:01:55:yes
  244. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:01:59:ok
  245. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:02:09:And you say that the tone was us-vs-them
  246. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:02:17:And "break core monopoly" on Bitcoin ?
  247. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:02:36:well, more us-vs-them than i am
  248. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:02:43:i'm a pretty nice and cooperative guy
  249. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:02:49:(yes, I know)
  250. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:02:56:Who lead the call ?
  251. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:02:59:Janseens ?
  252. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:03:00:i don't like dog-eats-dog politics
  253. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:03:01:Marshall ?
  254. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:03:10:a bit of each
  255. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:03:11:(same here)
  256. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:03:15:ok
  257. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:03:19:Another question
  258. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:03:23:dogs don't taste that good
  259. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:03:31::)
  260. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:03:41:but i wanted to write the code anyway
  261. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:03:59:and i thought that an opposition client would make core come to their senses, and agree to what the miners wanted
  262. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:04:02:In retrospect, do you think that it was more important to them to do 2MB increase or "break core monopoly" ?
  263. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:04:08:and then we could collaborate, and it would be great
  264. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:04:22:(I have followup question later)
  265. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:04:33:i'm not sure
  266. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:04:47:i know the 2-4-8 or 2-4 or 2 was more important to me, so that's what i heard
  267. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:05:06:but my brother and i had had ideas for how bitcoin could be governed in a more balanced way for a long time
  268. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:05:10:(Will give my interpretration later)
  269. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:05:12:we wanted to bring democracy into bitcoin
  270. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:05:24:sec
  271. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:05:28:At that point,
  272. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:05:34:You said two opposing thing
  273. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:05:43:On one hand you said (your words):
  274. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:02:- "i thought that an opposition client would make core come to their senses, and agree to what the miners wanted" and "and then we could collaborate, and it would be great"
  275. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:08:And othe other hand you said:
  276. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:06:10:increasing the blocksize was the most important thing for me, but i was also interested in trying to add some democracy to bitcoin
  277. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:06:15:i had both interests
  278. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:22:- but my brother and i had had ideas for how bitcoin could be governed in a more balanced way for a long time
  279. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:26:I understand
  280. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:06:33:i think that consider.it has a lot of potential to help settle arguments between developers with data
  281. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:34:Which one was more important to you ?
  282. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:06:39:block size
  283. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:06:41:definitely
  284. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:44:(let's discuss what if laters)
  285. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:48:Ok
  286. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:06:51:so, I repeat
  287. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:07:12:For you, in the beginning of Janurary it was more important to push Core to do 2MB
  288. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:07:23:well, i wanted 2-4-8 at that time
  289. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:07:27:Then to actually force a differnet client via HF
  290. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:07:31:because that seemed to be what the miners wanted
  291. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:07:38:yes
  292. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:07:42:Ok
  293. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:07:52:but i thought that the different client would make core adopt 2 MB
  294. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:08:02:Does Marshall Long and Olivier Janssens gave any technical input ?
  295. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:08:04:especially if we started to get a lot of support
  296. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:08:13:Did they discuss the different options with you ?
  297. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:08:34:no, they mostly gave organizational input
  298. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:08:48:they brought a friend of theirs who helped with the code
  299. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:08:55:Who ?
  300. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:08:57:i was faster than him at coding, though
  301. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:09:10:Ahmed ?
  302. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:09:12:ahmed bodiwala
  303. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:09:24:From FinalHash ?
  304. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:09:25:he had exams, i think, so he was busy a lot
  305. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:09:27:yes
  306. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:09:30:technical lead ?
  307. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:09:32:yes
  308. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:09:45:ok
  309. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:09:51:What about Classic web site ?
  310. 1|Jeff Garzik:2016-01-20 07:09:57:Marshall was the main one pinging me, Gavin & other orgs to join </interject>
  311. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:10:01:oh!
  312. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:10:07:right, i forgot something about their original pitch
  313. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:10:18:their pitch was they wanted a client that did 2 things
  314. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:10:21:1. 2 MB hardfork
  315. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:10:27:(Hi Jeff)
  316. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:10:30:2. stays true to satoshi's original vision of p2p cash
  317. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:10:47:Thanks for clarifiying
  318. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:11:12:At what point Jeff and Gavin joined ?
  319. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:11:20:You said only Ahmed in the beginning
  320. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:11:29:i have misgivings about the vision of the fee market as a way to pay for mining, and i think that fee market + lightning would be terrible for earning fees as a miner
  321. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:11:44:so satoshi's vision had some appeal for me
  322. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:12:01:first talked with gavin and jeff a few days later
  323. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:12:11:Around what date ?
  324. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:12:16:i think gavin 2 days later, when i asked his guidance on a tricky merge section in txdb.cpp
  325. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:12:40:i was merging BIP101 into 0.12/master at the time
  326. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:12:56:so that i could change the parameters to be 2-4-8 instead of 8MB+++...
  327. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:13:16:and gavin was very helpful, didn't ask too many questions
  328. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:13:25:ok
  329. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:13:34:It was around Jan 6 or so ?
  330. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:13:39:i talked with jeff i think 1 or 2 days later, around the 7th, because he was planning a trip to china
  331. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:13:46:maybe the 6th, yes
  332. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:13:56:(Jeff, I'll ask about this trip later)
  333. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:13:56:maybe earlier than that, i can't remember
  334. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:14:13:yeah, i think it was probably earlier
  335. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:14:13:Ok
  336. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:14:25:By that time, Classic web site was up and running ?
  337. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:14:34:nope
  338. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:14:43:there was a draft that olivier was working on
  339. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:14:57:Can you remind me ?
  340. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:15:00:Did he publish it ?
  341. 1|Jeff Garzik:2016-01-20 07:15:04:My Skype says Jan 4 "gonna call you about a project with toomim"
  342. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:15:16:marshall that?
  343. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:15:20:(thanks)
  344. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:16:02:(Chandler, I'm sorry for taking temporary posseion of this Channel. Will need about 30-60 minutes more. Thanks)
  345. 1|二宝:2016-01-20 07:16:10:
  346. 1|二宝:2016-01-20 07:16:31:@Guy Corem go on
  347. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:16:47:ok, so we talked with jeff and gavin around that time, i guess
  348. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:16:57:(will read the announcement translation later. Looks very intereting)
  349. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:16:58:and i worked hard on the code, and i got a lot done
  350. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:17:19:but the merge was a little messy in a few places, because Core did a lot of refactors in 2015
  351. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:17:39:At that point, did you still think it will eventually end us a Core PR or you knew for sure it will be different client ?
  352. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:17:41:and also, Morcos's work on CreateNewBlock made the sigops and bytes hashed protections that gavin wrote need rewriting
  353. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:17:56:i thought it would be both
  354. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:17:59:i still think it will be both
  355. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:18:09:i told them that i intended to write a PR for core eventually
  356. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:18:22:Ok
  357. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:18:32:they didn't like that, but they accepted it
  358. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:18:43:Who didn't like it ?
  359. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:04:well, we talked about it in slack a while later
  360. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:08:as well as on skype
  361. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:15:nobody i told about it liked it
  362. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:26:even the random internet people that came into slack after we launched the website
  363. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:19:34:Do you remmber when was the web site and slack (Classic) up and running ?
  364. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:49:i can probably find out
  365. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:19:57:website launched on a monday night
  366. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:20:08:11 ?
  367. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:20:10:11th
  368. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:20:16:ok
  369. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:20:20:Who worked on it ?
  370. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:20:42:olivier, my brother, and i think some web dev guys olivier hired
  371. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:20:55:None of Marshall's guys ?
  372. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:04:i eventually got tired of working on the 0.12 merge, and switched to working on 0.11.2 from bitpay's branch
  373. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:12:and got a version of 2-4-8 written in about 2 hours
  374. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:17:https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/1
  375. 1|Jeff Garzik:2016-01-20 07:21:24:I saw site sketch on Jan 5 plus request to contract
  376. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:32:but there was a problem with how the repository's branches were named, so that pull didn't merge properly
  377. 1|二宝:2016-01-20 07:21:33:@ProBTC Peter welcome
  378. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:46:that was 13 days ago
  379. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:21:49:gavin gave some code review
  380. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:22:01:then a few days later i closed it and opened https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/3
  381. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:22:08:9 days ago
  382. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:22:30:Ok
  383. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:22:38:And who opened Classic Slack ?
  384. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:22:39:so pull 1 i think was thursday the 7th? or the 8th?
  385. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:22:51:probably olivier
  386. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:22:58:Ok
  387. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:23:29:olivier did most of the manager tasks for creating a team and organizing them, marshall did most of the talking to miners and businesses
  388. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:23:31:When did Genesis Mining and BitmainTech joined ?
  389. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:23:43:i don't know, ask marshall
  390. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:24:05:i know that btcc knew about it pretty early on, because samson talked with me on skype
  391. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:24:19:And said what ?
  392. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:24:53:oh, i think he just wanted to say that he knew about it
  393. 1|二宝:2016-01-20 07:24:59:who have gavin'wechat ID i will let him join in this Conversation
  394. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:25:00:we mostly talked about segwit at the time
  395. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:25:14:i don't know if gavin does wechat
  396. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:26:02:olivier was really excited about having a constitution early on
  397. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:26:11:a document that would specify the unchangeables
  398. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:26:33:i was more interested in voting
  399. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:26:44:i thought that nobody would ever vote to change those things, and that that should be enough
  400. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:26:57:and that we've always been able to vote on those things
  401. 1|二宝:2016-01-20 07:27:02:who have Mike wechat？
  402. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:27:12:mike toomim? he doesn't do wechat
  403. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:27:27:gavin is in do-not-disturb mode
  404. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:27:30:he's probably coding
  405. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:27:41:or asleep
  406. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:27:58:so then the website went live
  407. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:28:14:When I saw Classic site first on Thursday 14th
  408. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:28:16:and a bunch of big miners and companies signed in support immediately
  409. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:28:31:I remmber Genesis Mining, BitmainTech and Coinbase
  410. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:28:37:and that was the end of my ability to write code for a while :)
  411. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:28:46::)
  412. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:28:51:and haobtc, and i think huobi
  413. 1|yifu:2016-01-20 07:28:52:earliest snapshot I have for classic site is the 12th
  414. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:29:01:you can read the acks in order
  415. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:29:04:one sec
  416. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:29:13:https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/website/issues/3
  417. 1|申屠青春:2016-01-20 07:29:30:Chinese central bank want to issue digital currency...
  418. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:29:43:(indeed. big news)
  419. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:29:49:(thanks for the update)
  420. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:30:02:oh darn, i already sold my bitcoin to pay for electricity a few days ago...
  421. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:30:06:wish i had waited
  422. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:30:12::)
  423. 1|申屠青春:2016-01-20 07:30:20:[Grin]
  424. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:30:30:Olivier convinced the businesses and Marshall the miners ?
  425. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:30:42:i don't know
  426. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:30:46:i like to think i convinced a few too
  427. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:30:52::)
  428. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:30:54:i posted a lot on reddit at the time
  429. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:30:57:What about Roger Ver ?
  430. 1|Jeff Garzik:2016-01-20 07:30:58:When finished I can supply December background
  431. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:31:01:and bitcoin.consider.it was really taking off and gaining steam
  432. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:31:03:and it was gorgeous
  433. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:31:10:I don't see him
  434. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:31:15:(Jeff, thanks)
  435. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:31:34:i think roger ver may have seen my posts in /r/btc
  436. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:31:42:in reddit.com/r/btc
  437. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:31:55:he's the admin of that group
  438. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:31:56:Ok
  439. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:32:01:but maybe not, i don't know
  440. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:32:10:i had talked with roger briefly at the HK conference
  441. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:32:10:Does he have any active role ?
  442. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:32:14:he seemed supportive
  443. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:32:29:no, roger does not have any active role, he just tweeted and posted in support
  444. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:32:30:Ok
  445. 1|yifu:2016-01-20 07:32:35:roger was added to the classic site on 20160115174307
  446. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:32:46:Understood. Thanks
  447. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:33:03:What about Genesis Mining and BitmainTech ?
  448. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:33:16:From the beginning ?
  449. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:33:21:from the beginning
  450. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:33:32:Ok
  451. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:33:43:i got along really well with bitmaintech, especially with pan zhibiao
  452. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:33:54:He is the pool guy ?
  453. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:34:03:let's see if i can write that in chinese... 潘指标？
  454. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:34:12:he's not supposed to be the pool guy
  455. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:34:21:he's supposed to be the PM of their block explorer
  456. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:34:37:but i recommended that he start taking care of their pool stuff, because the pool needed a lot of help
  457. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:34:39:ok
  458. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:34:43:needs
  459. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:35:06:oh right, i also visited BTCC and bitmain because i wanted to help them design a better pool infrastructure
  460. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:35:27:and i wanted to help them set up a new protocol for doing stratum proxies across the great firewall
  461. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:35:55:Ok. Any other facts before we'll move to free discussion ?
  462. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:36:15:(Jeff, I would love to hear Dec background, but please later)
  463. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:36:21:so eventually bitfury signed on, and then i saw sysman appear in slack
  464. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:36:26:and then it hit the news
  465. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:36:36:and then everything started to go totally crazy
  466. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:36:48:guy, you remember how the Core slack conversations went
  467. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:36:49:BitFury joine don Friday 15th if I recall correctly
  468. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:36:54:Yes
  469. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:36:57:I fully remmber
  470. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:37:00:I asked you to join
  471. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:01:i spent 5 hours in slack with no food...
  472. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:09:when i was supposed to be coding
  473. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:37:12:(to Core Slack)
  474. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:15:gavin warned me about this
  475. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:37:24:About what ?
  476. 1|Chris朱砝@蚂蚁矿池:2016-01-20 07:37:24:@Jonathan Toomim [ThumbsUp][ThumbsUp][ThumbsUp]
  477. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:28:being the lead developer means that you don't get to actually write code most of the time
  478. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:37:35::)
  479. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:46:but whatever, better that i can't write code than gavin
  480. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:37:49:So right now Gavin is doing most of the coding ?
  481. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:37:55:he maybe knows a little more about bitcoin code than i do.
  482. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:38:05:he's doing more than i am, but i'm getting stuff done too
  483. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:38:13:we're actually cooperating pretty well
  484. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:38:26:good opportunity for you.
  485. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:38:33:i've been doing some research on the specs, and talking to miners and other developers to figure out what needs to be done on a high level
  486. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:38:48:and then tell gavin that he wasted half a day, and that what he wrote won't work for f2pool :)
  487. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:39:03:Oh
  488. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:39:11:only half a day though
  489. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:39:12:Care to elaborate on this point ?
  490. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:39:16:actually, i think only 2 hours
  491. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:39:19:(don't get too technical)
  492. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:39:39:gavin wanted to limit the tx size to 100 kB as a consensus rule instead of just a IsStandard rule
  493. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:39:51:this would protect against a lot of the difficult-to-validate transaction vulnerabilities
  494. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:03:however, f2pool uses single transactions with a lot of outputs to pay its miners
  495. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:17:these are fast to validate, but big, sometimes 500 kB (once a year)
  496. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:40:20:Similiar to Eligius ?
  497. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:25:and over 100 kB once a day
  498. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:36:eligius and p2pool do it straight out of the coinbase tx
  499. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:41:which is different, but similar
  500. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:40:43:ok
  501. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:46:one input, many outputs for f2pool
  502. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:40:53:0 inputs, many outputs for eligius and p2pool
  503. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:40:54:got it
  504. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:41:07:f2pool is just the biggest, so they have the biggest transactions
  505. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:41:32:anyway, gavin thought that nobody was actually using > 100 kB transactions, so he thought it would probably be okay to do the limit
  506. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:41:32:Let's move to discuss the future of Classic and the future of Core
  507. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:41:45:and many security researchers had been recommending doing exactly that for about 3 years now
  508. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:41:52:Ok
  509. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:03:anyway, gavin's working on a different way to solve the same problem now
  510. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:08:not complicated, almost done
  511. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:13:so the future of classic and core?
  512. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:42:22:one more question
  513. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:25:i want bitcoin to have multiple compatible clients
  514. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:42:26:before
  515. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:32:i want both core and classic to continue
  516. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:35:ok, go ahead
  517. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:42:36:(never mind drop it)
  518. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:42:38:Please continue
  519. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:45:i think that users need to have choice
  520. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:42:47:and miners
  521. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:01:bitcoin is supposed to be decentralized p2p cash
  522. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:43:03:But all clients should use the same chain ?
  523. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:14:and if there's only one dev team that has a say, it's not very decentralized
  524. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:18:yes, the same chain
  525. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:29:the same UTXO set, the same currency
  526. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:50:and we would copy code from each other a lot of the time
  527. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:43:53:git cherry-pick
  528. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:44:19:and every now and then, there might be a disagreement about how to fork the chain and how to upgrade
  529. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:44:34:and that would be resolved through either an economic vote, or a hashrate vote, or both
  530. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:44:35:And then ?
  531. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:44:47:economic vote ?
  532. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:44:53:via futures markets
  533. 1|Johnson Lau:2016-01-20 07:45:21:@Jonathan Toomin you should count the byte hashed, rather limit the tx size. We will fix the problem in BIP143
  534. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:45:37:jl2012 yes that's what we're doing, exactly
  535. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:45:50:that's what i always wanted to do, actually
  536. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:45:57:gavin was just being a rogue
  537. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:46:14:100 kB txes would work better for blocktorrent, though
  538. 1|Johnson Lau:2016-01-20 07:46:25:limiting the size now, we will have another HF to increase the size later
  539. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:46:36:anyway, we're doing a resource tracker for bytes hashed similar to what was in BIP101, but with different (lower) limits
  540. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:47:02:or just use segwit for > 100 kB transactions
  541. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:47:33:Jonathan, anything else regarding your vision of Core & Classic ?
  542. 1|Johnson Lau:2016-01-20 07:47:35:theoretically possible but the rules will be very tricky
  543. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:47:56:hmm, yes, i suppose it would be tricky at 100 kB
  544. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:48:11:we were initially talking about 250 kb or 500 kb, which would be easier
  545. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:48:36:we're now looking at 1 MB or unlimited, not sure, but with a bytes hashed limit around maybe 100 MB per tx, maybe lower
  546. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:48:44:haven't bikeshedded that parameter yet
  547. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:49:03:i'm also okay with Core developers joining the Classic project and working under democracy
  548. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:49:14:or Core adjusting their decision making process to be more open to user and miner input
  549. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:49:26:If this will happen
  550. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:49:29:Say,.
  551. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:49:50:If Core will adapt 2MB HF, will Classic effort stop ?
  552. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:50:03:but i like the idea of teaching users and miners that they can make decisions for themselves, and they don't have to blindly follow core
  553. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:50:04:(I don't see it happen. It's just what if)
  554. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:50:30:Can you explain Classic governance model ?
  555. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:50:34:it depends on if i trusted them to work hard on scaling the blocksize and capacity further, or if i thought they would drag their heels again
  556. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:50:37:What issues are put to the vote ?
  557. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:51:01:i can't explain the classic governance model, because it might be changing if people don't like it
  558. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:51:12:the basic idea is that we need input from users and miners
  559. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:51:12:What is it now ?
  560. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:51:24:and that at the top would be one or more people with commit access
  561. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:51:35:and the committers would have the power, but they would be under continual review
  562. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:51:52:so if they merge PRs that were unpopular, and didn't unmerge them afterwards
  563. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:51:54:And if there will be a conflict ?
  564. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:01:or if they refused to merge popular PRs
  565. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:02:Popular but what measure ?
  566. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:05:Reddit ?
  567. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:08:consider.it ?
  568. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:10:then people would notice, and should then fork the software
  569. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:17:mostly consider.it, yet
  570. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:20:^yes
  571. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:39:consider.it was designed for exactly this task, and took travis years to get to the point it's at now
  572. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:41:(full disclosure in order, it's your brother and his friend site)
  573. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:50:yes, exactly
  574. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:54:ok
  575. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:55:So,
  576. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:52:58:my brother has wanted to use it for bitcoin for ages
  577. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:52:58:Work continue
  578. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:53:07:If something get unpopular
  579. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:53:13:And you start to see unrest
  580. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:53:18:You put it to the vote ?
  581. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:53:27:Or user can initiate voting on something new ?
  582. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:53:27:no, you vote on pretty much everything
  583. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:53:33:mostly, it's just devs who would be voting
  584. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:53:45:because they would be the only ones who cared about most issues
  585. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:53:53:maybe "voting" isn't the right term
  586. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:53:59:Except some unchangable like 21M, inflation schedule ?
  587. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:02:it's really making their opinions known in visual form
  588. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:15:everything can be voted on
  589. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:54:23:Including 21M ?
  590. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:27:yes
  591. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:54:34:Interesting
  592. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:35:nobody wants to change 21M coins
  593. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:39:nobody ever will
  594. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:54:47:doing so would ruin the currency, and everyone knows that
  595. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:54:56:another question:
  596. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:55:04:What if there is disagreement between miners and users?
  597. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:55:09:Miners and devs?
  598. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:55:14:both have to agree to a change for it to be merged
  599. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:55:31:devs just write the code. commiters/maintainers decide whether to merge it
  600. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:56:01:And if they don't ?
  601. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:56:05:committers (like me) review the code, review the support of the people who vote, add their own judgment, and then choose to merge or not
  602. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:56:09:One need to gather support ?
  603. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:04:we're not completely sure about what to do when the committers disagree
  604. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:12:one way we can do it is to let things be more like Core
  605. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:20:and give the commiters power to do whatever they want
  606. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:57:20:Oh
  607. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:32:another way is to give the users the power to remove or replace the committers
  608. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:57:32:So change back to Core model in disagreement ?
  609. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:47:there are a lot of other options
  610. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:57:52:we're still figuring out what works best
  611. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:57:57:Ok
  612. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:58:02:but one thing is clear
  613. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:03:Question
  614. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:19:When you talked with the miner in Decembers,
  615. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:58:22:if the committers do not follow the wishes of the miners and the users, it will be very obvious
  616. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:22:(The Chinese Miners)
  617. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:31:Classic wasn't a realiy back then
  618. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:36:It happened only later
  619. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:58:38:and the users and miners could easily choose to fork the project at that point to get what they wanted done.
  620. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:58:51:When Marshall Long later explained Classic and 2MB increase to the miners,
  621. 1|锐火:2016-01-20 07:58:53:http://www.pbc.gov.cn/goutongjiaoliu/113456/113469/3008070/index.html
  622. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:59:07:Classic wasn't a thing in December, no. Just the idea of a hard fork, maybe with Core and maybe without Core.
  623. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:59:15:Did he cover the drastic change in governance model ?
  624. 1|锐火:2016-01-20 07:59:20:央行要发数字货币了
  625. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:59:32:i don't know
  626. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:59:36:i was trying to code at the time
  627. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:59:48:i know that i posted it on reddit
  628. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:59:48:In your estimation ?
  629. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 07:59:55:i have no idea
  630. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 07:59:56:I understand
  631. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:00:04:hmm, let me check my email
  632. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:00:05:one sec
  633. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:00:10:waiting
  634. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:00:17:(open letter)
  635. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:02:06:it looks like the governance structure was not emphasized early on
  636. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:02:14:ok
  637. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:02:18:Only 2M HD
  638. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:02:21:2MB Hard Fork
  639. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:02:21:and when i started talking about it, people said that it was a distraction and it would detract from getting things done
  640. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:02:21:?
  641. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:02:28:and it looks like they were right
  642. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:02:29:oops
  643. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:02:43:but you still doing it in Classic ?
  644. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:03:02:we are right now
  645. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:03:06:it seems to be working so far
  646. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:03:14:Ok
  647. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:03:18:but we can change it
  648. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:03:20:So, in an essence,
  649. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:03:37:Classic is right now more a change of governance then anything else ?
  650. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:03:51:no, classic is a change in the blocksize
  651. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:03:53:Moving from Core decision making to what you described above ?
  652. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:04:05:no, classic is a hard fork to increase the blocksize
  653. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:04:05:Granted
  654. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:04:23:But it also change of givernance model ?
  655. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:04:32:it can be if people want it to be
  656. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:04:32:governance
  657. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:04:43:but i just want bitcoin to grow
  658. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:04:58:if people vote against democracy, i'll laugh and go along
  659. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:05:10:You're demonstrating what you think is a different governance model right now
  660. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:05:20:You're implementing it in Classic now. Correct ?
  661. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:05:30:we've been trying it out, yes
  662. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:05:43:Ok, so
  663. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:05:49:but everybody on the project agrees that the blocksize hard fork is more important than the governance model
  664. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:06:00:so if you guys want a single guy in charge, we can do that
  665. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:06:13:or if you want us to form a corporation with shareholders, we can do that
  666. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:06:17:who is "you" ?
  667. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:06:24:you = users and miners
  668. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:06:29:ok
  669. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:06:33:Question
  670. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:06:35:i just want to make a project that people will want to use
  671. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:06:45:and that will work well for the things they want to use it for
  672. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:06:46:You have the consider.it platform
  673. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:06:58:Have you put the change of governance model to a vote ?
  674. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:07:08:yes
  675. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:07:16:several votes
  676. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:07:19:on several different issues
  677. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:07:37:Simple question:
  678. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:07:43:for example, someone put up this proposal to vote: "Make Gavin the benevolent dictator"
  679. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:07:51:yes, I saw that
  680. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:07:56:that was voted down, because gavin doesn't want the job
  681. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:08:09:(Our own (Israel) Ron Gross is adovcating fot that as well)
  682. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:08:21:But, what about simple question:
  683. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:08:24:there is also "Choose someone as a Benevolent Dictator", which is also opposed right now
  684. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:08:48:"Bitcoin Core governance model is X. We want to change it to Y. Do you agree ?"
  685. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:09:10:Or, more radical:
  686. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:09:28:oh, that would be a bitcoin.consider.it question, not a bitcoinclassic.consider.it question
  687. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:09:46:we haven't had a vote on bitcoin core's governance model, no
  688. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:09:51:"BitcoinClassic will merged back into Core after 2MB HF activation. Do you agree?"
  689. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:10:04:actually, there was a similar vote
  690. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:10:11:Can you show me ?
  691. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:10:13:but it wasn't very serious, i think
  692. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:10:17:let me find it, one sec
  693. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:11:30:nope, it's not there
  694. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:11:47:Ok
  695. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:12:03:maybe the author removed it
  696. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:12:07:sec
  697. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:12:18:I want to move to a completely theoretical questions.
  698. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:12:29:we could have that vote, though
  699. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:12:37:you're welcome to add the question to consider.it and see how people respond
  700. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:12:43:If I'll state an opinion, it's my own only.
  701. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:12:49:(Maybe I'll do)
  702. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:12:50:ok
  703. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:12:54:you should
  704. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:12:55:So, what if:
  705. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:13:11:As it seems, Bitcoin Classic Hf will happen
  706. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:13:13:Do you agree ?
  707. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:13:25:(I can explain why, but it's obvious to me)
  708. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:13:58:probably, yes
  709. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:14:12:ok, i'm going to listen to that
  710. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:14:18:me too
  711. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:15:06:Chandler, thank you for being a kind host. I'm ok with publishing it, if Jonathan is ok with that.
  712. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:15:49:i am not sure people will want to read it. it's pretty long.
  713. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:16:06:But do you agree ?
  714. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:16:09:but in general, i don't believe in censorship or controlling information flow
  715. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:16:21:Thank you Jonathan.
  716. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:16:31:so go ahead
  717. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:16:35:If you want to remove some parts, let Chandler know.
  718. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:16:40:Let's continue.
  719. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:16:59:So, we both agree that right now, it seems that Classic activation threshold will be met (75%)
  720. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:17:17:What do you think will become of Core chain ?
  721. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:17:59:i hope they will accept my PR or write code based on my BIP and choose to be compatible, because i like most of the devs on core and i don't want to see them be marginalized
  722. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:18:37:Let me transalate in my own words:
  723. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:18:39:but there's a 4 week grace period after the 75% threshold is hit
  724. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:18:52:it won't be an immediate thing
  725. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:18:58:core will have 4 weeks to respond
  726. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:19:14:You hope that they'll change Core code base and do similiar 2MB hard fork ?
  727. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:17:i think that they will take that time to join the consensus.
  728. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:20:but i could be wrong.
  729. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:31:luke-jr won't join the consensus, though
  730. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:36:well, probably not
  731. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:45:peter todd probably won't either
  732. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:19:54:most of the rest i think will
  733. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:19:54:maxwell ?
  734. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:20:00:maxwell, i can't say
  735. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:20:10:i hope so
  736. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:20:17:And what about non hard fork features ?
  737. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:20:27:They may select to change to them or not ?
  738. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:20:31:rbf ?
  739. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:20:55:opt-in RBF seems almost universally hated
  740. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:21:05:so that would probably be removed pretty quickly
  741. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:21:35:Let's investigate each possible sceanrio
  742. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:21:41:First scenario:
  743. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:21:51:i'd like to do a big cleanup of the code base in maybe 12 to 18 months and fix a lot of the outstanding problems in bitcoin
  744. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:22:10:i'd also like to put a lot of work into performance
  745. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:22:31:Which in theory all can be done in Core ?
  746. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:22:41:except the 2MB HF, that it
  747. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:22:47:and try to get a version of segwit merged and activated, either hard or soft, but without the 4x adversarial condition and the subsidy for multisig
  748. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:23:03:the major cleanup would be another hardfork
  749. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:23:17:there is a long list of things that people want to fix but can't because doing so would be a hard fork
  750. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:23:32:and because they think that hard forks are somehow not feasible
  751. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:23:57:segwit is largely an attempt to fix as many of those things as possible by using a commitment structure to rewrite the rules of bitcoin
  752. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:24:14:segwit is like a "hidden" hardfork that can be deployed as technically being a softfork
  753. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:24:24:i like it better as a simple hard fork, though
  754. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:24:43:So, under your leaderhsip,
  755. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:24:44:the thing is, Core is deathly afraid of big blocks
  756. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:24:58:You'll hard fork whenever you think it's needed ?
  757. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:25:04:because they think it will compromise the vision they have of being able to run a full node on everbody's laptop
  758. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:25:29:hard fork infrequently, but as needed to make major improvements, and only if supported by miners and users.
  759. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:25:52:I understand
  760. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:25:56:and usually with a lot more advance notice
  761. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:26:13:but usually with bigger changes than just a blocksize increase
  762. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:26:34:So, fix whatever needed to bix, whenever, with notice and HF ?
  763. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:26:47:and support of the community
  764. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:27:20:we need to ask people what they think of the plan, ask about each major detail, and make changes as needed until we have something that makes the most people the happiest
  765. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:27:40:And you'll vote on the above plan ?
  766. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:27:43:we need tools to process that information
  767. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:27:47:to visualize those preferences
  768. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:27:52:and to make those debates productive
  769. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:27:55:Who wouldn't choose such path ?
  770. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:28:05:(it was a bit of sarcasm. Sorry)
  771. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:28:08:Back to what if:
  772. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:28:10:luke and peter
  773. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:28:16::)
  774. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:28:44:Let's say, Luke, Peter and some others decide to keep running Core as a seperate fork
  775. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:28:56:Can we discuss that scenario ?
  776. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:29:07:see, that's what i like about hard forks. nobody is forced to do what they don't want to
  777. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:29:24:sure, luke and peter use their branch, and everyone else uses the other branch
  778. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:29:25:sure.
  779. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:29:44:Can we change from names to something else ?
  780. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:29:52:and luke and peter are happy because they can run the full node on luke's slow ADSL line, and peter's happy because it's very censorship resistant
  781. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:29:53:Can we call it Core branch ?
  782. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:30:09:sure
  783. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:30:20:the people who want a usable currency will join the majority branch
  784. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:30:34:Ok, so some developers keep maintaing the Core branch
  785. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:30:48:and it becomes effectively an altcoin
  786. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:30:50:that's fine
  787. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:30:53:altcoins can be fun
  788. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:30:55:Which isn't compatible with Classic
  789. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:31:16:sure, but it shares a common history with the majority fork
  790. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:31:30:Can we assigned name ?
  791. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:31:38:Core fork and Classic fork ?
  792. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:31:45:so many people will have some coins on both forks
  793. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:31:53:indeed
  794. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:00:well, the classic fork would also include XT and Unlimited, but fine
  795. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:05:classic it is
  796. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:32:14:But Core fork probably can't mine.
  797. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:32:17:Correct ?
  798. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:24:not very well
  799. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:30:so they do what doge did
  800. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:37:and they make their chain merge mined
  801. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:44:or like namecoin
  802. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:32:59:AuxPoW
  803. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:33:02:yes, merge mining is one possability
  804. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:33:24:What is the other possability ?
  805. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:33:52:well, they could switch PoW functions
  806. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:34:00:which would be a hard fork
  807. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:34:06:just like the AuxPoW thing
  808. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:34:07:Indeed
  809. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:34:14:and then there would be three forks, not two
  810. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:34:22:three branches
  811. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:34:24:please explain
  812. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:34:35:well, each time you hard fork, you leave something behind
  813. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:34:42:true
  814. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:35:07:But if they'll choose PoW change,
  815. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:35:32:Can we assume that the majority of nodes still running Core will switch to it ?
  816. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:35:35:if they choose a PoW change, it's basically game over for them
  817. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:35:46:Why do you tjink so ?
  818. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:35:48:they would probably lose compatibility with all SPV wallets
  819. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:36:02:Why ?
  820. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:36:07:because they would have to reset difficulty
  821. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:36:15:and SPV wallets verify difficulty
  822. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:36:16:Why ?
  823. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:36:36:because they wouldn't know how much hashrate with the new PoW function they would have
  824. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:37:11:What about using two PoWs in the interim ?
  825. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:37:14:and whatever funciton they switched to would produce a different number of 0000s at the beginning of the hashes
  826. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:37:18:Or merge mining and new PoW ?
  827. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:37:34:merge mining breaks PoW validation with SPV too
  828. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:37:40:so does two PoWs
  829. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:37:58:if you want to not break SPV, you have to be able to make headers that meet the same requirements as before
  830. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:38:27:and one of those requirements is that the SHA256 hash of the header must have a value less than whatever is set by the PoW function
  831. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:38:56:so you have to tell mycelium, multibit, electrum, etc to merge in the new PoW function so they can verify the new headers
  832. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:39:09:and they might all do that
  833. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:39:10:indeed
  834. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:39:18:or... they might just use classic, with which they're already compatible
  835. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:39:24:because SPV wallets do not verify block size.
  836. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:39:47:and classic only changes the block size and one other thing that SPV wallets don't verify
  837. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:39:52:(the bytes hashed per block)
  838. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:40:01:so...
  839. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:40:06:For now you mean
  840. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:40:08:core would be better off just sticking with SHA256
  841. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:40:16:well, yes, for the next year
  842. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:40:24:I don't think it's a valid option for Core
  843. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:40:26:later on we can plan something else
  844. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:40:39:So,
  845. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:40:40:it is if they join the fork
  846. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:40:46:If I summarize you:
  847. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:40:58:The developers left behind in Core,
  848. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:41:05:If they want to do PoW change,
  849. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:41:39:They need to accept SPV wallet break or convince SPV wallet providers to upgrade
  850. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:41:40:Correct ?
  851. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:41:59:yes, i'm pretty sure that's correct
  852. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:20:Ok
  853. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:29:Let's discuss user base support.
  854. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:42:33:jl2012, if i'm wrong on that please let us know
  855. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:37:Not miners.
  856. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:42:48:yes, that is what matters the most
  857. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:49:Indeed, you did some polls
  858. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:53:And other did as well.
  859. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:42:57:And there is reddit
  860. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:43:03:with or without censorship
  861. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:43:11:you can't censor the vote counts on reddit
  862. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:43:19:And there is classic consider.it
  863. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:43:37:the blockstream developers kept complaining of "vote brigading", which just meant that they kept saying stuff that most people disagreed with strongly
  864. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:43:48:bitcoin.consider.it is actually the user census
  865. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:44:18:bitcoin.consider.it is for all bitcoin users, but just for blocksize and segwit stuff (scaling stuff)
  866. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:44:27:How do you know what users will ultimately choose ?
  867. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:44:32:bitcoinclassic.consider.it is just for bitcoin classic decision making
  868. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:44:52:I mean, vocal users who strongly disagree with current policy, will actively seek out to vote
  869. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:45:02:yes, on both sides
  870. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:45:37:https://bitcoin.consider.it/status-quo-keep-capacity-at-1-mb
  871. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:46:03:I don't agree on "on both sides"
  872. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:46:22:luke-jr was one of our first users on the site, actually
  873. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:46:34:Users content with current status might not want to bother themselves to find out how to vote
  874. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:46:40:Users,
  875. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:46:45:Not developers
  876. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:46:50:he's both
  877. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:47:09:sure, but I think you understood my meaning.
  878. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:47:36:it's possible that there is anti-status-quo bias, yes
  879. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:47:56:Ok
  880. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:48:08:Let's get back to what if.
  881. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:48:11:on our site, only 6% of users thought that keeping the 1 MB blocksize limit was a good idea
  882. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:48:15:6%!
  883. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:48:42:SegWit status was fully explained ?
  884. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:48:50:In the poll question ?
  885. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:48:54:segwit was presented in several different forms
  886. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:48:58:as a hard fork, as a soft fork
  887. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:49:05:before a blocksize hardfork, after a hard fork
  888. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:49:19:Can you show me the question ?
  889. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:49:21:and also there was the "Bitcoin Core: Roadmap" option
  890. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:49:36:there were about 5 different questions for different options
  891. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:49:41:here, let me take screenshots for you
  892. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:50:14:go ahead
  893. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:50:31:these will be in order of most support to least support
  894. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:50:37:circles on the right means support
  895. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:50:43:circles on the left means opposition
  896. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:52:03:Can you agree on the fact that people seek out to vote at Classic consider.it have higher chance of being biased ?
  897. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:52:20:yes, it's possible
  898. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:52:41:i can't rule out the probability of bias
  899. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:52:46:^possiblity
  900. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:52:47:I want to go back to Core Fork and PoW
  901. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:53:10:Let's assume Core developers are doing PoW via Hard Fork
  902. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:53:26:Because else, they can't mine
  903. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:54:35:Jonathan ?
  904. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:54:40:yes?
  905. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:54:56:i was waiting for a question
  906. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:55:00:(If it's too late for you, let me know, we can continue on some other time)
  907. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:55:02:is there a question?
  908. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:55:07:sec
  909. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:55:16:it's getting too early... 5:55am
  910. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:55:24::)
  911. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:55:28:but we can go on
  912. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:55:35:Thanks
  913. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:55:42:i sleep at funny times
  914. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:56:13:You don't have a real way to measure how many users will actually be behind Core and how many will support Classic Hard Fork. Correct ?
  915. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:56:19:I mean, not in advance
  916. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:56:30:not right now, no
  917. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:56:42:people are working on setting up futures contracts to estimate that
  918. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:56:51:You see hashing power, you see businesses and you see reddit posts
  919. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:57:02:(interesting)
  920. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:57:05:and you see independent surveys, like genesis mining
  921. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:57:19:from their customers after their vocal support for it
  922. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:57:26:Again, we can assume it's biased
  923. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:57:27:no, this was a year ago
  924. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:57:43:(full disclosure, we're friends. Good friends)
  925. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:57:44:you can also look at full node counts
  926. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:57:56:Indeed.
  927. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:58:08:So,
  928. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:58:20:i hope that the miners wait until full node counts climb a lot for classic
  929. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:58:22:Fast forward after the Classic Fork activation
  930. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:58:30:trigger, or activation?
  931. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:58:32:Please explain
  932. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:58:34:remember, there's a grace period
  933. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:58:37:They're supporting it now
  934. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:58:56:miners have promised to run Classic, but they're not running it yet
  935. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 08:58:56:before submitting 2MB blocks ?
  936. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:59:15:then we release it in a testnet-only version, and we test it there to make sure it all works properly
  937. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 08:59:46:then we release the full version, and people start running full nodes on it, and miners can use it
  938. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:00:08:eventually, miners reach 75% of the last 2016 blocks (I think i'm going to change it from 1000, btw)
  939. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:00:14:and that is the trigger date
  940. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:00:28:Ok
  941. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:00:30:the activation date will be 4 weeks later (unless I change that parameter too)
  942. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:00:43:Please expand on your advice to the miners
  943. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:00:44:and no > 1 MB blocks will be allowed until after those 4 weeks
  944. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:01:29:after those 4 weeks are done, 2 MB blocks will be allowed
  945. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:01:42:but the chain won't fork until someone mines a > 1.0 MB block
  946. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:03:02:so the node counts are complicated
  947. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:03:11:you can't actually rely on them, because it's really easy to fake a full node.
  948. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:03:26:indeed
  949. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:03:27:but if people are upgrading, you should see a lot of full nodes reporting that they're using classic
  950. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:03:39:or someone can fake it as well ?
  951. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:03:50:you will probably also see a spike in total full nodes, as the last few adamant Core supporters fake a bunch of nodes with a Sybil attack
  952. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:03:50:Someone with an interest to gather support for Classic ?
  953. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:04:00:Classic could fake it too, it's true
  954. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:04:07:so the full node counts don't really matter either way
  955. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:04:12::(
  956. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:04:12:ok
  957. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:04:17:So,
  958. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:04:42:Miners won't have real knowledge of what the real user base thinks or choose.
  959. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:04:44:Correct ?
  960. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:24:not perfect knowledge, no
  961. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:29:just hints
  962. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:05:35:ok
  963. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:39:but miners can do their own surveys
  964. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:42:like genesis mining did
  965. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:50:btcc is an exchange, they have a lot of customers
  966. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:05:55:they could ask their customer list what they wanted
  967. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:06:12:Indeed
  968. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:06:14:pools will see their miners leave them if the owners don't support the fork
  969. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:06:32:I'm less interested here in Miners vote
  970. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:06:38:wallet developers will get emails from their users asking about whether their software supports the fork or if they need to upgrade
  971. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:06:38:I'll explain why
  972. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:06:53:well, i mean end-user miners, like most of my customers
  973. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:06:58:not industrial miners
  974. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:07:02:ok
  975. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:07:11:so everyone ask everyone
  976. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:07:24:If they feel Classic has major support
  977. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:07:26:bitpay can ask its merchants, blockchain.info can ask its wallet users, etc
  978. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:07:35:yes
  979. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:07:58:Ok
  980. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:08:18:Do you agree that there is good chance the remaing core developers will initiate PoW change ?
  981. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:08:29:Via Hard Fork
  982. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:08:55:i personally think it might just be a threat to miners
  983. 1|ProBTC:2016-01-20 09:09:00:Christ, aren't you guys finished yet?
  984. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:09:04:the first thing luke-jr did was he posted that as a patch on our github
  985. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:09:08:Soon. sorry.
  986. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:09:19:i think it was an attempt to try to get miners to run away from classic
  987. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:09:29:Sure, there is a "game of chickens" asspect.
  988. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:09:31:But,
  989. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:09:45:We did agree that it seems that Classic will be activated.
  990. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:10:06:i think that most of the developers of Core want to be part of the majority
  991. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:10:21:And you did agree that some Core developers will remain maintaining the pre 2MB HF Core code base. Correct?
  992. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:10:28:i think a few diehards will probably fork off and create their own altcoin
  993. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:10:38:or forkcoin, or whatever
  994. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:10:47:but i don't think many developers will stay behind with that
  995. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:10:48:Nice strategy.
  996. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:00:So,
  997. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:15:With you permission, I want to call it Core + PoW change fork
  998. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:21:And not altcoin
  999. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:23:Ok ?
  1000. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:11:25:ok
  1001. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:11:35:i think branch is a better term than fork
  1002. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:40:ok
  1003. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:11:43:a fork is the separation, a branch is one side after the fork
  1004. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:11:49:branch it is
  1005. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:11:52:so with one fork you have two branches
  1006. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:12:07:So, each BTC will become two ?
  1007. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:12:14:ClassicBTC and CoreBTC ?
  1008. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:12:22:oh great, they're both CBTC
  1009. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:12:25:(I want to keep symmetric terms)
  1010. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:12:44:each person will have coins on both branches at first
  1011. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:12:48:I'm assuming no OldCoreBTC
  1012. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:12:59:and a transaction published on one branch will be valid on the other branch most of the time
  1013. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:13:15:there will be ways of separating them, to make them invalid on one branch
  1014. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:13:22:PoW change ...
  1015. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:13:24:mostly, by mixing in recent miner revenue
  1016. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:13:31:PoW change doesn't change the transaction format
  1017. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:13:37:indeed, sorry
  1018. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:13:41:it doesn't change the script sigs
  1019. 1|ProBTC:2016-01-20 09:13:55:Lol. I just love the all-embracing attitude in here. To let you guys rant non-stop like this.
  1020. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:14:19:Let's say,
  1021. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:14:35:I want to use my coins , each in it's own branch
  1022. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:14:49:So I install Classic Wallet and new Core Wallet
  1023. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:15:05:and you import the same private key into both
  1024. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:15:09:yes
  1025. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:15:33:So, I'll be able to send ClassicCoins to an exchange accpeting them
  1026. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:15:35:if you do nothing else, and you make a payment on core wallet, it will almost always go through on classic wallet
  1027. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:15:54:I don't want that
  1028. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:16:01:it will go through on core wallet too
  1029. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:16:09:I want to keep and have two seperate coins
  1030. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:16:14:then you have to try
  1031. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:16:25:you have to find a transaction that is only valid on one branch
  1032. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:16:35:and you have to build a transaction that depends on that single-branch transaction
  1033. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:16:43:+
  1034. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:16:46:(sorry)
  1035. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:17:35:if there was a time in which blocks were not being mined on the CoreBTC side, then some transactions might not have gotten included in the blockchain due to congestion
  1036. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:17:54:you could also split them up by trying to double-spend a transaction that you send to yourself
  1037. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:18:11:you can also incorporate recently mined coins
  1038. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:18:23:What can the remaining Core developers do in order to completely seperate the chains ?
  1039. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:18:31:once you've done something that makes the coins invalid on one branch, then you can send on one branch and not the other
  1040. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:18:41:To have clear seperation between Classic and Core
  1041. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:18:45:They can change the transaction format
  1042. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:18:58:I understand
  1043. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:18:59:they can increment the Transaction version number
  1044. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:19:12:So they'll need to do that as well in the POW HF
  1045. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:19:19:the patch that luke-jr submitted to me for the PoW change did not do that
  1046. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:19:26:so they'll have to add it
  1047. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:19:47:I understand
  1048. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:20:02:Without it, some transaction will work, some not
  1049. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:20:06:otherwise, people will want to use the more usable version, and that will be classic, because classic will have better mining and a better blocksize limit
  1050. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:20:09:And there is ways to do double spend
  1051. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:20:26:yes
  1052. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:20:28:(we'll get to better mining in a bit)
  1053. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:20:40:and it will be more work for businesses to support CoreBTC than to support ClassicBTC
  1054. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:00:Seems like a minor change to me.
  1055. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:02:I mean,
  1056. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:21:09:because they'll have to support the differnent hash function, and the different transaction version number
  1057. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:11:If you intend to support both versions of BTC
  1058. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:22:you will want full seperation
  1059. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:35:But I agree that it will be a bit more of an hassle.
  1060. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:45:So,
  1061. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:21:49:it's not a huge change
  1062. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:21:57:although the PoW patch that i saw is over 4000 lines of code
  1063. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:21:59:Indeed. Seems so.
  1064. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:22:09:Hashing function...
  1065. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:22:12:yes
  1066. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:22:16:Let's assume Core is implementin
  1067. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:22:18:most of it is just for the hashing function
  1068. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:22:33:Let's assume Core is implementing both changes
  1069. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:22:38:And we have different PoW
  1070. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:22:45:they :)
  1071. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:22:54:sure
  1072. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:02:(It's bad translation from Hebrew)
  1073. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:08:We as a community
  1074. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:12:So,
  1075. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:27:Core has different PoW and different transaction number
  1076. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:36:users can install Classic and Core new wallets
  1077. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:23:51:Every coin is splitted to ClassicBTC and CoreBTC
  1078. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:24:06:And I can start to transact separatly with each
  1079. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:24:07:Correct ?
  1080. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:24:14:yes
  1081. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:24:31:How likely do you find the above scenario ?
  1082. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:24:42:I mean, we agreed that Classic Activation will probably happen.
  1083. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:25:04:are we making any statements about both branches having significant real value?
  1084. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:25:10:or just the technical outcome?
  1085. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:25:21:for the moment, technical outcome
  1086. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:25:31:Economical outcome - later
  1087. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:26:03:i'm not sure about the name Core being used for the alt PoW client
  1088. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:26:13:but other than that, maybe 75%
  1089. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:26:22:leave names aside
  1090. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:26:31:We defined the names above
  1091. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:26:37:And it might change, I agree.
  1092. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:27:26:So, there is 75% chance, in your estimation that we'll have ClassicBTC wallet and CoreBTC wallet, each with it's own coins, splittd from the original BTC coins, and we can transact with each seperately ?
  1093. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:27:41:that's how the technology works, yes
  1094. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:27:51:in other hard forks, it hasn't been done that way
  1095. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:27:52:ok
  1096. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:28:04:but in this case, it seems there are people who want to make that heppen
  1097. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:28:07:^happen
  1098. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:28:09:ok
  1099. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:28:17:So it's not only a game of chicken
  1100. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:28:18:Correct ?
  1101. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:28:21:75% estimation.
  1102. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:28:24:Your estimation
  1103. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:28:43:well, anyone can create any coin they want to
  1104. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:28:49:the hard part is convincing people to use it
  1105. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:29:07:I'm getting to that
  1106. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:29:11:how many altcoins are there on the market now?
  1107. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:29:24:you can keep calling it altcoins
  1108. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:29:33:no, i mean real altcoins, like doge or dash
  1109. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:29:40:But it's a matter of convincing people
  1110. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:29:42:as you said it
  1111. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:29:45:you can create a coin whenever you want
  1112. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:29:47:right
  1113. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:29:49:I can say, on the other hand
  1114. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:12:That both ClassicCoin and CoreCoin are alt coins and the OldCoreCoins are the real one
  1115. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:22:I know that there are some people still using old clients
  1116. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:28:And call those coins BTC
  1117. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:30:34:right, the original bitcoin has a 32 MB blocksize limit
  1118. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:30:39:we stopped using Bitcoin years ago
  1119. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:41:indeed
  1120. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:53:Satoshi's you mena
  1121. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:30:55:mean
  1122. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:31:17:yes, before he added the 1 MB limit
  1123. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:31:26:ok
  1124. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:31:32:Back to my question
  1125. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:31:37:Currently,
  1126. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:31:43:As you estimate,
  1127. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:13:There is 75% chance that all of my coins (I have about 5 BTC :) ) will be splitted into CoreBTC and ClassicBTC
  1128. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:23:And that I'll have two functioning wallet
  1129. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:32:30:i think the premise that you're getting to is 1 coin = 1 unit of value, and so this fork will split the value
  1130. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:32:Which will allow me to transact each
  1131. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:41:not
  1132. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:43:no
  1133. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:32:49:I didn't get to value yet.
  1134. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:33:10:I want to fully agree on what will happen first
  1135. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:33:16:Before economic value.
  1136. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:33:38:Can I have your agreement to the above statement ? Two wallets, both are fully functional - 75% chance ?
  1137. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:33:55:maybe something like that
  1138. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:34:02:can we move on?
  1139. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:02:75% maybe
  1140. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:05:Your words
  1141. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:05::)
  1142. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:12:Yes, now we're moving on
  1143. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:18:Let's discuss value
  1144. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:22:sec
  1145. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:42:(I know and recognize it's painfull for you. You didn't want it)
  1146. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:34:52:Value:
  1147. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:07:My estimation, is that due to the major mainstream media drama,
  1148. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:13:"Bitcoin Split"
  1149. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:15:bla bla bla
  1150. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:21:You can picture it yourself,
  1151. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:40:The value of ClassicBitcoin will be decreased dramatically.
  1152. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:46:At least in the short term
  1153. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:35:52:that's why we need to call it an upgrade
  1154. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:35:54:Do you agree on this estimation ?
  1155. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:36:10:but there will likely be some fluctuation, with an initial dip
  1156. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:10:I'm sure Classic will call it upgrade
  1157. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:36:16:which is a great time to buy
  1158. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:17:But the remaning Core may have other agenda
  1159. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:29:we'll get to buy in a moment
  1160. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:36:My estimation is over 50% dip.
  1161. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:37:My.
  1162. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:43:Care to guess ?
  1163. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:36:53:(75% chance it will happen, so why not guess ?)
  1164. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:36:56:i think 10%
  1165. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:37:01:ok
  1166. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:37:07:maybe 20%
  1167. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:37:10:maybe -10%
  1168. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:37:14:Ok
  1169. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:37:19:people might want to get coins before the fork so they can have both branches
  1170. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:37:33:smart thinking :)
  1171. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:37:35:I like it
  1172. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:37:51:Now, let's discuss CoreBTC value
  1173. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:37:56:and a lot of people will say, "Finally! bitcoin's getting fixed! last chance to get coins while they're cheap!"
  1174. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:38:09:A good one.
  1175. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:38:19:Do you agree that CoreBTC has some value as well ?
  1176. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:38:28:it will have nonzero value for a while
  1177. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:38:44:it will have low liquidity
  1178. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:38:44:good answer.
  1179. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:38:52:Are you sure?
  1180. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:38:59:pretty sure, yes
  1181. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:39:03:it will be harder to use it
  1182. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:03:I for example, intends to buy as many as possible CoreBTC
  1183. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:16:While their value is low
  1184. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:19:Well, i
  1185. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:23:I want to be accurate
  1186. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:39:26:and you will lose money, like the people who bought feathercoin
  1187. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:36:It depends on how many Core developers will remain
  1188. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:39:46:nope, not really
  1189. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:54:But if I'll see a good healthy team still working on Core, I intend to buy
  1190. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:39:56:Really.
  1191. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:39:57:it depends on whether the initial userbase has a preference for one or the other
  1192. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:40:11:Also true.
  1193. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:40:16:people want to be able to transact effectively with other people
  1194. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:40:19:But I don't know how to poll it.
  1195. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:40:29:a currency has value in proportion to the number of users and recipient
  1196. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:40:31:ss
  1197. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:40:39:agree on that
  1198. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:40:46:But at least initially,
  1199. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:40:47:it's an unstable situation to have two currencies with equal value used in the same market
  1200. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:41:03:I don't think that there will be equal value
  1201. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:07:if your neighbor trades in gold, and your cousin trades in silver, you have trouble
  1202. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:41:07:Not at all
  1203. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:41:23:But I have very easy way to exhange
  1204. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:28:so you convince one of them to accept the currency of the other
  1205. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:32:just so you can transact
  1206. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:41:38:I can guess that ShapeShift and other exchanges will supprot both
  1207. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:39:bitcoin is the currency that everybody uses
  1208. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:45:that's what makes it what it is
  1209. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:52:that's what defines it as not just another altcoin
  1210. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:41:55:it is the default coin
  1211. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:41:56:But who defined what Bitcoin is ?
  1212. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:42:13:we did
  1213. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:42:13:What was Bitcoin governance model when Satoshi was around ?
  1214. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:42:14:by using it
  1215. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:42:31:satoshi just wrote a program and then talked about it
  1216. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:42:35:the users made bitcoin a thing
  1217. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:42:48:agree on that
  1218. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:43:02:and bitcoin has stood the test of many altcoins, over and over, because bitcoin is what people accept
  1219. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:43:16:there can only be one
  1220. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:43:27:"to rule them and bind them:
  1221. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:43:31:anyway,
  1222. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:43:42:except for a few diehards who want to stay true to something or other that they think is more important than actually being able to use the currency.
  1223. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:43:43:I don't agree that there can only be one
  1224. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:44:09:ok, not only one, but if there are going to be more with similar values, they have to have very different properties that make them usable in different ways
  1225. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:44:15:Calling people you have disagrement with "dirhards" is not fair.
  1226. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:44:24:in the world, we have many different currencies, because each one is usable in a different region
  1227. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:44:37:in cryptocurrencies, everyone is connected by the internet
  1228. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:44:50:so you have to have software with a big advantage for certain use cases
  1229. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:45:12:litecoin and doge have faster blocks, and that's why 0.5% of the crypto users use them
  1230. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:45:15:Can I give you my estimations ?
  1231. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:45:24:dash has some interesting security features, so it gets a nonzero percentage too
  1232. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:45:33:sure, go ahead
  1233. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:45:52:- I estimate that most of the core developers will remain to work on Core
  1234. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:46:14:- I also estimate that Core will have non zero value initially, and it will rise sharply
  1235. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:46:17:In addition,
  1236. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:46:31:I estimate that there will be PoW and transaction number change
  1237. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:46:42:And that it will attract a lot of miners from the GPU era
  1238. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:47:06:Instead of two companies (BitFury, BitmainTech) that has the ability to easily control more then 90% of the hash-rate
  1239. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:47:19:The mining playing field will be leveled
  1240. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:47:30:for a few months...
  1241. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:47:36:Everyone will be able to setup industrial mining
  1242. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:47:48:Not for a few months.
  1243. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:02:If you're going to fix the mining problem, you're going to do it right
  1244. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:07:There are ways to do it.
  1245. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:25:You can totally prevent ASICiszation if you already doing Hard Forks
  1246. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:27:So,
  1247. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:35:Again, my estimations:
  1248. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:40:And only my estimations:
  1249. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:48:42:how, by hard forking again?
  1250. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:49:yes
  1251. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:54:for example
  1252. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:48:57:Or
  1253. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:49:04:so CoreBTC would be the coin that hard forks every 6 months?
  1254. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:08:Setting the stage to a more elaborate schema
  1255. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:11:For example
  1256. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:15:Or 3 months
  1257. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:25:With one mont of both PoWs working together
  1258. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:26:So,
  1259. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:49:27:like Scrypt mining? That was supposed to be asic resistant...
  1260. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:28:Suddenly,
  1261. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:39:That was a failed experiment
  1262. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:44:People learn and adapt
  1263. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:49:46:So,
  1264. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:01:Let's assume Core find a way to fix mining centralization
  1265. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:04:Once and for all
  1266. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:09:No way to do ASIC
  1267. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:22:As a CEO of ASIC company, I can tell you that it's possible
  1268. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:29:Now they have the incentive to do it.
  1269. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:44:After what they preceived as total war from the miners.
  1270. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:50:46:is keccak ASIC-hard?
  1271. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:50:59:I didn't look at it closely.
  1272. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:07:I'm talking ASIC-less
  1273. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:09:not ASIC-hard
  1274. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:14:So,
  1275. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:25:Core suddenly seems a much more interesting coin
  1276. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:51:27:NIST says no
  1277. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:32:No more BitFury
  1278. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:39:No More BitmainTech
  1279. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:45:Everyone can setup GPUs farms
  1280. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:51:50:There are levels of no
  1281. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:00:And you can decide always to HF every few months
  1282. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:52:11:that doesn't sound like a fun coin to use
  1283. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:13:Do you see such scenario happening ?
  1284. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:19:Why ?
  1285. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:25:Much more democratic
  1286. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:52:35:fighting miners? hard forking every few months? forcing users to reinstall software every few months?
  1287. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:36:You like democracy. Don't you ?
  1288. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:44:So,
  1289. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:52:46:no, i don't think that's democratic
  1290. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:47:one by one:
  1291. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:52:53:Fighting miners -
  1292. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:53:01:i think that's just chaotic and disorderly
  1293. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:53:14:You remove the old players. A LOT of old old player will be happy to get back in the games
  1294. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:53:25:who would want to use that system when there's another system out there where everything just works?
  1295. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:53:28:Instead of buying $13 ASIC from Bitfury, which cost them $3 or so to make
  1296. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:53:44:Too many questions
  1297. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:53:49:One by one
  1298. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:04:Hard forking every few months -
  1299. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:54:05:guy, i think you're letting yourself be ruled by your fear and not by your reason
  1300. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:17:ok, so my opinion
  1301. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:21:I, Guy Corem,
  1302. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:31:Actually looking forward to this day.
  1303. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:42:As Olivier says - Competition Is Good.
  1304. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:54:54:So let's compete on branches as well.
  1305. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:01:Not only on wallet features.
  1306. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:07:I'm total honest here.
  1307. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:19:I think that Core can fix mining centralization, easily.
  1308. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:28:And force a never ending GPU era.
  1309. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:37:The cost to the users will be minor.
  1310. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:55:50:mining centralization is largely a function of electricity price and of engineering skill/luck
  1311. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:52:And I think that it will be much more robust and fun coin to use.
  1312. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:55:56:and capital
  1313. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:55:59:So,
  1314. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:56:06:I know this part much better then you.
  1315. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:56:29:There are something I can't tell in public
  1316. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:56:49:But I can tell you that wer'e in an iron grip of BitFury and soon BitmainTech as well.
  1317. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:01:We're leavning the mining centralization
  1318. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:10:With every miner we buy, we make them richer and stronger.
  1319. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:19:They might act responsibly.
  1320. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:21:Probably
  1321. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:26:But they MIGHT decide not to.
  1322. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:57:31:they have a lot invested in acting responsibly...
  1323. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:57:43:I prefer a coin in which they simply CAN'T
  1324. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:57:50:try stellar
  1325. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:57:57:there's no mining at all
  1326. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:58:06:no, for other reasons I don't want to get into.
  1327. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:58:34:I think that my points were clear.
  1328. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:58:49:I want to thank you for lauching Classic and free us from a tyranny
  1329. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:58:52:so guy, why hasn't this happened with hard forks in altcoins?
  1330. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:58:55:But not Core teranny
  1331. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:59:08:But Mining centralization.
  1332. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:59:13:each time a hard fork has happened in other coins, it has just been an upgrade
  1333. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:59:22:and the minority branch has gotten forgotten
  1334. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:59:22:It can hapen.
  1335. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 09:59:31:so ?
  1336. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:59:55:why do people want to go out of their way to use a system that has lower functionality and lower capacity?
  1337. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 09:59:59:and fewer users to trade with?
  1338. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:00:17:Time will tell if they'll have fewer user.
  1339. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:00:23:Why do we need Bitcoins ?
  1340. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:00:29:Banks have many more users
  1341. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:00:33:Kidding.
  1342. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:00:48:Regarding the block size debate.
  1343. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:00:52:because banks charge $35 to send $1 overseas...
  1344. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:01:05:Indeed.
  1345. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:01:32:My opinion is that Core should have done a kick the can solution, like your initial suggestion.
  1346. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:01:39:so guy, it sounds like you want to get even with the other miners
  1347. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:01:41:I agree with a lot of things you're tring to do.
  1348. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:01:48:Not at all.
  1349. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:02:30:I think that I have good business plan for post Classic activation.
  1350. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:02:32:i mean, it sounds like you want to see this scenario happen
  1351. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:02:37:I do.
  1352. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:02:39:so
  1353. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:02:44:Initially,
  1354. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:02:49:so you're not thinking of how to make it not happen
  1355. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:00:Now not
  1356. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:07:let me tell you my timeline
  1357. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:13:Thursday - shock.
  1358. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:03:16:you aren't thinking of how to bring people together under one umbrella
  1359. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:19:Friday - Anger.
  1360. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:31:Saturday - Bargaining
  1361. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:36:Sunday - acceptance
  1362. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:03:42:the exchanges hold a lot of power
  1363. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:03:43:Now,
  1364. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:03:49:so do the payment processors
  1365. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:04:I truly believe that it will good to have competition in the brahnces
  1366. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:04:12:will coinbase support CoreBTC at all? or will they stay with the majority chain only?
  1367. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:15:And personally, I internd to buy a lot of coins
  1368. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:04:16:what about bitpay?
  1369. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:20:and GPUs
  1370. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:30:so,
  1371. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:04:40:this CoreBTC will be useless if there's nowhere to spend it, and it will be forgotten in time like all of the other hard forks
  1372. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:42:I think that Core PR strategy will be:
  1373. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:50:Classic is corporate coins
  1374. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:04:56:(just my estimation)
  1375. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:05:17:i also disagree with your estimation of the number of devs that will choose to hardfork
  1376. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:05:17:So Core will be preceived as the "real bitcoins" to die hards, libertans, etc
  1377. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:05:28:I guess that we'll see :)
  1378. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:05:35:You know them probably better then me.
  1379. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:05:38:But wait,
  1380. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:05:39:i think the majority of devs want to work on the majority coin, and won't want to play chicken once it's clear which one that is
  1381. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:05:58:Why do you object to my vision of comeptition ?
  1382. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:04:Isn't competition good ?
  1383. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:17:I mean, you didn't want to git-cherry pick ?
  1384. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:26:You should want core to have strong team.
  1385. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:37:moment
  1386. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:41:I want you to read something
  1387. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:06:50:i want bitcoin to have a strong team
  1388. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:06:52:http://fieryspinningsword.com/2015/08/25/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-fork/
  1389. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:07:19:https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3i9eiv/how_i_learned_to_stop_worrying_and_love_the_fork/
  1390. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:07:31:i don't think many devs really want to take the chance of disregarding the will of users and miners
  1391. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:07:40:and i don't think it matters if they do
  1392. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:07:50:devs don't have the final power
  1393. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:07:51:(And only for Hebrew speaking, sorry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWsBWnK7sig&feature=youtu.be&t=55m25s)
  1394. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:08:06:and what we're realizing now is that users and miners do have that power
  1395. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:08:11:and the core devs are afraid
  1396. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:08:22:Why do you use this term ?
  1397. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:08:27:they're threatening doom and gloom, because fear is the only tool they have left
  1398. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:08:39:If I'm a core dev, I would have accepted the chalange
  1399. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:08:42:and be happy with it.
  1400. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:16:After they'll come to realize that it's not the end of daus
  1401. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:17:days
  1402. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:20:Like I did
  1403. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:32:And like Meni understood and wrote about
  1404. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:40:They'll be happy with the challenge
  1405. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:09:53:It's much more fun to work from an underdog position
  1406. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:10:07:Much greater satisfaction to win when it's hard
  1407. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:10:16:Maybe you'll come back to work with Core ?
  1408. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:10:17::)
  1409. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:10:51:no, i just want to make bitcoin grow as much as the data shows it can
  1410. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:11:22:You have difference of opinion with other Core developers
  1411. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:11:29:They want the same, but in another way
  1412. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:11:41:So you decide to compete with them and branch
  1413. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:11:44:Which is ok
  1414. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:11:45:we have a disagreement about how to generate fees
  1415. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:11:53:and how to improve UX
  1416. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:12:09:they think that keeping blocks full is a good idea
  1417. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:12:09:This soon many more issues that will be put to popular vote
  1418. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:12:15:What you have, in essence
  1419. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:12:23:Is diagreement on governance model
  1420. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:12:38:Here is my final prediction.
  1421. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:12:41:Two coins:
  1422. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:12:42:what we have, in essence, is a disagreement on blocksize.
  1423. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:13:07:ClassicCore - Kind of democratic governance and centralied ASIC mining
  1424. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:13:15:I meant ClassicBTC
  1425. 1|邱少賢:2016-01-20 10:13:21:Competition is OK. But I don't think it would be good if the chains split for a long time, it will really cause chaos
  1426. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:13:52:And CoreBTC - kind of meritocracy with completely decentralized GPU based mining
  1427. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:13:53:people don't like maintaining two wallets
  1428. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:14:07:you're naive a bit
  1429. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:14:08:people don't like having a wallet that isn't useful for much
  1430. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:14:17:i think that SPV wallet will support both
  1431. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:14:20:i've lost hundreds of namecoin
  1432. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:14:29:you'll just need to select which you want to transact with
  1433. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:14:36:it's not hard to implement.
  1434. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:14:42:just because i forgot to move the wallet over when i upgraded computers
  1435. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:15:21:you'll need two copies of the blockchain
  1436. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:15:31:in non SPV - yes
  1437. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:16:05:i don't see why this would be different from any other altcoin
  1438. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:16:24:And a lot of users will say the same on ClassicBTC
  1439. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:17:18:so if we're talking about using GPUs to fix centralization...
  1440. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:17:20:Jonathan,
  1441. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:17:25:and changing the algorithm every 6 months...
  1442. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:17:25:sec
  1443. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:17:45:then what prevents people from just accumulating GPUs and FPGAs and using them immediately on the next PoW function?
  1444. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:17:45:(it was just one example. There are better one)
  1445. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:17:57:it is true
  1446. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:01:But anyone can do it.
  1447. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:05:You need:
  1448. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:06:- Money
  1449. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:11:- Low cost electricity
  1450. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:18:13:even worse, they would make guesses about what the next PoW fucntion is going to be, and prepare an asic for it
  1451. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:21:- Good GPU / FPGA programmers
  1452. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:18:24:maybe they might have insider information among the devs
  1453. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:24:- so,
  1454. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:30:regarding the last question:
  1455. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:18:33:the thing about ASICs is that they're stable
  1456. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:18:37:there's nothing that comes after them
  1457. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:43:I can see a rotating commitee of devs
  1458. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:46:say 5 people
  1459. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:18:53:each serve for one year
  1460. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:18:54:there's little chance that the NSA secretly has a way to hash better and faster than them
  1461. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:19:06:GPUs just aren't as secure as ASICs
  1462. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:19:22:two many questions.
  1463. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:19:42:with each reset, you're opening up to 51% attacks from someone who can quickly roll out an ASIC.
  1464. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:19:42:I have several ideas how to completely prevent ASICiszation
  1465. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:19:55:not if you'll do it fast enough
  1466. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:20:19:And in a way which almost completely prevent corruption of selection
  1467. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:21:14:well, whatever
  1468. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:21:18::)
  1469. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:21:21:One last question:
  1470. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:21:25:the economics of a currency is the point you're missing
  1471. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:21:58:the currencies are like a bowl of water balanced on a rope. if it starts to tip one side, then the water flows to that side, and it tips faster.
  1472. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:22:05:While chatting with you, I'm completely alone. I'm chattign with no one in the background. Is it the same with you ?
  1473. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:22:08:users are the water. they flow to where the other users are.
  1474. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:22:19:it's 7:22 am here
  1475. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:22:25:nobody is awake
  1476. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:22:31:I meant by chat
  1477. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:22:32::)
  1478. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:22:35:or nobody at work, at least, except me
  1479. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:24:22:Jonathan,
  1480. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:24:30:Thanks a lot for taking the time to chat with me.
  1481. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:24:34:sure
  1482. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:24:47:I enjoyed it very much.
  1483. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:24:49:i just hope you don't spend all of your money on nothing...
  1484. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:25:02:I guess we'll see :)
  1485. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:25:19:I don't presume to know who will have bigger market share
  1486. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:25:53:My intention is to look at the development team behind each branch
  1487. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:25:54:it's an empirical question
  1488. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:26:16:by the way, we've had a lot of companies donating developers to us recently
  1489. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:26:24:But I do think that CoreBTC having greater value then ClassicBTC is a feasible future
  1490. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:26:36:Especially if marketed correctly
  1491. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:26:59:In the aspect of mining and in the aspect of not being under corporate control
  1492. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:27:03:right, because it will have hard forks every 6 months...
  1493. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:27:04:The irony ;)
  1494. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:27:21:You pretty much said the same about ClassicCoin above
  1495. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:27:26:you do know that a lot of core devs are strongly opposed to rolling out hard forks without a long period of advance notice, right?
  1496. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:27:40:I do know
  1497. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:27:52:sipa believes that the version should be out for 6 months minimum, and preferably 12 months, to give users time to upgrade
  1498. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:28:13:And I can think of ways to prevent Hard Fork (after the first one) alltogether and still make it completely ASIC-less
  1499. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:28:23:i don't see how that is compatible with your fork-suddenly-every-6-months-to-reset-PoW scenario
  1500. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:29:12:There are manual solutions which can be done in way which be almost impossible to corrupt
  1501. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:29:28:And I'm also thinking on non-manual ways, without hard fork
  1502. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:29:37:And in any case,
  1503. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:29:45:Once you are forced to do Hard Fork once
  1504. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:30:04:And see that it's not hat terrible (my believe, not core), they'll do it more often ;)
  1505. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:31:08:i can only think of 3 devs who i think would be interested in participating in your scenario
  1506. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:31:16:oh, maybe 4
  1507. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:31:36:You know them much better then me
  1508. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:31:38:But
  1509. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:31:47:With time, it might change
  1510. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:31:52:and they're also the devs that people don't like as much...
  1511. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:31:53:I believe that it will change
  1512. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:32:20:Once people will understand that having two branches isn't the end of the days
  1513. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:32:26:Again - Competition is Good!
  1514. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:32:32:(Olivier's words)
  1515. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:32:36:So let's compete
  1516. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:32:57:I don't understand why it bother you so much
  1517. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:33:04:Think it over
  1518. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:33:06:using the same distributed public ledger system is also good...
  1519. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:33:21:Read Meni's article and talk with him
  1520. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:33:46:You seems a bit centralized
  1521. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:34:03:Democracy is also accepting competing Bitcoins
  1522. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:34:15:no, that's not democracy
  1523. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:34:17:that's anarchy
  1524. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:34:38:democracy is where you make a vote, and then everybody is bound by the vote regardless of whether they agree with it or not
  1525. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:34:48:well, I would think that staging a coup by two guys and one reluctant developer is anarchy ;)
  1526. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:00:You vote, after doing the coup
  1527. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:13:I want to remove those terms
  1528. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:17:As i said,
  1529. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:24:I embrace and happy about Classic
  1530. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:51:I think that in the long term, it will be good to Bitcoin to have several competing chains
  1531. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:35:56:And governance models
  1532. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:38:46:Jonathan ?
  1533. 1|Jonathan Toomim:2016-01-20 10:39:01:i think i'm going to go code
  1534. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:39:07:yup
  1535. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:39:12:I'm going home as well.
  1536. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:39:17:Thanks for the time.
  1537. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:39:27:If I offended you in anyway, I apologize.
  1538. 1|Guy Corem:2016-01-20 10:39:49:I truly wish you success in your project. It will bring interesting times.
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