☆drew: let's just
☆drew: say something in discord
☆ItzViper482: k
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆drew: u do it
☆ItzViper482: n
☆ItzViper482: mr. badge
☆drew: you have the link
☆drew: nerd
☆ItzViper482: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7lc-549299962
☆ItzViper482: c/p that
☆ItzViper482: hf
☆drew: lol
elec(-'◡')pm joined.
☆ItzViper482: ok
☆ItzViper482: u wanna star lol
☆ItzViper482: start*
☆drew: uuuuuuh
☆drew: 1 more person?
Altariel von sweep joined.
☆drew: cool
Altariel von sweep: hi guys
☆drew: hello
☆drew: who wants to start
Thunderboy joined.
therealslap joined.
067allstar joined.
Altariel von sweep: which is the topic
☆drew: suspect
Altariel von sweep: all right
067allstar: can suspect
067allstar: my dick
067allstar: *we
therealslap: just modchat
Altariel von sweep was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
therealslap: and not voice allstar
067allstar: :(
067allstar: slap
therealslap was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
067allstar: fite me
Thunderboy left.
067allstar: uu and lc
Moderated chat was set to +!
Only users of rank + and higher can talk.
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆ItzViper482: gj
rssp1 joined.
☆drew: so
rssp1 was promoted to Room Voice by ItzViper482.
+rssp1: u cant silence me
☆ItzViper482: o
+rssp1: o
☆ItzViper482: im dumb
☆ItzViper482: LOL
+rssp1: gg
☆drew: i thought u were global
☆ItzViper482: he is
☆drew: lol
+rssp1: i am
PD joined.
☆drew: pd will u be serious?
PD was promoted to Room Voice by ItzViper482.
☆ItzViper482: ok
rssp1 left.
☆ItzViper482: so like
elec(-'◡')pm left.
☆ItzViper482: bye rssp
+PD: whats dis fo
☆drew: suspect
☆ItzViper482: suspect debate
+PD: huh
☆drew: debate
elec(-'◡')pm joined.
☆ItzViper482: lmao
☆ItzViper482: ok so ill start
☆ItzViper482: about ur thing on how sun isnt a mon
elec(-'◡')pm was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
☆ItzViper482: and u cant just put it on a team
+PD: debate over sun teams?
☆drew: yes
+PD: alright proceed
☆ItzViper482: i think that we should concider sun like we would anything thats broken
sam-testings joined.
sam-testings was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
+sam-testings: waht is this bullshit
☆ItzViper482: we are talking about suspect
☆ItzViper482: without clogging thread
+sam-testings: theres this thing called
+sam-testings: discord
+sam-testings: that we all use
☆ItzViper482: we didnt want to clog that
☆drew: meh
☆ItzViper482: LOL
+sam-testings: and theres a chat there
+sam-testings: that we all use
☆drew: nah
☆drew: im gud
+sam-testings: called metagame and qc
+sam-testings: u kno
+sam-testings: metagame
+sam-testings: the thing that suspects are baout
+sam-testings: are you fucking daft
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆ItzViper482: it was drews idea
+sam-testings: drew
+sam-testings: ur stupid
☆ItzViper482: gone.
☆drew: cool
☆ItzViper482: ok
☆ItzViper482: so yeah i feel like sun is a playstyle but a very broken one
☆ItzViper482: i compaired it to fighting spam
☆ItzViper482: in my post
sam-testings was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
☆drew: be a good boy
☆ItzViper482: which is the second best playstyle rn
☆drew: n
☆drew: balance and bo
☆drew: are right there
☆ItzViper482: ..
☆ItzViper482: those are
☆ItzViper482: not playstyles
☆drew: yes
☆drew: they are
☆ItzViper482: those are team archtypes
☆drew: and sun isnt?
☆ItzViper482: sun would be considered hyper offence
☆drew: n
☆ItzViper482: if we were going by that logic
☆drew: there's sun balance
☆drew: sun bo
☆ItzViper482: yeah
☆ItzViper482: thats why
☆ItzViper482: its a playstyle
☆ItzViper482: cause ur adding those words
☆ItzViper482: at the end
☆drew: ok w/e
☆drew: continue
☆ItzViper482: so yeah sun outclasses fight spam p hard and is a lot better
☆ItzViper482: and what it can do
☆ItzViper482: leads me to say its broken
+sam-testings: huh
☆drew: ok so
+sam-testings: thats not a good arguement
☆ItzViper482: sam
☆drew: playstyles
☆ItzViper482: he compaired sun
☆drew: cant outclass each other
☆ItzViper482: to stall
☆ItzViper482: lol
Sea Bass OP ☭ joined.
+sam-testings: just cuz an archetype happens to be better than another one
Sea Bass OP ☭ was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
+sam-testings: isnt an argument to ban it really
☆ItzViper482: well
☆ItzViper482: like i said
☆ItzViper482: what sun does
☆ItzViper482: leads me to say ban
+sam-testings: if i had time to get reqs
☆ItzViper482: we were on the topic of sun being a playstyle b4
+sam-testings: id say no ban honestly
+sam-testings: im with macle on this one
☆ItzViper482: macle said
☆ItzViper482: that bell should be banned
☆ItzViper482: right?
+sam-testings: yeah
☆drew: that makes more sense imo
☆ItzViper482: dude did u read what star said in discord
☆drew: but still nah
+sam-testings: no viper
+sam-testings: what did starm say
☆drew: what?
☆ItzViper482: Starmaster - Today at 6:01 PM
☆ItzViper482: if u think sun is still a problem, u should ban pix
☆ItzViper482: we are never suspecting sprout
☆ItzViper482: Starmaster - Today at 6:01 PM
☆drew: star isnt
+sam-testings: starm is dumb
☆ItzViper482: this is ur one chance
☆ItzViper482: to ban sun
☆drew: tl
+sam-testings: we can suspect sprout
☆ItzViper482: but
☆ItzViper482: he is right
+sam-testings: macle happens to be a tl
+sam-testings: no he isnt
☆ItzViper482: this is the one chance to ban sun
+sam-testings: what rules are there
+sam-testings: against banning sprout
☆drew: uh no
+sam-testings: literally none
☆ItzViper482: i doubt they would suspect it again
☆drew: we suspected di like
☆drew: 3 times
+elec(-'◡')pm: didnt ou ban excadrill to limit sand
+sam-testings: dude we suspected dug like 4 times
☆drew: dig*
+elec(-'◡')pm: back in gen 5
☆ItzViper482: yh
☆ItzViper482: i understand that
☆ItzViper482: but why save vulp
☆ItzViper482: is there a reason?
+sam-testings: and it would be a very different suspect too
+sam-testings: yeah
+sam-testings: diverse metagame
Sea Bass OP ☭ left.
☆ItzViper482: banning vulp and bell leads to same outcome
+sam-testings: no it wouldnt
☆ItzViper482: except there is a less viable sun still alive
+sam-testings: sun would still be a playstyle
☆drew: n
+elec(-'◡')pm: sun would still be an archetype
+sam-testings: just much less good
☆drew: banning sprout weaknes sun
+sam-testings: and thats fine
☆drew: banning vulpix bans sun
☆ItzViper482: so
☆ItzViper482: have we all agreed
+sam-testings: try to keep change in the meta to a minimum really
☆ItzViper482: that bell is the problem?
☆drew: there's a huge difference
+sam-testings: yeah i agree with that
+elec(-'◡')pm: bell is
☆drew: ya
☆ItzViper482: hm
☆ItzViper482: im suprised you wouldnt be voting ban on this one then
☆ItzViper482: dont you all agree that IF they dont suspecy sun again then you would want sun gone so it isnt broke
☆drew: i dont think vulpix is a problem
☆ItzViper482: thats what i dont get
☆ItzViper482: what if they never suspect sun again
☆drew: no
☆ItzViper482: and its still there
☆ItzViper482: and broke
☆drew: viper
☆drew: u can suscpect something
☆drew: more than once
☆ItzViper482: i know
☆ItzViper482: im saying
☆ItzViper482: IF
+PD: i.e diglett
☆drew: if anything it may happen again after lcpl
☆ItzViper482: im saying
+sam-testings: viper
+sam-testings: the thing is
+sam-testings: thats not happening
☆ItzViper482: dont put your hopes on it
+sam-testings: we all agree that sun is a problem
+sam-testings: so taht means
+sam-testings: there will be another suspect
+sam-testings: thats how suspects work
☆ItzViper482: but like
+sam-testings: this is where i get to claim seniority and bring up history class
☆ItzViper482: merrity said this b4
+sam-testings: 1st diglett suspect
+PD: okay okay slow it down.
+PD: drew
+sam-testings: didnt really do much
☆drew: ?
+sam-testings: we voted against ban
+PD: what is the consensus you are trying to meet?
+PD: ItzViper482
+PD: what is the point you are trying to prove
☆drew: nothing in particular
☆drew: just debating
+sam-testings: second diglett suspect is where it got a lot more contentious
+PD: yes but it must revolve around
+PD: something..
+Altariel von sweep: i dotn think any what viper says proves anything
+sam-testings: because a good amount of people actually wanted it banned this time
☆ItzViper482: Im trying to say that 1) Sun is broken and 2)If you think that bell is broken vote ban now
☆drew: no
+PD: I see
☆drew: i disagree with that
+sam-testings: yeah
☆drew: banning sun now makes it much harder to suspect bell and get pix back
☆ItzViper482: wait
☆ItzViper482: holdup
☆drew: as sun wont have enough testing
+PD: so you are basically saying that the primary backbone of sun isnt vulpix autosetting it but the sweepers themselves?
☆ItzViper482: lemme get back to the thing merrity said
+PD: primarily bellsprout?
☆drew: ya
hilomilo joined.
☆ItzViper482: that confuses me
☆drew: if sproput didnt exist
hilomilo was promoted to Room Voice by ItzViper482.
☆drew: sun wouldnt be suspected
+PD: ^
+PD: hmm
+PD: well this gen
+PD: is completely different
+PD: z celebrate bulb in the sun is a problem itself
☆ItzViper482: if vulp didnt exist
☆ItzViper482: sun wouldnt be suspected
☆ItzViper482: whats ur point?
+sam-testings: pd, make a sproutless sun team
+sam-testings: and realise
☆drew: but pd it certainly isnt bannable
+sam-testings: that sun really relies on sprout
+PD: yeah
+sam-testings: like sprout is 100% the reason why its broken
+PD: !dt bellsprout
[not supported in replays]
Dex#: 69 |  Gen: 1 |  Height: 0.7 m |  Weight: 4 kg (20 BP) |  Dex Colour: Green |  Egg Group(s): Grass |  Evolution: Weepinbell (21)
+sam-testings: z bulba is good
+PD: !dt bulbasaur
[not supported in replays]
Dex#: 1 |  Gen: 1 |  Height: 0.7 m |  Weight: 6.9 kg (20 BP) |  Dex Colour: Green |  Egg Group(s): Monster, Grass |  Evolution: Ivysaur (16)
+sam-testings: but not as good as sprout lol
+PD: bulbasaur is faster
☆drew: lmao
+PD: bulkier
+PD: but what factors into
☆drew: bulba
+sam-testings: its also
+sam-testings: weak as shit
+PD: the reason why bell is better
☆drew: is 2 points faster under sun
+PD: the 5 spatk difference?
+elec(-'◡')pm: sprout's strong grass poison fire coverage is just too good
+sam-testings: no
+sam-testings: weather ball
+elec(-'◡')pm: weather ball
☆ItzViper482: i mean
+PD: they
+sam-testings: pd do you play this tier
+PD: carry
+PD: the same
+PD: moves
+sam-testings: no they dont
+elec(-'◡')pm: bulba
☆ItzViper482: are u really missing out on importent kills...
+PD: sam-testings at times
+sam-testings: bulba doesnt get weather ball
+sam-testings: ?
+elec(-'◡')pm: cannot have weather ball
+elec(-'◡')pm: with chloro
+PD: oh FRS ??
+sam-testings: again
+PD: whaaa
+sam-testings: pd do you even play this tier
☆drew: ya
☆ItzViper482: LOL
+PD: real shit?
+sam-testings: yeah
☆drew: bulba cant have weather ball and chloro
+sam-testings: lmfao
+elec(-'◡')pm: yes
☆drew: 1 or the other
☆ItzViper482: ok but hear me out
+PD: nah i've just never been a bitch enough to use sun
+PD: anywyas
+PD: continue
☆ItzViper482: what if a new drought user comes
☆ItzViper482: and it is broken
☆drew: viper
+hilomilo: it as in bellsprout?
+elec(-'◡')pm: why would that happen mid gen
+hilomilo: or the drought user
☆drew: we just got a new gen
+PD: he was most definitely referring to a drought user
+PD: hilomilo
☆drew: they NEVER add new lc mons
☆ItzViper482: im talking about
+PD: ☆ItzViper482: what if a new drought user comes
+PD: ☆ItzViper482: and it is broken
+sam-testings: viper if that happens
+sam-testings: then theres another suspect
+sam-testings: when the dpp remakes come out
☆drew: ^
+sam-testings: ?
+PD: drew start timer
☆ItzViper482: ok
☆drew: no pd
+sam-testings: that has nothing to do with this convo
+sam-testings: at all
+sam-testings: like if we were discussing ban drought
☆drew: dpp remakes
☆ItzViper482: is there a reason
+sam-testings: then that would be relevant
☆drew: are another gen away
☆ItzViper482: why bell vs vulp ban
+sam-testings: but that has nothing to do with this convo
☆ItzViper482: matters
+elec(-'◡')pm: he's just tryin to deter the convo
+sam-testings: lmfao
+sam-testings: yes
☆ItzViper482: you are limiting the same archtype
+sam-testings: i explained it already
+sam-testings: and so did macle in his post
☆ItzViper482: manual sun is a thing
+sam-testings: metagame diversity
☆ItzViper482: isnt that a nerf?
+sam-testings: manual sun is a meme
+sam-testings: just like you
☆ItzViper482: sun wont die
+sam-testings: bop
+hilomilo: there are no manual sun setters that are good
+PD: um
+elec(-'◡')pm: have you seen manual rain?
+PD: tell that to iplaytennis
☆ItzViper482: manual rain
+PD: who created
+PD: manual rain
+sam-testings: manual sun is straight ass lmfao
+PD: in nu
☆ItzViper482: is cool
+PD: and it took over the tier
+sam-testings: thats nu pd
+PD: ?
+PD: and this is lc
+elec(-'◡')pm: who cares about nu
+PD: your point?
+sam-testings: lc is very different
+elec(-'◡')pm: thats not the point of the convo
+sam-testings: and nu is a different metagame
☆ItzViper482: im so suprised rn
+hilomilo: i think bellsprout will start using sunny day itself if vulpix is banned
☆ItzViper482: we all think sun is broken
☆ItzViper482: but you all wont ban it?
+PD: alright well i apologize for deterring the conversation
+sam-testings: yes
+PD: my point is
+PD: manual weather setting isnt half bad
+sam-testings: because if we identify the broken part of sun
+elec(-'◡')pm: its not even close to as viable as auto weather abilities
+PD: why it may not be as convenient as auto setters, manual setters may in itself be just as overwhelming
+sam-testings: its not vulpix
+sam-testings: or sun
+sam-testings: its bellsprout
+PD: elec(-'◡')pm just because you rarely use it
+PD: or ever see it
☆ItzViper482: sam
+PD: does not mean it is useless
☆ItzViper482: so ur saying
+PD: like
+elec(-'◡')pm: i laddered with manual rain lmao
+PD: im p sure
+PD: i can bop
☆ItzViper482: vulp isnt the reason why sun is good
+hilomilo: manual weather setting isn't half bad in other metagames
+PD: ItzViper482
☆ItzViper482: ?
+PD: with manual sand
+hilomilo: that doesn't say anything about it here
☆ItzViper482: vulp is the only reason sun is a thing and good
+sam-testings: no viper
+sam-testings: im saying
+elec(-'◡')pm: it worked only against low ladder tbh
☆ItzViper482: bell might be the abuser
+sam-testings: we have to identify what is broken with sun
☆ItzViper482: but thats not the broken part
+sam-testings: taking out various parts of sun
☆ItzViper482: vulp is broken
☆ItzViper482: cause it sets the sun
+sam-testings: there 3 parts here
+hilomilo: manual rain is just bad, why would manual sun be any good
☆ItzViper482: no other mon does that
+sam-testings: vulp, chloro, sprout
+PD: okay now im starting to see where our positions stand
+PD: i disagree with ItzViper482
+sam-testings: vulp is definitly gonna gut sun
+sam-testings: duh
Shrug joined.
+sam-testings: so will chloro ban
+sam-testings: but lets say that we want to keep a diverse metagame
+Altariel von sweep: so
+sam-testings: and keep some form of sun
+sam-testings: banning sprout
+PD: shrug isnt global
+Altariel von sweep: which parts are divided the debate
+PD: voice him
+hilomilo: its not about keeping a diverse metagame sam
+Altariel von sweep: im pretty lost
+PD: drew
Shrug was promoted to Room Voice by ItzViper482.
+hilomilo: its about keeping a healthy metagame
067allstar left.
+sam-testings: does that
+sam-testings: yeah
+sam-testings: and banning sprout also does that
☆ItzViper482: Shrug rn we are talking about vulp vs bellsprout ban
+hilomilo: as does banning vulpix
+PD: okay well said hilomilo
+Altariel von sweep: so, what about the other sun abusers
+hilomilo: if they are looking at an archetype, then why look at a mon that isn't the centerpiece of said archetype?
+elec(-'◡')pm: they arent as broken
☆ItzViper482: hilomilo is right
+Altariel von sweep: yeah, supposed so
+elec(-'◡')pm: due to their lack of strong and abusive coverage
☆ItzViper482: thats what ive been trying to say
☆drew: what
☆ItzViper482: but im bad
☆drew: went to bathroom
+sam-testings: diversity is good
+hilomilo: vulpix IS the centerpiece of sun
+hilomilo: sun is unhealthy
+sam-testings: so is
+sam-testings: sprout
+sam-testings: pix + sprout
☆ItzViper482: n sam
☆ItzViper482: sprout
+sam-testings: is the centerpiece
☆ItzViper482: isnt the center
+sam-testings: are you all fucking daft
+sam-testings: did you play oras lc
☆ItzViper482: without sprout vulp does fine, without vulp sprout dies
☆ItzViper482: ^^^
Guest 6182961 joined.
+Altariel von sweep: bellsprout cannot do much without any sun user
+sam-testings: so
☆ItzViper482: that is the fucking meaning of centerpiece
☆ItzViper482: shown out to you
+sam-testings: without sprout vulp doesnt do fine
+elec(-'◡')pm: back in oras bellsprout was the only viable sun sweeper
Battle between drew and ItzViper482 started!
Go! Inkay!
ItzViper482 sent out Karrablast!
Turn 1
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆ItzViper482: ez leads
☆drew: ;)
+hilomilo: lmao that scared me
+sam-testings: thats the fuckin meaning of centerpiece too
Inkay, come back!
Go! Kabuto!
The opposing Karrablast used Drill Run!
It's super effective! A critical hit! Kabuto lost 80% of its health!
[Kabuto's Weak Armor!]
Kabuto's Defense fell!
Kabuto's Speed rose sharply!
Turn 2
+sam-testings: cuz sun is bad wuthout sprout
+sam-testings: LOL
☆drew: ok ill stop
+PD: i feel as if while bellsprout may be the main abuser and sun may be set always by vulpix, we need to explore all that makes them broken as a whole
+hilomilo: wait can we not battle?
+PD: so listen to me
+sam-testings: nice crit
+PD: without
+sam-testings: lmfao
☆drew: im just meming
+PD: !dt drill run
[not supported in replays]
Priority: 0 |  Gen: 5 |  ✓ Contact |  Z-Power: 160 |  Target: One Adjacent Pokémon
☆ItzViper482: lol
+PD: high critical
+sam-testings: :^)
+PD: anyways
+hilomilo: let's not do this guys
+elec(-'◡')pm: ok so
+hilomilo: we were kinda having a good convo
+PD: what really makes a difference
+PD: between
+PD: bellsprout as a sweeper
+PD: gen 7
+sam-testings: z moves
+elec(-'◡')pm: fall of fletchling
+PD: and bellsprout as a sweeper gen 6
+PD: yes
+PD: exactly
+sam-testings: no wea rent banning z moves
+sam-testings: i talked about this with quote
+elec(-'◡')pm: lol banning z moves
+sam-testings: its hard to ban z moves
+Altariel von sweep: everyone just complains about that
+PD: the usage of z moves and the fact that all of our pokemon that were primarily or occasionally able to check sun/counter it... were all crippled
+sam-testings: cuz it leads to complex ban shit
+Altariel von sweep: when there is a way to take them on
+sam-testings: and we dont want that
+PD: so whats to say that
+hilomilo: but sam
+PD: with the ban of vulpix
+PD: LISTEN NIGGAS
☆ItzViper482: lol
+PD: its the domino effect
+sam-testings: ?
+PD: with the ban of vulpix and sun
+hilomilo: they have precedent for this sort of thing from gen 5
+Altariel von sweep: niBBas
☆ItzViper482: listen to pd
+sam-testings: yeah i realise hilo
+PD: will that mean that hail will overturn the metagame as the newly reigning threat to prepare for?
+sam-testings: this is a differnet metagame than gen 5 tho
+elec(-'◡')pm: ok pls no aveil
+sam-testings: with different emchanics
+PD: only possible to stop w/ sand?
+sam-testings: and all that jazz
+sam-testings: no pd
+sam-testings: hail is hot garbo
+PD: like if sun as a whole and vulpix is banned
+sam-testings: and sand isnt really that good either
+therealslap: there's fighting spam, idt hail won't be too much of a problem
+sam-testings: yeah
+sam-testings: timburr is good rn
+PD: what can stop hail teams or full fledged rain sand teams?
+sam-testings: manual rain
☆ItzViper482: uh
+sam-testings: is not that good
☆ItzViper482: good teams
☆ItzViper482: LOL
+PD: would we need the opposing weather teams just to stop the other
☆ItzViper482: pd
+sam-testings: sand is really meh
+elec(-'◡')pm: no
☆ItzViper482: u can beat hail
☆ItzViper482: 5x easier than sun
+PD: like being forced to use sand against hail
+elec(-'◡')pm: bring fightspam ez
+sam-testings: but yeah, this isnt gen5 weather wars pd
+PD: but
+sam-testings: only good weather is sun
+PD: whats fight spam
+Altariel von sweep: or like, cloud nine pokemon
+PD: to a smoochum
+PD: ^
+Altariel von sweep: but the users of it are horribly bad
+PD: !dt smoochum
[not supported in replays]
Dex#: 238 |  Gen: 2 |  Height: 0.4 m |  Weight: 6 kg (20 BP) |  Dex Colour: Pink |  Egg Group(s): Undiscovered |  Evolution: Jynx (30)
+sam-testings: !ds lc, cloud nine
Lickitung, Psyduck, Swablu
+sam-testings: ez
+elec(-'◡')pm: what's smoochum doing on a hail team?
+sam-testings: okay so
SFAT Get Back joined.
SFAT Get Back left.
+sam-testings: lickitung is really good
+PD: extra ice damage
+sam-testings: /s
+PD: w/ scarf
+therealslap: blizzard spam i guess
+elec(-'◡')pm: hail doesnt boost ice moves
+sam-testings: rip
+elec(-'◡')pm: rip
+PD: !ds ice type, lc
Amaura, Bergmite, Cubchoo, Sandshrew-Alola, Smoochum, Snorunt, Snover, Spheal, Swinub, Vanillite, Vulpix-Alola
+sam-testings: yeah i wish hail boosted ice moves
+sam-testings: would be so nice
+sam-testings: ugh
☆ItzViper482: ok
+Altariel von sweep: it makes blizz have always 100% acc
☆ItzViper482: we are
☆ItzViper482: offtopic
+PD: sun
+elec(-'◡')pm: hail should boost defense for ice types
☆ItzViper482: lol
+elec(-'◡')pm: ok so blizzard
+sam-testings: i agree elec
+elec(-'◡')pm: thats it?
+Altariel von sweep: BACK TO THE TOPIC
+sam-testings: man i wish hail was buffed more
+elec(-'◡')pm: and slush rush?
+sam-testings: slush rush is good
+sam-testings: but not enough
+PD: ?
+sam-testings: like idt sandslash a outspeeds scarfers in ou
+elec(-'◡')pm: the only abusers of them are snowshrew and cubchoo
+sam-testings: feelsbad
+PD: whats slush rush any different from chlorophyll?
shaian ✿ joined.
+sam-testings: hi shay
+PD: its the pokemon containing the abilities
+sam-testings: :3
+Altariel von sweep: their coverage
+PD: that make it unviable
Shrug left.
shaian ✿ was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
+PD: /user shaian
+sam-testings: anyways
+sam-testings: there really isnt much else to say on topic
+elec(-'◡')pm: snowshrew is walled by water types
☆ItzViper482: can we go back
☆ItzViper482: to what hilo said
+sam-testings: viper believes that we will neve have a sun suspect after this one
+hilomilo: thank you viper
+elec(-'◡')pm: so yeah back to sun
+hilomilo: i agree
+sam-testings: what did hilo say?
Guest 6182961 left.
+sam-testings: he said several things
+sam-testings: which one we talking about
☆ItzViper482: +hilomilo: its not about keeping a diverse metagame sam
☆ItzViper482: +hilomilo: its about keeping a healthy metagame
☆ItzViper482: +hilomilo: if they are looking at an archetype, then why look at a mon that isn't the centerpiece of said archetype?
+sam-testings: ah ok
+sam-testings: so
+sam-testings: my opinion is
☆drew: bell and vulpix
+hilomilo: vulpix is the centerpiece of sun
shaian ✿ left.
+sam-testings: that vulpix isnt really the centerpiece
☆drew: hilo
☆ItzViper482: how
+sam-testings: as vulpix + sprout is
☆drew: sun isnt the problem
+hilomilo: because it provides bellsprout with its offensive prowess
☆drew: bellsprout + sun is
☆ItzViper482: without sprout vulp does fine, without vulp sprout dies
+sam-testings: you could switch those names aorudn viper
☆ItzViper482: n
+sam-testings: and itd still be true
☆ItzViper482: i couldnt
+sam-testings: sun as an archetpye
+sam-testings: struggles without sprout
+PD: WAIT
☆drew: hilo think about this from an analysis standpoint
+PD: you say bellsprout + sun is the problem
+sam-testings: LOL
☆drew: we will have to go through every analysis
+sam-testings: no pd
☆drew: and remove mentions
☆drew: D:
+sam-testings: im saying that just sprout is the problem
+PD: no
+hilomilo: well no
+PD: listen
+PD: you say
☆ItzViper482: yo
☆ItzViper482: drew
+hilomilo: we'd just revamp sprout
☆ItzViper482: stop playing dirty
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆drew: lol
+PD: that the other mons arent as viable as sun abusers
+sam-testings: lmfao
+PD: because they are missing out
+Altariel von sweep: i wouldnt say that
+PD: on fire coverage correct?
+PD: well
+sam-testings: no they arent
+Altariel von sweep: jox team demostrates that sun can be played
+sam-testings: they just dont have as good fire covegae
+PD: no listen
+Altariel von sweep: even without abusers
+sam-testings: weather ball is more powerful than sludge bomb under sun
+PD: with sleep powder
+PD: on literally
+PD: every sun sweeper
+sam-testings: ?
+PD: you almost always
+PD: get a free chance to switch out
+PD: into a fire type mon
+sam-testings: uh
+PD: allowing sun to still be as overwhelming
+PD: so basically
+PD: bulbasaur can sleep a grimer
+sam-testings: pd have you played sproutless sun
+PD: go into ponyta
+PD: in the sun
+PD: ye
+sam-testings: answer the question
+sam-testings: is it good
+PD: its just as
+sam-testings: absolutely fucking not
HeaLnDeaL joined.
+PD: difficult
+PD: to deal
+PD: w
+hilomilo: z celebrate bulbasaur is still an option sam
+sam-testings: no it isnt
+PD: HEALNDEAL
+hilomilo: as is oddish
+sam-testings: yeah
+sam-testings: again
+PD: that it is
+sam-testings: none are as good as sprout
+hilomilo: its not nearly as difficult to deal with
+PD: !learn oddish, celebrate
In Gen 7, Oddish can't learn Celebrate
+sam-testings: sprout literally makes the entire sun archetpye so good
+hilomilo: but its still problematic
+sam-testings: yeah exactly
+hilomilo: but vulpix makes sprout good
+elec(-'◡')pm: sprout's powerful fire coverage make it miles ahead of other sun sweepers
%HeaLnDeaL: hi
+sam-testings: its much much more manageable without sprout
+PD: OH TRUE
+PD: vulpix
☆drew: !dt lc, chlorophyll, celebrate
No Pokémon, item, move, ability or nature named 'lc, chlorophyll, celebrate' was found. (Check your spelling?)
+PD: is what makes bellsprout good
+PD: THAT IS A GOOD POINT
+sam-testings: ds drew
+PD: holy shit
☆drew: !ds lc, chlorophyll, celebrate
[not supported in replays]
Dex#: 1 |  Gen: 1 |  Height: 0.7 m |  Weight: 6.9 kg (20 BP) |  Dex Colour: Green |  Egg Group(s): Monster, Grass |  Evolution: Ivysaur (16)
+PD: why didnt we say that earlier
+PD: hilomilo
+hilomilo: vulpix is the source of bellsprout's viability, which is why it IS the centerpiece of the sun archetype
+sam-testings: you guys did
☆drew: there we go
+elec(-'◡')pm: i thought we did
+PD: that in itself is what would make the jury consider
+sam-testings: bellsprout is the centerpiece of suns viability
+PD: vulpix being the
+PD: one that should be banned
+PD: dude
+PD: !ms chlorophyll, lc
'chlorophyll' could not be found in any of the search categories.
+sam-testings: like idk why yall started this chat
+PD: !ds chlorophyll, lc
Bellsprout, Bulbasaur, Cherubi, Cottonee, Deerling, Exeggcute, Hoppip, Oddish, Petilil, Seedot, Sewaddle, Sunkern
+sam-testings: if you all agree with each other
☆ItzViper482: well
☆ItzViper482: drew said
+hilomilo: you also need to look at it like this
☆ItzViper482: he didnt
☆ItzViper482: lol
+sam-testings: and im the only one arguing for one side
+sam-testings: drew help me
☆ItzViper482: he was posting like he didnt]
%HeaLnDeaL: I'm weird and complex bans are gay af, but I feel limiting sun to one chloro user is the correct amount of balance
☆drew: what?
+PD: lol
+sam-testings: you wanna help argue my points
☆drew: what are they
☆drew: oo
☆drew: i toook a break
+PD: ellaborate HeaLnDeaL
+sam-testings: diverse meta, sprout making sun op
+sam-testings: etc etc
☆drew: to set something up
+hilomilo: how does he need to elaborate
+hilomilo: he means
+sam-testings: lol
☆drew: ah i see
+hilomilo: one chlorophyll user per team
+PD: oh
+PD: sorry
+PD: im native american
+hilomilo: since a big problem with sun is that once sprout dies, bulbasaur or something else can just come in
%HeaLnDeaL: I feel vulpix + 2 chloro mons on a single team is busted, if it was just one chloro allowed with drought then it would be more balanced
+PD: takes me quite longer to interpret things
+hilomilo: and you're fine
+PD: well tbh
+PD: vulpix + chloro bellsprout
+PD: by itself
+PD: is just as strong
+PD: as two chloro sweepers
+PD: or problematic
+PD: allowing their to be an extra slot
+sam-testings: hilo
+PD: for a mon with utility
+sam-testings: have you played sproutless sun
+PD: or a sweeper
+sam-testings: ?
+hilomilo: yes i have
+hilomilo: with and against
+sam-testings: its pretty bad
+sam-testings: like really underwhelmin
+hilomilo: i'm in agreement with you that bellsprout is a big problem
+sam-testings: idk about you guys
+elec(-'◡')pm: sproutless sun isnt as good
☆ItzViper482: yo
+hilomilo: but this is my stance
☆ItzViper482: some1 pass me an oddish set?
F i l l e joined.
+sam-testings: but i spent like my entire suspect doing sproutless sun
+PD: alright peace, need to lift
☆ItzViper482: oh hi F i l l e
+elec(-'◡')pm: take star's set
PD left.
F i l l e was promoted to Room Voice by drew.
+sam-testings: and i was so underwhelmed
+hilomilo: vulpix gives bellsprout everything it needs to be a big problem in the meta
+F i l l e: ty
☆ItzViper482: we are talking about sun suspect
☆ItzViper482: fille is very antiban
+sam-testings: and bellsprout gives sun everything it eneds to be a big problem
+hilomilo: but provides a team with more than just that as well
+F i l l e: ok ehm
+hilomilo: if you break it down
+F i l l e: and no I'm not VERY antiban
+sam-testings: banning sprout not only nerfs sun
+F i l l e: but yea slightly anti ban
☆ItzViper482: well
☆ItzViper482: yeah
+hilomilo: bellsprout is a major boon to the viability of sun
+sam-testings: it also keeps sun around
+sam-testings: which is good for metagame diversity
☆ItzViper482: sam
+hilomilo: but vulpix is a major boon to the viability of bellsprout
☆ItzViper482: we dont nee
☆ItzViper482: need
☆ItzViper482: diversity
+hilomilo: so sun ultimately revolves around vulpix
+sam-testings: why not
☆ItzViper482: we need a stable meta
+sam-testings: whats your arguement against diversity
+F i l l e: I prefer bellsprout ban yes
☆ItzViper482: suns centerpiece is vulp
+hilomilo: and the suspect thread suggests that SUN is what we're looking
+sam-testings: NO IT ISNT
+hilomilo: looking at*
+F i l l e: and diversity+stable meta would be prefered
+sam-testings: VULPIX ISNT SUNS CENTERPIECE AT ALL
+F i l l e: Bellsprout is
+sam-testings: NO IT ISNT EITHER
+sam-testings: THE SUN CORE
+sam-testings: EVER SINCE XY LC
+sam-testings: IS SPROUT PIX
☆ItzViper482: sam
+elec(-'◡')pm: calm urself
+hilomilo: sam calm down and hear me out on this
☆ItzViper482: without sprout vulp does fine, without vulp sprout dies
+sam-testings: cores ther centerpieve
+sam-testings: im out
☆drew: currently the point of a ban is to cripple sun
+sam-testings: fuck this
sam-testings left.
☆ItzViper482: uh
☆drew: according to thread
☆ItzViper482: what
+hilomilo: lol
+hilomilo: drew i know you agreed with him to an extent so will you hear me out on something real quick?
☆drew: ok
+hilomilo: alright thanks
F i l l e left.
+hilomilo: i'm basically repeating something i already said but whatevs
+hilomilo: bellsprout's a major boon to sun's viability, definitely. but vulpix is a major boon to the viability of bellsprout
☆drew: yes
☆drew: and
+hilomilo: so if we're breaking it down, sun revolves around vulpix more than it does bellsprout
+hilomilo: at least in my eyes
☆drew: imo
+hilomilo: and we're looking at SUN, not at a specific pokemon
☆drew: sun revolves around them equally
☆ItzViper482: n
☆ItzViper482: without sprout vulp does fine, without vulp sprout dies
☆ItzViper482: im said thi
☆ItzViper482: many times
☆drew: yes sun would be at least useable w/o beelsprout
☆ItzViper482: and no1 has commented
+hilomilo: so under that circumstance, i think that vulpix should be banned
☆drew: but it relies on bellsprout
+hilomilo: but bellsprout relies on vulpix
☆drew: basically as mcuh as it does pix
☆ItzViper482: n
☆ItzViper482: without sprout vulp does fine, without vulp sprout dies
☆ItzViper482: read that
☆ItzViper482: pls
+hilomilo: we all looking at the absolute source of the entire
+hilomilo: the entire archetype
☆drew: ok fine let's say for arguements sake
☆drew: i say yes
+hilomilo: the source is vulpix since it provides bellsprout with its unhealthy offensive prowess
☆drew: whay oes that matter
☆drew: yes hilo
☆drew: which means without sprout we can keep an archetype
☆drew: while still nulliying the problem\
+hilomilo: i can understand that
☆drew: what about it?
+hilomilo: that in getting rid of bellsprout, we're decreasing the viability of sun teams
☆drew: yes
+Altariel von sweep: but if we get rid of vulpix
+hilomilo: i would honestly be fine in banning either
+Altariel von sweep: it doesnt mind either
☆drew: imo ban bell
+Altariel von sweep: we still have other sun sweepers
+hilomilo: but again, we're breaking things down to the absolute SOURCE of the problem
+Altariel von sweep: setters*
☆drew: sun is an archetype
+hilomilo: and we've agreed, that the source is vulpix (i think)
☆drew: so in the interests of keeping the tier fresh
+hilomilo: correct me if I'm wrong there
☆ItzViper482: no
☆ItzViper482: ur right
☆ItzViper482: in my eyes
+Altariel von sweep: rightie
☆ItzViper482: lol
☆drew: wait
☆drew: so are we done?
+hilomilo: well drew
+Altariel von sweep: seems so
+hilomilo: do you agree that vulpix is the source?
+hilomilo: i just wanna be on the same page
☆drew: yes
+hilomilo: okay
☆drew: but belll should be banned if anything
+hilomilo: just wanna make sure we understand each other's arguments
☆drew: if everyone isd done
☆drew: ill post this replay
+hilomilo: i think bell should be banned if we're trying to maintain viability of sun
+hilomilo: but that isn't the goal
☆drew: ?
☆drew: the goal is to decrease its viability
☆drew: either ban accoplishes that
+Altariel von sweep: yeah
☆drew: but one keeps an archetype alive
+Altariel von sweep: a ban means a lot of things
+Altariel von sweep: either good or bad
☆drew: ok i think we're done
%HeaLnDeaL: my name is heal
MeloettaTipoPlanta joined.
+hilomilo: you should finished the battle tho "3
+Altariel von sweep: i need healing
%HeaLnDeaL: would you like to be frens?
+hilomilo: :3*
☆drew: hi HeaLnDeaL
+Altariel von sweep: I need healing
MeloettaTipoPlanta left.
%HeaLnDeaL: vulpix is my fren
+Altariel von sweep: sorry, name is overwatch meme worthy
%HeaLnDeaL: vulpix cheated on me with bellsprout tho :(
☆drew: how do i
☆drew: forefit
☆drew: oo
+Altariel von sweep: /forfeit
+hilomilo: don't
+Altariel von sweep: ez
+hilomilo: i wanna see this battle lol
drew forfeited.
ItzViper482 won the battle!
+hilomilo: sigh
Altariel von sweep left.
+elec(-'◡')pm: why
+hilomilo: thank you for coming to an agreement tho drew