Report 1374

Report #1374
Skillset:                      Skill: TreeChopping
   Guild: Nekotai             Status: Finalised

Problem: There has long been a discrepancy between Commune and City passive power generation (read:
Cities get none) which has subsequently justified a wide range of other issues including territory
defense and supermob raid difficulty. One of the many results is a consistently unhealthy debate
about the obligations and requirements of maintaining said discrepency. To keep it short: Chopping
commune elder trees has always been used to harrass an organisation and its members, without fear of
equivalent reprisal. The players that bear the brunt of the stress are newbies and inexperienced
players who do not understand how the passive power generation, something they never overtly see nor
benefit from, helps mitigate the chore and damage and then some. I believe that retaining players is
far more important than passive power generation for Communes, no matter how lucrative the latter.
It would be impossible to address every single facet of discrepancy justified by the passive power
generation in a single report. I intended to address power generation AND remove foreign melding in
Cosmic planes in this report, but Shuyin convinced me to focus on power generation only and use
followup reports for each of the other focuses, so that they can be argued on their own merits. As a
note, all three solutions are intended to be implemented at the same time - they were originally
squeezed into 1 solution, but I split them up for easier reading.

Solution #1: POWER GENERATION: Remove the power generated by totems.
Solution #2: Remove ability to chop Commune trees. Carving an Elder tree into a totem requires the
ability to carve in Crow/Stag. Totems will last 200 months before reverting. They can be forced to
revert with DESECRATE TOTEM, which is a 40s channeled action that requires the DESTROY ability in
Arts. As per Viynain's suggestion, any Druid with the Runes ability in Druidry AND being a power
aide, should be able to affix runes, and tune, all unbonded totems. Bonded totems can retain the
need to have a caretaker. Similarly, any Mage with the Statues ability in Spellcrafter AND being a
power aide, should be able to affix runes, and tune, all statues within the City's limits.
Solution #3: In order to retain the RP of planting nuts and maintaining trees: At Rivius' sugestion,
elder trees should naturally die 1 year after reversion, if it is not carved. This is similar to the
time taken for normal saplings to die on their own as well (which is multiple years from planting to
death). More engaging RP changes for the planting abilities were considered, but to keep the focus
of this report, I only added this suggestion, which prevents elder trees from never dying even if no
one maintained them.

Player Comments:
---[Lerad on 8/7 @ 00:49 writes]:
(For the record, and also so that I can copy and paste when I make the follow up reports as
suggested by Shuyin, my suggested solution for TERRITORY DEFENSE:) Extend the no-foreign terrain
effect that elemental and ethereal territory have to cosmic planes. Turn any special exit that
separates a supermob from the rest of the plane into normal exits. Create an archway somewhere in
the Cosmic plane that is a permanent rift to the Elemental archway. Make transversing through
archways not affected by distortion.
---[Rivius on 8/7 @ 01:50 writes]:
Supported. This reported is needed and will mend the described balance issues with respect to power
generation and organizational morale. As it is now, elder trees are a focus for player 'griefing' in
the truest sense of the word. Being able to chop trees may have been conceived as a form of
potential conflict, but in actuality, trees are often chopped surreptitiously, with immediate escape
before a response can occur, or done during off-peak times. There is no equivalent retribution on
the city end of the game that requires as much player time and effort devoted into it as raising
elders. This creates an unbalanced frustration for the commune organizations who cannot mount an
equal reaction. By simulataneously addressing the balance issue of power generation, many of the
arguments against removing elder-chopping will also be taken away. Supported for all 3 solutions.
---[Enyalida on 8/7 @ 18:02 writes]:
The removal of passive power generation should be sufficient, power for gathering fae should stay,
as it fills the cosmic power generation slot of cities, and involves entering contested areas
anyways. I approve of this report's thrust and the bulk of the solutions, but the details are weird.
Requiring sketches of Avatars is a bizarre mechanic. I also don't understand what you're talking
about regarding bonded totems either - there would be no point to the mechanic if every totem could
be runed anyways.
---[Enyalida on 8/7 @ 18:04 writes]:
I also agree with the sentiment that  once this problem is solved, a more interesting roleplay
element could be slotted in at a later date
---[Lerad on 8/8 @ 01:52 writes]:
I put in the sketches requirement to make it equivalent to statue making. Could turn it into 6
sketches of Aspects instead, if that makes more sense. The rationale can be explained as being, in
order to venerate an Elder Tree to become a totem, you need a direct source of communion with the
Aspects, but since they can't leave the Ethereal, you need sketches of them. If the admin is fine
with not needing the requirement, that's fine by me as well. Bonded totems are more for Crow users,
who have nests on their bonded totems. When bonded, only the bond holder can affix and tune the
totem, which is why Crow bond holders can designate a "caretaker" to do their affixing. The intent
of the detail is to keep things the same as much as possible from the point of view of the warrior
Crow nests holders. I will update the solutions above to change sketches of Avatars to Aspects. Any
more suggestions or things you see out of place, please comment and let me know!
---[Enyalida on 8/8 @ 21:11 writes]:
I understand that it's intended to mirror statue making as far as sketches are concerned, I just
don't think it's necessary and is a jarring detail.I assume that the planting rigamarole will still
be required, and I don't think that 'requiring' sketches is a serious requirement for statues - the
real downside is the time taken to construct an enchant them.
---[Enyalida on 8/8 @ 21:14 writes]:
It's also my understanding that each of the cities has a 'cosmic' method of generating power. The
old cities can directly influence their cosmic entities for varying amounts of power, and the newer
ones supposedly have extra quests or slightly more power accrued from their power quests. With that
in mind, I don't see why the fae quest for power should be removed, especially as it (unlike the
city methods) is non-exclusive to each org. Also, the existing essence dropping beasts of the
Ethereal Forests could simply be made more abundant and reliable instead of adding entirely new
beasts. This has the added benefit of being a lower sunk creative cost, so that if the forests have
a desire to change to a more interesting power mechanic in future, there are fewer barriers.
---[Marcella on 8/8 @ 23:16 writes]:
Sol 1 supported, moves griefing from prime to ethereal
---[Marcella on 8/8 @ 23:25 writes]:
Makes another discrepancy in the fact that daughters/ladies are powerful defenders of ethereal
realms if you wanted to raid for essence, on top of distort and whatever other discretionaries, but
I guess forests would be on top for once???
---[Lerad on 8/9 @ 04:47 writes]:
As per Enyalida's suggestion, I have removed the sketches/commodities requirement. If there is
enough support for it, I will add it back in. Please tell other envoys to comment as much as
possible. Also, @ Marcella, the Ladies/Daughters are strong guards, and that's is precisely why I
kept them as only spawning from gathering fae. If they were changed to respawn mobs, they will need
to be weakened, obviously. If there is support for it, the report for territory defense can have
that change as well. And finally, I'd like to reiterate that all three solutions are meant to be
implemented together. There is no point in removing power generation AND still letting petty
griefers continue to harrass the newer or inexperienced members of the forest orgs, as stated in the
problem statement.
---[Lerad on 8/9 @ 04:47 writes]:
All further suggestions are welcome, please comment as much as possible to improve the solutions
where it is possible, and please spread the word so other envoys will comment as well. Thanks.
---[Enyalida on 8/9 @ 15:15 writes]:
Even 'Strong Guards' aren't particularly good at protecting territories anyone can walk out of
through an archway, especially in Serenwilde where the most achievable raid targets are so close to
that entrance.
---[Marcella on 8/9 @ 20:24 writes]:
The new 'raid targets' would be all over the plane (being essence-dropping mobs.) This would also
raise the amount of essence available in the game regularly which would make supermob raiding even
easier to recover from for organizations with good forest relations because the guards, being spread
over the plane, would be protecting the essence creatures, which would be the targets @ Enyalida.
---[Celina on 8/9 @ 22:07 writes]:
Marcella  is leaving out the fact that forests have archways and are fundamentally easier to raide
under literally every scenario because of that.
---[Enyalida on 8/10 @ 00:13 writes]:
And the fact that forests by definition are forest terrain, meaning that anyone with the relevant
can EASILY skip around relevant Ladies or Daughters using a balanceless command. I DO support a
solution  to the totems/power generation problem that doesn't add more essence to the game, but I
think that this is a good stopgap measure in the mean time. If it ends up being an issue (I don't
think it will be), the amount needed can be upped slightly (30 essence split between all entities?).
---[Elanorwen on 8/12 @ 14:00 writes]:
Supported, for at least the changes that address the discrepancy between totems and statues. Ideally,
 I'd like to see all the solutions implemented though.
---[Lerad on 8/12 @ 14:48 writes]:
Marcella's point about Daughters/Ladies guarding the essence mobs (and therefore giving an advantage
to the communes) is a good point. I'll edit the solutions to remove the proposed essence mobs, and
keep fae-gathering as the power gathering mechanic. Less changes, simpler solutions. More
suggestions welcome.
---[Enyalida on 8/12 @ 14:58 writes]:
Fae power generation is a relative pittance compared to essence based power generation. Honestly,
the security discrepancies that make it harder to lock enemies out of taking your essence mobs makes
up for a perceived protection by Ladies/Daughters. If there is still concern, the number of essence
creatures could be somewhat below that of cities (25 instead of 30+, for instance).
---[Viynain on 8/13 @ 04:26 writes]:
I definitely agree with the premise of this report. My only suggestion, however, is an ammendment to
the 2nd solution. Currently, only the enchanter of a statue is able to affix runes to a statue. This
means that if the enchanter goes dormant or switches organizations, those same statues must be taken
down, resculpted, and re-enchanted by a new caretaker - who is likewise then subject to the problem
of possibly leaving again. The proposed currently avoids this conundrum for commune druids, and I
would like to apply something similar to city statues so that both org-types may benefit. For
statues/totems on org territory, allow any runist aided to <x-ministry, maybe Steward or Power> to
affix runes to their statue/totem rather than just limiting it to the enchanter/caretaker of that
statue/totem. This prevents griefing (since current proposal means enemy druids can rune your own
totem), but also loosens up the requirements for city statues. I've enchanted all of Gaudiguch twice
now - I want to avoid a third time.
---[Jaamil on 8/13 @ 05:59 writes]:
I would strongly suggest solution 2 rather. Though solution 3 is just as good rp-wise for my tastes
and the closeness to the realness of how nature can work imaginatively.
---[Siam on 8/13 @ 13:51 writes]:
If we want to make totems as duplicates of statues to address the harassment going on, I'm
supporting solution 2+1.
---[Lerad on 8/14 @ 10:30 writes]:
Solution 2 updated as per Viynain's suggestion. Please continue to give your comments regarding
Enyalida's and Marcella's comments about power generation via essence dropping mobs. I'm currently
leaning toward the simpler solution (Marcella's) which is to leave fae-gathering as the power
mechanic and not add anymore essence mobs into the Commune territories.
---[Siam on 8/14 @ 14:44 writes]:
If we're removing essence mobs in Ethereal Glom/Seren, then we need to increase the fae mobs we can
influence in Faethorn. There are already new fae types released in-game. I suppose the admins can
work their magical transportation to Faethorn.
---[Marcella on 8/14 @ 15:22 writes]:
Fae-gathering as power mechanic also biases communes towards influencing when everyone else gathers
power through death - might be intended, might not be - but also the fact that you have to influence
in what amounts to a warzone. I'm just concerned about the mobs on OWNED ethereal planes being
guarded by ladies/daughters, and the fact that adding more essence mobs to the game maeks it even
easier to raise avatars/pots/spheres/supernals/DLs when, I believe, the amount needed has still
stayed the same even through gaudi-halli being released and two new planes full of essence being
available to raise them with. It'd be even less of a pain, then. And I like them dying being a pain.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:32 writes]:
There would need to be more fae, as well as each fae being worth more based on sands to be
equivalent. I really don't feel that's the simpler option here, as there already are essence mobs in
the Ethereal territories. The simpler option would be to -remove- the code that makes them variable
and just spawn some more. If the extra essence upsets smob balancing, make each smob require
equivalently more essence to restore. If we set each ethereal area to... 28 essence, divide 56 by
how many smobs you have and make each one cost that much more to raise. DLs would require 11 extra
essence each, Avatars would require ~19 more and so on.
---[Lerad on 8/15 @ 02:26 writes]:
There are 27 fae in faethorn, and each gives 2p when turned in. That gives a total of 54 power per
run. That's more than the essence (37 max) on a single elemental plane. Of course, with full sands,
elemental planes give more than 150 power per run, and are more safe (thanks to discretionaries)
than faethorn. Of course, city orgs can also influence their cosmic mobs for more power. Essence
dropping creatures on ethereal glom/seren also only appear after gathering fae, and in less numbers
that what normally respawns on the elemental planes, but that also means the cities don't get access
to them, even if they manage to kill the Daughters/Ladies guarding the creatures. In summary:
Communes don't get sands boosting for their fae, and take more risk competing for fae, but at the
same time, get to keep their essence-dropping creatures to themselves due to a combination of
Daughter/Ladies + fae mechanics. Therefore taking into account all of the above as well as both
Marcella and Enyalida's arguments, I think these give-and-takes strike a good enough balance, and
that we can stay with the current status quo for active power gathering via fae, for now. If an
imbalance is later seen, I will make a follow up report to directly address active power generation.
---[Enyalida on 8/15 @ 17:43 writes]:
Even assuming a single sand (like the one that spawns in org territory), city essence provides a
greater quantity of power that is more dependable and safe. You're counting 27 fae combined for both
forests compared to 30+ essence per plane here as well. So that's a total of 54 for -one of the
forests- while each city potentially gets 30+ all on their own, assuming that none of the cities are
stealing fae away too. This is also ignoring the cosmic methods of power generation that run
parallel to fae gathering. Fae as they are do not measure up alone to the variety of power
generation options each city has. Make the forest essence creatures respawn normally (like elemental
essence creatures) with a lower total number AND leave in fae power (and potentially fae essence
creature generation) for a more even equivalence. Something like half the number of stable essence
creatures (~15), up to the regular amount (~30) for an org that regularly captures ALL fae, which is
not a given by any means.
---[Tanin on 8/17 @ 21:31 writes]:
It has been suggested that carving be made the same time as enchanting a statue, since growing
elders are no longer going to be an issue. Additionally, if the idea of making elder trees
indestructible doesnt fly, then simply change it that growing an elder requires 1 nut that will grow,
 rather than the whole current hassle, and then chopping an elder would require the same time as
destroying a statue.
---[Enyalida on 8/18 @ 19:38 writes]:
Why would growing elder trees no longer be an issue?