Morph Discussion

GoogleFrog - Klon as far as I can tell people want random slippery slope
Klon - eh
Klon - this is about unit morph?
Klon - dont quite get what you want to say
GoogleFrog - as in morph further rewards you for killing units with your units and surviving
Klon - yeah it does add to the slippery slope a bit, but not much
GoogleFrog - and it is fairly random
Klon - on the other hand, it also gives the player with better survival skills and edge over the economically stronger, if the game develops that way
GoogleFrog - as in you can't plan to raid their base with 5 glaives and then move back a bit and morph one to warrior
GoogleFrog - who knows how the engadgement will go
Klon - well, depends on the base
Klon - but you can plan on other things, like killing a com with some mid sized unit and then morph it
Klon - depends on the situation and involved units if its random or not
Klon - for bigger units the only random part is which unit gets the vet, if there are more than 1
GoogleFrog - I'll say that many things are somewhat randomish and important. Whether a commander dive works for example.
GoogleFrog - But that I don't see the need to add extra randomness which has poor integration
Klon - the random part is really only relevant for small units
Klon - which usualy arent that powerful to morph anyway, some special cases like flea->glaive or glaive->scythe put aside
GoogleFrog - those are most of the cases
GoogleFrog - glaive -> warrior is powerful because warriors are slow
Klon - everything from ravager size upwards is increasingly predictable
GoogleFrog - you could get a warrior behind their base
Klon - well ok
Klon - i never did that
GoogleFrog - I've farmed for Zeus -> Crabe and it is not that predictable
GoogleFrog - you've got to manage who gets the last hit
Klon - well
Klon - zeuses are fairly easy to keep alive
Klon - sure it doesnt always work, but its pretty predictable
GoogleFrog - it can mean the difference of minutes
Klon - ofc you cant pinpoint it, sometimes the wrong unit gets it, but if you got a couple of zeuses and keep them alive, you will get morphs
Klon - yeah it can
Klon - idk, i dont see a problem with that amount of random really
GoogleFrog - so I we've got this extra mirco game where selectively forcing your units to not fire is required to implement your large scale plan of morphing to something
Klon - but thats not realistic, does anyone do that?
GoogleFrog - yes
Klon - besides this is still only applicable for small to mid units, large units dont need that
GoogleFrog - I've tried on occasion
GoogleFrog - now we've hit on the Owling argument
Klon - well ok, but its not really worth it imo
Klon - its costly in terms of micro and risk
GoogleFrog - that the morph-proponents want a system so weak that people can safely ignore it exists if they want to
Klon - compared with the tradeoff you get for morphing small units
GoogleFrog - a so-called "optional feature"
Klon - i dont see why it should be owled either
GoogleFrog - if morph is optional then it has been owled
Klon - its optional right now because morph doesnt offer anything you cant get otherwise
GoogleFrog - yes it does
GoogleFrog - it offers you a unit at a wider range of locations without paying for the factory or the BP
GoogleFrog - If I want 1 Crabe then the cheapest way to do it is morph a Zeus
Klon - yeah, ok. but its not mandatory, and there are no units that you can only get from morph
GoogleFrog - if I want 1 Warrior behind their base the fastest way to do it is morph Glaive
Klon - right
GoogleFrog - that isn't what mandatory means
Klon - mandatory means necessary?
GoogleFrog - it's not necessary to use every unit type all the time though
GoogleFrog - if a morph-only unit was actually really really bad to have then the morph to it isn't necessary either
Klon - well no, but using morph at all isnt something that gives you a huge edge, its something you can easily forgo entirely
GoogleFrog - idk how you can say that
GoogleFrog - what about warrior in the back of their base?
Klon - that was my point, there is no meta for morphing things
GoogleFrog - zeus -> crabe to counter all those rockos which are attacking my zeus?
GoogleFrog - there is no meta for a lot of stuff
Klon - a com can kill a warrior 1v1, dies to llt+defender, while annoying a warrior in the back of the base can be dealt with
GoogleFrog - lots of people have to do it a realize it can be done to make up a meta
Klon - well hammers do counter a crabe, and if he morphs a crabe, he needs time and money
Klon - i just dont see it as such a huge advantage, even the fabled crabe morph
Klon - just keeping the zeus and making more often enough is better
GoogleFrog - no it's not
GoogleFrog - and I am not saying that morph was always a good thing to do
GoogleFrog - if your new unit would get countered like that easily then don't do it
GoogleFrog - but there are situations (common ones) where it would not get countered easily and then it is good
Klon - yeah but so could any other suprising unit or combo
GoogleFrog - but as long as you realise you are designing for slippery slope and keep it in mind then some morph could be good to implement
GoogleFrog - what?
GoogleFrog - other surprising units or combos are either more expensive or impossible
GoogleFrog - you can't move a warrior across the map that quickly
GoogleFrog - crabe is more expensive to build from factory, 600 more metal and energy and about 2k more BP required
Klon - well yeah, it wasnt specific to any particular morph, its just that getting suprised with something thats impossible to counter is part of the game
GoogleFrog - except there are limits on what you can be surprised with
GoogleFrog - you've got an idea of your opponents economy
GoogleFrog - they can't dante drop you 5 minutes in
Klon - well morph is pretty limited too, even more so, is just a bit of game knowledge thats needed, and people might not exspect it as readily as say a plane switch or something
GoogleFrog - yea I agree there
GoogleFrog - although another thing is that people can play factories such as hovercraft and not feel the lack of morphs
Klon - there is scalpel-pene which was pretty strong
GoogleFrog - oh that, perhaps
GoogleFrog - I only did that when factories were still tierd
Klon - the lack is felt with the things that cant morph anymore tho, because some things had been part of my regular play
GoogleFrog - which?
GoogleFrog - which things?
Klon - think it was a reaper that i wanted to morph to a goli today
Klon - dante - bantha was also something i would do sometimes
GoogleFrog - I don't think Reaper needs that power
GoogleFrog - the ability to absorb the exess metal you are reclaiming
GoogleFrog - but I can see it being ok on Ravager
GoogleFrog - same for Warrior -> Zeus
Klon -  it synergizes well with the overall idea of a reaper, because you generally keep them alive, so morphing them to the bigger tank is natural
GoogleFrog - should it be fairly even between factories?
GoogleFrog - Dagger -> Mace would just be brutal
Klon - what do you mean? that all factories have about the same amount of morphs, with similar sizes and powers?
GoogleFrog - Mace can already just barge into territory
GoogleFrog - yes
Klon - yeah dagger mace would be awesome
GoogleFrog - it would win games
Klon - i would think that all facs should have most of their units morph
GoogleFrog - people already like to barge into territory with lone maces
GoogleFrog - but they are speed limited
GoogleFrog - dagger -> Mace would be massive slippery slope
Klon - yeah that would really be a nasty one :D
Klon - but then theres the risk that the enemy catches it while it morphs
GoogleFrog - is there?
Klon - sure
GoogleFrog - what if you find a puddle?
GoogleFrog - what if you defend it with your other few daggers?
Klon - well if you find a puddle, i guess it might be safe
GoogleFrog - daggers beat many raiders
GoogleFrog - you effectively gain the ability to force them to attack your dagger ball
Klon - if you have a number of daggers, enemy probably got some stuff too and mace morph isnt that strong anymore
Klon - he wont be alone in his base with just an llt
GoogleFrog - if you have daggers enemy may only have equal cost in dagger
Klon - raiders can kill mace too if necessary
GoogleFrog - and that doesn't beat daggers
Klon - needs like 8 glaives, dont know about daggers
GoogleFrog - certain raiders can kill a lone mace for cost
GoogleFrog - well morph could take a lot longer
Klon - a lot would be too much
GoogleFrog - old morph could boost out units if you had the storage
Klon - could be based on some formula tho, right now its tiered
Klon - yeah its quite a lot of bp for some units, especially striders get a ton, but you can rarely supply the metal
GoogleFrog - it was definately able to drain your entire economy
Klon - yup
GoogleFrog - that makes ordinary BP worse you know
GoogleFrog - you can spend less metal on cons or send more cons to reclaim
GoogleFrog - so being able to morph means you can spend less on your economy
Klon - yeah but you can only use the bp for one thing
GoogleFrog - perhaps it is the right thing
GoogleFrog - perhaps the bonus is sufficient
Klon - ?
GoogleFrog - well not having exactly the right unit type is ok if you can spend more on it
Klon - spending is seldomly an issue tho
Klon - well it sometimes is, when you get a lot of reclaim, in which case morph is strong
GoogleFrog - then maybe you have too many constructors and should have built units instead?
Klon - but otherwise you mostly dont have too little bp, but too little metal
Klon - idk, i guess most people have more bp than they can spend anyway, so they can reclaim when needed
Klon - or build things when the reclaim comes in
GoogleFrog - but if they plan on the a morph and know the game really well so they think they will get it then they should make less constructors
GoogleFrog - that is a general problem with morph I have
GoogleFrog - that now when nobody really knows what to do it is seen as an ok random feature
Klon - if it works out that way which is a bit of a gamble
GoogleFrog - but if you plan with it you probably get all this stupid stuff like farming
GoogleFrog - raiding isn't really a gamble
GoogleFrog - you'd do it anyway
GoogleFrog - you might just do it in such a way (with high mircomangement) such that you get a morph out of it
Klon - idk, if the hypothetical meta gamer tries to figure out if he should rather farm for xp and morph things or just steamroll the enemy, i think option number 2 wins
GoogleFrog - I can invisage a 1v1 meta that requires you to be able to last hit with units to get the morphs
GoogleFrog - imagine Daggers doing it
Klon - that would suck, i agree, but im not sure it could ever develop to that point
Klon - because after all you can just build a mace
GoogleFrog - a mace that takes a minute to put preassure on your opponent's base
Klon - and trying to last hit stuff will invariably lead to failure at times, and thus metal cost
GoogleFrog - and what we have at the moment is just approximating the last-hit requirement meta
Klon - maybe the last hit thing is op
Klon - its a bit silly anyway if you think about it :D
GoogleFrog - this "invariably lead to failures" is the type of thing that leads you to a starcraft clickfest
Klon - well its not only the risk but also added time cost
Klon - not only micro but actual game time rearranging units and so on
GoogleFrog - time cost sounds like it can be minimised
GoogleFrog - hold fire and settarget?
Klon - hmm
GoogleFrog - run 4 daggers by a mex and organise them such that the same one always gets the last hit?
Klon - idk, it might be possible
GoogleFrog - that would be no time cost as they are all in range for a fair period of time
GoogleFrog - or say you are attacking a normal expansion
Klon - as i said, maybe the xp formula should consider the damage done primarily
Klon - last hit could be a bonus
GoogleFrog - have your swarm of glaives kill the LLT then single one out and have it kill the mexes. That is a time cost but not major
GoogleFrog - that is with a non-last hit system
Klon - yeah i might do that, but it doesnt require terrible clickfest micro
GoogleFrog - it is still a bunch of attention spent
Klon - yup
GoogleFrog - I think the formula is hardcoded into the engine
GoogleFrog - you get some XP for damage and the same XP for killing
Klon - hm
Klon - still, i think thats ok, if somebody wants to do that he can
GoogleFrog - I can imagine a gadget which removes the last hit bonus by giving negative XP when a unit kills another unit
GoogleFrog - to counteract the bonus
GoogleFrog - so how do you readd morph with this in mind?
GoogleFrog - do you accept that a required skill for some level of play will be the ability to last-hit or at least give most of the damage dealt to a certain unit?
Klon - im not sure this is what will happen because i dont consider morph to be that powerful overall
Klon - i can imagine that it may give people a major edge at times where this series of events plays out as planned
GoogleFrog - the thing is the tradeoffs are low
Klon - but then there are a number of things that can go wrong, most of which arent in the players control
GoogleFrog - you want to kill things and have your units survive
Klon - well tradeoff is time, risk and attention
GoogleFrog - so people would only need to modify their behaviour slightly and input a lot more micro to do the same overall goal while attempting to get units with the required XP
GoogleFrog - attention is not so much a risk as a skill level limiter
Klon - plus the question if its worth it, because you just get some unit in a potentially neat place
Klon - i would say this would require some major testing to find out if there is any real advantage to be gleaned from this, but seeing that morph is around since ever, if it was that powerful, that may have already happened
GoogleFrog - there is obviously an advantage
GoogleFrog - as in, being able to morph gives you more options so that is an advantage
GoogleFrog - the advantage of one of these early game raider morphs would be the time spent moving an expensive unit across the map and the delayed constructor
GoogleFrog - as in early game you need a constructor to assist your factory at some point, morph lets you delay this and focus on expanding
Klon - huh
Klon - how?
GoogleFrog - because with morph you can spend more on units without tieing up a constructor assisting your factory
Klon - anyway my point before was that if the advantage was that big, it probably would have found its way into the meta already, it probably isnt that great, which also means that it could be balanced by small steps later on if it would develop to a problem
GoogleFrog - it did
GoogleFrog - before Redback Godde would farm xp on fleas to get glaives and warriors
Klon - ok
Klon - well but thats more of a problem with the spider fac design :D
GoogleFrog - it can work around it
GoogleFrog - the factory can work in spite of the raider weakness
Klon - ok
GoogleFrog - that is the point of having distinct factories
GoogleFrog - Zeus -> Crabe seems to be a good idea most of the time
GoogleFrog - it's an accepted thing
GoogleFrog - in the meta
GoogleFrog - hover and amph lack morphs
GoogleFrog - there are no air morphs
Klon - hm
GoogleFrog - shieldbot has fairly sparse morphs
GoogleFrog - veh has a progression which is used
GoogleFrog - a lone koda from a scorcher is quite powerful due to their different approaches to raiding
Klon - well ok. the thing is, people arent really microing for last hit, or not much, which leads me to believe that the advantage of doing do wouldnt be so great
GoogleFrog - people aren't skilled enough
Klon - not so great as to make it mandatory in competetive games
Klon - could be
GoogleFrog - they are definately not as skilled as they could be
GoogleFrog - I don't think you can say that it can be balanced around
GoogleFrog - as in the core of the XP morph system is the fact that units get XP and then morph for som bonus
Klon - not some bonus but into another unit
GoogleFrog - as in some bonus to the player
GoogleFrog - potentially
Klon - potentially
GoogleFrog - they get a cheaper unit in a different location
Klon - unless he morphed into something stupid
GoogleFrog - as in when something has a broken core mechanic and you try to balance it what you are really doing is owling it
Klon - well morph could be based on something else but xp, tho it seems the most logical thing aside from no requirement at all
GoogleFrog - well apart from XP what else is there?
Klon - tax, reclaim
GoogleFrog - Also most people seem to require XP
GoogleFrog - as in they want the coolness of playing pokemons with their units
Klon - just a 10% on unit cost for free morphs for example, lets you morph stuff always anywhere, but costs more than facs (turns whole game around tho :) )
GoogleFrog - if you're trying to make people happy then implementing a replacement which doesn't depend on XP would not work, I think
Klon - well i wouldnt want to change anything, i dont think of it based on xp as beeing broken
GoogleFrog - 10% of what?
GoogleFrog - you couldn't make Glaive -> warrior cost 800 metal
GoogleFrog - I think that would be an owling
Klon - 10% of the target units cost as an example
Klon - in addition to the difference, which is used now
GoogleFrog - so glaive -> warrior cost 220-65 + 22?
Klon - basically
Klon - otherwise, it could use regular buildpower as a last resort, but that would be massive nerf
GoogleFrog - would it be a nerf to the RPG aspect though?
GoogleFrog - if it required BP you could still have your strider morphs
GoogleFrog - but you wouldn't be able to do it behind enemy lines
Klon - well strider morph behind enemy lines is not that common :)
Klon - but yeah
Klon - kinda defeats the point of morph a bit unless there are more options in that case, so there is an actual reason to do it if you have to pay for everything in the first place
GoogleFrog - as in you could still have morphs but not the offensive kind
GoogleFrog - you still get a unit away from a factory
GoogleFrog - what is the point of morph?
Klon - there is not one point i guess
GoogleFrog - the point seems to be for cool RPG mechanics
Klon - i guess so
GoogleFrog - the fact that your economy gets a boost because you get free BP is just a side effect of the implementation
Klon - but if its about getting rid of those you need to take a long, hard look at com morphes
Klon - well true, but having your unit sit around as a nanoframe waiting to get upgraded is a bit weak with the current options
GoogleFrog - I don't see anyone arguing for morph from the point of view that they like the ability to spend less on normal BP
Klon - but the fact that the unit doesnt require any additonal input to do its thing is certainly important
GoogleFrog - that is weird, is it really?
Klon - i would say so? i mean the unit undergoes a metamorphosis, so it just sits there in its cocoon and at some point its done
GoogleFrog - what if constructors had an "upgrade" command that they could use on units
GoogleFrog - when started it becomes immobile and waits for the upgrade to finish
GoogleFrog - this doesn't give the cocoon impression
Klon - then it would be like building a unit at the front line, a bit like athena would do, and reclaiming some other unit you have, except you dont have to actually reclaim it
GoogleFrog - reclaim is only 50% though
Klon - yeah
GoogleFrog - but the point is that the morph maintains the unit and rewards it for doing stuff well
Klon - right
GoogleFrog - as in the requirements for morph seems to be in psychology more than anything else
Klon - its fun
GoogleFrog - it was accidentally implemented as one of those addictive reward things on facebook games
GoogleFrog - use unit well -> click buttons -> reward
GoogleFrog - I think it would be cool to have something like the Glaive -> Warrior morph
GoogleFrog - as in a unit designed as something which runs around rapidly in a light version but can beef up to be a slow powerful unit
GoogleFrog - that sounds like an interesting mechanic for a raider to have
Klon - sounds like starcraft
GoogleFrog - but if you base it on XP it gets all these farming and micromanagment problems eventually
GoogleFrog - baneling, lurker?
Klon - idk i didnt play it much tbh
Klon - i think the farming isnt not so much an issue because the bonus isnt big enough, and its situational on top of it
Klon - you could incorporate it into a strategy to eventually morph, maybe you could then try to farm for it, but its not like you could just level up units that automatically get better doing so
GoogleFrog - the thing is that as people get better the meta would get closer to a game where the farming is a problem
Klon - well we are talking from the perspective that its already taken out, otherwise i would have said you can take it out when it becomes a problem
GoogleFrog - that seems like a poor thing to do
GoogleFrog - I really don't like that idea
Klon - it would also be a very complicated process of finding out what to morph, when to morph, i am unsure there would ever develop a definite meta over morph
GoogleFrog - that you leave in things which are going to be broken because they are not now
GoogleFrog - it really doesn't sounds that complicated to me
Klon - but youre based the assesment that its broken on the assumption that eventually a meta would develop that would be bag
Klon - bad even
Klon - its not obviously broken when such a meta doesnt exist yet, and you dont know if it really is worth farming for
Klon - maybe it just plain isnt
GoogleFrog - I already said. Morph is not some great tradeoff
GoogleFrog - it rewards you for doing well independantly of whether you aim for it
GoogleFrog - but you could game it to get the rewards faster
GoogleFrog - that gaming is farming
GoogleFrog - and it would mostly be an attention based thing
Klon - also greatly impacted by unit choice
Klon - and slows you down a good deal. even randy can only do so many things at a time
Klon - i dont know if its worth it, randy for one could probably not very often morph units because he would just bludgeon people to death and rarely even make cost
GoogleFrog - I don't think it is infeasible for people to manage
GoogleFrog - remember if you get better at a game you are also able to do actions efficiently
GoogleFrog - exactly
GoogleFrog - if there is only one person as good as rAndy then they don't need to get these small advantages
Klon - k maybe
GoogleFrog - but if you consider many people that good then whether you farm a morph would be the game changer
GoogleFrog - as in a warrior near your base is a pretty big threat and would take resources to counter
Klon - could be
Klon - but then why is it a problem? because it only impacts people that are that good
Klon - hypothetically speaking, we dont even know if it would be worth it, even among even matched opponents
GoogleFrog - I think it would be that worth it
Klon - they most likely still have better things to do than to farm xp
GoogleFrog - and if it only impact people who are that good it matters for scalability
GoogleFrog - but there is also the fact that there is a cost for keeping morph in
GoogleFrog - https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/issues/165
GoogleFrog - and that morph on a unit adds 2 buttons to the UI (the morph button and morph priority)
Klon - the latter two dont seem so terrible to me
Klon - idk about the bugs, second one seems to apply to comms as well, both look pretty grim, but surely there is some way to fix it?
GoogleFrog - sure but someone has to do it
GoogleFrog - immunity is not a problem for commmorphs because they have a fix already
GoogleFrog - comms are not stunned during morph but other units are. this stun is simply an application of a large amount of emp which is removed at the end
GoogleFrog - the resource generating bug was fixed
Klon - hm
GoogleFrog - also I would want improved UI
GoogleFrog - a unit which is able to morph might have it's rank icon flash
Klon - sure why not
GoogleFrog - at least for several seconds after it gains the rank
GoogleFrog - and it needs to be visible to enemies
GoogleFrog - and perhaps the last hit bonus should be removed as well
Klon - you could just make ranks visible on all known units
Klon - if thats not too complicated, as in let a xp counter run for each team for all enemy units
GoogleFrog - and then you have the issue of explaining this seperate economy system to new players
GoogleFrog - the 1:1:1 system has an exception with morph
Klon - 1:1:1?
Klon - understood
Klon - where is the exception?
GoogleFrog - well there is no BP spent
GoogleFrog - the morph speed is not regulateable or balanceable in the usual way
Klon - its pretty straightforward tho, dont remember having any trouble figuring it out
Klon - you could also, as a balance measure, have it build with a very low base bp and make it assistable
GoogleFrog - which is more work
Klon - so morphing in enemy bases is less powerful
Klon - yeah
GoogleFrog - but a balance lever for the base morph is morph time
GoogleFrog - anyway so say you have the bugs fixed, rank flash + enemy rank and lasthit removal
GoogleFrog - and you're going to implement morphs with the idea that high level play may involve some strats where you raid with the intention of morphing
GoogleFrog - but deem that to be an ok thing
GoogleFrog - then what do you implement as morphs?
GoogleFrog - Glaive -> Warrior -> Zeus? I like the first one but Warrior -> Zeus sounds like your unit mix will eventually turn into pure zeus
Klon - well most of those that exist are ok, otherwise we had discussed some guidelines like upgrade along role, same fac, etc
GoogleFrog - maybe that is ok, it would mean you are not stuck with warriors
GoogleFrog - Ravager -> Reaper -> Golly?
Klon - ye
Klon - sure that one is classic, dont see a reason why not
GoogleFrog - what about dart and flea?
GoogleFrog - and dirtbag
Klon - flea -> infi
GoogleFrog - such cheap units that killing almost anything is the 3x cost requirement
Klon - flea -> roach would also be good fun
GoogleFrog - but you have to kill something left alone by itself
GoogleFrog - the flea would really be the farming factory
Klon - well, how can you farm with fleas other than you already do? you try to kill anything without dying, and youre good to go
GoogleFrog - the way to play against spiders would be the never let fleas kill anything
GoogleFrog - so lone mexes, cons, power generators
GoogleFrog - but is the current farming with fleas a good mechanic?
Klon - that shouldnt happen too often anyway
GoogleFrog - the current xp limit is set to 3x cost
GoogleFrog - so a flea would need to kill 2 mexes
GoogleFrog - or 1 constructor
Klon - thats more of a question about if flea is a well designed unit i think
GoogleFrog - but itself
GoogleFrog - *by
GoogleFrog - currently it scouts, kills lone things like arty and prevents naked expansion
Klon - it also gets xp for shooting stuff, its pretty quick at gaining xp from anything really
GoogleFrog - morph just punishes naked expansion more
Klon - true
Klon - well in this case
GoogleFrog - and the cost difference is so massive
GoogleFrog - from flea to almost anything
GoogleFrog - I am unhappy with flea -> Glaive
GoogleFrog - imo factories should at least retain their iconic raiders
GoogleFrog - flea to infiltrator is actually sounding good
Klon - flea infi seems fine from a style and role point of view, theyre both spies in essence
GoogleFrog - then what else?
GoogleFrog - ahh
GoogleFrog - that is another thing about morph
GoogleFrog - the way of assigning xp is so silly
GoogleFrog - eg, wolverine cannot gain XP
GoogleFrog - it doesn't actually do damage
Klon - yeah
GoogleFrog - Venom could gain XP really really slowly
Klon - but racks could gain xp now right`?
GoogleFrog - Raketerr - nope
Klon - venom gets from ae damage?
GoogleFrog - yes
GoogleFrog - 20 or so damage
GoogleFrog - but if you did gain XP from other types of damage venom would get so much
GoogleFrog - just keep the unit stationary and farm it
Klon - maybe just a fraction of emp damages? would make the most sense
GoogleFrog - so the Venom -> Redback morph may as well never be added
GoogleFrog - but a fraction of EMP damage would still let you keep the unit around forever for farming
GoogleFrog - oh hey
GoogleFrog - you know how you can repair your opponents units?
Klon - but you want to do that anyway dont you? i mean there is no reason to constantly emp something if you can, even if its a solar
Klon - nope
GoogleFrog - well you can
Klon - to not*
GoogleFrog - exactly
GoogleFrog - you want to constatly emp stuff already
Klon - but this is what people do anyway
GoogleFrog - farming tonnes of xp from doing so would be an added bonus
Klon - right
GoogleFrog - yes
Klon - doesnt need to be tons, but yeah
Klon - if it doesnt work for racks i guess it wouldnt be so much of a problem
Klon - venoms need to expose themselves to do so
GoogleFrog - racketeer would get XP constantly
Klon - yeah racks would xp a lot
Klon - and then morph to firewalkers for example
GoogleFrog - and stuff with high DPS gets a lot of XP
Klon - but then, maybe keep the racks, theyre so good
GoogleFrog - as in felon probably gets a lot
GoogleFrog - stuff like Halberd doesn't get much
Klon - yeah
GoogleFrog - because halberd is for tanking
GoogleFrog - it's just that XP rewards units for dealing damage not taking it
Klon - could keep that in mind and hand out special morphes for things that have a hard time getting xp
GoogleFrog - so you've got a lopsided easyness to morph
Klon - not every single unit has to be able to morph i guess
GoogleFrog - the unusual factories are a bit sparse for morphs that make sense
Klon - some units just are more supplementary than others
GoogleFrog - does anything morph to Crabe? Hermit or Recluse are the things that would make sense
GoogleFrog - that is still 1k metal though
GoogleFrog - Hermit -> Recluse -> Crabe?
GoogleFrog - that really does jump around the roles
Klon - hermit -> jack
GoogleFrog - that doesn't make much sense
Klon - :P
Klon - hermit is too small
GoogleFrog - the thing is you could monospam some unit type and then get the support units you need via morph
Klon - i mean it wouldnt be so tragic to remove some of the less popular morphes so in the end each factory has a select few options
GoogleFrog - 1 or 2 per factory?
Klon - yeah that would be possible, but that would need more inter role morphs than we had
Klon - nah more like 3 to 4 imo
GoogleFrog - that is a morph for half the units
Klon - yeah
GoogleFrog - you could predictably replace some constructor BP with morph
Klon - morph doesnt actually build anything
Klon - doesnt reclaim or repair either
GoogleFrog - yes it does
Klon - well kinda, but it needs an existing unit
GoogleFrog - you spend money on armies
Klon - ok
GoogleFrog - spending some of that army money can go to increasing the expense of a single thing
GoogleFrog - it can be equivelent
Klon - but taking bp off cons would somewhat enforce people to use morph just to make up for it
GoogleFrog - I mean they would be able to get away with making less constructors
Klon - not really, they still need them to reclaim
Klon - that would only work if morph was much better than it is
Klon - so people could reliably use it in a meaningful way, right now you cant always morph to something sensible
GoogleFrog - being better can simply be having more options
Klon - hm
GoogleFrog - but I guess the XP requirement can modulate the rarity
GoogleFrog - except when people then intentionally farm it
GoogleFrog - because if it were balanced for that it would be very rare of the "optional" level players
Klon - i wouldnt fiddle with the cons just because morph gives some bp
GoogleFrog - that is not what I said
GoogleFrog - wait
GoogleFrog - ambiguity
GoogleFrog - I would not fiddle with the cons attributes because of a morph system
GoogleFrog - but I can imagine players fiddling with their con production because they can morph for the BP
GoogleFrog - that is why the nanoframe system sounds good
Klon - its too situational to plan for it
Klon - if you fail, youre in double trouble because you didnt make enough cons
GoogleFrog - except when you hone your composition and tactics such that it isn't situational
Klon - its still a gamble
GoogleFrog - sure, many things are
Klon - so maybe they would yeah, but then its not a problem is it
GoogleFrog - so I'd want a list before I am convinced that it is worthwhile coding or fixing anything
Klon - what kind of list
GoogleFrog - because the normal way of coming up with morphs leads to weird stuff or cloakybot lopsidedness
GoogleFrog - Recluse -> Crabe sounds good to me
GoogleFrog - they sort of beat the same things (skirmishers)
Klon - you mean a complete list of all morph options there shall be? i would do such a thing
GoogleFrog - with good reasons
Klon - good reasons for what?
GoogleFrog - each of the morphs
Klon - sounds feasible
GoogleFrog - also morph is a system which softens your bad descisions
GoogleFrog - as in if you make a poor mix then a morph can fix it
GoogleFrog - you may be beaten by rockos because you made too many Hermits
GoogleFrog - but if you can morph on of them you are ok
Klon - and you dont want this to happen a lot
GoogleFrog - while recluse may take too long to reach the front
GoogleFrog - Glaive -> Warrior   * Potential for raiding them Warrior morph. Could be an interesting tactic but has farming problems. Increases Warrior use.
GoogleFrog - Warrior -> Zeus     * Increases Warrior use because it allows for a transition to Zeus. Perhaps Warrior should be
GoogleFrog - Ravager -> Reaper   * Spearheading? Similar role.
GoogleFrog - Reaper -> Goliath   * Further spearheading. Beats other Reaper so could turn the tide of a Reaper war.
GoogleFrog - Recluse -> Crabe    * Both have range and beat similar thing (skirmishers). Crabe does a lot more though.
Klon - hmhm
GoogleFrog - I'm not so sure about complementary morphs
GoogleFrog - as in Zeus -> Crabe was a perfect complementary morph because Crabe deals with those ligh skirmishers that outrange Zeus
GoogleFrog - but ones that walk a bit around are nicer
GoogleFrog - Warrior -> Zeus are still beaten by skirmishers
GoogleFrog - also what of the untouched air?
Klon - idk, does morph properly with fliers?
GoogleFrog - there are only two fighters and by the cost ordering the only morph is Swift -> Hawk
GoogleFrog - idk
GoogleFrog - if you morph mid air they probably crash
GoogleFrog - not sure
GoogleFrog - maybe they float there
Klon - avenger to vamp and vulture seems reasonble, bombers could morph into one another maybe
Klon - phoenix-stiletto seems fitting
GoogleFrog - double morphs seems like too much
GoogleFrog - as in one thing morphing to two things
GoogleFrog - say we have that glaive morph strategy with Scythe and Warrior
Klon - why not? avenger is both fighter and scout
Klon - plus is the cheapest unit in the fac, seems logical it has the most options
GoogleFrog - you get raided, see that they gained enough XP and they retreat
GoogleFrog - now you have to prepare for Scythe (make glaive) or Warrior (make some turrets or rocko)
Klon - hm
GoogleFrog - whereas if you know what they could do (say, only warrior) then it is easier to prepare
GoogleFrog - and it reduces UI complexity
GoogleFrog - on the other hand scouting the morph would then be important
GoogleFrog - but also Scythe is fairly fast
Klon - said situation wouldnt be a problem for the avenger morph tho, vulture is hardly a threat to prepare for :)
GoogleFrog - and it seems a bit uneven when some units have no morphs
GoogleFrog - I'd not have any morphs to vulture
GoogleFrog - it is a support thing
Klon - otherwise, ye i get the point, never seemed much of a problem, in that case taking out the warrior morph might be better tho since scythe is still a raider
GoogleFrog - warrior sounds less annoying though
GoogleFrog - and more counter-y
Klon - ofc one could also consider to give each factory 2 morphs on their raider
GoogleFrog - although scythe is fairly fast by itself
GoogleFrog - so then when you get raided in this morph-raid strategy you also have to scout for which morph they are doing?
GoogleFrog - which you should do given you have radar
GoogleFrog - and if they go out of radar range the heavy takes longer to reach you
GoogleFrog - so what of bandit, it has few things which make sense
Klon - well i dont know if you really have to scout for it, since most people probably prefer keeping their raiders
GoogleFrog - bandit -> Thug would be fairly nifty utility because you can hide under the shield
Klon - but yeah i guess you would somehow have to deal with the different possibilities
Klon - ye
GoogleFrog - there are often two slightly more expensive and complementary units for raiders to morph to
GoogleFrog - ravager, leveler. Warrior rocko, thug outlaw
GoogleFrog - but that would be putting a lot on the mechanic
GoogleFrog - I think it is better to leave them with one
Klon - it happens too rarely to really be a problem for raiders
Klon - imo
GoogleFrog - raiders are high DPS and clash with things of similar weight early in the game
GoogleFrog - and they get in and kill defenceless mexes and windgens
Klon - i morphed a bunch of glaives to glaive or warrior sometimes, but cant say if it was worth it
GoogleFrog - and it seems like the difference in situation is a bit too extreme
Klon - yeah but theyre good at what they do already, unless you really need a riot you might just keep em
GoogleFrog - as in if there is no morph availible to you then your opponent can relax
GoogleFrog - but if you can morph they need to find out and prepare for any of two units which could come at them
GoogleFrog - if the morph is only one unit type then at least they know what to expect, if anything
GoogleFrog - a riot with your raiders is really good
GoogleFrog - it gives you a retreat zone
GoogleFrog - you can force conflicts with it instead of being stuck in standoff
Klon - but enemy has a fac that can build some 8 kinds of units, which may come too - depending on unit it may take slightly more than 20 seconds for them to show
GoogleFrog - it takes a long time for slow units to reach you
GoogleFrog - even across something like red comet
Klon - bit longer, guess at most a minute or so?
GoogleFrog - a minute is a lot
Klon - sure but the morph takes some time too, 20 for the small ones i think
GoogleFrog - that is probably going to be 600 extra metal to defend with? more time to scout
Klon - so its an advantage that you have to prepare for something, but its not like something couldnt just come anyway
GoogleFrog - it also takes up a lot of space on the UI
Klon - :D
GoogleFrog - hey that is important
Klon - why?
GoogleFrog - the UI has to be understandable and usable
Klon - its just 1 or 2 greyed out buttons
GoogleFrog - what if you select 5 unit types?
Klon - if you dont know what it does and its greyed out, you move on to something else
GoogleFrog - it overflows
Klon - hm
Klon - never noticed that happening
Klon - at most its like 4
Klon - hm ok i just checked in game, it actually seemes to overflow even without morph buttons when you select a ton of units
Klon - but thats not so much a problem of the morph buttons but the ui itself and the habit of displaying all options for all units no?
GoogleFrog - so why increase the problem?
Klon - is it a problem? does anyone want to select all his units and then do stuff in the menu?
Klon - well maybe that does happen
GoogleFrog - if you select a few units it could overflow if they all have a bunch of morphs
Klon - probably happens a lot with builders and other types of units
Klon - idk, scale buttons down? make some options disappear when many units are selected?
GoogleFrog - that seems very disruptive
Klon - gonna have to sleep now, its really late here :) so gnite
GoogleFrog - ok