cjdns sucks as a darknet, use i2p

Protip: nothing is 100% anonymous, you can throw away your anonymity is an instant


17:30 <+psi> step 1) please explain i2p
17:30 <+dg> you've gone from saying i2p sux in comparison to acting like cjdns is stupid
17:30 <@KillYourTV> so is it like onioncat/garlicat?
17:30 <+psi> step 2) please explain this other network
17:30 <+psi> step 3) compare and contrast
17:30 <+psi> you have the floor
17:30 <+dg> this should be good.
17:30 <+psi> go
17:31  * Meeh is excited to see what the answer is
17:31 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> i2p is a magical rainbow bridge to the future, over which a TCP-like socket can pass, with provisions to make sure it's super-secret, guyse.
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17:31 <+psi> wrong
17:31 <+dg> correct
17:31 <+dg> no
17:31 <+dg> it's correct
17:32 <+psi> i2p i more than just tcp
17:32 < efkt> jercos: Oh. I see, you're not actually serious.
17:32 <+psi> actually read what i2p is first
17:32 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns is a complete well-defined network stack designed around the OSI model's vision of a network from physical up, designed to carry IP, which
is
                commonly used with actual TCP and UDP.
17:32 <+psi> read about the garlic routing and the tunnels etc
17:33 <+psi> you do not have a proper undestanding of i2p
17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I said provisions didn't I?
17:33 <+psi> if you want i can do a full indepted explainaiont
17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> If I'm describing Tor, I'm not gonna go into detail about how Onion routing works.
17:33 <+psi> fuck that vodka is getting to me
17:33 <+psi> i2p does not use anything from tor
17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Go for it.
17:33 <+psi> ok
17:34 <+psi> i2p is a message oriented anoynmous mixnet on the lowest layer
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17:34 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> mixnet?
17:34 <+psi> the main idea is that even when inside the network you cannot tell where messages are originally from or eventually going to, only the next hope
17:34 <+psi> yes
17:34 <+psi> a mixnet
17:35 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> That's a word I've seen, but wasn't really explained to my satisfaction.
17:35 <+psi> hold on just got started
< harlock> hop
17:35 < harlock> we hope to reach the next hop :P
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17:35 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Right. Feel free to ignore any questions I lay down until the end, I know you'll have read them, and I'll try to pipe down until you're done.
17:36 <+psi> with i2p the main conjecture is that i2p destinations can never be corrilated to an ip address
17:36 <+psi> if that is possible then i2p is broke
17:37 <+psi> so
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17:37 <+psi> alice wants to talk to bobo
17:37 <+psi> bob*
17:37 <+psi> alice has bob's destination
17:37 <+psi> alice first builds what is called a tunnel
17:37 <+psi>  a tunnel is simply put a path that a message takes
17:37 <+psi> it can have 0 to N hops
17:38 <+psi> current max N is 3
17:38 <+psi> (at this point)
17:38 <+psi> bob has a tunnel already built waiting to be connected to
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17:38 <+psi> he may have 2 hops or 0 hops alice does not know
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17:39 <+psi> alice builds a N hop tunnel and connects it to bob's
17:39 <+psi> this is 1 /2 of the transaction
17:39 <+psi> tunnels are unidirectional
17:39 <+psi> you can only send or recieve
17:39 <+psi> because of that
17:39 <+psi> in order for bob to get back to alice you need to verify that alice is  really alice
17:40 <+psi> once that verification is done then bob connects back with the same processs to alice
17:40 <+psi> and that is 1 connection on i2p
17:40 <+psi> no tcp syn yet
17:41 <+psi> you can deny replying back with a tunnel based on rulesets, you can have a big whitelist of destinations that are allowed to be coonnected back to
17:41 <+psi> hence the term "invisble" internet
17:41 <+psi> you DONT know if the site is up or not you could just not be allowed to see it
17:42 <+psi> anyways back on track
17:42 <+psi> once this build tunnel to bob and bob back to alice is done the lifespan of this tunnel is 10 minutes max
17:42 <+psi> hence you are constantly building tunnels and switching them
17:43 <+psi> do you see how this varies GREATLY from cjdns?
17:43 <+psi> this is an ANONYMOUS MIXNET
17:43 <+psi> with a tcp and upd layer on top
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17:43 <+psi> you CAN NEVER COMPARE this to cjdns
17:44 <+psi> cjdns is NOT ANYTHING close to i2p
17:44 <+psi> since tunnels criss cross over the same machines...
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17:44 <+psi> you hvae chances to bundle messages together into 1 big message
17:45 <+psi> the term garlic routing means to clump messages together and have them unpack like cloves of garlic
17:45 <+psi> this clumping and unclumping of messages makes traffic analysis practically impossbile
17:46 <+psi> jercos tell me how cjdns works
17:46 <+psi> (in your own words)
17:46 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> So you might be taking a totally different return path for the same connection?
17:46 <+psi> yes
17:46 <+psi> you are every time
17:46 <+psi> and it shifts every 10  minutes
17:46 <+dg> Simply us having a conversation here is resulting in loads of tunnels
17:46 <+dg> These messages are being sent through loads
17:47 <+dg> and iirc, you have tunnels which just sit there doing nothing, yes psi?
17:47 <+psi> yes tunnels dont need to hvae data
17:47 <+psi> they can just sit there
17:47 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Okie-dokie-loki, my own words, here goes...
17:47  * efkt pokes a tunnel methodically
17:48 <+dg> on a side note psi, we could really do with some site like that drug one on Tor, simply to get us tested to hell and back -- although of course, it's illegal and
that'd be
            bad for us, it'd still mean attention + lots of feds poking around trying to break things
17:48 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns's lowest layer implements a label switching system, where a variable length tag is added to a label to create a path describing an entire
trip
                through the network from one endpoint to another
17:48 <+psi> dg: blackmarket.i2p
17:48 <+psi> also ssshhh respect
17:48 <+dg> sorry
17:48 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> in that sense it's very much non-anonymous, and more comparable to ethernet, however, that route may change without affecting traffic at all.
17:50 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> And I guess non-symmetric routes can easily exist, but I think there's some route searching optimization that uses the label reversal (the
entire path
                is still described to the endpoint you reach, because at each hop the relevant label is removed, bit-reversed, and stuck on the other edge of the label, so a
simple
                bit-reversal of the label will take you back to the origin of any message)
17:50 -!- anonymous534 [anonymous@irc2p] has joined #i2p-chat
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17:51 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I don't very well understand the routing protocol involved, though I've been told it's kademlia based, but nodes use their own cryptographic
identity
                to sign advertisements of routes, with each node along the way adding the appripriate label to climb the network at each hop
17:53 <+psi> anything else or is the lag here?
17:54 < efkt> pong
17:54 <+psi> jercos still typing?
17:54 <+dg> ping
17:54 <+dg> possibly
17:54 <+psi> efkt dg thanks
17:54 < efkt> Cheers.
17:54 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> ping

17:54 <+psi> pong
17:54 <@KillYourTV> k
17:55 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> ding
17:55 <+psi> dong
17:55  * efkt has to play tf2 now, thanks
17:55 < efkt> DING DONG
17:55 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> XD
17:55 <+psi> timeoout?
17:56 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> er, sorry, got called away to help a cow-orker.
17:56 <+psi> ah
17:56 <+dg> np
17:56 <+psi> so what you've described cjdns as is not an anonymity network but a way to verify that a route is reached to an endpoint without any anonymity involved
17:57 <+psi> shitty anonymity is an after effect
17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> So anyway, for a given route, each node will have elected a single path based on latency, and established a CA session with the endpoint,
generating a
                session key and handshaking using mutually cryptographic identities
17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> each IPv6 address matches a key, and vice versa
17:57 <+psi> well... even anonymity
17:57 <+psi> not even*
17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Sure, like I said, no anonymity in the design.
17:57 <+psi> so dont compare it to i2p
17:57 <+psi> i2p is an anonymous mixnet
17:58 <+psi> it provides anonymiy
17:58 <+psi> fucking keyboard
17:58 <+dg> It's sad because people use it for i2p like qualities and it's not the same thing.
17:58 <+dg> <dg>IIn any case, it is more dangerous to be fucking up when you believe you have anonymity than when you fully believe you do not (thinking you have protected
yourself when
            you haven't is more dangerous than knowing you're unsafe and moderating yourself accordingly)
17:58 <+psi> cjdns is being used like a non anonymous i2p
17:58 <+psi> and being advertised as an i2p
17:58 <+psi> THAT is the problem
17:58 <+dg> possibly with psuedo-anonymity which is.. bad.. very bad
17:58 <+dg> ^^
17:58 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> But I mean, that's what it is.
17:59 <+psi> there is NO anonymity on cjdns so please do NOT compare it to i2p
17:59 <+psi> i2p is anonymity centric
17:59 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> It's a non-anonymous i2p. it's a private network, authenticated end to end, carrying a service, and happens to not expose your IP, no matter if
you're
                consuming or providing a service
17:59 <+psi> cjdns is just another cute darknet
17:59 <+dg> I'm all for cute darknets, but i2p is something different, and really, we could do with the users
18:00 <+psi> i2p is ultra fucking cryptopgraphic noise machine
18:00 <+psi> cjdns can not compare
18:00 <+dg> i2p has an amazing amount of potential, so when some other project comes along, claims they can do things which we can (when they can't/we can do better), is
annoying.
18:00 <+psi> please dont compare
18:00 <+dg> i'm all for cjdns in the right places
18:00 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> chugga chugga steam powered anonymity
18:00 <+psi> except cjdns has no anonymtiy
18:00 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> All the right anonymity in all the right places.
18:01 <+psi> as you said back there
18:01 <+psi> It's a non-anonymous i2p
18:01 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> There has been a lot of discussion about running tor on cjdns, for that matter I don't see how i2p and cjdns wouldn't want to co-exist even.
18:01 <+psi> cjdns is being used incorrectly
18:01 <+psi> it's real potential is in connecting those without internet to the intenret
18:01 <+dg> i2p could definitely run on cjdns, but cjdns is for bridging over to places which do not have real internet
18:01 <+dg> It isn't some makeshift darknet, replacement for i2p
18:02 <+psi> cjdns is fucking weak vs i2p
18:02 <+psi> cjdns is NOT meant to be used as a darknet
18:02 <+psi> EVER
18:02 <+dg> the guy who came up with i2p is a fucking genius
18:02 <+psi> cjdns is nice too
18:02 < efkt> Huh. Guys, I can run a private tor based network (for example, within a vpn), can I do the same with i2p to a relatively easy degree?
18:02 <+psi> but it's not being used right
18:03 <+dg> efkt: good question. I was thinking about that also.
18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Well it does very much fit the friend to friend model of a darknet
18:03 <+psi> dg: talk with Meeh
18:03 <+psi> no not even close
18:03 < efkt> Because then garlicat would be hella fun, wouldnt it
18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdroute doesn't advertise its existance in any way unless a CA is set up.
18:03 <+psi> it does not even come close to i2p
18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> If you don't have the password or the key connecting in, cjdroute is quiet.
18:03 <@KillYourTV> efkt: That should be possible. There's possibly a guide somewhere on zzz.i2p
18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> woah woah, sicne when is i2p "the darknet"?
18:04 <+dg> also, cjdns is a bad idea in some respects :p
18:04 <+psi> cjdns is NOT anonymous, i2p is
18:04 <+dg> you have no plausible edniability
18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I wasn't saying "cjdns is i2p", I was saying "cjdns is a darknet"
18:04 <+dg> this message /definitely/ came from me!
18:04 <+dg> hahaha
18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> as we've outlined, not an anonymous darknet
18:04 <+dg> does nobody else see the problem with this?
18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> but it is in fact, a network that from the outside appears dark, and only spreads through direct peering.
18:04 <+psi> why the hell would you want an non anonymous darknet? it defeats the whoole purpose of a darknet.
18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Well, the problem doesn't really exist IMO.
18:05 <+psi> the anonymity aspect is the part that protects you in a darknet
18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> It's the same sort of concept with Frost, you have to be able to build an identity
18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> you can make a new identity in a split second, then throw it away when you're done.
18:05 <+dg> arguably in i2p, you don't have a real identity
18:05 < cipher> its a meshnet, not a darknet
18:05 <+psi> frost is something entirely differnt
18:05 <+psi> cipher: that
18:05 <+psi> meshnet != darknet
18:05 <+dg> I could throw dg away in a few seconds
18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Right, it's not a darknet that protects you from others on the darknet
18:05 <+psi> meshnets are best used to connect stuff to the internet
18:05 <+dg> .
18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I don't see that as being part of the definition of a darknet.
18:05 <+dg> that's not the darknets job LOL
18:06 <+dg> darknets are not firewalls
18:06 <+psi> what cjdns provides is perfect for what it's NOT being used for
18:06 <+psi> cjdns is being used in a totally incorhiernt manner
18:06 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> a darknet is just a network that you can't join unless you know someone on it, right?
18:06 <+dg> no
18:06 <+dg> it is not
18:06 <+psi> dg: cjdns is a routing engine
18:06 <+dg> not @ you, psi
18:07 <+dg> <iRelay> <jercos@freenode> a darknet is just a network that you can't join unless you know someone on it, right?
18:07 < cipher> not really
18:07 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> well, wikipedia tells me the term darknet only applies to filesharing services, so obviously I can't use that definition :|
18:07 < cipher> youre thinking of a F2F network
18:07 <+psi> in application cjdns is best for connecting parts of the world without internet to the internet
18:07 <+dg> I joined i2p and I didn't know anyone on it beforehand.
18:07 <+psi> yet it's not being used for that
18:07 < cipher> ^^
18:07 <+psi> it's being used to connect people on the internet
18:07 <+psi> it makes no sense
18:07 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns is a routing engine *and* a physical VPN, *and* an end to end encrypted tunnel
18:08 <+psi> the current application of cjdns is nonsensical
18:08 <+dg> If you want anonymity or to have that cool crypto factor, or both, i2p is what you want.
18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> well where is the term darknet firmly defined?
18:08 <+psi> and claiming it has anonymity is a lie
18:08 <+dg> If you think i2p hasn't got enough content or whatever, that is irrelevant.
18:08 -!- zab_afk is now known as zab_
18:08 <+psi> if you want content go onto the internet
18:08 <+psi> or 4chan
18:08 <+psi> you find a lot of stuff there
18:08 < cipher> I think TCX defines darknet best
18:08 <+psi> no anonymtiy
18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> But if I pick up the cool crypto factor from i2p, I'm not longer using IP.
18:08 <+psi> but lots of stuff
18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> no longer*
18:08 <+dg> what
18:09 <+dg> why do you need to be using ip
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18:09 <+dg> i don't understand why it's required
18:09 <+psi> what are you using ipx?
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=== HIGHLIGHT ===
18:10 <+psi> main beef with cjdns is that it's being used as reddit's toy and not being deployed where it would be more useful
=================

18:10 <+dg> yup
18:11 <+dg> let me uh.. hang on.
18:11 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan
18:11 <+dg> It calls cjdns an alternative to the internet
18:11 <+iRelay> Title: Meshnet Plan (at www.reddit.com)
18:11 <+psi> cjdns is NOT an alternative to the internet in any way
18:12 <+psi> it's a way to connect people with out internet to the main net easily
18:12 <+psi> that is what it is DESIGNED to do BEST
18:12 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yrxn3/no_fing_way_this_is_exactly_what_we_dont_want/ - proof.
18:12 <+psi> but sadly reddit is playing darknet with it
18:12 <+dg> They're trying to go for an alternative, resistant to attacks network
18:12 <+dg> That is *NOT* cjdns.
18:13 <+psi> in fact it's i2p
18:13 <+psi> and we've been TRYING to explain it but everyone is like "no gtfo we use cjdns"
18:13 <+dg> "Tor and I2P do a really good job anonymizing the existing internet, at the cost of locking down what you can do with it to the small set of services included in the
            anonymizer. CJDNS does a good job at creating a secure virtual internet, protected from DDoS and censorship, but not very anonymous (more pseudonymous, like Bitcoin).
CJDNS
            is also a lot more flexible, though the lack of exit nodes is an irritant to some people."
18:13 <+dg> lol
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18:13 <+dg> "secure virtual internet"
18:14 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/ywkoj/eli5_tor_vs_cjdns_vs_i2p/c5zpwnr - ugh
18:15 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yfeum/newb_question_the_mesh_meets_internet/c5vgcj0
18:15 <+dg> "So basically what I am getting at with this thread is a sort of guerrilla style internet. Ye olde BBS meets HAM radio kinda thing, but obviously much more robust.
Again I
            am new to this, so bare with me. "
18:15 < efkt> -.-
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18:15 <+dg> <dg> "Tor and I2P do a really good job anonymizing the existing internet, at the cost of locking down what you can do with it to the small set of services included in
the
            anonymizer. CJDNS does a good job at creating a secure virtual internet, protected from DDoS and censorship, but not very anonymous (more pseudonymous, like Bitcoin).
CJDNS
            is also a lot more flexible, though the lack of exit nodes is an irritant to some people."
18:15 <+dg> <dg> lol
18:15 <+dg> [[netsplit]]
18:15 <+dg> <dg> "secure virtual internet"
18:15 <+dg> <dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/ywkoj/eli5_tor_vs_cjdns_vs_i2p/c5zpwnr - ugh
18:15 <+dg> <dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yfeum/newb_question_the_mesh_meets_internet/c5vgcj0
18:16 <+dg> <dg> "So basically what I am getting at with this thread is a sort of guerrilla style internet. Ye olde BBS meets HAM radio kinda thing, but obviously much more
robust.
            Again I am new to this, so bare with me. "
18:16 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> >.>
18:16 <+iRelay> Title: Rainfly_X comments on ELI5 - TOR vs CJDNS vs I2P (at www.reddit.com)
18:16 <+iRelay> Title: UStud88 comments on Newb question: The mesh meets internet (at www.reddit.com)
18:16 <+psi> oh god
18:16 <+dg> We need to educate them
18:17 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> >pseudonymous
18:17 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> that would be the word I was looking for when i said semi-anonymous.
18:17 <+dg> The rest of it is bad.
18:17 <+dg> That was the only really good part of it
18:17 <+dg> They actually said pseudonymous
18:19 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> :p
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18:27 <@KillYourTV> ping
18:27 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> pong
18:27 < efkt> pong
18:27 <+dg> ping
18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> ding
18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> pong
18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> lag's not too bad...
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18:29 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> ...considering to <---> from freenode & oftc is via Tor
18:29 -!- Lyrise [lyrise@irc2p] has quit [Ping timeout]
18:30 <+psi> pseudoanoymity is poor anonymity
18:30 <+psi> cjdns sucks at anonymity
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18:30 <+psi> according to all this
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18:31 <+dg> psi: it's becoming apparent we /really/ should tell them
18:31  * psi makes pastes of conversation with permission of those involved for educational purposes
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18:31  * dg gives permission
18:31 <+psi> frenode guy ok with you?
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18:32 -!- mode/#i2p-chat [+v kiribati] by chanserv
18:32 <+psi> jercos?
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18:34 <@KillYourTV> &relay nicks
18:34 <+iRelay> freenode (6): iRelay, jercos, kytv, Mango2, mikalv, welterde; kytv (5): @iRelay, @KillYourTV, @MrGarrison, @ReturningNovice_, nick; oftc (2): @iRelay, kytv
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18:39 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> You have my permission to replay my words elsewhere, so long as they are not modified.
18:39 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Erm, relay.