<RogerVer> You guys should know that earlier this week I heard Mark was already talking with the bankruptcy lawyers to file whatever legal paperwork is required for a bankruptcy
<RogerVer> So there isn't much time if something is going to be done
<jayez> RogerVer can you assist us in speeding up the process and getting his attention?
<myrond> RogerVer: we are trying....
<RogerVer> I suspect he has already looked at the letter that was posted on Reddit.
<tinaivanova> is RogerVer the real RogerVer
<anarchystar> RogerVer: do you think mark is willing to release the customer list to you (emails hashed, so we can do 1 way verification), with the balances plain text? - he can leave it in your hands for extra trust, and you can run it against our database every day
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: does he browse reddit often, i thought he had more things to do
<RogerVer> I suppose we need to have a firm plan of exactly what we want from Mark
<MistaG> RogerVer: Agreed.
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: and there needs to be 90% of people agreeing on it that have funds on gox
<RogerVer> This will be hard....
<myrond> RogerVer: I want to see from Mark:  Gox succeed, Gox become solvent, debt-for-equity arrangement, Gox to continue
<RogerVer> Last I heard,  (about a year ago)  there are only two share holders
<RogerVer> I haven't heard anything from Mark since Tuesday
<MistaG> RogerVer: So what do you see as the first thing to do if this has any chance?
<myrond> RogerVer: things have progressed since that initial letter went out.  Bankruptcy/lawsuits are not the only answer
<RogerVer> 4 days ago Japan time
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: if he filed for bankruptcy is pretty much over
<RogerVer> yes
--- MistaG gives channel operator status to RogerVer
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: shareholders will get the money and use it to pay lawyers ,and in the end there will be nothing to pay out with, the most that could happen is mark and them going to jail
<RogerVer> That is the best news yet if true
<RogerVer> On Tuesday Mark told me via text message:  Currently filing for bankruptcy and will update based on that
<MistaG> RogerVer: Well that would be a problem.
<MistaG> RogerVer: Is there any way for it to be rescinded?
<RogerVer> Because I told him he needs to confirm the leaked documents ASAP
<RogerVer> I don't know much/anything about japanese bankruptcy law
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: why would japanese gov agencies say they have no juristiction over bitcoin then?
<RogerVer> There are a LOT of Japanese people who lost a lot of Bitcoin in Mtgox
<zoinky> RogerVer == RogerVer?
<RogerVer> I don't own a cat,  but I can PGP sign something with the PGP key from rogerver.com if people would like
<rfish2> RogerVer is here....
<RogerVer> Golden Times
<maz0> yes thanks RogerVer
<RogerVer> The segway
<jayez> Okay so RogerVer bitinstant what's our next step in order to make this a reality BEFORE it's too late.
<RogerVer> I already sent the tweet from @rogerkver,  so it is me
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: how many goxbtc did you buy before the whole thing happened
<RogerVer> You guys understand that according to Gox,  500K BTC of customer funds are missing,  and they only have 2K BTC?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: but what does it mean "missing
<zoinky> RogerVer, thats been declared a fact?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: but what does it mean "missing""?
<RogerVer> It is a claim by the guys at MTGOX
<myrond> RogerVer: If only 2K BTC left, I see a pretty big haircut :P
<RogerVer> I never saw their books, I only know what they told me
<tinaivanova> MistaG: iu agree ,but RogerVer and bitinstant are the only people that could talk to mark and convince him to read the reddit post and come talk to us
<RogerVer> 7 months ago when I made the video,  I saw their bank fiat balances
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: mark can't possibly be this stupid
<RogerVer> and letters from the bank
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: to let this go to court
<MistaG> RogerVer: Can you try to get Mark on the horn and see what can be negotiated to push this forward?
<Tiraspol> RogerVer: so what do you think actually happened to the funds? Are they temporarily locked? it's just doesn't seem mathematically possible that 744,000 coins just "vanished" from TM....
<myrond> RogerVer: which isn't the end of the world, if a haircut was agreed too the exchange would go back to solvency
<RogerVer> around $100M USD
<RogerVer> Liquidity != Solvency
<MistaG> RogerVer: Exactly.
<RogerVer> I never said gox was solvent,  I simply said that the bank delays were not caused by a lack of liquidity.   Even in hindsight today, I still think that was true.
<myrond> RogerVer: Haircut's + debt-to-equity could equal solvency
<RogerVer> I only feel bad that the video led more people to trust mtgox and lose money because of it,  but everything in the video was factually true
<rfish2> RogerVer: Did you look at his cold storage
<rfish2> RogerVer: Or just the bank statements?
<RogerVer> I only looked at fiat.  there were ZERO BTC withdrawal problems at that time.
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: we should stop talking about the past until theres no way to salvage this
 RogerVer: after that we'll talk about the past.... for years
<rfish2> RogerVer: How do you know there were zero bitcoin problems.  Perhaps he was taking peoples cash and buying bitcoins with them
<RogerVer> * There were ZERO Bitcoin withdrawal problems from mtgox at that time.
<zewelor> RogerVer: i think mtgox btc withdraw problems was for a year at least
<binaryphile> RogerVer: bitinstant: thanks for your open discussions in recent days, it's helping shed what little light there is to be had
<tinaivanova> bitinstant: RogerVer: kyledrake the reality is ,buying bitcoins is a risk, and they aren't fungible/interchangeable, the bitcoins on gox have a risk accounted in the price that is a different % risk on another exchange such as btc-e. third party risk. so the bid and ask can't be salvage, it will continue to be lower on gox than other exchanges. but we can and should salvage the fiat
<RogerVer> No,  I never offered to buy Mtgox,  and I doubt there is anyone willing to do that when they realize who big the debt is.  There is $20M USD and 500K BTC of customer money missing,  and they only have 2K BTC in their account.  No one would want to take that on.. It is too much
 RogerVer exactly.
<Muis> RogerVer: you seem pretty convinced that the document contains the right numbers, is that because Mark ignored the question?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: kyledrake i don't think that's correct, full tilt had lost over 400 million $ as well, but they came back. everyone was equity angry
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: kyledrake i don't think that's correct, full tilt had lost over 400 million $ as well, but they came back. everyone was equally angry
<RogerVer> I saw it in the draft, and they told it to me.  (both)   500K BTC missing
<bovako-fish> RogerVer: Who told you when?
<miaoux> RogerVer - how did they phrase 'missing' ?
<RogerVer> 250K missing belong to MTGOX,  500K missing belong to customers... they were all held int he same wallets.
<mtgox513> @RogerVer did they explain how they were "Missing" ?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: what do you mean 250k belong to gox
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: belong to marc?
<new299> RogerVer: what do you suggest be done? Seems like nothing much can be done...
<tinaivanova> new299: RogerVer you people really need to read up on the story of full tilt and pokerstars, they lost 400 million and got bought out and salvaged, it is exactly the same story, and it needs to go that way, even if we wait months for it
<RogerVer> I want to help everyone,  but I honestly think that with Mtgox owing customers 500K BTC,  and only having 2K BTC,  we are likely to get nothing.
<RogerVer> Tinaivanova,  loosing $400M is totally different than losing 500K BTC
<kyledrake> RogerVer seconded. It's done. Beyond repair.
<rfish2> RogerVer:  I want to know how the hell you lose 500,000 BTC?
<McLovin123> RogerVer, when did you find out they didn't have it?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: in what way? it's the same previous value, and they should start by reembursing people with fiat balances
<RogerVer> MTgox claims that someone was using the transaction malability  exploit for years to steal coins,  and they never noticed until they ran out of coins.
<dustcoin_> RogerVer: not really, I'm sure depositors would be okay being paid back in USD at market rate for their coins
<RogerVer> That is the claim as crazy as it sounds.
<analogrithems> RogerVer: He really should turn site back on and disable trading so users can at least download their history for tax loss proof
<bitinstant> RogerVer, see my skype please
<Muis> RogerVer: If 250k of Mark's personal holdings are missing, how can this be caused by maleability? They were never accesible that way?
<rfish2> albert: RogerVer is not saying that
<new299> RogerVer: overall this is positive for BTC as it gets mtgox out of the market
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit: well the rate for bitcoin is going to be lower obviously , just look at bitcoinbuilder, thats the real rate, that is the price of a goxbtc
<miaoux> RogerVer - It IS odd to you though that Mark has still not said anything? He approaches investors to try and bail out the company from it's liquidity issues, but continues to pay JPY + SEPA withdrawals, buy Gox.com (which can't have been cheap), and hint at the coins not being lost 'just yet'?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: well the rate for bitcoin is going to be lower obviously , just look at bitcoinbuilder, thats the real rate, that is the price of a goxbtc
<apocasparica> RogerVer, who do you think is the new owner of the missing bitcoins? this could be an important inforamtion. or are there no suggestions?
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit the real price of a goxbtc is what the market says it is. so it's 8% of a realbtc
<RogerVer> can we slow the room down?  I can't read everything
<xiando> RogerVer: Honestly, do you personally believe this "transaction malability so we lost the coins" story? just a yes/no on your guess (I personally don't but I do believe they lost them somehow)
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit the price of a goxbtc was 13% 12 hours ago, so they really need 100m to cover fiat ,with withdrawal delays and considering the 13% of goxbtc ,it could be only another 50-100m they need to cover their goxbtc balance sheet
<McLovin123> RogerVer... okay, say they somehow didn't realize all their BTC disappeared. Why doesn't their fiat add up??
<new299> RogerVer: so question is, if alll coins are probably lost what are we doing here? What is there to discuss?
<odin> Hey @RogerVer what kind of proof do you have? Or are you just speculating
<jayez> <new299> RogerVer: so question is, if alll coins are probably lost what are we doing here? What is there to discuss?
<RogerVer> I don't know what is true or what isn't   but the claim from mtgox so far is that they owe 500K BTC,  and only have 2K BTC.  (They are also missing around $20M)     I had about 25K BTC of my own stuck in mtgox from the Bitcoinica mess,  but at this point I don't hold out any hope that people will get back anything from mtgox.
<RogerVer> For now,  I think it may be more productive just to focus on other things and wait for MTgox to clarify what they plan to do
<Luke-Jr> RogerVer: while Bitcoinica owed you 25 kBTC, I don't think it's quite fair to attribute that full amount to MtGox since Bitcoinica lost so much of its money
<RogerVer> Maybe Mark is lying or under some sort of government duress,  but I have no idea how we would prove that
<RogerVer> Luke,  agreed... I would likely have only gotten back 10K to 15K of the 25K,  but that is still real money.
<anarchystar> McLovin123> RogerVer, personally, do you think there is a piece of the puzzle we are missing?
<RogerVer> Mark is the one with the answers of what happened.
<RogerVer> sorry everyone,  I need to do some other work now,  but I will do my best to reply to emails.  roger@memorydealers.com  (PGP key is the OLDEST one on the key servers,  I don't know who made the newer ones)
<Luke-Jr> RogerVer: key dates can be faked!
<RogerVer> the PGP key is also the one listed on rogerver.com
<anarchystar> <RogerVer> On Tuesday Mark told me via text message:  Currently filing for bankruptcy and will update based on that
<KuDeTa> RogerVer: are you around. Confirming bankruptcy is the end (for me, at least), so can you please give us the exact verbage?
<cokea> RogerVer
<cokea> Can you provide that RogerVer
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: i thought 700k btc were missing ,not 500k
<tinaivanova> RogerVer: we need to find a way to salvage this before tommorow
<bovako-afk> RogerVer: Dude, you forgot to register to NickServ,.. might want to do that. ^^