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  1. [00:46] <Arcanis_> I completely disagree with what you said earlier about users all being Mojang users and not being Technic/FTB/ATL, etc users. This is not true.
  2. [00:46] <Arcanis_> I, like many other people, haven't used vanilla in well over two years. I ran bukkit servers. I've played forge. And now I run an MCPC+ server. But vanilla? Nope.
  3. [00:47] <Arcanis_> Why is that? Many people have different ideas about how they want to play games and spend their time.
  4. [00:47] <Arcanis_> That should not be limited by YOUR vision of how a game should be played.
  5. [00:47] <Arcanis_> Or your intepretation
  6. [00:48] <Arcanis_> This fear campaign has been plainly dishonest and unecessary.
  7. [00:48] <Arcanis_> And mostly it just shows for people with deductive reasoning skills that Mojang is being lazy.
  8. [00:48] <Arcanis_> If you don't want launchers to do a certain thing, but poeple don't like Mojang's shitty launcher, either provide a better launcher or provide a better system for the existing launchers so that they don't do that thing you don't want them to do.
  9. [00:49] <Arcanis_> Instead, you guys are throwing a damned tantrum.
  10. [00:49] <Arcanis_> Because people are working with the system that was presented to them.
  11. [00:49] <Arcanis_> This is illogical.
  12. [00:49] <Arcanis_> I doubt you will respond to me. I don't expect it. But you might read this. And given that I don't know you or your personality, you may as well just ignore it. But it might show you some reason.
  13. [00:49] <Arcanis_> And it might help you to see the other side.
  14. [00:57] <Grum> it was ripped out of context
  15. [00:57] <Arcanis_> Here is your chance to clarify.
  16. [00:58] <Grum> the users are our users, if they use something else they are obviously users of those things. However, if you want to send data around do that based on whatever *you* have created for the users, do not send data around that is only at the users' computer so they can log in to servers
  17. [00:58] <Grum> it's that simple
  18. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Alright, then let's move to my second point. Many systems provide an API for third party authentication. I can use Google/Facebook to log into websites all over the place without sending any actual auth info.
  19. [00:59] <Grum> You have no business 'having' the tokens so a user can log into a game-server on *your* servers, they should only be local and used for the purpose they are created for
  20. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Instead of punishing 3rd party launchers for using the system that was put in front of them, can we provide an alternative?
  21. [00:59] <Grum> Do you understand that we have a limited amount of people working at Mojang?
  22. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Yes. I do.
  23. [01:00] <Arcanis_> I also understand that 15 million copies were sold for the PC, many millions more for other platforms.
  24. [01:00] <Grum> Do you understand that we're not going to build things that we know we're going to have to deprecate in the future?
  25. [01:00] <Arcanis_> Mojang is not an indie company anymore. By definition you publish your own games and do so much more.
  26. [01:00] <Arcanis_> It's time to mature.
  27. [01:00] <Grum> All of that matters nothing
  28. [01:01] <Grum> The amount of sales, the amount of money -- if it was less or more we'd be having the same discussion
  29. [01:01] <Arcanis_> With more sales, you have more resources at your disposal.
  30. [01:01] <Grum> so now answer my question
  31. [01:01] <Arcanis_> With that, you have more purchasing power. More ability to hire more people.
  32. [01:02] <Grum> should we waste those resources on something that we *KNOW* we are not going to want to have around in the future?
  33. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Does Mojang have a defined roadmap?
  34. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Is it publicly available so that people can look at it and know what is going on?
  35. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Or are people left in the dark intentionally?
  36. [01:02] <Arcanis_> It is pointless to create things you know you want to get rid of.
  37. [01:02] <Grum> Ah, so google tells exactly what they are going to do to everyone?
  38. [01:03] <Grum> let us not derail this.
  39. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Google is one example, but google doesn't have the same type of community.
  40. [01:03] <Grum> Again, that doesn't matter
  41. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Road maps are necessary for user input and feedback.
  42. [01:03] <Grum> But that implies we want feedback on these issues
  43. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Otherwise you end up with a lot of frustrated people.
  44. [01:03] <Arcanis_> You don't want feedback from people who use your systems?
  45. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Do their opinions not matter?
  46. [01:04] <Arcanis_> That is a terrible attitude.
  47. [01:04] <Grum> Can you imagine there are some subjects where 'user input' actually doesn't matter at all for the course of what is going to happen?
  48. [01:04] <Grum> Like for example the skin system
  49. [01:04] <Grum> we had no choice but to change it, it literally *broke* under the weight of bad design and millions of users
  50. [01:04] <Arcanis_> Ahh yes, but in many cases, user input is very important.
  51. [01:05] <Grum> yes, but who are you to decide which cases that applies to?
  52. [01:05] <Grum> Shouldn't we decide this?
  53. [01:05] <Arcanis_> You are implying that this is black and white. You have to think intelligently about how you would receive input and on what things.
  54. [01:05] <Grum> Which is what we're doing
  55. [01:05] <Arcanis_> I think your community should decide.
  56. [01:05] <Arcanis_> Rather than 5 guys.
  57. [01:05] <Grum> Yeah, design by community doesn't work
  58. [01:05] <Arcanis_> The people who play the game.
  59. [01:05] <Grum> and its more than 5 people
  60. [01:05] <Grum> and this is not about gameplay
  61. [01:05] <Arcanis_> 5 was an arbitrary number.
  62. [01:06] <Grum> happens to match the size of the team working on MC
  63. [01:06] <Grum> but hey!
  64. [01:06] <Arcanis_> I'm leading to something really important here.
  65. [01:06] <Arcanis_> I work with linux systems. Open source development is incredibly important.
  66. [01:06] <Grum> But we're not opensource
  67. [01:06] <Grum> so it doesn't really apply :)
  68. [01:06] <Arcanis_> And not just working with it, but also for education.
  69. [01:06] <Grum> also opensource doesnt mean 'flawless' -- remember heartbleed?
  70. [01:06] <Arcanis_> Well many of us feel that Mojang should change their stance.
  71. [01:06] <Arcanis_> Neither does closesource.
  72. [01:06] <Grum> 'their stance' on what?
  73. [01:06] <Arcanis_> There will be bugs either way.
  74. [01:07] <Grum> yes
  75. [01:07] <Arcanis_> But open source allows for user generated feedback and input.
  76. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Also, if you don't like something a user wants, you don't accept a pull request.
  77. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Simple as that.
  78. [01:07] <Grum> Ah, and it takes no time at all handling pullrequests
  79. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Come up with standard practices.
  80. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Rather than everyone coming up with their own unique system.
  81. [01:07] <Grum> Which is what we're doing
  82. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Making it impossible for the end user to work with these things without a 3rd party launcher.
  83. [01:08] <Grum> we're changing the codebase to something that is modifiable
  84. [01:08] <Arcanis_> I heard mod api was cancelled in favor of a plugin api.
  85. [01:08] <Grum> But again, this has nothing to do with launchers
  86. [01:08] <Grum> sigh, modding is not something that is 'sustainable'
  87. [01:08] <Arcanis_> I don't see a problem with it.
  88. [01:08] <Grum> even most of the forge things are more in a the style of plugins than mods nowadays
  89. [01:08] <Arcanis_> It's a matter of design.
  90. [01:08] <Grum> and lex is going to great troubles limited the ease of doing actual 'coremods'
  91. [01:09] <Grum> it's not.
  92. [01:09] <Grum> Modding implies taking something, changing it, putting it back
  93. [01:09] <Grum> two people cannot mod the same piece of code at the same time
  94. [01:09] <Grum> which is why shit like modloaders etc exist
  95. [01:09] <Arcanis_> Actually that is also a matter of design.
  96. [01:09] <Arcanis_> <--- making a game in Python, PyPy, etc.
  97. [01:09] <Grum> they 'abstract' the common pieces people want to do changes to
  98. [01:09] <Arcanis_> Can inject modded code while it's running and update immediately.
  99. [01:10] <Arcanis_> So... matter of design.
  100. [01:10] <Grum> Not sure how any of that matters?
  101. [01:10] <Grum> Modding is building tightly coupled things, in the tightest way possible, actually changing the class in a non-dynamic language
  102. [01:10] <Arcanis_> I haven't messed enough with Forge to say with enough certainty, but I'm relatively sure it's not possible in java.
  103. [01:11] <Grum> Again, not sure how it matters
  104. [01:11] <Grum> you drag in python, it has nothing to do with this :)
  105. [01:11] <Arcanis_> You were talking about different mods altering the same classes.
  106. [01:11] <Grum> the language is not part of the design
  107. [01:11] <Arcanis_> I know it isn't... I was using an example from something else that is designed differently.
  108. [01:11] <Grum> the language is the thing you use to implement a design
  109. [01:12] <Grum> If the design is broken the language doesn't matter
  110. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Which goes back to my original point.
  111. [01:13] <Grum> I'm stating the current design is broken, or rather, there was no design to allow trivial extending
  112. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Yes it is.
  113. [01:13] <Grum> we're slowly fixing it
  114. [01:13] <Grum> but again, this all has nothing to do with launchers
  115. [01:13] <Arcanis_> And that process can be sped up.
  116. [01:13] <Grum> it cannot be sped up
  117. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Some to do with launchers.
  118. [01:13] <Grum> because people have no fucking clue what needs to happen
  119. [01:13] <Grum> maybe 5 out of 10000 do
  120. [01:13] <Arcanis_> That is the wrong attitude.
  121. [01:13] <Arcanis_> I know some incredibly talented programmers who play the game in their spare time.
  122. [01:14] <Grum> but finding those people between all the cruft is not worth it time wise right now
  123. [01:14] <Grum> Oh i know some too, I actually got some on the team
  124. [01:14] <Arcanis_> They come to you. All you need is people to filter out the bad ones. Again, thats what community support is for.
  125. [01:14] <Arcanis_> Crowd source your work, speed it up.
  126. [01:14] <Grum> again, right now we're not at a point where it is remotely comfortable to take MASSIVELY large patches from the community to fix the issues we're having
  127. [01:15] <Grum> even for ourselves, with 5 people, we run into eachother all the time
  128. [01:15] <Grum> because its a huge pain in the ass tightly clustered ball of spaghetti code right now
  129. [01:15] <Grum> that has to be untangled
  130. [01:15] <Arcanis_> Alright. Well until you do open to your community, your community will continue to be incredibly frustrated. There is a lot of it going around.
  131. [01:15] <Grum> and for a simple frikking change like 'not having the code decide which texture goes where on a block' you end up hacking at the code for two weeks, doing changes in over 100 files
  132. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Yeah I know how that is -.-
  133. [01:16] <Grum> those things are not even compatible in our team right now
  134. [01:16] <Arcanis_> So I can understand your side.
  135. [01:16] <Grum> I spend a significant amount of time rebasing our major branches ontop of eachother
  136. [01:16] <Arcanis_> And I'm glad to actually talk to someone.
  137. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Not on Twitter.
  138. [01:16] <Grum> twitter sucks
  139. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Yes.
  140. [01:16] <Grum> fuck char limits, fuck mentioning people counting to those limits
  141. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Because.. I've used Minecraft a very long time now. And there are a ton of people jumping ship right now.
  142. [01:17] <Arcanis_> And that makes me sad.
  143. [01:17] <Grum> people jump ship all the time
  144. [01:17] <Arcanis_> I mean a lot of people.
  145. [01:17] <Grum> nothing significant is happening at all :)
  146. [01:17] <Arcanis_> One thing that is incredibly important.
  147. [01:17] <Arcanis_> I talked to Ryan Holt, I think is his name?
  148. [01:18] <Grum> Holtz, yes
  149. [01:18] <Arcanis_> We really need to implement a proper job queuing system.
  150. [01:18] <Grum> yes
  151. [01:18] <Arcanis_> I work with TickThreading and got Nallar back to working on it.
  152. [01:18] <Arcanis_> But that's really a tiny bandaid for a big wound.
  153. [01:18] <Grum> you dont thread things in mc haha
  154. [01:18] <Arcanis_> Yeah..
  155. [01:18] <Grum> world access is the unsafest thing *EVER*
  156. [01:18] <Arcanis_> It breaks things..
  157. [01:19] <Grum> (as in multithread unsafe)
  158. [01:19] <Arcanis_> Well I was thinking of different methods to implement a job queuing system.
  159. [01:19] <Arcanis_> But that isn't my area of expertise.
  160. [01:20] <Grum> neither are they mine
  161. [01:20] <Arcanis_> I found something called Gearman, and some people said it could work. But it might be better to write a new system that is designed to work with MC.
  162. [01:20] <Grum> but just having an executer queue that you can submit jobs which then get handled on the main-thread during a certain moment of a cycle should be plenty
  163. [01:21] <Grum> for now at least
  164. [01:21] <Grum> also, what sort of 'ticking' are you talking about?
  165. [01:21] <Arcanis_> Well, modded servers (and I know modding isn't supported) deal with a lot of issues because everything is coupled to the main thread.
  166. [01:21] <Arcanis_>
  167. [01:22] <Grum> that says very little about what it is actually doing
  168. [01:22] <Arcanis_> So when you have a lot of tile entities that update a lot, it causes a lot of lag because that update thread is overloaded.
  169. [01:22] <Grum> I like: Code should be self-documenting - when possible meaningful names and good design should make comments unnecessary
  170. [01:22] <Grum> written by someone who 'gets it' :)
  171. [01:22] <Arcanis_> I agree.
  172. [01:22] <Arcanis_> That's how I write.
  173. [01:23] <Grum> 'a lot of tileentities' ... well there we go
  174. [01:23] <Grum> i dont think any of the tileentities we have in the game actually have to tick
  175. [01:23] <Arcanis_> Well, TT spreads the update ticks over as many threads as you have cores.
  176. [01:23] <Arcanis_> Hoppers.
  177. [01:23] <Arcanis_> I've seen them do a lot of updates in conjunction with pipes.
  178. [01:23] <Grum> ok maybe that one ;)
  179. [01:23] <Arcanis_> They were never designed to work with pipes.
  180. [01:24] <Grum> or pipes were never updated to work with hoppers? ;D
  181. [01:24] <Arcanis_> For vanilla, this isn't a problem. But it is a HUGE MAJOR HUGE problem for modded servers lol.
  182. [01:24] <Grum> afaik also fixed?
  183. [01:24] <Arcanis_> There are ... I think 5 major pipe mods? They all work like that.
  184. [01:24] <Arcanis_> In what version?
  185. [01:25] <Grum> i assume you are talking about opis reporting hoppers taking a relatively long time?
  186. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Modded servers for the most part can't progress past 1.6.4. forge 1.7 is a buggy hellscape.
  187. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Yeah. Was that a bug?
  188. [01:25] <Grum> yes
  189. [01:25] <Grum> and has been fixed
  190. [01:25] <Grum> probably 1.7
  191. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Disregard that statement haha.
  192. [01:25] <Grum> no idea, we don't care for old shit :P
  193. [01:25] <Arcanis_> I understand that. Which brings up another point.
  194. [01:25] <Grum> but wait!
  195. [01:25] <Grum> shouldn't the whole 'collective of the opensource internet' be able to make Forge stable in minutes?
  196. [01:26] <Arcanis_> lol what
  197. [01:26] <Arcanis_> People are generally lazy and are fine with expecting someone else to do something.
  198. [01:26] <Arcanis_> Also lex has a bad attitude, so no one will work with him.
  199. [01:27] <Arcanis_> Otherwise, I'm sure it would get updated faster.
  200. [01:27] <Grum> He has an attitude, often the right one :)
  201. [01:27] <Grum> he's just separating the cruft from the non-cruft
  202. [01:27] <Arcanis_> I meant, he is really mean to people.
  203. [01:27] <Grum> mean? no, people are stupid
  204. [01:27] <Grum> they get angry when you say they are stupid :(
  205. [01:27] <Arcanis_> That isn't true either. One person might not be an expert in computer science, but could be a complete genius in their field.
  206. [01:27] <Arcanis_> And you have no way of knowing that.
  207. [01:28] <Grum> obviously
  208. [01:28] <Grum> but everyone is stupid in something :)
  209. [01:28] <Arcanis_> Obviously there is a 50% chance that someone is below average ;)
  210. [01:28] <Grum> therefor everyone is stupid
  211. [01:28] <Arcanis_> LOL
  212. [01:28] <Grum> statement holds perfectly stable ;)
  213. [01:28] <Arcanis_> But you must forgive that for the things people are good in. Instead of stupid, call it ignorance.
  214. [01:28] <Grum> but that implies i want to spend time on making that difference
  215. [01:29] <Grum> anyhow!
  216. [01:29] <Arcanis_> The difference between stupid people and JUST ignorant people is that the stupid ones won't understand something when you explain it to them plainly.
  217. [01:29] <Arcanis_> Yes back to my point.
  218. [01:29] <Grum> RIght now the codebase is in no shape at all to either be 'opensource' or 'taking pullrequests from random people'
  219. [01:29] <Arcanis_> really what I mean about being open source.. ther eis a middle ground.
  220. [01:29] <Arcanis_> You don't support older versions.
  221. [01:29] <Arcanis_> But the code is still obfuscated and hard to work with.
  222. [01:29] <Grum> however, we are taking pullrequests from 'select few'
  223. [01:30] <Arcanis_> So why not release open source versions of old releases?
  224. [01:30] <Arcanis_> Say open source 1.6 so people can finish patching the bugs on their own.
  225. [01:30] <Grum> lol
  226. [01:30] <Arcanis_> And if someone comes up with good ideas, it can be pulled to the newest version.
  227. [01:30] <Grum> it's java, it is opensource
  228. [01:30] <Grum> don't pretend that short names are a problem
  229. [01:31] <Arcanis_> It causes code to break on every update.
  230. [01:31] <Arcanis_> When it has to be remapped.
  231. [01:31] <Arcanis_> And then it has to be updated again.
  232. [01:31] <Arcanis_> But what if the mod didn't have to be updated?
  233. [01:31] <Grum> it only has to be remapped
  234. [01:31] <Grum> i dont see a problem
  235. [01:31] <Grum> should be trivial to do that
  236. [01:31] <Arcanis_> It's tough on the userbase.
  237. [01:31] <Arcanis_> Not so tough on the dev to remap.
  238. [01:31] <Arcanis_> People waiting and waiting for things to work properly again to see new features.
  239. [01:31] <Arcanis_> They don't want to abandon what they already made.
  240. [01:32] <Grum> you do realize that you are making an argument that people should work together to make something, yet no-one has started to make a sane api for the things they want to have abstracted out of the game so they just have to collectively update said api?
  241. [01:32] <Arcanis_> Well that is kind of the argument that other people are making is that they want to fork forge and take care of it themselves.
  242. [01:33] <Grum> so why don't they?
  243. [01:33] <Grum> just dont bother lex with it :)
  244. [01:33] <Arcanis_> And stick with 1.6.4, backport new things from newer versions, and never update because updating is always such a nightmare.
  245. [01:33] <Grum> and we'll shut down access for 1.6.4 eventually then
  246. [01:33] <Grum> because we actually do not want this to happen
  247. [01:33] <Arcanis_> Which is my point.
  248. [01:33] <Arcanis_> I don't want to be stuck on 1.6
  249. [01:33] <Arcanis_> I don't want to depend on it.
  250. [01:33] <Grum> modders are just lazy
  251. [01:34] <Grum> they sign up for: "LETS HACK AGAINST OBFUSCATED CODE" and then "OMG THE OBFUSCATION, WHIIIINEEE"
  252. [01:34] <Arcanis_> Why does it have to be obfuscated?
  253. [01:34] <Grum> it's like a mac-user not buying a new mac every 2-3 years
  254. [01:34] <Grum> and then complaining 'stuff gets slow' or 'stops getting updates'
  255. [01:34] <Arcanis_> (release deobfuscated version for development after some time)
  256. [01:34] <Grum> *you know that when you buy a bloody mac!*
  257. [01:34] <Arcanis_> who buys a mac?
  258. [01:34] <Arcanis_> o.o
  259. [01:34] <Grum> I do
  260. [01:35] <Grum> i hate windows as a dev os, it's a piece of shit
  261. [01:35] <Arcanis_> Yes it is.
  262. [01:35] <Arcanis_> And I guess mac is in *nix now.
  263. [01:35] <Grum> mac is bsd based yes
  264. [01:35] <Grum> it at least has a 'proper core'
  265. [01:35] <Grum> or at least something with a fucking shell on it >.>
  266. [01:35] <Arcanis_> So better than windows I suppose.
  267. [01:35] <Grum> and a concept of ssh >.>
  268. [01:35] <Arcanis_> right
  269. [01:36] <Grum> OMG GIT SO HARD ... no .. windows is just retarded for not having a sane shell/ssh ability
  270. [01:36] <Grum> no-one on linux or mac ever complains about it :P
  271. [01:36] <Arcanis_> But this is a serious request. Why not release deobfuscated code after a certain period of time specifically for development?
  272. [01:38] <Grum> because that would get people stuck on certain versions? :)
  273. [01:39] <Grum> and obviously it would be absolutely retarded to just give out the source to a sold product
  274. [01:39] <Arcanis_> There are people that still play 1.5, 1.4, and 1.2
  275. [01:39] <Arcanis_> Hmm, I work with android from time to time to.
  276. [01:39] <Arcanis_> Android is a sold product and it's 100% open source.
  277. [01:39] <Arcanis_> You can just download the whole thing.
  278. [01:39] <Grum> yes and those people playing those versions 'because they are so stable' (or whatever -- have redpower2?) are going to be better off if we have custom versions floating about based on different sourcecode?
  279. [01:40] <Grum> they dont sell android :)
  280. [01:40] <Arcanis_> Hmm. Well then a compromise.
  281. [01:40] <Grum> the compromise is that we let you decompile ;)
  282. [01:40] <Arcanis_> Release the source to a select group of people that work with modding that you can trust. MCP, Forge.
  283. [01:40] <Arcanis_> That's not a compromise.
  284. [01:40] <Grum> who says that is not the case already?
  285. [01:40] <Arcanis_> People can do that anyway whether you like it or not.
  286. [01:41] <Grum> MCP gets the full mapping of the obfuscation for a loooong time now
  287. [01:41] <Arcanis_> Then why doesn't forge come out fully mapped?
  288. [01:41] <Grum> and Forge works closely with MCP
  289. [01:41] <Grum> because they choose not to? They use it as reference?
  290. [01:41] <Grum> also, we'd stop giving it :P
  291. [01:41] <Arcanis_> Is it that they need specific permission?
  292. [01:41] <Arcanis_> So if they can figure it out themselves, it's fine.
  293. [01:41] <Arcanis_> But not if you give it to them.
  294. [01:42] <Grum> they asked for the mapping to assist them, based on that they get it
  295. [01:43] <Arcanis_> I just want more support for the community as a whole. A lot of us feel like modding doesn't receive much of any support, like Mojang is strictly anti modding.
  296. [01:43] <Grum> Obviously we don't support it
  297. [01:43] <Grum> again goes down the lines of the 'not doing stuff with things you know you don't want to have around in this shape or form in the future'
  298. [01:44] <Arcanis_> Which then brings me back to having a roadmap.
  299. [01:44] <Arcanis_> You don't need to explicitly say EVERYTHING you plan on doing. plans change.
  300. [01:44] <Arcanis_> But some generaly direction.
  301. [01:44] <Grum> the roadmap is 'working towards the api'
  302. [01:44] <Arcanis_> That's a start.
  303. [01:44] <Grum> which is what we're doing :)
  304. [01:44] <Grum> all the snapshots show you which direction we're currently tackling
  305. [01:45] <Grum> so there, you have your information
  306. [01:45] <Arcanis_> I usually see new features that most of us aren't all that interested in. When biomes were added, we said "We have bop, extrabiomesXl, Highlands, etc."
  307. [01:45] <Arcanis_> Slime blocks.
  308. [01:45] <Arcanis_> These things can be added by mods.
  309. [01:45] <Arcanis_> And usually do.
  310. [01:46] <Arcanis_> The adventure map stuff for command blocks was interesting.
  311. [01:46] <Grum> Yes, but why would we care you already have a mod for something?
  312. [01:46] <Arcanis_> Because you should care what your users use.
  313. [01:46] <Arcanis_> granted not everyone uses mods.
  314. [01:46] <Grum> ooooh really?!
  315. [01:46] <Arcanis_> Nowhere near everyone.
  316. [01:46] <Grum> ;)
  317. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Buut. Features should be secondary to fixing and patching things.
  318. [01:47] <Grum> also, 99% of the 'features' added to the game are 'spare time'-things
  319. [01:47] <Grum> which they are
  320. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Alright, I can take that.
  321. [01:47] <Grum> 4/5 people are working almost exclusively on hacking the code clean
  322. [01:47] <Grum> jens adds stuff and splits time between PC and PE
  323. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Why is it only a team of 5?
  324. [01:47] <Grum> so in fact its 4/4.5 people almost exclusively cleaning up the code
  325. [01:48] <Grum> because it is? because more people would not make it better
  326. [01:48] <Arcanis_> I understand not wanting too many people on the same thing.
  327. [01:48] <Arcanis_> So split it up into different sections and farm it out to different teams.
  328. [01:48] <Arcanis_> *if you had those teams
  329. [01:48] <Grum> lol
  330. [01:48] <Grum> what sort of teams do you envision?
  331. [01:49] <Grum> every change we need to do touches ~40% of the codebase
  332. [01:49] <Grum> there is HUGE overlap even in our team of 4 working on cleaning up
  333. [01:49] <Arcanis_> This is true.
  334. [01:49] <Arcanis_> But the entry point might be different.
  335. [01:50] <Arcanis_> I don't know how your internal system works.
  336. [01:50] <Arcanis_> But there is always room for improvement and efficiency gains.
  337. [01:51] <Grum> we could perhaps use 1 extra person
  338. [01:52] <Grum> but even that will mean i'll have to spend 50% of my time making sure everyone is doing what they should be doing in the way they should be doing it while not creating a new mess or causing conflicts
  339. [01:52] <Arcanis_> Being a project leader... not an easy task.
  340. [01:53] <Grum> i'm not a project leader -- thats the thing
  341. [01:53] <Arcanis_> A lot is expected of you.
  342. [01:53] <Arcanis_> I know you're not.
  343. [01:53] <Grum> but i am the one who is by far the most critical of 'how code looks'
  344. [01:53] <Arcanis_> Which makes you the key player.
  345. [01:53] <Arcanis_> Not technically in charge, but definitely in authority.
  346. [01:54] <Grum> yes, i make people rewrite their code plenty of times a week :P
  347. [01:54] <Arcanis_> That certainly slows everything down needlessly.
  348. [01:54] <Grum> needlessly?
  349. [01:54] <Arcanis_> I mean
  350. [01:54] <Grum> if i cannot read the new code they've written they are writing shitty code?
  351. [01:54] <Arcanis_> Yes, I'm agreeing with you.
  352. [01:55] <Grum> remember that thing i liked so much? "Code should be self-documenting - when possible meaningful names and good design should make comments unnecessary"
  353. [01:55] <Arcanis_> As in, having to write something twice is slow. Would be better to have it done right the first time.
  354. [01:55] <Grum> yes, but i cannot pair-program with everyone
  355. [01:55] <Grum> and people are also depending on me to write core systems ... at which i sortof suck
  356. [01:56] <Arcanis_> Should have a seminar on best practices that everyone can fall asleep in.
  357. [01:56] <Grum> but then again, anyone who says they do not suck at that ... well probably get surpassed by someone else who still believes they can learn
  358. [01:56] <Arcanis_> ;)
  359. [01:56] <Grum> yes, actually already sosrtof considered making everyone watch all the episode of cleancoders :P
  360. [01:56] <Arcanis_> Is that a youtube thing?
  361. [01:56] <Arcanis_> I like to brush up a lot.
  362. [01:57] <Arcanis_> But you could institute mandatory practices and required reading.
  363. [01:57] <Grum> i could, but you know things do not work like that
  364. [01:57] <Arcanis_> Yeah..
  365. [01:57] <Arcanis_> In a perfect world.
  366. [01:57] <Grum> if you do not know cleancoders, imho you cannot *EVER* be a good java-dev
  367. [01:57] <Arcanis_> <--- not a java dev
  368. [01:57] <Grum> :)
  369. [01:57] <Arcanis_> I can read it and write it a bit, but I do other things.
  370. [01:57] <Grum> its more in general
  371. [01:58] <Grum> if you call yourself a java-dev you are supposed to know about that
  372. [01:58] <Arcanis_> Then I will look into it for the sake of knowing it.
  373. [01:58] <Grum>
  374. [01:59] <Arcanis_> Thank you.
  375. [01:59] <Arcanis_> Also, thank you for taking the time to actually talk to me.
  376. [02:00] <Arcanis_> You have heard my concerns and you can think them through and talk to others about them. But one last thing needs to be talked about.
  377. [02:00] <Arcanis_> This twitter war needs to stop.
  378. [02:00] <Arcanis_> It's kind of funny, but it's also not.
  379. [02:01] <Arcanis_> So as people, we need to have a rational conversation about where to go.