[13:32:55] * neobrain (~neobrain@ciphon.physik.uni-erlangen.de) has joined #retroarch
[13:33:08] <neobrain> Squarepusher: is that actually you posting on 4chan?
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[13:33:21] <@Squarepusher> if you want to stir up some shit in this chan I'd sincerely advise you not to
[13:33:25] <@Squarepusher> I'm not in the mood for that today
[13:33:32] <@Squarepusher> take it to PM
[13:33:34] <neobrain> sure
[13:40:27] <neobrain> Squarepusher: There is a lot of incorrect claims in your post. First of all, no one of us is trying to make money off of the donations. Rather, we are trying to find a way that we don't have to waste our personal income on things required for Citra development
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[13:41:00] <@Squarepusher> dude - ask people to send you secondhand 3DSes then
[13:41:06] <@Squarepusher> this shit can be done with zero money
[13:41:16] <@Squarepusher> if people like you enough - they will do it
[13:41:37] <neobrain> it's not like the consoles are the only expense that we have.
[13:41:37] <@Squarepusher> nothing has to come out of your own pocket - if people agree with your ideology and they want to support you
[13:41:46] <@Squarepusher> what 'other expenses' do you have then?
[13:41:51] <@Squarepusher> because I run this entire operation with zero dollars
[13:42:06] <@Squarepusher> if you can find a guy like DarkFire that likes you enough
[13:42:08] <@Squarepusher> you can get a vps for free
[13:42:10] <@Squarepusher> a website for free
[13:42:12] <@Squarepusher> the whole shebang
[13:42:20] <@Squarepusher> a buildbot for free
[13:42:53] <neobrain> also, asking for a whole 3DS by single persons is too much. If you want to wait a year for new hardware to arrive (because that's how long it takes to find someone that generous) that's cool, but I don't. I rather let people give small pieces towards reaching the full goal
[13:43:32] <neobrain> other stuff that we need is games, as well as flashcards (for homebrew code exec), SD cards, etc
[13:43:32] <@Squarepusher> what 'goal' would that be?
[13:43:49] <@Squarepusher> and what makes you oh so different from the people in the past that did all this without fundraisers, kickstarters, and all this crap?
[13:43:54] <neobrain> ... buying new consoles
[13:43:56] <@Squarepusher> and those people were more technically capable too BTW
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[13:44:04] <@Squarepusher> zsKnight didn't need to do all this bullshit
[13:44:06] <@Squarepusher> to make zSNES
[13:44:10] <@Squarepusher> neither did the SNES9x devs
[13:44:24] <@Squarepusher> so you tell me
[13:44:25] <neobrain> Squarepusher: Just because other people don't do this, why should I/we not be allowed to?
[13:44:31] <neobrain> like, really, what's your issue
[13:44:33] <neobrain> with that
[13:44:33] <@Squarepusher> because you CANNOT DO
[13:44:40] <@Squarepusher> Nintendo has patents on this stuff
[13:44:44] <@Squarepusher> 3DS is their prime money maker
[13:44:47] <@Squarepusher> what part of this are you not getting?
[13:44:58] <@Squarepusher> you are getting on very thin ice with this stuff
[13:45:09] <@Squarepusher> Dolphin maybe you could get somewhat of a free pass for - but 3DS? raising money directly? no, it's just a bad idea
[13:45:43] <@Squarepusher> Nintendo just recently filed a bunch of patents for videogame emulators of their consoles on mobile
[13:45:47] <@Squarepusher> go ahead - tempt the bear some more
[13:45:52] <@Squarepusher> let's see how it all ends up
[13:46:00] <@Squarepusher> but don't start crying later about how the evil Nintendo wanted to shut your shit down
[13:46:07] <@Squarepusher> you knew full well what was at stake here
[13:46:11] <neobrain> You do realize though that most of the money that we raise will eventually go to Nintendo in the one or the other way, right? I mean, given that the majority will be spent on consoles...
[13:46:20] <@Squarepusher> hahahahaha
[13:46:28] <@Squarepusher> anybody want to chime in on this people?
[13:46:36] <@Squarepusher> or do I just have to indulge this BS by myself
[13:47:10] <neobrain> hey, I'm being serious here.  Don't be an ass for no reason, please
[13:47:11] <@Squarepusher> look - if you just want to make money - just say so
[13:47:17] <@Squarepusher> don't make all sorts of excuses about it
[13:47:25] <@Squarepusher> I can at least respect people who are being honest about it
[13:47:31] <@Squarepusher> I don't respect dishonesty thoug
[13:47:46] <neobrain> I don't "just want to make money". If I wanted to do so, I wouldn't be writing emulators
[13:48:08] <@Squarepusher> so why don't you do then what everybody else has been doing in this 'scene'
[13:48:11] <@Squarepusher> and just view this as a hobby?
[13:48:17] <@Squarepusher> for you to turn to when you hav some free time to spare?
[13:48:45] <@Squarepusher> I don't get why suddenly starting as of 2011 AD everybody suddenly needs to start having 'money' in their 'emulator' for you to crank out code
[13:48:58] <@Squarepusher> just because Kickstarter gives you a means and a ways in doing so doesn't mean you should exercise that option
[13:49:10] <neobrain> how does any of that contradict with asking people for money to make me able to spend my free time without also spending money?
[13:49:36] <@Squarepusher> so you want to be 'reimbursed' for your time?
[13:49:38] <@Squarepusher> not the devices?
[13:49:44] <@Squarepusher> or which is it?
[13:49:50] <neobrain> look, I don't know how you feel about your projects, but I don#t really feel like spending 1000€ out of my own pocket just to make sure Citra developers will have proper hardware to test with even in the future
[13:50:09] <@Squarepusher> I'm trying to protect the emulation scene as it was in the past
[13:50:14] <@Squarepusher> before the big boys come in
[13:50:17] <@Squarepusher> and shut all our shit down
[13:50:22] <@Squarepusher> and that is what actions like this are going to lead towards
[13:50:38] <@Squarepusher> you're all going to be dragged before a court by these big boys and accused of profiting from copyright infringement
[13:50:42] <@Squarepusher> and then there will be much butthurting going on
[13:50:45] <@Squarepusher> I'm trying to prevent that
[13:51:05] <@Squarepusher> I've been there done that
[13:51:14] <neobrain> cool, then argue with that and don't make up random arguments like "trying to make money off intellectual property"
[13:51:15] <@Squarepusher> I've seen people in these underground console scenes go to jail
[13:51:18] <@Squarepusher> who thought they were untouchable
[13:51:28] <@Squarepusher> but it's true
[13:51:39] <@Squarepusher> emulators for money ARE making money off others' IP
[13:51:53] <@Squarepusher> and it IS seen as profiting from copyright infringement
[13:52:01] <@Squarepusher> that's why Broglia's accounts got shut down by Paypal
[13:52:30] <@Squarepusher> but of course we all know everybody is really running homebrew in these things - I know I know
[13:52:48] <neobrain> it's not emulators for money. the emu is and will always be free. people can do what they want with their money, and if that is supporting us it's their decision
[13:53:06] <@Squarepusher> yeah I've heard that copout plenty of times
[13:53:08] <@Squarepusher> but you know
[13:53:11] <neobrain> it's not a copout
[13:53:26] <@Squarepusher> well people make lots of intellectual excursions in order to justify things that are legally and morally wrong
[13:53:35] <neobrain> it's neither legally and morally wrong
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[13:53:39] <@Squarepusher> I don't think much of that is going to fly though when Nintendo starts getting the legal cannons out
[13:54:15] <neobrain> I don't care for made up ethical concerns on your side. it just seems like a very archaic thinking and ranting about "oh boy, I didn't get any support for my projects, so others may not get any either"
[13:54:20] <@Squarepusher> well nothing you say is going to make me feel better about this
[13:54:24] <@Squarepusher> neither it does for ToadKing
[13:54:25] <neobrain> (at least it very much sounds like that)
[13:54:33] <@Squarepusher> people who are old school are not going to like this
[13:54:35] <@Squarepusher> and I'm going to keep it old school
[13:54:43] <@Squarepusher> I'm not interested in this pathetic childish 'entrepreneurial' bullshit
[13:54:56] <@Squarepusher> I am disgusted by this bullshit going on on these app stores
[13:55:02] <@Squarepusher> and they can all go eat a dick as far as I'm concerned
[13:55:31] <neobrain> I don't want you to feel better, I would appreciate if you weren#t going to public forums and claiming we were making money off things. Because if you make the public think that we ARE asking for donations to make money, then you might very well yourself be the reason that people get sued in the end, for the wrong reasons
[13:55:32] <@Squarepusher> all of this prancing around acting like 'entrepreneurs' all this bullshit
[13:55:56] <@Squarepusher> if you do things that are legally and morally wrong
[13:55:59] <@Squarepusher> expect me to take a stance on it
[13:56:07] <@Squarepusher> you know full well what you are doing is not right
[13:56:13] <@Squarepusher> you are just making up excuses for why this is permissible
[13:56:20] <@Squarepusher> you know none of it is going to fly when Nintendo makes an example out of you
[13:56:43] <@Squarepusher> BTW now that we have you here
[13:56:48] <@Squarepusher> what was that Dolphin monetization document about?
[13:56:57] <@Squarepusher> not so much a 'fluke' was that eh?
[13:57:56] <neobrain> It was a brainstorming document (never evolved into anything serious) that I hoped would turn Dolphin profitable enough to pay a student full-time to do the kind of boring stuff that no one wants to do but maintains software quality
[13:58:32] <@Squarepusher> since when do videogame system emulators need to be "profitable"?
[13:58:37] <@Squarepusher> they never have been
[13:58:46] <@Squarepusher> how old are you?
[13:58:55] <neobrain> Given that only few people were interested AND that the team has been good at having not a single idea what to do with the ad income even, I throw away the idea because there was no point
[13:59:05] <@Squarepusher> were you actually around in the old days?
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[13:59:29] <@Squarepusher> I don't want to turn this into some 'age' thing but really man - it's kinda disgusting to turn the scene into this
[13:59:34] <neobrain> Eventually some people started to comment on the document, months (years?) after it was actually being worked on ... that was the only reason I actually deleted it
[13:59:40] <@Squarepusher> you are really moving it into some underground console scene shit
[13:59:46] <@Squarepusher> where entrepreneurs make big bucks off DRM dongles
[13:59:50] <@Squarepusher> that's what I see this as becoming
[13:59:57] <@Squarepusher> and I was against that then
[13:59:59] <@Squarepusher> and I will be against this now
[14:00:12] <@Squarepusher> there must be some better way of doing this that is less morally disagreeable
[14:00:38] <neobrain> I find your concept of moral funny
[14:00:59] <neobrain> not sure where you get the "underground" thing from
[14:01:02] <@Squarepusher> what I consider "immoral" is high school kids making money off giving people the ability to warez current-day Nintendo games yes
[14:01:07] <@Squarepusher> is that not what you are indirectly doing?
[14:01:10] <@Squarepusher> come on - stop playing games
[14:01:25] <@Squarepusher> would people give a shit about you raising funds for an emulator if it were not the 3DS?
[14:01:26] <@Squarepusher> no they wouldn't
[14:01:40] <@Squarepusher> so you're drawing the teen and kiddie crowd in that desperately wants this stuff - and you know there is money to be made there
[14:01:41] <neobrain> please don't make random (and false) assumptions about my personal background - at best you're making a fool out of yourself by doing so
[14:01:43] <@Squarepusher> is that not what it is all about?
[14:01:58] <@Squarepusher> dude I have the high ground here
[14:02:06] <@Squarepusher> your actions speak for yourself
[14:02:09] <@Squarepusher> I'm not raising in donations
[14:02:12] <@Squarepusher> I'm not doing any of this bullshit
[14:02:29] <@Squarepusher> I told you before that if you find people who care enough about you
[14:02:33] <@Squarepusher> this stuff doesn't have to cost a dime
[14:02:40] <@Squarepusher> so the reason you want to pursue with this must be for some other reason
[14:04:01] <@Squarepusher> it's sad that your moral compass is so broken that you can't even see the obvious problems with what you want to do
[14:04:19] <@Squarepusher> I'd like to be friendly to you guys but raking in money with current-day Nintendo shit? no, I can't get behind that
[14:04:23] <neobrain> Ugh, okay. Thanks for wasting my time, I guess
[14:04:44] <neobrain> Keep living in your world, I still would like if you didn't spread BS about our intentions.
[14:04:47] <@Squarepusher> I can't talk 21-year old kids out of not wanting to make money with stuff they shouldn't be making money off yes
[14:04:48] <neobrain> Now, have a nice day.
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[14:05:13] <@Squarepusher> so why didn't nobody say a thing?
[14:05:28] <@Squarepusher> you people told me before about how you thought it was a bad idea
[14:05:33] <@Squarepusher> but nobody wanted to say shit
[14:05:38] <@Squarepusher> Oggom - not a peep from you man
[14:07:05] <Oggom> Wanted my to put fuel in the fire?
[14:07:08] <Oggom> *me
[14:07:41] <@Squarepusher> I wanted you and others who disagreed with it to speak your mind
[14:07:52] <@Squarepusher> if you can tell me about it you can tell him
[14:07:57] <@Squarepusher> let these people know that what they are doing is not acceptable
[14:08:02] <@Squarepusher> don't just leave it up to me to say what needs to be esaid
[14:08:26] <@Squarepusher> if more people spoke out against it it might do something
[14:08:32] <@Squarepusher> if it's just me saying it I can be marginalized
[14:11:04] <Oggom> I'll see if I can add anything meaningful the next time he comes around
[14:11:26] <@Squarepusher> too late now
[14:11:37] <@Squarepusher> anyway guys - it's you that need to speak out against this crap if you think it's wrong
[14:11:42] <@Squarepusher> I can only do so much
[14:11:46] <@Squarepusher> but if nobody gives a shit
[14:12:05] <@Squarepusher> same thing with the Hyperkin thing - I try to organize something but nobody wants to do shit
[14:12:14] <@Squarepusher> so why do I just need to jump on the hand grenade for everybody else?
[14:15:52] <Oggom> Thing is, there's not much that can be done here. Telling him he's a greedy fuck won't stop him from anything.
[14:16:21] <@Squarepusher> evil prevails because good people do nothing
[14:16:31] <@Squarepusher> and evil people have taken a wrong turn somewhere
[14:16:37] <@Squarepusher> and could possibly be brought back to the right path
[14:16:54] <@Squarepusher> so talking about it is never a waste of time
[14:17:11] <Oggom> Or people just grow a brain and stop throwing money at anything. Let idiots be idiots
[14:18:16] <Oggom> broglia would've never gotten anywhere if the Android crowd wouldn't be a crowd full of mindless consumer zombies
[14:18:40] <@Squarepusher> the point is by people remaining quiet
[14:18:43] <@Squarepusher> you acquiesce to it
[14:18:57] <@Squarepusher> not saying anything about it is giving your tacid approval to it
[14:26:21] <sae> Squarepusher: what are we talking about? :o
[14:26:53] <sae> like, exactly, I got some vague idea, but I prefer to have more of the whole picture before expressing my mind
[14:26:58] <AFKaro> his usual hate for money+emulation
[14:27:01] * AFKaro is now known as Alcaro
[14:27:21] <Alcaro> this time it's about Dolphin
[14:27:34] <Enverex> I thought it was about Citra?
[14:27:51] <Alcaro> maybe it's multiple.
[14:27:57] <@Squarepusher> Citra
[14:27:58] <sae> What is dolphin doing?
[14:29:28] * jeapostrophe (~jay@pool-17