Marth training notes

vids

Marth trials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IACW5mltqY

www.tinyurl.com/meleelibrary

ledge guards with marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s63pPeyWasw

Ken tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFCQIAnYUMM

basic ken tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmcfXVQvE9E

The Moon tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-dqZ93qG44

chaingrab breakdown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnDRxZiTP-M

PewPewU
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeYF2Hikh9LhQAZhrcXGNUg/videos

http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano%E2%80%99s-perfect-marth-class%E2%80%94advanced-frame-data-application.337035/

comprehensive marth info
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit

M2K's marth thing of beauty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ZHTA0LJdw

M2K combo video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wE0q5Npa44

Sora combo video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaWndFf95v8#t=37

M2K combo vid, one of a kind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFl5GPvcVnM

Mango Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpIUis8WgM8

Marth vs Sheik Guide
http://www.meleeitonme.com/guest-article-marth-vs-sheik-guide/

The 20XX Counter (combo video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNBrdKi5uk

Marth edgeguard fox basics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03V9XLEb-4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAFCpnPx9A

dsmash setups
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SysQNflZeas

http://www.meleeitonme.com/sharpening-your-sword-tais-marth-guide/

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit

marth matchup playlists
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheShoesYoureWearing/playlists

Marth matchup guides
http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-matchup-guides.341532/

Mew2king Losers run UGC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwswi0gEQX0



_____Things I need to work on or learn with marth_____
______________________________________________

_Shit I basically have down:_

JC Grabs

Pivot JC grab

Wavedashes and smashes

edgehop dair

Dair in general

sweet spotting

wavedash back grab ledge

dash dance across the stage

shffl fair or double sh fair across the stage

up tilt dair facing away from the edge (up air from ledge onto the stage at low% leads into this)

Dairs at low percent to force knockdowns, at high percents as a launcher

Drop off ledge into bair as ledgeguard

jump at ledge, bair, ledgegrab

fthrow followup into fair or dair

_shit that I can sorta do but needs work_

edgehop dair

reverse dolphin slash

jump through platform, waveland, uptilt

first hit of dancing blade as an anti-air or launcher into fsmash (might only work on higher percentage/lighter opponents, probably )

Ken combo

Pivot Fsmash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IACW5mltqY

uthrow followup into dair

shorthop fair waveland fsmash

Shffl Uair

Instead of ending a string with fair, end with uair if can't be followed up, so 2 fairs into uair

Backthrow into dair

Down air to sweet spot up B on a grounded opponent before the percentages where knockback is induced

hit opponents with Uair when they've lost their jump

ledgedrop bair as a ledgeguard

on jiggs, prioritize DI trap with grabs into fsmash

Fair into reverse bair can keep opponents close at higher percentages or against good DI, also turns around to make spike easier

If someone is coming up to the ledge from below while I'm holding it, drop and side B them, optionally sour spot fair them afterwards, especially if they're not a fast faller

Dthrow, run off, rising dair

Close to the ledge, facing away from it (like ~30-40% starting), Up throw, up tilt, spike

WD back, dash forwards, "The Pause"

"An alternate method of juking was during a dash dance, while dashing away, wavedash backwards toward the opponent, then dash away and stall, then straight dash toward them and grab. It looks like you teleport grab because of how quick it can be." -cactaur

shorthop dair as a ledgeguard

For laggy recoveries, ledgehop dair, L cancel, spike, better versus lighter characters

deep edgehop bair to get people with laggy recoveries offstage too, better versus heavier characters

non-tipper fair to punish good combo DI, sending them offstage, up air after X fairs to continue combo if at low percentages and combo DI is expected.

Fair into up tilt at like ~46%

Fthrow chaingrab spacies below 7%, before tumble hitstun

ledgedrop, side B, recover, fucks up their recovery a bit, especially good for spacies.

Edgehog, roll, reverse dolphin to ledgeguard

haxdash

_shit I don't remotely have down_

ledgetech

drop off the side of the stage, reverse dolphin recover as ledgeguard

low off-stage sweet spot fair into reverse dolphin

low offstage side b into fair or sweet spot up B

low up B to punish samus tether

fthrow near ledge into dtilt

Ken Combo vs PAL combo as DI trap. If they DI out, they're dead to reverse up B, DI in, ken combo

shorthop dair can hit people trying to plank the ledge

high percentage ledge hop up air into spike.

not jumping until the end while recovering

back throw, reverse up B, do it at kill %

fthrow into nair

the very backside of the up B can be used to hit offstage for a high recovering opponent from the ledge

ledge drop, sourspot fair, then up B to grab the ledge

at ~137% on spacies, back throw, 2 hits of dancing blade, grab

at ~71%, up air to fsmash through a platform, landing on it before the fsmash

fair into Dtilt pushing people off the ledge

edgecancel fair jump into dair

Fthrow near ledge, if they DI in, jump and dair

When facing the ledge while holding someone, pummel and let them mash out, lower angle than Fthrow

Ftilt versus ledge jumping opponents, spaced so I'm a full fsmash length on the stage

ledge attack when opponent would just barely recover to push them to their death.

shffl fair on shield, dash through, pivot grab

totally correct L cancel timing

When Fthrown by marth under 7%, DD away then back to counter grab.

tipper dash attack into up tilt

run off stage, reverse dolphin as a ledgeguard

Drop zone, jump, dair

On Falcon: Uthrow -> tipper connects at around 50-60-ish and is a pretty good option. Going for a fair/uair combo starter instead will usually yield similar results so you once again have a decent amount of freedom.

when they're low below the stage, fair, reverse upB

jab to cover huge spaces quickly as a ledgeguard

Weak hit bair

up throw Fsmash

fthrow drop zone

The M2K combo, sweetspot fair, reverse dolphin slash

Fthrow into reverse dolphin

Swag spike

shffl uair up tilt, good option coverage versus playforms, doesn't combo usually, except when launching from the ground on higher gravity characters

edgehop down B counter versus onstage ledgeguards

3rd hit downwards of dancing blade to break crouch cancels

up air up tilt on spacies close to the ground

dash attack after up tilt from the up throw chain grab, can scoop up people that get dropped

dash grab after dtilt

on fox/falco, at around 65-79% close to the ground shffl tipper up air will guaranteed combo into tipper fsmash

crouch cancel grab

jab side B illusions like always

back throw to reverse up B at high percent to kill spacies dead

versus fast fallers at low percents close to the stage, weak hit fair offstage, drop to reverse dolphin slash to grab ledge

weak hit fair on spacies into reverse dolphin slash

weak uair launch on spacies to reverse dolphin (from ledgehop)

dtilt after fthrow

tree grab, run, crouch cancel, dash back, grab, allows for crossup grabbing, better than crossup fsmash

not jumping out of hitstun, hanging onto the jump

to avoid low percent Fthrow chaingrab, DI away and buffer a spot dodge

low shffl Fair to catch people who sweetspot the ledge

dsmash covers both regular getups and rolls, tippers both


Up throw, bair to fair works with weak hit bair and assuming there is enough hitstun to link to fair, or at least to frametrap them

reverse up B to punish no tech, or in situations where fsmash isn't fast enough

short hop, reactively swing fair as they come into range, best way to annoy someone who expects a certain fair timing

Against Fox & Falco, from 35%-80%* if you up throw near the ledge and they DI off the stage you can get a full hop Dair or DJ Dair. Normally the common punish is Fsmash but people expect that and with good DI they will live. Try it out for yourselves.


SH fair into uair launches on floaties

If whispy is blowing marth off stage while holding someone, down throw and fthrow to fsmash setups are more effective.


Your question would basically have me talk about comboing for quite a while, so I'll answer by talking about what works for me for now. I typically combo with Fairs almost solely on momentum and % because people tend to not switch up their DI too much on Marth combos. They usually do so very early or very late from what I've noticed. This is actually kind of adaptive, as I've personally played around with different DI when being comboed by Marth and it seems not to help if I keep switching(possibly for momentum-stacking reasons but I'm probably wrong about that lol.)

What this means for Marth is that he should make a decision pretty early on about whether he wants to combo a while or not. If he wants to end it early, then move towards the edge with Fairs(probably untippered) or simply Fsmash. Both of these are great at punishing away DI. If you want to wreck inwards DI, then start Fair chaining(with some Uairs sometimes because lol[depending on MU]) and you'll get some off before MOST people adapt and that'll depend on you in part too with how quickly you swing etc etc since combo pacing could also technically influence how quickly they want to change their DI. Always assume you have control of the combo, that's a pretty solid rule to have(and with Marth especially, it's empowering....and right.)





http://imgur.com/a/QYBbX

Optimal spawn list:

Yoshi's: P4 best, avoid P3

FoD: P3 Best, avoid P4

Stadium: P4 or P3 acceptable, avoid P2+P3 and P1+P4

Battlefield: P1 best, avoid P2

dreamland: P1 Best, avoid P3

FD: P3 or P4 acceptable



_WD out of shield_

release the digital button and click it in again. Light shield doesn't work in the air


_Grabs_

Up throws lead into the best punishes at high percentages or low far from the edge, lead into up air or up tilt

Fthrow versus idiots who can't DI or at low percent into fsmash.

near the edge go with the throw that leads into edge guard.


_approaches versus sheik_

focus on dash dancing, down tilts, and grabs, remember can't crouch from initial dash.

if they're determined to needle camp, dodge and move in a bit, close enough that can punish needles if they try it again, but not so close as to sacrifice spacing advantage


_Neutral theory_

Rely on dash dances, wavedash, dtilt, grab. STOP USING SO MUCH GODDAMN FSMASH UNLESS YOU'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE IT LEADS TO AN EDGEGUARD OR KILL.

To beat jumpins, predict them, nair or fair in place.


_Edgeguard set play on fox/flaco_

Above the stage (general theory is cover one option, react to the others)
if they up B immediately close to the ledge, jump out, sour spot fair or shield breaker

If fox fire foxes directly at marth, fair that motherfucker
If he goes up instead, up air, up tilt, or wd back fsmash
If he goes down to the ledge, marth can cover with fair up close or just go for the usual edge game

for side B, just jab or WD back fsmash

Dtilt once to cover the low angle ledge, but then double back if they go high

Below the stage

anything horizontal to the stage, just jab, at higher percentages, dtilt illusions to the ledge

after the jab, move up to the ledge and counter

double fair when they have no space to whiff punish it

Fox far out below stage, fair him or bair him

fox beneath the stage, walk forward, counter=




______Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox____

Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper




sheik neutral

    Dtilt makes it harder for Sheik to stay grounded and can lead to a grab sometimes.
    Wavedashing, walking and dashdancing are all used for regular spacing purposes.
    Dashdancing covers much more space than the other two, but it makes you unable to dtilt (unless you can pivot dtilt, which is extremely difficult to do consistently), which makes it more difficult to challenge Sheik.
    Walking is slower, but lets you do any move you want at any time, so it's a lot more versatile than dashdancing.
    Wavedashing lets you cover space faster than walking does, and leaves you with more options than dashdancing does, so it's a bit of a multi-purpose move. WD down -> dtilt is great because you can do it out of a dashdance and it's almost as fast as a pivot dtilt. WD back -> grab is a cookie cutter punish against predictable/poorly timed approaches (generally dash attack in Sheik's case).





Hm, other than what was already mentioned, I'd say some important tech to learn:

1. quick uairs. this is vital. get a handicapped bowser to the top platform of yoshis and perform uairs. make sure they hit every time or you are going late.
2. utilt and uair transition. handicapped bowser again but on the lower platforms, but use different stages so you understand timings. test yourself on stadium, battlefield, yoshis, and dreamland (constant uairs here). alternate utilt and uair in various patterns to make it so that Bowser is basically always in hitstun.
3. shield drop aerial walls. run, shield drop, double jump, aerials (double fair, fair->uair etc). Generally work on shield drops. Shield dropped wavelands, shield drop->normal land->shffl (or EMPTY hop, amazing mindgame), etc.
4. Run-off fastfalls on platforms. Make sure you can run off a platform and fastfall 100% of the time. After you get that, mix in an aerial, a double jumped aerial, a waveland, or whatever you want. Never forget to do mixups after a normal land too; just land after a run-off and then try to do things (say, a shffl) immediately after landing lag.
5. tilt transition timings. Use tilts as transitions during your SHFFLs and ground attacks. SHFFL something and tilt as fast as you can. especially important for utilt.
6. dtilt IASA mastery. dtilt, hold for walk to trigger IASA, and then transition into whatever you want (wavedash, another dtilt, aerials, whatever).
7. learn to dash after everything. helps in the fox matchup. use and aerial? dash. ftilt? dash. land on a platform? dash.
8. dash cancelling with crouch. learn the extent of marths dashdance (its LONG) and when you have to crouch to cancel momentum. the use the crouch to do various mixups. dash up to the opponent, crouch, dash forward, pivot grab (grab them from behind). Lots of uses for this one; can help you become a lot faster.
9. wavelands on platforms. just practice various sized wavelands (not just super long and in place, every size) on all stages. Make sure you can make waveland loops; like, waveland on platform, run-off fastfall off, waveland backwards, jump, waveland back on platform. and then add aerials in there lol. watch some spaceballs samus vids to see how cool this can be...waveland platform approaches are legit; work them into your game.
10. ledge wavelands. waveland forward; waveland in place (RIGHT next to the ledge); waveland back (for bait), fastfall, jump, aerial; waveland back, double jump, land on low platform, etc.
11. ledge aerials. These are obvious but its important to make sure you get them out as fast as possible. make sure you can make the first hit of the ledgehop nair come out when you are parallel with the stage (don't be ON the stage by the time its out). get your uairs, dairs, and fairs off ledge fast too. be able to float back dair (so that you have to up-B) and survive; this is fantastic vs. Peach (a normal ledgehop dair doesn't reach sometimes). ledgehop dair firefoxing CPUs to get the timing right.
12. empty hop follow ups. empty hop in range of your fair (this is generally when you want to empty hop), fastfall, and follow with tomahawk grab, dash back pivot fsmash (if you are pro), waveland (very little utility), etc.
13. oos options. This is really hard to practice on your own but try your best. hold shield and use a shield option. maybe use a computer to hit you with something and dair it or something. this is best learned in matches. getting a friend to laser you so you can wd oos through laser pressure (shortened wavedashes) is vital. also approach with shield (like dash->shield or wd->shield) and quick oos option...great v. Puff (oos fair rapes after a bair). shield drop oos on platforms after hitstun is pretty cool if you can learn it.
14. quickness off wavedashes. wavedash forward, pivot, dair. things like that...make sure there is no stall time after your wavedash. be precise with that **** too...make enemy targets at weird distances and see if you can hit with the tipper dair every time.
15. as ppl said, practice chaingrabbing. use training mode's "escape" CPU setting to work on different DIs. lvl 4 CPUs also DI relatively OK. include odd chaingrabs (fthrow on falco early percent), chains on platforms (if they DI away from you on the edge of the platform, FF uair runoff and regrab -- TRUST ME on the this, like no marths do it), and if you have a friend, techchase follows. try not to pummel (ever), so you have greater % coverage in practice....also, pummeling at low % is a bad habit in general. dthrow dtilt traps (dthrow, dtilt, pivot grab when near the edge), edgeguard traps (dthrow, wd off, fair, up-b), etc. Make sure to follow up with an edgeguard offstage to finish all combos. don't get a habit of standing on stage and countering/fsmashing.
16. shield to stop momentum before aerials. Something I am trying to get used to. Basically shield right before you jump so you go straight up. Great for uair chains (a lot of times your momentum sends you past your opponent when you don't do this and therefore makes it really hard for follow up).
17. Pivot aerial walls. another thing that i have been trying to add. basically make standard marth aerial walls (double fair, fair dj double fair, autocancel nair, etc), dash back or forward quick, and remake wall. try different distances and make it fast. with shielding, the wall stays stand-still. should be great v. Puff.
18. pivot fsmashes. watch AustinRC vids if you don't think this is useful. Get the spacing to it down in various situations. Tipper it every time (remember, you really only want to do it on stationary targets; so after you bait a shield with an empty hop or a sidestep with dashdance, etc). work on pivots in general but this one is great.
19. uair routines on different stages. This one is a bit hard to explain but watch a lot of M2K vids when his opponent is on the top platform and its easier to understand. Basically work on floating between the two lower platforms to uair the top one and then dj to hit it again. Different methods are required for different stages, but make sure you can trap someone on the top platform as easily as you can on the lower platforms.
20. That crazy Taj movement ****. I have no idea how he does it so don't ask me. Its some reverse stickywalk moonwalk wavedash shenanigans that i don't even understand the hand movements for. it looks mad sexy tho.
21. Quick methods to grab the ledge. Get goooood at this. Very important. run, crouch, dd pivot, wavedash, fastfall, grab ledge, do ledgehop aerial is a good routine. you can do a similar routine with autocanceled nairs added in (M2K does this in the lolmaster friendlies somewhere). make sure you are good at grabbing the ledge crazy quick after aerials, grabs, etc. fthrow a sheik at mid percent and do the quick DD ledgegrab before she can jump to grab ledge...this is MAD good in matches. practice PCing too I guess (using Marths walk and then pivoting near ledge) but thats usually worse than just using bair as a turnaround or this DD FF method. If you are crazy good you can practice pivot runoff fastfalls off dashes but I can only do those 10% of the time; I don't think they are humanly possible tbh. They'd be beastly to continue platform combos if they were :/



Combo theory for floaties:

Starters: Rising fair into double fair, shffl fair, falling or shffl uair, tipper dash attack, tipper utilt, grab, landing dair at high %, weak hit bair in the air, side B, nair from ledge, or against opponents in open air.

Uair only combos on landing, otherwise the recovery is too long.

jumping forward then fairing when in range or as landing can bait things out and start a combo

test DI trap into up tilt

In general against the ground it makes sense at lower percentages to pop them up into an up tilt or grab if close enough, or Uair.

at mid percentages, go for shffl fair after the pop up from up tilt.

Don't get them to high percentages


Evilagram: hey, what options would you say marth has off dthrow on floaties?
xX_J3RRY_$31nF31D_Xx: pivot fsmash
xX_J3RRY_$31nF31D_Xx: nair
xX_J3RRY_$31nF31D_Xx: fair
xX_J3RRY_$31nF31D_Xx: dtilt


If I can get a grab, then I can fthrow chain grab them once or twice, then I should up throw, by that point they're probably DI-ing correctly, so it will lead them offstage, Dthrow is also acceptable. If they're at 50% or so, pivot fsmash will work, leading to a full edgeguard scenario.

Fair chains, just gotta practice them, and find out what leads into them. Double fair will lead to fair chain, so will tipper dash attack with certain percentages and DIs.