lold2m

Prior to any provisional standings being released the following is the only info 21grams ( previosly sektor ) had gathered regarding there placements for season 7

D2M: (Site Admin) - vertex said:

January 15th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

Div2: Special Attack beat hb0da, who folded and could not play a play-off. Leaving 5 teams. Unfortunately this meant that one of the teams would have a bye as their play-off match would be against a team who would be unable to play it. The team that was drawn was Sektor. All of the play-off games were drawn randomly where 3 or more teams were involved.



The day the provisional season 7 were released:

[03:56] <@D2M> div 1-3 are here: http://etf2l.org/season-7/provisional-divisions/
[03:56] <@D2M> :]
[03:56] <sweiny> cool
[03:57] * NyStats9rpeX ([email protected]) has left #etf2l
[03:57] <@D2M> 4-6 are still being checked as a number of teams have dropped to 3-4 players
[03:57] <@D2M> and not bothered to say anything
[03:57] <cMw> wow
[03:57] <cMw> team stinson not div3 ?
[03:57] <cMw> d2m really?
[03:58] <@D2M> they're first on my list of teams to move, should one of the teams have folded (which i think they have)
[03:58] <@D2M> i need to confirm it
[03:58] <cMw> come on man
[03:58] <cMw> u put 8DOM8
[03:58] <cMw> in over them?
[03:58] <@D2M> this is not the place for arguments
[03:58] <cMw> and vtroopers
[03:58] <cMw> who they beat regularly?
[03:58] <cMw> killin me man
[03:59] <cMw> easily div3 team
[03:59] <cMw> waste of time for them in div4 if thats where they end up playing
[03:59] * helm ([email protected]) has joined #etf2l
[03:59] * Molinet_ ([email protected]) has joined #etf2l
[04:00] <@D2M> as are pod in div2, but i don't have a reason to move them :]
[04:00] * `phiL is now known as `phiL|off
[04:00] <@D2M> anyway, less moaning, more happy ty
[04:01] <cMw> well
[04:01] <cMw> i am friends with many people on that team
[04:01] <cMw> and btw
[04:01] <cMw> wildcard
[04:01] <cMw> will rage u
[04:01] <cMw> for 21grams div3
[04:01] <@D2M> that's where they finished last season
[04:01] <cMw> most points in div3 last season
[04:01] <@D2M> they lost 2 players
[04:01] <@D2M> they didn't gain promotion
[04:01] <cMw> im not disagreeing
[04:01] <@D2M> next question
[04:01] <cMw> with ur decision
[04:01] <cMw> i agree with it m8
[04:01] <cMw> im saying
[04:01] <@D2M> :D
[04:01] <cMw> he will rage at it
[04:01] <@D2M> well he can fire away
[04:01] <cMw> 15.09.25 � (WildCard) we better go div2
[04:01] <cMw> 15.09.31 � (WildCard) sinec finished 2nd in etf2l last season
[04:01] <cMw> 15.09.37 � (WildCard) with more points thanany other team who did
[04:02] <cornhulio-basH> nice d2m ....thanks for the tables+
[04:02] <@D2M> 4-6 coming asap
[04:02] <@D2M> so many teams to check
[04:02] <cornhulio-basH> not necessary
[04:02] <@D2M> they are dicks for not telling us they're dropping/have no players left after signing up
[04:02] <@D2M> but meh, can't expect 2000+ people to be polite :p
[04:03] <cMw> will have more wine
[04:03] <cMw> once i look at rest of div3 teams
[04:03] <cMw> brb

Also just for the record in later conversations you will see that one of the primary reasons is because of the so called "hyjac rule" which apaprently is if a team only has 40% of its original roster stops them replacing all there lineup and retaining there spot (somthing we was never made aware of). Since D2m even said above they have lost "2 players" how on earth could the hyjack rule apply since losing 2 players does not mean we would be left with 40% or less of the original roster.

My conversation afterwards with D2M

[04:30] <WildCard> cmw is correct I am pissed :), so why are 21gram in div3 again after finishing 2nd last season, yet teams like empathy,blame etc who finished 3rd get promoted
[04:31] <WildCard> as i wasnt aware you are not allowed to change lineup preseason, yes some players have left but we will still have a full lineup for season 7 with 3 original members
[04:35] <WildCard> you have cbullets promoted a div up from what they was without 6 players on roster, after winning there div yet sektor who came 2nd dont get a playoff game or promoted while other teams did, seems extremley unfair :)
[04:36] <D2M> save it for tomorrow, we're sorting 4-6 atm
[04:36] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> they are dicks for not telling us they're dropping/have no players left after signing up
[04:36] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> but meh, can't expect 2000+ people to be polite :p
[04:37] <WildCard> because were not droping, have 6 in roster and trialing ppl to replace those who are not playing actively, which was mentioned to an admin about 5 days ago when had leadership passsed to me
[04:38] <D2M> catching bullets were promoted for finishing first last season. teams with 5 players are being given till sunday to sort themselves out, otherwise they get replaced. i'm very busy sorting 4-6 out at the moment with another admin. any queries can be made through the correct channels, which will be made clear in the news post when we're finished
[04:38] <D2M> thanks for your understanding

[11:31] <WildCard> I dont "understand" at all, Ive emailed you the details explaining why I think its unfair you let other teams move up who were and are in a worse position roster wise than us and I fail to see how you will be able to justify the decission especially when have clans reformed like carp diem but still decide that they can be promoted even after doing worse than us and having a brand new lineup.
[11:33] <WildCard> Not only is it once again I may add ruining my season seems to a trend with etf2l after previous events, but will kill the team after having spent the last few weeks trialing for a DIV2 place which we earned  I highly doubt those players are going to be interested in playing in div3. So yes as cmw said i am going to fucking rage  :) so please fix it.
[14:45] <D2M> the problem you have is that every example you're using is flawed WildCard :) Carpe Diem finished 3rd in Div2 last season. They earnt the right to stay in that division.
[14:45] <D2M> Now, if you don't want to go into Division 3, you can go on the waiting list for Division 2
[14:45] <D2M> but it would mean you would miss out on s7 altogether if no teams drop in the first 3 weeks
[14:48] <WildCard> northwave lsot there playoff game
[14:48] <WildCard> yet there promoted
[14:49] <WildCard> every other admin so far i or someone on the team has spoken to wonders why we are not in div2 and can understand are frustration, racio even just said to psyche he thinks it primarily because of the name change lol
[14:49] <WildCard> how is my argument flawed sektor now 21 g finished 2nd in the last aseason
[14:49] <WildCard> did they not earn the right to be in div2 lol
[14:50] <WildCard> I think my arguments are fine :)
[14:51] <D2M> really because every admin active last night agreed that you were not div2 standard
[14:51] <D2M> so either you're lying or they're lying
[14:51] <D2M> and let's be honest - i trust them a hell of a lot more than a ragey little man
[14:51] <WildCard> lol
[14:51] <WildCard> and which admins were these then
[14:52] <WildCard> and lets not degenerate this into personal insults please makes you look stupid.
[14:52] <WildCard> as im simply trying to sort out the teams spot next season :)
[14:52] <D2M> there are no personal insults
[14:52] <WildCard> ragey little man :P
[14:52] <D2M> in my belief that statement is correct, based on things i have read and advice i have been given
[14:52] <WildCard> if sektor finish 2nd in ther division
[14:53] <WildCard> how can the statemnt we are not capable of playing in div2 be true
[14:53] <WildCard> yet otherteams who finish 3rd you give
[14:53] <D2M> -14:53:32- (@RaCio) I didnt
[14:53] <D2M> -14:53:52- (@RaCio) I told them that they changed their lineup and name
[14:53] <WildCard> or teams who even lose there playoff game get promoted
[14:54] <WildCard> when i was speaking to anroflif he said he was speaking to baerbel and he agreed that compared to some teams like northwave we are far better
[14:54] <WildCard> fact we even beat teams like emapthy in officals recently in cups
[14:54] <WildCard> and blame northwave etc
[14:54] <WildCard> proves that
[14:55] <WildCard> and in the end like I said the team earned the right to be in div2 by placing 2nd last season
[14:56] <D2M> there is no automatic promotion spot from 2nd place
[14:56] <D2M> so you didn't earn anything :)
[14:56] <WildCard> oh and there is for finishing 3rd :)
[14:56] <WildCard> yet other teams who finished 2nd in div3 got a play off game
[14:56] <WildCard> and we didnt
[14:56] <D2M> if the admins believe they belong in division 2 yep
[14:56] <WildCard> why is that
[14:57] <D2M> you know, if you don't listen to much of what we say, we're less likely to help you right?
[14:57] <D2M> just read your email you sent me earlier, and i answered 75% of that in 3 messages last night
[14:58] <WildCard> Then what is the point in a team playing in etf2l season in an attempt to win and get promoted if in the end admins can simply say "tough your not moving division we dont think your good enough" even if they proved they are by there placing last season
[15:00] <D2M> 2nd place is nice, but 1st is automatic promotion. Your lineup has changed, your team has changed, and as such we did not put you into Division 2. There was no playoff game originally because before whatever crap went on in your team, we felt you were the strongest of the play-off teams and were considering automatic promotion to Division 2.
[15:00] <D2M> Since your team lost players and you no longer have the same lineup that we were considering for the above, we came to a new decision.
[15:00] <D2M> I'm not going to debate this in irc all day btw, I have a business to run
[15:01] <WildCard> yeh so do I so I dont enjoy wasting my time either :)
[15:02] <WildCard> and like I said before who are these admins who said we are not good enough, because for 1 how do they even know what are new lineup would be without even consulting me first. Or simply guessing.
[15:03] <D2M> I'm not giving you any information which I deem to be unnecessary. You're welcome to harrass me all you like, but the others don't need to read it.
[15:19] <D2M> [04:02] <@D2M> they are dicks for not telling us they're dropping/have no players left after signing up
[15:19] <D2M> fyi
[15:20] <D2M> that was in reference to any team we were looking at yesterday that had less than 5 on their roster
[15:20] <D2M> had nothing to do with you.
[15:20] <D2M> seems that half of your long pastebin, you and skatcher have the wrong idea about a lot of things. and it doesn't help that you tried to have a serious conversation with a french admin
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:01] <cMw> 15.09.25 � (WildCard) we better go div2
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:01] <cMw> 15.09.31 � (WildCard) sinec finished 2nd in etf2l last season
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:01] <cMw> 15.09.37 � (WildCard) with more points thanany other team who did
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <cornhulio-basH> nice d2m ....thanks for the tables+
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> 4-6 coming asap
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> so many teams to check
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <cornhulio-basH> not necessary
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> they are dicks for not telling us they're dropping/have no players left after signing up
[15:22] <WildCard> [04:02] <@D2M> but meh, can't expect 2000+ people to be polite :p
[15:22] <D2M> yes
[15:22] <WildCard> given the context of the conversation i dont believe you but w/e :)
[15:22] <D2M> it was in reference to the discussion about teams we were checking
[15:22] <D2M> oh seriously?
[15:22] <D2M> it was 4am
[15:22] <D2M> i was discussing teams who had fuck all players on their roster
[15:23] <D2M> grow the fuck up if you think i'd care enough to call your team dicks in a public channel
[15:23] <D2M> i don't hate you or care enough to do that

Just like to point out he started with the insults first as you can read later on, when D2M complains he felt we was insulting his inteligence, well im glad you felt that was the case because I was since the decission you made was that flawed. And yes I was being rarther agressive with my questioning but would of thought thats also to be expected at 4am with news we had just recieved

Skatcher conversation 2 days afterwards

16:15 - skatcher tf2pt.com: [15:53] <skatcher> hey
[15:54] <D2M> hello
[15:54] <skatcher> before i try to convince you to give us a div2 slot i'd just like to know if
you ve checked on monster munch's status
[15:54] <skatcher> i was told thhey were inactive
[15:54] <skatcher> not having a demoman and all that
[15:55] <skatcher> also, seems nwave just lost 2 of their key players to rockit
[15:55] <D2M> we did indeed speak to them at 2am on monday morning and tsu decided he wanted to
play and would lead the team, vlad forced him too
[15:55] <D2M> and i saw re: nwave
[15:55] <D2M> with regards to convincing, if a spot is available we can consider you for it.
currently there are no division 2 spots available
[15:55] <D2M> and that's as far as we're gonna get
[15:56] <D2M> so you can either be like wildcard and paste the same thing over and over and we go
round in circles
[15:56] <D2M> which neither of us will enjoy tbh
[15:56] <skatcher> you honestly belive blame and nwave are more deserving of div2 than sektor?
[15:56] <D2M> or you can understand that we have you waiting for a spot in div2, and when one is
available we'll consider it
[15:56] <D2M> i'll let you decide now
[15:57] <skatcher> well, the thing here is, according to the rules that were announced on one of
your newsposts, we are entitled to that spot by virtue of finishing 2nd, and getting a bye on our
playoff game. The argument, really, should end there
[15:58] <skatcher> i have however, realized that you have no intent to listen to our reasoning,
which i might add, has been quite civil...but that's your decision
16:15 - skatcher tf2pt.com: [15:59] <skatcher> just seems unfair, and unreasonable
[16:00] <D2M> The bottom line is that there are no automatic promotion spots for 2nd place in
Division 3. We considered putting your team directly into Division 2, and that would have
occurred had your lineup not changed drastically and breached our 40% rule. Therefore we
reconsidered and the general consensus was that it was felt the changes did not make the team
worthy of a place in Division 2.
[16:01] <D2M> So we have you at the top of the waiting list for a spot, we have all the
information at hand for your Division 2 request, and we will consider it very seriously when a
spot becomes available.
[16:01] <skatcher> well, they re not automatic, they re thru playoff, but as you said so
yourself, we won our playoff cause of the div2 folds.
[16:01] <D2M> Just a tip though, harrassment of some of the admins as I've already seen will not
be tolerated. If you guys want to whinge at someone, you can do it to Kop, Racio or myself.
[16:02] <skatcher> as for the 40% rule, the lineup isnt even finalized, and the only 2 ppl that left were side and jimmis
[16:02] <D2M> I've told you how things stand at the moment, nothing will change unless a spot is
available in Division 2
[16:02] <skatcher> wt admin harassment?
[16:02] <D2M> i appreciate your comments though
[16:02] <skatcher> hopefully everything pans out and everyone wins, but what you re doing with
this, is absolute bs :/
[16:03] <D2M> you're perfectly entitled to your opinion
[16:03] <skatcher> indeed
[16:03] <D2M> and you're also welcome to behave like wildcard and believe that we all hate you
16:17 - skatcher tf2pt.com: [16:03] <D2M> but we don't, and you should know that
[16:04] <skatcher> well, the lack of rational reasoning in your arguments kinda suggests other
reasons, thats the only way i could see that,  but its pointless to even delve in to that
[16:04] <skatcher> get someone to take a look at nwave
[16:05] <skatcher> they lost their main scout and a soldier to rockit
[16:05] <D2M> when i spoke to them yesterday they seemed confident in their ability to replace
their 2 lost members
[16:05] <D2M> we'll see how that goes
[16:05] <skatcher> so, they have the right to replace 2 members we dont?
[16:06] <skatcher> we re also confident in our ability to replace our 2 lost members
[16:06] <skatcher> in fact, we have replacements lined up, with the intent of playing in div2
[16:07] <skatcher> look, i dont mean to drag this on and on, but if you re gonna have different
measures for different teams....
[16:07] <D2M> That's great! :) Well hopefully you can find some great players who will help you
in Division 2, should a spot become available
[16:07] <skatcher> lol
[16:07] <D2M> We can go round in circles all day if you like
[16:07] <skatcher> you re not even going in circles
[16:07] <skatcher> you re just avoiding everything
[16:07] <skatcher> kinda pathetic tbh
[16:07] <D2M> Insulting me doesn't actually help
[16:08] <skatcher> i feel like my intelligence is being insulted all throughout this
conversation, so consider us even
[16:08] <skatcher> at least make an argument...
[16:08] <skatcher> honestly
[16:09] <skatcher> just repeating over and over that you re not gonna give us the spot, but then
let other teams in the same circumstances as us take it...
[16:09] <skatcher> wow
[16:09] <skatcher> wt is it gonna take? screenshots of us beating those teams
[16:09] <D2M> I felt like my intelligence was insulted yesterday when I read through the pastebin
logs that Wildcard sent to Baerbel
[16:09] <skatcher> cause we can arrange that
16:18 - skatcher tf2pt.com: [16:09] <D2M> containg logs of your conversations with him about
etf2l, the other admins and comments made about myself
[16:10] <skatcher> well, wt is between you and wildcard doesnt really concern me... he could ve
been clearer, but your unwillingness to provide explanations didnt help
[16:10] <D2M> You're a player I respect a lot, and I don't want that to be changed by mindless
comments from individuals that are angry
[16:10] <D2M> It's nothing between me and Wildcard. I don't know/care/like/hate him.
[16:11] <D2M> I'm just saying, what I saw the both of you write was not pleasant and could have
been considered deeply offensive.
[16:11] <skatcher> can i get a yes or no answer on something? do you belive that nwave or blame
are a better team than sektor is was
[16:11] <skatcher> is/was*
[16:11] <skatcher> cause it boils down to that
[16:11] <skatcher> it's that simple
[16:11] <skatcher> and if you take a look at concrete results, it's also quite obvious
[16:12] <D2M> Whatever I say, you're going to pick holes in it
[16:12] <skatcher> ?
[16:12] <skatcher> wt do you mean?
[16:12] <D2M> If my belief lay with nwave & blame, you'd attempt to send me screenshots and say
we're better here etc
[16:12] <D2M> If i was to say Sektor, then you'd go crazy and say why aren't we in
[16:13] <D2M> I believe the teams are pretty equal, however I believe that Blame are more stable
and Nwave were (before they lost 2 players yesterday)
[16:13] <skatcher> im just trying to make the point that your argument that the admin team felt
those 2 teams were stronger than sektor, is false
16:18 - skatcher tf2pt.com: [16:14] <D2M> It's not false if that's the decision that was made by a group of admins
[16:14] <skatcher> as for stability, blame has been juggling medics all season, got a new demo
about a month ago, brand new pair of scouts
[16:14] <D2M> I can't falsify the truth :)
[16:14] <D2M> Now you can believe that a decision was incorrect, but you cannot define it as false
[16:14] <skatcher> look, your admins can say all they want that cantfitmyn is a better team than
dignitas, that doesnt make it true
[16:15] <skatcher> thats an extreme example, but its exacly the same situation
[16:15] <D2M> lol, nice example
[16:16] <skatcher> is it not the same situation?
[16:16] <D2M> Err no, because cantfitmyn haven't played in the same division
[16:16] <D2M> so quite obviously not
[16:16] <skatcher> you have a panel of admins judging the skill of 2 teams, they probly know very
little about, their decision doesnt define the actual truth
[16:16] <D2M> it was a nonsense example
[16:17] <skatcher> its an extreme example, but its exacly the same case
[16:17] <D2M> It has absolutely nothing in common apart from both the teams play TF2
[16:17] <D2M> brb smoke
[16:17] <skatcher> the argument you re making is that your admin's decision, makes it so that
blame and nwave are in fact stronger than us, which is not true


16:18 - skatcher tf2pt.com: they re gonna let nwave replace 2 players, but not us
16:18 - skatcher tf2pt.com: ...
16:20 - �� | WildCard: as i said before
16:20 - �� | WildCard: how do they know our lineup breached the 40% rule
16:20 - �� | WildCard: and if so why didnt they contact us
16:20 - skatcher tf2pt.com: thats what i argued aswell
16:20 - �� | WildCard: like they apaprently contacted monster munch
16:20 - �� | WildCard: why wouldnt they contact us to see if it was true
16:20 - �� | WildCard: when we still have 5 players in the lineup
16:21 - skatcher tf2pt.com: we currently only have 5 players
16:21 - �� | WildCard: so they give preferential treatment out to monster munch by giving them
the courtesy of being contacted and spoken to about the placement
16:21 - skatcher tf2pt.com: gotta fix that
16:21 - �� | WildCard: yet they dont give us the same courtesy
16:21 - skatcher tf2pt.com: tsu even has a recruitment thread
16:22 - �� | WildCard: yep its bs i would follow up with the above why would you contact other
div2 teams to confirm there lineup like you just said you did with monster munch
16:23 - �� | WildCard: and yet completley ignore us and not even ask us anything about the team
16:25 - �� | WildCard: and how can you simply say we are not good enough when as stated above you
didnt even contact us to see if we would be good enough, and when dont even ask the admins who
are in a position to know if we are ie ones who have played us or know us simply taking the word
of people who have noidea or deciding for your self is unacceptable and unfair
16:27 - �� | WildCard: as there breaking there own rules, as far as I was aware there wasnt
even a 40% rule even posteed for this season on the forums
16:27 - �� | WildCard: so would like to know where he gets the 40$ mark from
16:27 - �� | WildCard: %
16:27 - skatcher tf2pt.com: lets move slowly
16:27 - skatcher tf2pt.com: alot of shit can still change
16:27 - �� | WildCard: but its clear it wont he has made up his mind heh :)
16:28 - �� | WildCard: still like you to ask the above questions though when he is back ie why contact monster munch and not us
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: thats just gonna sound like im attacking him
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: its clear he thinks he acted correctly
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: nothings gonna change that
16:28 - �� | WildCard: not rearly :) dont see why he would contact 1 div3 team from last season
16:28 - �� | WildCard: and yet not contact the others
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: thats his was of protecting his authority
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: not budging
16:28 - skatcher tf2pt.com: no matter the arguments
16:30 - �� | WildCard: and his point he made yeserday was we either play div3 and like it or we drop and wait to see if a div2 spot opens up
16:30 - �� | WildCard: not play div3 adn then if one comes avalaible move us up didnt give us that choice.
16:31 - skatcher tf2pt.com: hes telling me we get put in waiting list, if anyone drops bfore week 3, we get the spot
16:32 - �� | WildCard: meh its all bs quite happily tell him to fuck off and go play l4d2 more with illi maybe he can promote some other shit friends up instead :D
16:32 - �� | WildCard: but im in a bad mood hence why its best i dont talk to him lol :)
16:33 - skatcher tf2pt.com: yup


So if any of you have bothered to read through it, I'm sure many will under stand my personnal frustration with talking to a brick wall. And the lack of even the possibility of it being reconsidered at all. And thank you for helping another team fold, due to the fact most players we want have little interest in playing in div3 myself included.