<james6546> Morning
* Pikuchato (4fb6cb96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.182.203.150) has joined #noblecoin
<Pikuchato> was the pos rate (and other specs) already anounced? I have much work and didn't really follow in the last few days
<Pikuchato> Where does it stands? decisions were already made?
<james6546> nope, it is all still being tested and researched
<Pikuchato> ok cool
<james6546> I don't think a decision on anything has been 100% made
<james6546> from reading last nights IRC chat
<Pikuchato> I just saw the post in the forum, reading..
<james6546> There is a lot to read!
<Pikuchato> pfffff long one indeed :P
<Pikuchato> with my english.... se ya next year
<Pikuchato> *see
<james6546> The conclusion I came to was that it is going PoS with a decent amount of interest unless something better gets suggested
<james6546> lol
<myeagleflies> morning
<james6546> hi
<myeagleflies> Pikuchato: lol
<Pikuchato> :P
<myeagleflies> james6546: my understanding is high PoS means people really have incentiv to mine
<myeagleflies> so this way many people secure the network
<myeagleflies> looking at it from different point of view - it introduces high inflation which affects only those who do not mine
<james6546> yeah, it would as there would be a lot of coins about
<james6546> but Rofo was also saying about a variable interest rate, so the more coins you have the less interest you get
<james6546> which would make sense to limit this
<james6546> though I guess you could just run a few wallets?
<myeagleflies> exactly
<Rofo> dynamic inflation affects all users not just your own
<Rofo> so u can have more wallets/blocks staking (its encourage for security) but the rate will affect regardless
<Rofo> it basically means if noone is staking the inflation rate is higher to encourage it
<james6546> ahh, so like diff really
<myeagleflies> Rofo: cool. sounds good
<Rofo> ive been thinking its similar to DRKs PoW distribution
<Rofo> more stake, more security, less inflation
<myeagleflies> james6546: yeah. I do not like idea about discouraging whales
<Rofo> less stake, less security, more incentive to stake/secure
<myeagleflies> makes sense
<james6546> defo, would control inflation nicely
<Rofo> presstab is highly influenced by TEK, HBN & Tranz if you read up on their success and PoS progress
<Pikuchato> Very interesting! So basiclly it will be similar to pow mining, Every coin holder can choose to switch his 'miners' on or off and gets coins relativly to his hashing power which in pos equals to numbers of coins you have
<Rofo> were also getting positive feedback from stakehunter who is big on PoS investment
<Rofo> exactly
<james6546> I will do some reading, I am behind with my crypto stuff tbh
<Rofo> im not 100% certain on the maths but presstab can explain it better
<myeagleflies> is stakehunter an investor?
<Rofo> but also having a lower block reward with a good min/max rate makes it more secure & promots staking also
<myeagleflies> Rofo: was reading some of his thoughts. sounds reasonable
<Rofo> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=498739.0
<Rofo> http://wiki.hobonickels.info/index.php?title=Proof_of_Stake
<Rofo> are solid starts
<james6546> ta
<Rofo> ive also been taking in the advice and knowledge of sunny king and tranz over the newer wave of PoS coins
<Rofo> personally im becoming a fan, but PoS requires a lot of education, discussion and realworld examples i think compared to PoW
<james6546> I'll get reading then
<Rofo> there are also a fair number of misleading 'facts' about PoS which i think are hurting them beneath the surface
<james6546> oh, and btw I didn't intentionally add to the FUD last night :/
<Rofo> such as immunity to 51% and lax security practices
<Rofo> no dramas its fine
<myeagleflies> Rofo: becoming a fan? ;)
<Rofo> lol
<Rofo> i just think PoW is in a dangerous state atm for all algos
<myeagleflies> well, it is definitively dangerous for noble
<Pikuchato> Rofo and pos sitting on a tree...
<Pikuchato> lol sorry bad joke :P
<james6546> lol
<Rofo> haha np
<james6546> I used to like the idea of PoS, then was put off by BC when a few people seemed to own most of it. But a PoW then Pos could be perfect
<james6546> especially with all of the coins I own :)
<myeagleflies> hahja
<myeagleflies> ok, I will read more of what stakehunter said bit later today
<myeagleflies> sound slike he has a plan at least
<Rofo> no worries
<myeagleflies> he also stated he likes coins with known interest in advance. with variable interest it is difficult to predict how much coins someone is going to hold after a year
<Rofo> i think the problem with BC is it was a very obvious controlled coin during the 90k rise and 8000btc volume
<Rofo> it looks a little more natural now but still not quite
<myeagleflies> and I think variable interest is probably more difficult to implement and may be easier to abuse?
<Rofo> i dont believe so its quite tested, all coins NVCS on his list are variable
<myeagleflies> ok
<Rofo> it basically acts as a good balancing act i feel
<Rofo> initial rate is higher to encourage people to secure
<Rofo> i like inflation as little as the next person but a continued supply is the necessary price for a continued blockchain at this point :(
<Rofo> then the more people that stake the lower that rate goes
<Rofo> naturally it hopefully means NOBL ends in the hands of people who want to hold and build their investment
<Rofo> rather than external miners who want to mine & dump/51%
<myeagleflies> yep
<Rofo> the stakehunters pledge a lot of them take (whether they keep it is up to arguing) is that they hold & sell 25% of stake
<myeagleflies> if you read what I said 15 minutes ago or so - I think that high PoS is strong incentive for people to join staking
<myeagleflies> which is good
<myeagleflies> you can think about it as a penalty for people who do not stake
<Rofo> yes definitely myeagles it will be considered high stake so its considered for stake value rather than not
<Rofo> high PoS sorry
<Rofo> that was a term introduced to me very early and its something wed rather do
<myeagleflies> ok
<myeagleflies> I started reading our code
<Rofo> i love low inflation and i know it protects security, but low PoS with next to zero incentive to stake = what security?
<myeagleflies> presstab pushed me a bit to do it. and that's good
<myeagleflies> ;)
<Rofo> :P
<Rofo> protects value*
<james6546> I think it is good. Hadn't really heard about high PoS before all of this
<james6546> I had only looked at coins with a couple of %
<james6546> which isn't worth your time
<Rofo> yeah exactly
<Rofo> no point to stake or hold, just daytrade
<james6546> will there be a min age?
<Rofo> ill share the initial specs, please keep in mind these arent set in stone its just to get discussion rolling
<james6546> ok :)
<Rofo> Proof of Stake Block Time: 60 seconds
<Rofo> Minimum Stake Time: 7 days  Maximum Stake Time: 21 days
<Rofo> Maximum Annual Stake Rate: 175% - Dynamic Inflation so this will not be real #
<Rofo> 175% will put NobleCoin in a unique segment of the Proof of Stake market. HoboNickels and several other coins are 100%, BottleCaps is going to 200%, and TEK is 500%.  In order to be competitive I have the feeling that the coin would need to be more than 100%.  I have been debating between 150 and 175 and think 175 might be best.
<Rofo> Inflation Control: Maximum Stake Reward of 10,000 NOBL
<Rofo> This is not per wallet address, just per Proof of Stake block. This will allow for the maximum amount of coins added per day to be 14,400,000 NOBL.  Do keep in mind that it is extremely unlikely that every single PoS block gets the maximum subsidy.  The rational behind the 10k numbers is this.  If you have your coins split into blocks of 100k NOBL, then you will be able to achieve full stake weight on day 21 and still receive your full stake reward (0.48% per day).  If you hold more than 100k NOBL you will be encouraged by simple economics to split your coins into blocks of 100k or less using coin control. Most users will stake around day 7-10 most likely.  A 200k block of coin staked on day 10 will still receive full reward.
<Rofo> As previously discussed a limit to the stake this will not only help fight inflation, but will also ensure a high network stake weight, thus securing the network.
<Rofo> Proof of Work
<Rofo> As of right now I am still unsure how PoW is going to fit. I think it will be easiest to fork as a hybrid and then have the fork have a precoded phase out of PoW after a month or two.  The details of this will be decided in our upcoming testing of the fork.
<Rofo> there will be plenty of questions and i think a # of them are answered, presstab & stakehunter I feel will shine during this segment
<Rofo> Please educate me on the reason for having a max age. BC (and TRK) has no max age. It looks to me that the best max age is no max age (plus we could PR about getting inspiration from BC - or not). Casual holders in the future (our target if we want to go mainstram) would not open their wallet regularly (I agree 21 days is already good enough, though, but why set a limit, even if is a large one, if not necessary?).
<Rofo> This is for security reasons.  To attack a PoS coin, you don't need 51% of the coins, you need 51% of the network stake weight.  If someone were to keep there coins offline for a few months they could build up enough weight to launch an attack.
<myeagleflies> ah!
<myeagleflies> ok
<Rofo> - I don't really understand how such a limit (whatever its amount is) would do any good to Noble. Your explanation did not convince me. The only thing is that, by forcing people to split coins, it will encourage them to open their wallet more often, thus securing the network more. Am I right?
<Rofo> No your not right. It isn't about opening the wallet it is about raising the maximum stake weight and making the coin safer.  It also provides a stable maximum rate of money supply growth.
<Rofo> - I still fail to see how Maximum stake reward will control inflation. 2x100k should give you as much a reward as 1x200k, no?
<Rofo> If I am wrong, then we have an inflation control system that should be advertised. "Look, we are serious about it, this is not a primitive 'get more money' thing".
<Rofo> Because there are only 1440 blocks a day with a fixed maximum reward.
<Rofo> stakehunter also gave some good feedback, ill just double check its OK and post his thoughts also
<james6546> Wow
<james6546> That is pretty exciting tbh
<james6546> so the 21 days is the max age of the coins that are eligable for staking, how does the age get reset?
<Rofo> my primary concern is getting the numbers right with inflation, making sure the #s necessary and that even though the *potential* max is quite high in reality it should not be nearly that high, making sure we educate ourselves and clear the air on any PoS misconceptions & that we understand PoS/staking changes the dynamics of trading/price despite coins that may be added per day
<Rofo> ive never staked (shamefully) :P i imagine you get your stake reward and its automatic?
<james6546> I haven't much. I played about with grain for a while. The coins that are being staked go out of your wallet, and you get small amounts deposited as they are mined
<Rofo> our overall requests were 1. secure (incentive to hold & stake), 2. relatively competitive for a PoS coin, 3. nothing too special or over-the-top, because our primary focus was just on a transition away from multipools/51% so we could focus on what NOBL did initially: merchants, infrastructure, charity/steps & crypto education, etc.
<james6546> I guess seeing as there aren't that many case studies the best way is to try it, and then if it doesn't work change the variables? Though I guess that would be a hard fork...
<myeagleflies> Rofo: I like the priorities
<Rofo> it would be a hard fork, but we're relatively 'middle'/tested in that we follow in the footsteps of people like tranz (although i haven't personally spoken to him ive read so many PoS threads at this point), HBN/TEK, advice from stakehunter/presstab and i read a lot into the security specifics of peercoin from sunny king and those dev-wizards on peercointalk
* Retrieving #noblecoin modes...
<myeagleflies> if you could post some links this would be great
<Rofo> sure let me try and find some good ones
<Rofo> http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2976.msg27303#msg27303
<myeagleflies> cheers! will take a look later. heading to work now
<Rofo> actually just http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2976
<Rofo> no worries ill post a bunch in the thread
<myeagleflies> great
<Pikuchato> Rofo will coin age coin start at the block of the fork? or coin age are already counting so after the fork we can mine pos blocks right away? If the first one is true we might have a stuck blockchain because no one will be able to generate a block
<james6546> I guess that is why it starts with PoW/PoS hybrid?
<james6546> I hope it is from the fork, as I want to move my coins to my server :)
<Pikuchato> And I think the Maximum Stake Reward of 10,000 NOBL is not really an Inflation Control, It just make the stakes more equally divided over short time periods
<Pikuchato> because it can create 14.4M nobel a day, I think its enough for everyones stakes
<Rofo> perhaps, id need some more examples and info. from presstab once hes done testing and wants to answer questions :)
<Rofo> like i said the intricacies of pos were something i needed to catch up on fast
<Rofo> i imagine coin age will start after the fork
<Rofo> and thats why pow is necessary initially to cover our ass
<Pikuchato> so after the fork we will have some time period exactly like now? pow scrypt?
<Rofo> yes, i dont want it to be for too long a period and thats currently more in presstabs hands. if we can feel relatively secure in just PoS for now we'll stick with it
<Pikuchato> I think that Maximum Stake Reward is good, but for different reason. It makes big holders to keep mining and not just open their wallet once in a while for mining one big pos block
<Rofo> exactly, i think it encourages lots of little staking and doesnt lock out the little guys? as far as i can tell?
<Rofo> noone can just stake 20million coin block just like that
<Rofo> extra effort on part of coin control and creating your blocks, but presstab pressed that encouraged security
<Pikuchato> you are right because small holders can open their wallet for much shorter time and still get the same %
<Rofo> yep exactly
<james6546> This is why I like Noble, the amount of planning and thought that goes into everything
<james6546> everything is thought out for the long term
<Rofo> well that longterm PoW thinking hasnt panned out too well this month :P
<james6546> lol, that was pretty unforseeable!
<Rofo> perhaps, traditional thinking was if it wasnt profitable, it was highly unlikely
<james6546> must have made some powerful enemies..
<Rofo> this game has gotten nastier though even though we are far from the first to suffer
<Rofo> there were plenty of 51%s last year that seemd to be malicious rather than profit drive
<Rofo> driven*
<james6546> people seemed to do it just because they could
<Rofo> idk, 1-2ghs might seem like enough but its a drop in the ocean so not necessarily powerful
<james6546> power trip maybe
<Rofo> yeah i think its a combination of ego & small profit
<james6546> at least now if someone wants to 51% with PoS it will cost them a lot more
<Rofo> i mean my pdf isnt that big of a threat, money speaks louder than anything i could say in the pdf
<Pikuchato> POS merge mining could be interesting idea if exists or not :)
<Rofo> it will, its also easier to spot, and can be combated if necessary
<Rofo> i think a # of coins are looking at PoW-MM/PoS including DMD i need to get back to them
<Pikuchato> yep, lots of coins
<Rofo> right now its just an uncertainty whether we want PoW at all at this point, in a worst case scenario (universal PoS failure/breakdown/lack of confidence whatever) the option is there to revert (messy or otherwise)