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  6.  
  7. Channel ID: -27786142
  8. Channel Name: Group Chat (Captain Rivel, poeke)
  9. Listener: Darius III
  10. Session started: 2012.01.20 23:43:18
  11. ---------------------------------------------------------------
  12.  
  13. [ 2012.01.20 23:43:26 ] Darius III > Hello sir
  14. [ 2012.01.20 23:43:49 ] Captain Rivel > is darius your main?
  15. [ 2012.01.20 23:43:49 ] Darius III > I am going to give it to you with no trolling, and only homesty
  16. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:15 ] Darius III > Yes poeke is my alt. Please dont bother banning her and forcing me to log in one of my 53 other toons
  17. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:20 ] Captain Rivel > ill invite phat to this as well
  18. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:40 ] Captain Rivel > so what did you want to say
  19. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:46 ] Phattecia > interesting
  20. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:50 ] Phattecia > go ahead
  21. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:52 ] Darius III > I'd like to conference with the major FC that are on and will invite some people too'
  22. [ 2012.01.20 23:44:54 ] Phattecia > lets hear it
  23. [ 2012.01.20 23:45:02 ] Darius III > please no keith plank though
  24. [ 2012.01.20 23:45:24 ] Captain Rivel > did you want btl only or tdf as well
  25. [ 2012.01.20 23:45:33 ] Darius III > t8xxic
  26. [ 2012.01.20 23:45:53 ] Darius III > I want BTL and TDF captains and higher
  27. [ 2012.01.20 23:46:27 ] carmelos53 > ?
  28. [ 2012.01.20 23:46:29 ] Captain Rivel > carm if theres anyone you think should be in this chat add them
  29. [ 2012.01.20 23:46:46 ] Captain Rivel > darius wants to speak to btl and tdf about his actions
  30. [ 2012.01.20 23:47:02 ] t8xxic Thiesant > darius before the earlier chat i tought it was fun having you around more entrtainment for incs
  31. [ 2012.01.20 23:47:10 ] t8xxic Thiesant > now my opinionin of you guys is well down
  32. [ 2012.01.20 23:47:21 ] t8xxic Thiesant > you reaveealed that you are jus tjelous of us
  33. [ 2012.01.20 23:47:25 ] Darius III > promise you I am 100% legit in the convo
  34. [ 2012.01.20 23:47:37 ] Darius III > Mate please don't be stupid or troll
  35. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:05 ] Captain Rivel > unless carmelos would like to get more tdf in here, we can start
  36. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:11 ] Darius III > invite talaza and anoxim acore please
  37. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:36 ] Darius III > hardinsalv
  38. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:45 ] carmelos53 > why are we talking to him now
  39. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:46 ] carmelos53 > ?
  40. [ 2012.01.20 23:48:59 ] HardinSalvor > o7
  41. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:02 ] Darius III > If you dont want to talk yet maybe we can try next week?
  42. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:03 ] Phattecia > i have no idea
  43. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:05 ] Phattecia > and 07
  44. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:15 ] Darius III > Hello gentlemen
  45. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:16 ] carmelos53 > confused as to why a spot light hungry child is tlaking to me.
  46. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:22 ] carmelos53 > tdf doesn't want to talk. ty bye
  47. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:28 ] Darius III > Ok lol;
  48. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:28 ] Phattecia > nah, lets hear it darius
  49. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:34 ] Darius III > What I hope to get from you guys
  50. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:46 ] Captain Rivel > we will fill tdf in regarding what is said in this conversation
  51. [ 2012.01.20 23:49:47 ] Darius III > Is a consensus on ewhat nerf is fair to the guys
  52. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:18 ] Phattecia > bring back the harder AI from the beginnigs of incursions
  53. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:26 ] HardinSalvor > ^seconded
  54. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:31 ] Captain Rivel > your taking a step ahead of yourself darius, dont come at us as a csm member yet, talk to us as the person invovled in taking down high sec mobs
  55. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:35 ] Darius III > There needs to be a nerf. I woul dlike to propose or at least be in a good position to advise CCP about the nerf should there be one
  56. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:46 ] Phattecia > no nerf
  57. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:48 ] Phattecia > buff AI
  58. [ 2012.01.20 23:50:58 ] Phattecia > make site sharder
  59. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:02 ] Phattecia > more kinds of sites
  60. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:03 ] Darius III > Th person who took down the incursions needed to do this to negotiate from a position of strength
  61. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:27 ] Phattecia > you got some attention
  62. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:29 ] Phattecia > from this
  63. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:46 ] Captain Rivel > it doesnt show strength, it shows weakness, you are the 3rd group of players to attempt to take down high sec moms
  64. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:53 ] Darius III > That doesnt hurt either. there many wind for me on this, personal, political, for my corp and alliance as well. many motives
  65. [ 2012.01.20 23:51:57 ] Captain Rivel > teh way they are formated wont allow that to happen consistantly
  66. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:08 ] HardinSalvor > t8xxic Thiesant o/ - who do you represent?
  67. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:22 ] t8xxic Thiesant > i here for the entertainment
  68. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:26 ] HardinSalvor > hah alright
  69. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:33 ] Darius III > He is a respected FC and his inpu tis valued
  70. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:34 ] HardinSalvor > enjoy :)
  71. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:36 ] t8xxic Thiesant > keep on pretend im nto here
  72. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:50 ] HardinSalvor > It's cool darius, just wanted to know who i was tlaking too :)
  73. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:51 ] Darius III > He FC's quite a few incursions. Dont be modest mate
  74. [ 2012.01.20 23:52:53 ] t8xxic Thiesant > what? im famous yay
  75. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:08 ] HardinSalvor > so to summarise
  76. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:08 ] Phattecia > we ait here to make freinds
  77. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:18 ] Phattecia > back to bussiness please
  78. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:25 ] Darius III > I would like to see, ideally a unified responce from organizers of major incursion fleets
  79. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:33 ] HardinSalvor > You want us to decide on a nerf to incursions, together, and presumbably present it ot CCP and the players?
  80. [ 2012.01.20 23:53:46 ] Darius III > Regarding the coming nerf and to run my proposal by you guys
  81. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:13 ] t8xxic Thiesant > make them harder but more isk too
  82. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:13 ] Captain Rivel > as a CSM member and as CSM as a whole, for the amount of issues you bring up about incursions, there has been very little action in getting in touch w/ the incursion community
  83. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:21 ] Darius III > I believe a nerf /adjustment is in order. I have run incirdsions daily for around a month and a half before I started on the moms
  84. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:23 ] t8xxic Thiesant > also more sites
  85. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:39 ] Darius III > I dont think any other CSM has even been to a site
  86. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:43 ] Darius III > But I wouldnt know
  87. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:52 ] HardinSalvor > Mittens ran lowsec ones briefly
  88. [ 2012.01.20 23:54:57 ] Captain Rivel > a nerf for incursions only helps nullsec, not high sec.
  89. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:01 ] HardinSalvor > but that's a little different I guess.
  90. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:07 ] Captain Rivel > an incursion buff would be a better way
  91. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:12 ] Darius III > I know I wanted to spenbd as much time as I had to to get a comprehensive grasp of incursions themselves and the incursion community
  92. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:30 ] Captain Rivel > expand upon incursions, not limit them
  93. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:35 ] Phattecia > this^
  94. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:37 ] Darius III > "Nullsec" doesnt care about incursions incursion runners
  95. [ 2012.01.20 23:55:51 ] Darius III > So many nullsec pilots run incursions it isnt even funny
  96. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:03 ] Captain Rivel > all the reports made about incursions are people upset with the income made by low risk high sec incursions
  97. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:07 ] Darius III > The ISK vs Risk is out of line
  98. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:07 ] Phattecia > besy way for combat pilots to make isk
  99. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:23 ] HardinSalvor > Can I propose one at a time?
  100. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:28 ] HardinSalvor > this isn't gonna go anywhere like this
  101. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:35 ] Captain Rivel > i do agree that isk per hour and isk for risk is not correct
  102. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:43 ] Darius III > Incursions are pretty much the best guaranteed income in eve right now
  103. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:55 ] t8xxic Thiesant > risk for isk.... the ships we fly are expensive and they get lsot
  104. [ 2012.01.20 23:56:59 ] Captain Rivel > the way to fix that though is far different then what you have in mind
  105. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:06 ] Darius III > I assure you there is no nullsec conspiracy
  106. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:07 ] t8xxic Thiesant > all is needed is fro logis to mees up
  107. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:11 ] t8xxic Thiesant > or fo rfc to mees up
  108. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:26 ] t8xxic Thiesant > the large wantities of isk include having shiny ships
  109. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:31 ] HardinSalvor > Again - maybe we should have darius speak, then rivel, then...etc? because there is WAY too many people talking
  110. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:32 ] t8xxic Thiesant > hence the more risk
  111. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:33 ] Phattecia > while you say that now Darius, it just makes me think there is one
  112. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:33 ] Darius III > I never said what I had in mind to anyone or wrote it anywhere so, again please no trolling
  113. [ 2012.01.20 23:57:46 ] Darius III > I wont lie in this convo nor will I troll
  114. [ 2012.01.20 23:58:00 ] Phattecia > go ahead darius, spit it out
  115. [ 2012.01.20 23:58:14 ] Captain Rivel > so long as you get to hear what the incursion community wants, and from the ppl who have been through incursions from teh start; youll see that theres a fair and reasonable way to fix incursions w/o 'nerfing' them
  116. [ 2012.01.20 23:58:26 ] Darius III > I myself organized Bricks tro make this mission a success. There were many participants and key players invilved, but Brick cam because I led them
  117. [ 2012.01.20 23:58:44 ] Darius III > RIVEL I AGREE I said nerf/adjustment
  118. [ 2012.01.20 23:59:01 ] t8xxic Thiesant > ask ccp for more nullsec incs
  119. [ 2012.01.20 23:59:02 ] Darius III > My proposal is to move isk away from Vanguards and into assaults
  120. [ 2012.01.20 23:59:07 ] t8xxic Thiesant > or bump up them
  121. [ 2012.01.20 23:59:35 ] Captain Rivel > ill let you finish what your saying, we can debate ideas later
  122. [ 2012.01.20 23:59:52 ] HardinSalvor > :D
  123. [ 2012.01.21 00:00:13 ] Darius III > I believe that assualts difficulty at the site and difficulty of organization are underpaid
  124. [ 2012.01.21 00:00:22 ] t8xxic Thiesant > agree
  125. [ 2012.01.21 00:00:55 ] Darius III > Similiarly I believe Vanguards are rediciuously overpaid and far too easy+fast for the money recieved
  126. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:02 ] t8xxic Thiesant > ask to double p nullsec isk payout and ass payout
  127. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:08 ] t8xxic Thiesant > all of you would be hgappy?
  128. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:12 ] Phattecia > all sites should scale, with hardest sites, most profitable
  129. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:27 ] Captain Rivel > its not as simple as skewing the payouts
  130. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:46 ] HardinSalvor > for the love of all that's holy, if we have 5 people talking we won't get anywhere
  131. [ 2012.01.21 00:01:50 ] t8xxic Thiesant > vanguards are easy witha proper fleet and fc
  132. [ 2012.01.21 00:02:13 ] t8xxic Thiesant > a lot of things can go wrong
  133. [ 2012.01.21 00:02:26 ] Darius III > this convo will be saved, and analyzed by me. Talking by 5 poeple will sort itself
  134. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:03 ] Darius III > vanguards are very easy agreed or no?
  135. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:10 ] HardinSalvor > That won't help us right now unfortunaatley - if you want to ahve a debate, we need to understand what each other are saying right now rather than to be analyzed later
  136. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:28 ] Captain Rivel > vangaurds are too easy for an experienced fleet
  137. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:34 ] Phattecia > this^
  138. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:40 ] Phattecia > but not for nubs
  139. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:45 ] Darius III > agreed
  140. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:50 ] HardinSalvor > agreed
  141. [ 2012.01.21 00:03:51 ] Darius III > progress
  142. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:06 ] t8xxic Thiesant > make additional sites , harder ith mroe payout?
  143. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:15 ] Darius III > Assault fleets are harder to organize and harder to run for less isk agree or disagree?
  144. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:18 ] t8xxic Thiesant > harder with more payout
  145. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:24 ] t8xxic Thiesant > agree
  146. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:27 ] HardinSalvor > agree
  147. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:31 ] Phattecia > agree
  148. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:38 ] Captain Rivel > harder to maintain, yes
  149. [ 2012.01.21 00:04:42 ] Darius III > Progress again
  150. [ 2012.01.21 00:05:29 ] Darius III > Buffing assault fleets with ISK from A reduced payout from vangurads would be more properly scaled, agree or disagree?
  151. [ 2012.01.21 00:05:41 ] HardinSalvor > disagree
  152. [ 2012.01.21 00:05:51 ] t8xxic Thiesant > disagree
  153. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:10 ] Phattecia > disagree
  154. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:11 ] Captain Rivel > disagree as well, its teh site and fleet requirements that make it unappealing
  155. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:22 ] Phattecia > for the payouts
  156. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:46 ] Darius III > So you maintain that one site pays too much and is too easy while anothe is more dicfficult and pays to little but that balancing them would NOT be better scaled?
  157. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:46 ] HardinSalvor > Darius, may I elaborate why we disagree here?
  158. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:56 ] HardinSalvor > Yes, may I explain why?
  159. [ 2012.01.21 00:06:59 ] Darius III > Please do. I am doing this to LISTEN TO YOU GUYS
  160. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:04 ] HardinSalvor > Okay
  161. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:10 ] Darius III > I kille dyous MS to force convo
  162. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:25 ] Captain Rivel > thats horrible logic darius
  163. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:29 ] Darius III > I spent 40 hours arrainguing this just to talk to you guys
  164. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:32 ] HardinSalvor > first, there#s a lot I want to say about the many things which I disagre with about this convo, but skipping voer that for now in the interest of progress
  165. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:39 ] HardinSalvor > the reason we disagree
  166. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:42 ] HardinSalvor > is twofold, I tihnk
  167. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:45 ] Darius III > Also I did it to get the votes from BTL and TDF members in coming election
  168. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:56 ] Darius III > but my logic is poor
  169. [ 2012.01.21 00:07:58 ] HardinSalvor > we know, darius, please one moment
  170. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:06 ] HardinSalvor > let me talk :)
  171. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:13 ] t8xxic Thiesant > wait you popped mom to be liked?
  172. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:20 ] Phattecia > pfft
  173. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:23 ] Darius III > go on Hardin
  174. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:26 ] HardinSalvor > Thank you
  175. [ 2012.01.21 00:08:58 ] HardinSalvor > Everoyne here agrees taht the payouts for sites are somewhat inverted
  176. [ 2012.01.21 00:09:05 ] HardinSalvor > The sites with fewer poeple earn the most ISK
  177. [ 2012.01.21 00:09:25 ] Phattecia > most isk/for time
  178. [ 2012.01.21 00:09:42 ] HardinSalvor > which we all assume is not what CCP originally intended, nor is it encouraging for team play which we feel is the point of "group PvE"
  179. [ 2012.01.21 00:09:48 ] HardinSalvor > yes, sorry.
  180. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:01 ] Phattecia > ♥
  181. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:06 ] t8xxic Thiesant > having 21 ppl cooperating is very hard
  182. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:26 ] HardinSalvor > We also agree that the inherent risk of running incursions is low compared to the reward they generate, as a trend across all sites
  183. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:35 ] HardinSalvor > pleae one moment more toxic
  184. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:38 ] t8xxic Thiesant > kk
  185. [ 2012.01.21 00:10:57 ] HardinSalvor > There are, however, two issues which darius is merging together
  186. [ 2012.01.21 00:11:13 ] HardinSalvor > First: The imbalance of the sites in relation to each other and the co-operation required
  187. [ 2012.01.21 00:11:33 ] HardinSalvor > Second: the imbalanceof the sites in realtion to other ISK generating activities aka sanctums, wh's, etc
  188. [ 2012.01.21 00:11:59 ] HardinSalvor > So while I think we would agree that assaults as relative to vanguards should be moved in favour of assaults
  189. [ 2012.01.21 00:12:24 ] HardinSalvor > the second issue prevents us from accepting this point, because of the increase/maintaining of ISK generated which would result
  190. [ 2012.01.21 00:13:20 ] HardinSalvor > This discussion could be easier by taking these two issues seperately - how do incursions sites pay in relation to each other, and how do tehy pay in relation to teh rest of eve
  191. [ 2012.01.21 00:13:25 ] HardinSalvor > ~fin~
  192. [ 2012.01.21 00:13:50 ] Captain Rivel > as you can see, each of us have thought about this for a while
  193. [ 2012.01.21 00:13:57 ] Captain Rivel > and we have different thoughts on the matter
  194. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:01 ] t8xxic Thiesant > k guys this was fun i got to log now
  195. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:07 ] Darius III > o/
  196. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:09 ] t8xxic Thiesant > see ya soon
  197. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:10 ] HardinSalvor > o/
  198. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:13 ] Darius III > thanks for your input
  199. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:13 ] Captain Rivel > so a simple questionare of 'agree' and 'disagree' wont cut it
  200. [ 2012.01.21 00:14:13 ] Phattecia > o/
  201. [ 2012.01.21 00:15:07 ] Darius III > For me a simple agree or disagree is all I am in search or
  202. [ 2012.01.21 00:15:38 ] Captain Rivel > and thats fine for starters, we would need to go back and go into further detail on those questions though
  203. [ 2012.01.21 00:15:51 ] Phattecia > you will not find that here darius
  204. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:04 ] Phattecia > the 3 of us
  205. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:10 ] Darius III > Again, I have spent numerous hours to get this input from you guys
  206. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:12 ] Phattecia > have been here since incursion began
  207. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:37 ] Phattecia > you will find no better input on incursions , @ least from the shield fleet side of things
  208. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:39 ] Darius III > I invuted you guys for a reason, to listen
  209. [ 2012.01.21 00:16:59 ] Phattecia > im listening
  210. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:01 ] Phattecia > so speak
  211. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:13 ] Darius III > you have it backwards. I came here to listen TO YOU
  212. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:27 ] Phattecia > different kinds of sites
  213. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:31 ] Phattecia > harder AI
  214. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:41 ] Phattecia > scale up payouts for ass, and HQ's
  215. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:45 ] HardinSalvor > HQ > assault > vg in terms of pay
  216. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:48 ] Phattecia > hell
  217. [ 2012.01.21 00:17:52 ] Phattecia > scale scout sites for the nubs
  218. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:11 ] Phattecia > they make shit compared to the next highest lvl
  219. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:18 ] Phattecia > hey
  220. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:20 ] Phattecia > wait a minute
  221. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:21 ] HardinSalvor > (and compared to everything else)
  222. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:23 ] HardinSalvor > x
  223. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:25 ] HardinSalvor > xD
  224. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:29 ] Phattecia > shouldnt scouts be the farmanble ones?
  225. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:36 ] Phattecia > not VG's?
  226. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:38 ] Phattecia > wtf CCP
  227. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:44 ] HardinSalvor > lol
  228. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:46 ] Captain Rivel > incursions had a great launch, they gave a good sample of different types of sites, challenges and fleet comps. when incursions change they should be expanded to a new level, not lowered and made less attractive
  229. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:56 ] Phattecia > incursions saved this game
  230. [ 2012.01.21 00:18:59 ] Phattecia > imo
  231. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:15 ] Phattecia > also, what rivel said
  232. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:23 ] Darius III > Non PvP players make up a majority of eve players
  233. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:34 ] Captain Rivel > i do have a semi lengthy explanation to what exactly "expnded" means but that would wait until im not talking over everyone
  234. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:41 ] Darius III > BVut they are not organized nor do they have discipline
  235. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:42 ] Phattecia > i disagress
  236. [ 2012.01.21 00:19:46 ] Phattecia > eve is pvp
  237. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:01 ] Darius III > Captain Rivel: you have the floor
  238. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:02 ] Phattecia > there are just varying degree's of targets
  239. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:05 ] Captain Rivel > these incursion channels and fleets were setup by pvpers
  240. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:21 ] Captain Rivel > incursions began as a gold mine for pvpers who knew how to fly in fleets
  241. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:24 ] HardinSalvor > I'm really sorry guys, it's half midnight here and I@m out of time. I will write my personal stand on this issue on the incursion guide tommorow for all to see, and I'll get this chatlog from someone, but again sorry I need to go. o7
  242. [ 2012.01.21 00:20:46 ] Captain Rivel > and when it started, it got ppl into a decent high sec training ground for incursions
  243. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:01 ] Phattecia > laters bro
  244. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:05 ] Darius III > PHAT
  245. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:16 ] Phattecia > ?
  246. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:40 ] Darius III > I didnt see hardin was leaving I was going to say mail me if you you had more but you stayng
  247. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:51 ] Darius III > Rivel, continue please
  248. [ 2012.01.21 00:21:52 ] Phattecia > ♥
  249. [ 2012.01.21 00:22:04 ] Captain Rivel > hardin will mail you what he wants to say regardless if you let him or not
  250. [ 2012.01.21 00:22:14 ] Phattecia > cconfirmed
  251. [ 2012.01.21 00:22:22 ] Captain Rivel > so getting back on track w/ teh expanding incursions
  252. [ 2012.01.21 00:22:47 ] Captain Rivel > theres 3 problems w/ incursions, payout scheme, risk vs reward, and the format
  253. [ 2012.01.21 00:23:23 ] Captain Rivel > isk per hour is inverted, as mentioned before, but that doesnt exactly mean a nerf in payouts
  254. [ 2012.01.21 00:23:55 ] Captain Rivel > just needs to scale better, which means a small nerf on vg payout, or an increase in site completition
  255. [ 2012.01.21 00:24:05 ] Darius III > I am against taking isk out of incursions
  256. [ 2012.01.21 00:24:18 ] Captain Rivel > 10m isk per site is fine, so long as the risk is there to justify that
  257. [ 2012.01.21 00:24:34 ] Phattecia > agree
  258. [ 2012.01.21 00:24:47 ] Captain Rivel > the risk vs reward, every single site in incursions needs to be reviewed
  259. [ 2012.01.21 00:25:05 ] Captain Rivel > some sites need to be completely revamped or removed, but all sites need to have some level of randomness to them
  260. [ 2012.01.21 00:25:16 ] Phattecia > agree
  261. [ 2012.01.21 00:25:50 ] Captain Rivel > the AI can be focused on different things, attacking as much as they can, focus on defense and avoidance, ewar, or a combination of the above
  262. [ 2012.01.21 00:26:02 ] Captain Rivel > but never should they do exactly the same thing everytime
  263. [ 2012.01.21 00:26:18 ] Phattecia > cconfirmed
  264. [ 2012.01.21 00:26:21 ] Phattecia > agree
  265. [ 2012.01.21 00:26:46 ] Darius III > I believe I know how CCP will approach the problem, and it will be to make no major changes that involve work, and merely adjust the numbers
  266. [ 2012.01.21 00:26:58 ] Captain Rivel > and it should be an ongoing process as well and ccp should put the time into incursions as they are definatly worth it
  267. [ 2012.01.21 00:27:25 ] Captain Rivel > thats a big problem, if thats whath ccp intends to do
  268. [ 2012.01.21 00:27:43 ] Phattecia > players will def NOT like that
  269. [ 2012.01.21 00:27:53 ] Captain Rivel > the last solution of the 3 problems is going to require just that, time and major changes to incursions
  270. [ 2012.01.21 00:28:13 ] Captain Rivel > you can talk to any leader of btl or tdf and they will agree that we do not own incursions
  271. [ 2012.01.21 00:28:14 ] Darius III > Well I don't have any insider knowledge about it that is just my personal opinion. I am very distrusting of CCP's ability to "do the right thing"
  272. [ 2012.01.21 00:28:29 ] Darius III > I, of all people, know that you do not
  273. [ 2012.01.21 00:28:42 ] Captain Rivel > the problem people are having and the reason why these channels have got into power is becuz of hte format in which incursions are formed
  274. [ 2012.01.21 00:29:00 ] Darius III > 'own' incursions. But what you have done as far as organizind incursion channels etc you have provided content
  275. [ 2012.01.21 00:29:16 ] Darius III > Content that is rewarding for the player and ultimatly good for the game.
  276. [ 2012.01.21 00:29:35 ] Phattecia > we agree
  277. [ 2012.01.21 00:29:35 ] Darius III > Go on Captain
  278. [ 2012.01.21 00:29:49 ] Captain Rivel > teh format of incursions right now is very easy to take advantage of
  279. [ 2012.01.21 00:30:02 ] Captain Rivel > so long as theres a large enough group to take on a single site, the incursion can be ended
  280. [ 2012.01.21 00:30:25 ] Darius III > DO tell :)
  281. [ 2012.01.21 00:30:29 ] Captain Rivel > the 3rd part of my plan, fixing the format of incursions would fix a lot of problems ppl run into incursions
  282. [ 2012.01.21 00:30:44 ] Captain Rivel > how do you get ppl to stop running vaguards? dont have them
  283. [ 2012.01.21 00:30:58 ] Captain Rivel > instead of an incursion spawning w/ set systems being vgs, assaults or hqs
  284. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:04 ] Captain Rivel > have them all start as vgs
  285. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:13 ] Darius III > ahhh
  286. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:24 ] Captain Rivel > once a certain number or influence bar is finished for that system, the vg sites stop and assault sites spawn
  287. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:38 ] Captain Rivel > if you want to continue vgs, you go to another system, but eventually youll be forced into larger sites
  288. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:38 ] Phattecia > we actually discussed this...what...9 months ago, among ourselves lol
  289. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:56 ] Darius III > THIS is what I came here for
  290. [ 2012.01.21 00:31:59 ] Captain Rivel > this system continues from vgs to assaults to hqs
  291. [ 2012.01.21 00:32:05 ] Darius III > Go on, in great detail please?
  292. [ 2012.01.21 00:32:22 ] Captain Rivel > eventually a mom site or a special hq site will spawn
  293. [ 2012.01.21 00:32:39 ] Captain Rivel > once that is taken down the system locks down for a set amount of time
  294. [ 2012.01.21 00:32:44 ] Captain Rivel > before it resets back to vgs
  295. [ 2012.01.21 00:33:24 ] Captain Rivel > in order to end an incursion, a certain number of systems have to be locked down before the mom site or another special site spawns
  296. [ 2012.01.21 00:33:28 ] Captain Rivel > in which ends the incursion
  297. [ 2012.01.21 00:33:56 ] Captain Rivel > it makes it a lot harder for a single fleet to end the incursion and forces smaller fleets to merge into larger ones
  298. [ 2012.01.21 00:34:31 ] Captain Rivel > in order for the end site to be spawned, the incursion community has to be working together to get it to spawn
  299. [ 2012.01.21 00:34:33 ] Captain Rivel > and then take it out
  300. [ 2012.01.21 00:35:20 ] Captain Rivel > your lp pool also becomes at risk then
  301. [ 2012.01.21 00:35:40 ] Captain Rivel > unless theres a large amount of people working towards this, incursions will actually die out
  302. [ 2012.01.21 00:36:05 ] Captain Rivel > it doesnt become an isk farm, it becomes an event that people have to work through to finish
  303. [ 2012.01.21 00:36:21 ] Phattecia > and mix live events in there somewhere
  304. [ 2012.01.21 00:36:25 ] Phattecia > sorry!
  305. [ 2012.01.21 00:37:11 ] Captain Rivel > if you have any questions about that format let me know, iv gone over it for months to ppl so im most likely missing something
  306. [ 2012.01.21 00:37:27 ] Captain Rivel > so if theres a part you dont understand about it i can fill it in, brb for a sec though
  307. [ 2012.01.21 00:37:35 ] Darius III > ok
  308. [ 2012.01.21 00:38:26 ] Darius III > I think your ideas have much merit, and that they are well though out
  309. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:10 ] Phattecia > but?
  310. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:23 ] Phattecia > theres always a but
  311. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:36 ] Captain Rivel > alright im back
  312. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:48 ] Darius III > No actually no buts. just what I sad
  313. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:55 ] Darius III > [00:38:26] Darius III > I think your ideas have much merit, and that they are well though out
  314. [ 2012.01.21 00:39:59 ] Captain Rivel > the but is ccp already has a lot on their plate and dont respond to things quickly
  315. [ 2012.01.21 00:40:16 ] Phattecia > there is the but! ( i knew it!)
  316. [ 2012.01.21 00:40:47 ] Darius III > Well yes frankly this
  317. [ 2012.01.21 00:40:55 ] Darius III > [00:39:59] Captain Rivel > the but is ccp already has a lot on their plate and dont respond to things quickly
  318. [ 2012.01.21 00:40:59 ] Captain Rivel > incursions are a very important part to eve, its something that works and hasnt been done before in high sec, ccp would be wise to put the effort into it
  319. [ 2012.01.21 00:41:35 ] Phattecia > ^that
  320. [ 2012.01.21 00:41:38 ] Captain Rivel > just to throw this in here b4 i get sidetracted, mom loot. never understood that
  321. [ 2012.01.21 00:41:58 ] Captain Rivel > it either has to be taken out of high sec or something in site needs to change
  322. [ 2012.01.21 00:42:15 ] Captain Rivel > im perfectly ok w/ ninja looters attempting to take teh loot
  323. [ 2012.01.21 00:42:27 ] Captain Rivel > but theres almost nothing that can be done to stop the person
  324. [ 2012.01.21 00:42:31 ] Phattecia > but @ least give us time to kill them!
  325. [ 2012.01.21 00:42:54 ] Darius III > The theft mechanic wont be changed IMO forget about it
  326. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:02 ] Darius III > You do have time to kill them
  327. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:10 ] Captain Rivel > a simple fix like a delayed warp field or an ae dmg field from the mom when it blows up
  328. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:11 ] Darius III > You need Lachesis with 1100 scan res
  329. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:37 ] Captain Rivel > i dont mind that ppl ninja loot
  330. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:43 ] Captain Rivel > its a part of the game that shouldnt be changed
  331. [ 2012.01.21 00:43:58 ] Captain Rivel > it just doesnt give any advantage to the fleet who did the work
  332. [ 2012.01.21 00:44:21 ] Darius III > Neither does any loot drop anywhere
  333. [ 2012.01.21 00:44:31 ] Darius III > Except suicide ganking ;)
  334. [ 2012.01.21 00:44:44 ] Darius III > But thats off topic and wont be changed
  335. [ 2012.01.21 00:44:53 ] Captain Rivel > fair enough
  336. [ 2012.01.21 00:44:54 ] Darius III > Ok so where do we go fromo here?
  337. [ 2012.01.21 00:45:02 ] Phattecia > http://kb.eve-incursions.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=660
  338. [ 2012.01.21 00:45:07 ] Phattecia > been there, done that
  339. [ 2012.01.21 00:45:21 ] Darius III > I am going to be forced to kill the rest of the incursions because TDF didnt participate in the talks. Sorry
  340. [ 2012.01.21 00:45:23 ] Captain Rivel > from here, youv only got information from a couple of the incursion vets
  341. [ 2012.01.21 00:45:56 ] Darius III > Thats all I needed
  342. [ 2012.01.21 00:46:04 ] Captain Rivel > there you go w/ that backwards logic again, BTL and TDF down own incursions and we have worked w/ tdf from the start of incursions
  343. [ 2012.01.21 00:46:19 ] Captain Rivel > there easy to get annoyed but they are a large part of the incursion community
  344. [ 2012.01.21 00:46:26 ] Darius III > A great idea, drom whoever is still a great idea and I think the escalation MS fleets would be pure awesome
  345. [ 2012.01.21 00:46:56 ] Darius III > Scouts>vans>assaults
  346. [ 2012.01.21 00:47:24 ] Captain Rivel > scout sites were added as a last minute feature by people outside of the incursion team
  347. [ 2012.01.21 00:47:39 ] Captain Rivel > unless they are revamped, they should just be removed
  348. [ 2012.01.21 00:47:46 ] Darius III > I think the idea presented is very good.
  349. [ 2012.01.21 00:47:55 ] Captain Rivel > maybe have them drop random items needed for sites
  350. [ 2012.01.21 00:47:59 ] Captain Rivel > like ore or civies
  351. [ 2012.01.21 00:48:12 ] Darius III > The thing with CCP is that they have VERY INTELLIGENT HARDWORKING PEOPLE
  352. [ 2012.01.21 00:48:28 ] Captain Rivel > if you want a more detailed work up on that incursion reformat, i could work it up and then mail it to you
  353. [ 2012.01.21 00:48:32 ] Darius III > But somewhere along the lines the good ideas seem to get weeded out ;(
  354. [ 2012.01.21 00:48:56 ] Darius III > Captain Rivel: That would be very appreciated
  355. [ 2012.01.21 00:49:14 ] Darius III > *very much appreciated.
  356. [ 2012.01.21 00:49:41 ] Captain Rivel > ill work on it when i have time and am not busy dealing w/ a channel upset w/ 3rd party greifing fleets
  357. [ 2012.01.21 00:49:49 ] Phattecia > +1
  358. [ 2012.01.21 00:50:07 ] Darius III > CCP people are good, even The Mittani does good work, CCP and CSM both dedicated but CCP management is what I fear most.
  359. [ 2012.01.21 00:50:13 ] Darius III > Lol
  360. [ 2012.01.21 00:50:20 ] Captain Rivel > also if you want a list of other names that can give you opinions on incursions ill give you them
  361. [ 2012.01.21 00:50:58 ] Darius III > I was going to announce I would no longer form fleets to kill MS aftrer our discussions, but since BTL left, we are forced to double our efforts
  362. [ 2012.01.21 00:51:32 ] Phattecia > i take it you meant "TDF"
  363. [ 2012.01.21 00:51:36 ] Darius III > No no I have talked to many, many people about this and gotten many opinions, but I waited to talk to you guys till Ihad strong position and provided you motivation
  364. [ 2012.01.21 00:51:50 ] Captain Rivel > as a CSM member ill help and provide any information/input that will help the game, but as a person working w/ krissada against high sec incursions, i dont see a point to your methods
  365. [ 2012.01.21 00:52:02 ] Darius III > Yes my apologies TDF. It will be publically recorded that we will continue because of them.
  366. [ 2012.01.21 00:52:18 ] Phattecia > oh no
  367. [ 2012.01.21 00:52:28 ] Phattecia > please say what you want about BTL
  368. [ 2012.01.21 00:52:50 ] Phattecia > what you are doing, has been done before, and is nothing new to us
  369. [ 2012.01.21 00:52:53 ] Darius III > Captain Rival, I have a convoluted sense of logic, and at times people express doubts about it. For instance, killing people in hisec to get their vote
  370. [ 2012.01.21 00:53:16 ] Captain Rivel > we arnt tdf, but we work with them and we are both major players in teh incursion community, even if you left btl alone we would still help tdf
  371. [ 2012.01.21 00:53:27 ] Phattecia > +1
  372. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:06 ] Darius III > What I did and what I am doing is new to eve. Never before has a 'pickup fleet' formed from crime and punishment been successfu;
  373. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:31 ] Captain Rivel > you havnt been invovled w/ incursions much have you?
  374. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:32 ] Darius III > Now with some notable successes, and more publicity, it will b every easy for me to form up 50 man fleets in a day
  375. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:44 ] Captain Rivel > over the last year 3 groups have tried what you are doing now
  376. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:50 ] Darius III > I have done all levels of incursions daily for months
  377. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:53 ] Captain Rivel > and you rank 3rd in terms of greif caused
  378. [ 2012.01.21 00:54:57 ] Phattecia > in that respect, "mebbe", but with killing high sec MOM's? this is like the 3rd or 4th time this exact thing has happened
  379. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:04 ] Darius III > thats ok I didn't come to cause grief
  380. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:12 ] Phattecia > riiiighhtttt
  381. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:33 ] Phattecia > the grief works into your publicity
  382. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:34 ] Darius III > Well then if thats what you believe, I cant change your mind
  383. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:47 ] Captain Rivel > there is something you have said in your forum posts that is wrong btw
  384. [ 2012.01.21 00:55:59 ] Darius III > Yes that is very true. In that sense of course I tried to cause grief. But not as an end product.
  385. [ 2012.01.21 00:56:08 ] Captain Rivel > you mention that btl and tdf control incursions and wont allow 3rd party fleets to kill moms, that is not the case
  386. [ 2012.01.21 00:56:13 ] Darius III > Captain Rivel, what is that?
  387. [ 2012.01.21 00:56:16 ] Phattecia > means justify ends?
  388. [ 2012.01.21 00:56:39 ] Captain Rivel > the only time we ban people for taking down moms is when they do it before the withdrawing phase
  389. [ 2012.01.21 00:56:44 ] Darius III > I dont think I have EVER said that, but if I did I would like to see it
  390. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:18 ] Captain Rivel > it was either you on the forum post when you were talkign about the campaign against incursion runners w/ you and krissada, not brick squad
  391. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:20 ] Darius III > Your bans do not affect my ability to spy on you, organize peolpe or anything that helps you by banning us
  392. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:22 ] Captain Rivel > or later in the post by neoshocker
  393. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:46 ] Phattecia > we see everything you guys do, just as well as you see what we do
  394. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:55 ] Phattecia > it works both ways
  395. [ 2012.01.21 00:57:58 ] Captain Rivel > banning is done to protect the players in teh channel, we know that its very easy to get alts into it, that comes w/ running a public channel
  396. [ 2012.01.21 00:58:02 ] Darius III > In fact the more people you ban, the more of those people that come to fleet to assist in killing/forcing the destruction of the MS
  397. [ 2012.01.21 00:58:19 ] Phattecia > we ban peeps that already support you
  398. [ 2012.01.21 00:58:24 ] Darius III > Because they want to prove something/exact revenge
  399. [ 2012.01.21 00:58:24 ] Phattecia > they are lost to us anyways
  400. [ 2012.01.21 00:58:45 ] Phattecia > and when they figure out, they would rather be in a channel like BTL Pub, its too late for them
  401. [ 2012.01.21 00:59:37 ] Captain Rivel > there was plenty of brick squad pilots who would fly incursions and were welcome into btl pub
  402. [ 2012.01.21 00:59:51 ] Captain Rivel > w/ your actions and involvment they are currently banned
  403. [ 2012.01.21 01:00:01 ] Phattecia > and then they come to us, say they are sorry, and we re add them
  404. [ 2012.01.21 01:00:16 ] Phattecia > which is turn, makes more work for us
  405. [ 2012.01.21 01:00:17 ] Darius III > With our successes, it will now be easier than ever to form fleets. Thats ok if they are banned, we are at war so often again that they have to use alts anyway
  406. [ 2012.01.21 01:00:26 ] Captain Rivel > it doesnt have to be forever but it wont go away until your campaign dies out
  407. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:00 ] Captain Rivel > both kill it with fire and skunkwork have been banned months before you involved bricksquad
  408. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:03 ] Darius III > Thats ok, again we will have wars for the next few months and I could care one iota about Brick being banned since war decced peole dont get into fleets anyway
  409. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:16 ] Captain Rivel > the only group that has been banned afterwards was bricksquad
  410. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:29 ] Darius III > The ban means nothihng whatsoever, please believe me
  411. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:49 ] Phattecia > [00:58:04] Darius III > In fact the more people you ban, the more of those people that come to fleet to assist in killing/forcing the destruction of the MS
  412. [ 2012.01.21 01:01:52 ] Phattecia > means nothing?
  413. [ 2012.01.21 01:02:23 ] Phattecia > or you were referring to RAWR only?
  414. [ 2012.01.21 01:02:24 ] Darius III > no no that you have banned Brick Squad. The more banned people the morew people that join the "illegal" MS fleets
  415. [ 2012.01.21 01:02:32 ] Phattecia > i thought so
  416. [ 2012.01.21 01:02:41 ] Darius III > Please ban Brivck Squad forever
  417. [ 2012.01.21 01:03:01 ] Phattecia > you may say that
  418. [ 2012.01.21 01:03:05 ] Phattecia > but you members dont
  419. [ 2012.01.21 01:03:10 ] Phattecia > *your
  420. [ 2012.01.21 01:03:54 ] Captain Rivel > illegal refers to the agreement and only applies to our channel, people seem to remember that we dont own incursions yet always bring up that our channels have power w/in incursions
  421. [ 2012.01.21 01:04:02 ] Darius III > Our members ARE FORCED TO USE ALTS SINCE WE WILL HAVE WAR FOREVER. Our guys are welcome to leave and come back in 1-2-500 days if they dont like the wars/bans/anything. Truely we dont care about being banned from your channels
  422. [ 2012.01.21 01:04:17 ] Captain Rivel > teh 2 are seperate yet are constantly merged
  423. [ 2012.01.21 01:04:24 ] Phattecia > duely noted sir
  424. [ 2012.01.21 01:04:55 ] Darius III > I really was hoping to end the 'illegal' fleets and let you guys get back to business. I really was
  425. [ 2012.01.21 01:05:09 ] Captain Rivel > what i want to understand is whats the point behind your campaign
  426. [ 2012.01.21 01:05:14 ] Captain Rivel > what is your goal and your focus
  427. [ 2012.01.21 01:05:26 ] Phattecia > just for shits and giggles, what would it take to end this?
  428. [ 2012.01.21 01:05:47 ] Darius III > Ah
  429. [ 2012.01.21 01:06:13 ] Darius III > I dont have any demands, and I couldnt "make it end" I could only take 40-60% of the guys off the table
  430. [ 2012.01.21 01:06:29 ] Phattecia > excllent
  431. [ 2012.01.21 01:06:38 ] Phattecia > now on to reivels question
  432. [ 2012.01.21 01:06:42 ] Phattecia > *rivels
  433. [ 2012.01.21 01:06:54 ] Darius III > I am succeptable to bribery on a personal level, now that I got what I wanted-a conference
  434. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:11 ] Phattecia > you will recieve no isk from us
  435. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:20 ] Captain Rivel > although our channels have carebears in them
  436. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:27 ] Captain Rivel > we are no such animal
  437. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:31 ] Darius III > My goal has been met. Get solid intel and rapport with the best in the incursion field, hear their ideas.
  438. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:32 ] Phattecia > this^
  439. [ 2012.01.21 01:07:57 ] Phattecia > well
  440. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:04 ] Phattecia > you got the best part right @ least lol
  441. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:16 ] Darius III > I would like to thank you guys for the information and for spending your time talking with me.
  442. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:20 ] Phattecia > mebbe the intel part
  443. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:27 ] Phattecia > but def NOT the rapport >:)
  444. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:40 ] Phattecia > thank you sir
  445. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:42 ] Darius III > I am very pleased with the outcome. I established rapport with my alts in your channels
  446. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:44 ] Phattecia > and
  447. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:48 ] Phattecia > fly wreckless!
  448. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:54 ] Darius III > Se you guys next week
  449. [ 2012.01.21 01:08:59 ] Phattecia > kthxbai
  450. [ 2012.01.21 01:09:01 ] Phattecia > ♥
  451. [ 2012.01.21 01:09:10 ] Darius III > Or tomorrow if we dont go to nullsec (we live in low BTW)
  452. [ 2012.01.21 01:09:12 ] Darius III > o/
  453. [ 2012.01.21 01:09:17 ] Phattecia > o/
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