Disaster Area - Today at 21:35
hey so this is outta the blue I guess but I'm just interested in speaking w/ different perspectives about some stuff relating to PP tiering... I know you're very good in all or almost all of the generations of ubers but don't think they're balanced and I know we disagree on a lot regarding tiering, but that's why ur interesting to ask I guess... why do u think most ubers players (in any gen except for RBY in my experience) think that their tier is balanced enough to basically be OU?
I'm discovering with this retiering thing that it seems that most people in later gens are quite binary about what they want out of their "OU" tier to either be smogon's OU (give or take tweaks around the edges) or Ubers and there's almost noone in between
Ardorin - Today at 21:35
i think
theres a difference
between balanced and fun
i love ubers because most ubers metas are so fun to play
but they are definitely not balanced and overcentralized
i mean for example
lugia
lugia would absolutely destroy 90% of SM OU offense alone
Disaster Area - Today at 21:37
hmm okay interesting. Overcentralization is something that's pretty clear as an organising principle for stuff, but balanced seems to be where people disagree. Like we tried in ADV to ban Kyogre and melle got Hack to come onto the forum to make a post about how ubers is basically perfectly balanced.
Ardorin - Today at 21:37
making a lot of mons useless
because
balance in ubers is very frail
you remove an element
and everything changes
Disaster Area - Today at 21:39
Surely you could argue if you remove an element and then play the tier hard for 2 years you might establish a new balance, as if that particular ubers pokemon you banned just wasn't actually released in that generation.
Ardorin - Today at 21:39
most of the times resulting in an unhealthy meta
that can work with some mons
Disaster Area - Today at 21:39
yea I don't think that's wrong necessarily, I think it depends on a lot of stuff but sure
Ardorin - Today at 21:39
however certain core mons
such as kyogre
are a huge backbone of the tier, and needed to keep a frail balance
you remove it
and you have to ban other 3/4 mons
Disaster Area - Today at 21:40
alright I see what you're saying with that
Ardorin - Today at 21:40
in the end you could probably have
Disaster Area - Today at 21:40
so you're basically saying that
even though ubers is not balanced enough to be OU
Ardorin - Today at 21:41
some tier between ou and ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 21:41
if u ban something from it in practice then u end up w something less balanced
Ardorin - Today at 21:41
that can keep some balance
like a "mini ubers"
Disaster Area - Today at 21:41
yea I think that's possible. I think for example in ADV that
latias even (without soul dew) is not even broken in adv ou as it currently stands
Ardorin - Today at 21:41
however it still has the overcentralization problem
so it would never be a good OU
Disaster Area - Today at 21:42
and I think that latios/mew/deo-n/lugia/ho-oh/wynaut(lol) are all worth testing but I could definitely see all of them except wynaut being broken
Ardorin - Today at 21:42
you are creating 2 ubers tiers
Disaster Area - Today at 21:42
sidenote yea it is silly that
wynaut is banned in adv ou
Ardorin - Today at 21:42
which is an interesting idea
but not if you make the mini ubers the main tier
in later gens you could probs have different "mini ubers" tiers
that are somewhat balanced
not easy to do tho
Disaster Area - Today at 21:43
I sorta see where ur coming from in a way... let me say I think that in gen 6 I think there are enough mons at that ubers power level that u can create a good balanced tier thats not too overcentralised for my taste but is marginally more overcentralised than OU with just a couple bans
gen 6 ubers minus primals/mega mence/shadow tag/geomancy
Ardorin - Today at 21:44
for example
Disaster Area - Today at 21:44
is pretty balanced and not overcentralised
but u do by the way that power levels work just by default have less options than OU
where u might have like 50 pokemon or so that are OU-worthy in smogon's oras ou say
u would have like 35 maybe that are OU-worthy in this OU
Ardorin - Today at 21:44
tiering gets harder
and harder
because the number of powerful mons
i bet you could make a balanced tier with a lot of current ubers in gen 6
better or worse than current OU?
idk
there are 2 approaches when dealing with OU
Disaster Area - Today at 21:45
yea i mean up t a point tiering just becomes a matter of taste + priors
Ardorin - Today at 21:46
a) banning everything broken
b) unban stuff and try to make banlist as short as possible
you are following approach b(edited)
which could theorically give an interesting tier
Disaster Area - Today at 21:46
i dont think so; what I want to do is start w/ nothing banned and then
ban everything that's broken
Ardorin - Today at 21:46
i dont see that working in older gens tho
adv - dpp at least
Disaster Area - Today at 21:47
when I was talking about latias in adv ou thats more a case of me knowing the gen well enough to know latias is not broken in adv ou + latias
Ardorin - Today at 21:47
(rby and gsc are obv)
there were talks about testing latias
in OU
Disaster Area - Today at 21:47
isa thinks gsc ubers is fine to be ou in that gen lol
Ardorin - Today at 21:47
no soul dew ofc
but thats just
Disaster Area - Today at 21:47
yea i know asta and undis think latias is not broken in adv ou
Ardorin - Today at 21:47
2/3 mons in the limbo
Disaster Area - Today at 21:47
ive played w it and got more unimpressed with it
the more i played w it
lol
Ardorin - Today at 21:48
mew
latias
Disaster Area - Today at 21:48
i think ttar > latias in adv ou + latias
Ardorin - Today at 21:48
are the main ones
Disaster Area - Today at 21:48
yea... u know the history btw right of adv ou how
originally rachi+celebi were banned and then
netbattle owners basically decided
Ardorin - Today at 21:48
we are not talking about a different tier tho
Disaster Area - Today at 21:48
they wanted them in
so they were in
my POV is that if the same was done w latias
it would still be in the tier today and people wouldnt think its broken
Ardorin - Today at 21:49
we are talking about 2/3 mons
Disaster Area - Today at 21:49
but instead it wasnt so the debate is very different
yea i see what ur saying
Ardorin - Today at 21:49
you could be right
Disaster Area - Today at 21:49
that in the end u would probably end up with
ou plus a couple mons
if u did what i wanted to do in adv
and i am 100% fine w that and I would honestly like that
the trouble im finding is that its a chore just to get people to agree that kyogre is broken and should be banned
lol
like I do get tho the point ur making that
adv ubers minus kyogre is less balanced
than adv ubers
but also i think its obvious that kyogre/ubers aren't balanced even tho removing it
makes it worse not better in a vacuum
so what im trying to figure out is I guess how do I make a tiering system in practice where
kyogre would get banned in adv ubers
without just copypasting ou
well i mean not to say
Ardorin - Today at 21:51
in adv you cant
really
Disaster Area - Today at 21:51
i would mind if ou is the end goal
but like in gen 5 say so
i dont know about gen 5 ubers enough to say any mon is broken
Ardorin - Today at 21:52
you would have to ban groudon
then deoxys
Disaster Area - Today at 21:52
but in gen 5 our people on here were 100% fine with
Ardorin - Today at 21:52
then lugia and ho-oh
and rayquaza
Disaster Area - Today at 21:52
BW 1U being BW Ubers
Ardorin - Today at 21:52
you would have
adv ou with mew, latias, maybe latios
(soul dew ban ofc)+
Disaster Area - Today at 21:53
but yea my problem is not
that in adv say
that we end up w adv ou
or something close to it
the problem is it seems to me either
we could just start with OU which is one option but I obv dont know that and u know that
or we can start with Ubers
in which case we cant get the community
to agree to ban kyogre
so idk, how do I make the community agree that kyogre is broken and should be banned
since everyone who plays adv ubers bar like u and bkc think its basically fine
do u think maybe if we also enforce bans for stuff that's clearly overcentralising
would have a chance of fixing it?
Ardorin - Today at 21:59
maybe
but hard to say
Disaster Area - Today at 21:59
the thing w overcentralisation is then u get people moaning about how
that will / should affect rby/gsc
Disaster Area - Today at 22:00
i dont know so much what the right thing to do in gsc tiering is, but in rby in every rby tier ever u always have at least 1 mon at near 100% usage and often 3 or 4
obv it's dumb to ban tauros in rby ou say
but if u have overcentralisation as a criteria then u do u think u just have to
outright exclude RBY or do u have to make the argument
go beyond usage
like i've heard people talking about lax in gsc ou as being
"centralising in the teambuilder but not in the games"
meaning that u virtually always have to run it on your teams but in practice it might not end up doing much in any given game