TobiKohai - Yesterday at 9:28 PM
Ok sorry I just wanted to talk to you both in the same place rather than copy and pasting between the two of you
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:28 PM
coolio
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:28 PM
Sure, that's fine with me.
First off let me say I don't intend for this to be an argument
I'd rather we just present our cases
Without back and forth interruption
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 9:30 PM
Yes sure go ahead, Piccolo you go first because you posted in the DM first ^^
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:36 PM
Okay.  So my understanding of the issue is that Slap would like it to be disallowed for artists to post commission prices in creators-corner, in the interest of making sure there's no unhealthy competition between our artists.
While I understand this and it is a good-intentioned idea, I feel that it is a presumptive and limiting rule for us that is rooted essentially in fear.
I think just as there is potential for those bad things, there is also potential for good things and more cooperation to come out of it.  I think if anything bad comes out of it, we could learn and adapt from it.  I think the potential good is just as important to remember as the potential bad, and I'd rather us give the good a chance and be ready to learn from the bad than deny the possibility of good out of fear for the bad.
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 9:38 PM
Hmm I see, I personally like the idea of advertising Artists in the Content creator corner, and advertising comissions can be great I feel, but I think that the prices between artists might become a point of contests I guess? What was your opinion Pandas?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:38 PM
Actually, may I interject and say what I am trying to argue about so that we are both on the same page?
Alright well, here's the core issue that I see
The Content Creator's channel on MSC should be seperated for the conducting of business. That's what I'm arguing.
The thing about commission prices is a secondary argument that I do not think is as important(edited)
So, here's what I'm defining business as: it is the act of trying to sell a product to an individual or individuals, in this case, the creation of art.
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 9:42 PM
Oh I see, so the problem is that people should not be discussing actually getting comissions in CC rather than people posting comission prices? I do actually agree yeah, content creators should try and keep buissness like that to PMs, maybe start in there nad then move to private afterwards?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:44 PM
Personally I believe that the "business" portion start the moment you begin to discuss prices. But we can hardly talk about that if we do not agree on the core concept, which is: should business be allowed in the CC channel.
So with that in mind, do you have any additional points albro?
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:47 PM
I think that detailed business should indeed be taken to private chat, but I do not agree with being unable to discuss pricing in the channel.  We currently do not even really have a way to let the many people in the channel know that we are even offering commissions, and limiting our discussion on them would make it even worse.

There's a big opportunity to let our artists get a lot of commissions from a community that large, but if they aren't allowed to talk about it then it becomes quite difficult.

I think discussing your commissions and their pricing should be fine, but discussing the details of a specific commission should be kept between the artist and the commissioner.
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:49 PM
Alright, then we agree on the core concept and can instead can refine it to "Where should we draw the line?"
So I'll state my side.
Well, actually how about we discuss what the purpose of the channel actually is, because that matter when you decide where to draw the line
Here's how I see it: The content creator's channel is made for self-promotion, sharing and viewing each other's art, and receiving/giving critiques to encourage growth.
Do you agree/disagree?
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:54 PM
I agree on those points, though that does not mean I draw the line on those being the only points.  I also think "self-promotion" can very easily fall into line with the argument I proposed in my last message.
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:56 PM
Alright, so then with that in mind, I want to say that self-promotion does include letting people know that you are open to doing commissions, but when it comes to the actual selling part of it, it crosses over into "business"
It's one thing for taco bell to say "We serve tacos at our restraunt" and another for it to say "We sell tacos for 3-for-3 dollars, come down now while the offer lasts"
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:57 PM
Would you not say that the intention behind "self promotion" is business in and of itself in most cases?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 9:59 PM
self promotion leads to business, but the actual business part of it is not self promotion because at that point it is conducted on an individual level rather than a community level
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 9:59 PM
Okay, so "business" is individual and not community-level?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:00 PM
It can involve a community but that isn't the type of business that I'm concerned about since we're not large-scale corporations(edited)
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:00 PM
So you're only concerned about individual business?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:02 PM
Alright, I see your point
It is community business to advertise your prices openly for all to see
So I suppose that including commission prices would be self-promotion since you are not targeting an individual
However, when it comes to inquiry, this is not the case
So, if I changed it instead to be "It's fine if someone advertises that they are doing commission prices for x amount, but when someone inquires about what they are selling it should be conducted outside of the CC channel"
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:08 PM
If the information is available to the community already, then it should be fine to share that with them, correct?  Further discussion should be taken to PMs of course, but I don't see any reason to allow promotion to the community as a whole and not allow the same exact message to be sent in response to someone asking
That seems like it would be an arbitrary rule that would either not be enforced because of its pointlessness or would have a lot of backlash if it WAS enforced because of its pointlessness
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:09 PM
I should clarify that the person who is inquiring is just asking generally
like "hey can someone do my commission"(edited)
then, in response, someone might post their commission prices
At that point, they are trying to sell an individual something.
And at that point, it introduces business competition
Which is not what the CC channel is for.
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:11 PM
Okay I can see that as maybe being an enforcable rule.  If someone is asking who is open for commissions, the response should not be posting your prices.  Perhaps we can add an extra role for the artists to show they are open for commissions?
So if someone asks, we can direct them to the list of artists that are open
And from there they can directly address the artist they want
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:12 PM
That would be great, and totally does promote our artists
While also not creating tension between us in scrambles to be the one to convince a customer to buy from us
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:12 PM
is tobi even listening anymore hehe
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 10:13 PM
Sorry
yes
But I was playing games and you guys seemed to be getting along fine :3
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:13 PM
Considering the idea to create a new role this probly involves you a little more heavily now tobi
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
Yeah. The reason I see for creating such a role is this
If someone comes inquiring, "who will do my drawing for me"
It immediately puts commissioning artists under pressure to sell to this guy
If you don't respond, you are at a disadvantage
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
Our current link to the artist imgur is already a bit hard to find (you have to click on the channel message, you can't see it until you view the whole thing)(edited)
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
They will likely not buy from you, instead of someone who directly advertises to you.
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
it's pinned as well isn't it?
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
If we allow that kind of commerce to take place, then it creates tension between artists
Because the first one to respond would be at an advantage
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
It is pinned, yes
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:16 PM
You'd get people potentially camping the channel just to sell something to someone
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:16 PM
Honestly discord's pins and stuff are weird.  For anyone new to discord they wont be able to figure it out lol
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:16 PM
And that's not what I (hopefully we) want
What I'd like to be encouraged: Artists who are active in our community to attract the attention of people who browse the channel, and end up earning commissions from them
What I would like to be discouraged: People who show up just to pull in another buyer
Ideally, we could make someone's commissioning status and prices easily available in a place outside the chatbox of CC
That way, if someone wants to commission, they know who is commissioning for how much without giving too much advantage to the first responder.(edited)
Instead, it would give advantage to those who are active within our community, because they have built a repoire and the person who wants a commission may recognize them
We could potentially make another pinned message with a link to this information
Or maybe we could make a bot command
that command could be put in the art requests channel perhaps.
What do you think tobi?
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
Yes I did want to do this before, but at the time I last suggested people didn't want it, I am happy to implement such a function
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
Cool.
Glad we could come to some measure of agreement albro
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
So basically a comission list somewhere that is easily viewable? Perhaps a channel or hmmm, a bot command might work
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 10:59 PM
it would be really robust if we content creators could assign ourselves the role of "Open for Commissions" and there was a bot command that listed every member with that role currently(edited)
Though IDK if discord is good enough to handle stuff like that
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
Yeah. Ideally it would link to their commissions page so that the bot doesnt need contant updates beyond who has the role
MrPiccolo - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
like i know some very limited programming and could make something that did that kind of thing but it wouldnt integrate with discord
i don't know how much control you have over that kind of stuff with discord
but yeah storing a database of all the commission pages and what-not for every content creator and linking those pages for every creator that has the "Open for Commissions" role in theory isn't that complex
TobiKohai - Yesterday at 11:10 PM
Hmm, I'll have to talk it through with some of the other admins and see if they have any solutions
I Slap Pandas - Yesterday at 11:11 PM
Cool. Thanks for being the intermediary tobi
I'll leave the chat now