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Age of Strife Spiritual Successor Chat

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Nov 30th, 2015
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  1. [18:55] == George_ [webchat@24-158-157-176.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #AgeofStrife
  2. [18:55] <KlavoHunter> Reason to not have Mirande in direct charge: She might need to fight daemons and go into a 30 year coma :P
  3. [18:56] <George_> Personally I was opposed to sending her out in the field again
  4. [18:57] <KlavoHunter> The way we're doing it, nobody is surprised if the Court Wizard needs to go do their own thing for wizard reasons
  5. [18:57] <George_> but that's definitely a point in favor of either not ruling or not going out on adventures
  6. [18:57] <@SuperSonicSound> Honestly even as things stand unless it's another greater daemon Mirande is just going to eat it and carry on.
  7. [18:57] <George_> tell that to the mutant soldiers
  8. [18:58] <@E3> Exactly. I mean, like I said in thread, I've always figured Mirande's characterization to this point seemed to indicate she was more inclined to go off on her own and do spooky stuff anyway. Anna's the one who's always been the center of attention. We only noticed Mirande because we can see her ridiculous stat sheet :p
  9. [18:58] <@SuperSonicSound> That's the crit system being silly though :p
  10. [18:58] <George_> we're unlikely to lose and unlikely to die when we lose, but if it's 1 in 20 then it's GOING to happen in the next 500 years if we go out once a decade
  11. [18:58] <@SuperSonicSound> E3 that's really not accurate though :<
  12. [18:58] <KlavoHunter> What if we switch to playing as Anna?
  13. [18:58] <@SuperSonicSound> Mirande was cultivated for leadership early on
  14. [18:58] <@SuperSonicSound> and then we turned her into a psyker
  15. [18:59] <George_> Switching to Anna doesn't fix the problems
  16. [18:59] <@E3> supersonicsound isn't it? Anna was very socially involved from early on, Mirande sort of kept more to herself and researched gravetender stuff. Field commander vs. forward observer. Etc. etc. I can definitely see hints of it throughout
  17. [18:59] <George_> and is very unsatisfying for a lot of people
  18. [18:59] <@SuperSonicSound> Anna was focused on in the sense of "Oh my god, Max turned her into a paranoid delusional AHHHH"
  19. [19:00] <@E3> I don't think that's necessarily true George_ I'd be perfectly happy with playing as Anna. Although right now it looks like it's going to be "no viewpoint character most of the time, switch to one during appropriate situations" as AN's currently thinking of it
  20. [19:00] == Odysseus2099 [webchat@70.15.91.172] has joined #AgeofStrife
  21. [19:00] <@SuperSonicSound> I'm kind of worried about that actually
  22. [19:00] <@SuperSonicSound> As much as I like Amber age
  23. [19:00] <George_> Well, to fix the problems, playing with Anna would mean Mirande goes on a bus
  24. [19:00] <@SuperSonicSound> I can't help but admit I don't feel any real connection to much of the characters.
  25. [19:00] <George_> yeah it's hard to sink your claws in to
  26. [19:01] == AbbyNormal [webchat@c-98-249-6-51.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  27. [19:01] <George_> there are characters and mechanics, but it's not the same as with Age of Strife
  28. [19:01] == Vel [webchat@pool-173-72-178-96.clppva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  29. [19:02] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-18b8a0c2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  30. [19:02] <Aranfan> hullo?
  31. [19:02] <@E3> Quick everyone be quiet, pretend we're not here
  32. [19:02] <@SuperSonicSound> Welcome
  33. [19:02] * SuperSonicSound coughs
  34. [19:02] <Aranfan> I see you Ekans Ekans Ekans
  35. [19:02] <Vel> Ignore me. There is nobody here.
  36. [19:02] * SuperSonicSound fades into the background
  37. [19:03] * E3 goes to ground
  38. [19:03] == powerofmind [webchat@c-73-248-145-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  39. [19:03] <powerofmind> ooo
  40. [19:03] <@SuperSonicSound> Also on the dice front, I think exploding dice shouldn't be more d100's
  41. [19:03] <Aranfan> hey
  42. [19:04] <George_> yeah I threw a suggestion to that effect in the thread sss
  43. [19:04] <Aranfan> I can agree to only 100s exploding
  44. [19:04] <Phantrosity> I think exploding dice should be nerfed
  45. [19:04] <Phantrosity> I think keeping it only being an addtional d100 on a 100
  46. [19:04] <Phantrosity> works
  47. [19:04] <Phantrosity> either that or having some alternate explosion mechanic
  48. [19:04] <Phantrosity> reroll your next failure or something
  49. [19:04] <George_> makes it an arcane feature that rarely happens though
  50. [19:04] <Vel> Sure
  51. [19:04] <Vel> But it's supposed to be.
  52. [19:05] <Aranfan> wait, gtg sorry guys
  53. [19:05] <Phantrosity> given how many dice we rool
  54. [19:05] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-18b8a0c2.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  55. [19:05] <Phantrosity> not that arcane
  56. [19:05] <George_> well it wasn't in the original implementation
  57. [19:05] <@SuperSonicSound> One of the things you could with criticals is instead of them boosting absolute values of the result
  58. [19:05] <Vel> Also point.
  59. [19:05] <powerofmind> that's true, one in a hundred times you should see an explosion
  60. [19:05] <@E3> The way I figure, make it so that stronger characters have a smaller explosion range, since they're already hitting insane results as a baseline. Or add a confirm roll.
  61. [19:05] <@SuperSonicSound> is give it a lateral boost in effect.
  62. [19:05] <@SuperSonicSound> make criticals more than just "Sword harder"
  63. [19:05] <@SuperSonicSound> whilst constraining them
  64. [19:05] <powerofmind> but that's a little silly E3
  65. [19:05] == AcademiaNut [webchat@S0106c8fb267f0146.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  66. [19:05] <@E3> well that's how it HAS been SSS. That was part of the problem :p
  67. [19:05] <George_> I was thinking just scale down the size die it adds
  68. [19:05] <@E3> AN's here!
  69. [19:05] == mode/#AgeofStrife [+o AcademiaNut] by SuperSonicSound
  70. [19:05] <powerofmind> welcome to your chat!
  71. [19:05] <KlavoHunter> HE COMES!
  72. [19:06] <powerofmind> :P
  73. [19:06] <@AcademiaNut> I am indeed here
  74. [19:06] <Vel> Present arms.
  75. [19:06] <Vel> Etc
  76. [19:06] <@E3> Hey boss :p
  77. [19:06] <@AcademiaNut> 'Allo 'allo
  78. [19:06] <@SuperSonicSound> What I mean by that though is give criticals a small lateral component instead of allowing them to magnify the effect of an action.
  79. [19:06] <@E3> Now we finally have a context where you can't dodge our questions about mechanics. Quick, change the room name to #AmberAge
  80. [19:06] <Vel> haha
  81. [19:06] <powerofmind> like affecting something other than the immediate roll
  82. [19:07] <@SuperSonicSound> Potentially it really depends ultimately how you want to constrain outcomes or if you do
  83. [19:07] <KlavoHunter> *Ordained Joe rolls 7 7's, summons Gardener of Nurgle*
  84. [19:07] <George_> you mean like adding an extra effect, such as eating the attacker's soul instead of just defending your own?
  85. [19:08] <Vel> That adds a whole new dimension to the complexity of deciding when a certain exploding dice
  86. [19:08] <Vel> is better or not
  87. [19:08] <@AcademiaNut> Thanks to Admiral Skippy I have been shown a more detailed look at Edge of Empire and I am liking the idea of having some way to separate out successes, failures, advantages, and complications
  88. [19:08] <powerofmind> do you have something in mind?
  89. [19:08] <Vel> If every exploding dice has different effects according to what you're doing that will get complex
  90. [19:08] <KlavoHunter> Edge of the Empire is *amazing*. It is kinda easy to farm triumphs sometimes.
  91. [19:09] <George_> well every roll is already a vague rule of cool thing so currently exploding dice don't change the character of what's going on
  92. [19:09] <Vel> Well yeah.
  93. [19:09] <George_> I'm not familiar with Edge of Empire so it's hard to comment on, but it does sound interested to have advantages and complications rather than just successes and failures
  94. [19:09] <KlavoHunter> (Or maybe my party has just had good luck when rolling 4 yellows)
  95. [19:10] <@SuperSonicSound> I've not had any interaction with edge of empire sadly so I'm not well positioned to talk about the system
  96. [19:10] <Vel> Well, Edge of Empire is a FFG game, but
  97. [19:10] <Vel> It's well executed
  98. [19:10] <Vel> Especially for a FFG game
  99. [19:10] <@SuperSonicSound> A first! :3
  100. [19:10] == Alectai [webchat@70.50.93.236] has joined #AgeofStrife
  101. [19:10] <Vel> Yes.
  102. [19:10] <Vel> Indeed.
  103. [19:10] <Alectai> Good Evening
  104. [19:10] <Alectai> Internet Friends
  105. [19:10] <Alectai> And enemies
  106. [19:10] <Vel> It's probably the only FFG game which is -not-
  107. [19:10] <Vel> A mess.
  108. [19:10] <George_> what's a roll look like for an action under it
  109. [19:10] <Vel> And 'lo, Alectai
  110. [19:11] <@E3> Yeah I know basically nothing about Edge of Empire. First I've ever heard of it.
  111. [19:11] <George_> welcome
  112. [19:11] <George_> klavo said he's used it
  113. [19:11] <@AcademiaNut> Okay, here is the system I am thinking of for dice roll resolution: you have both a standard d100 roll and a number of bonus dice. You add everything together and check against a target value, but you also check the bonus dice for patterns
  114. [19:11] <powerofmind> yeah I'm trying to find some of Edge of Empire pdf's so I can get some context of what AN is looking for
  115. [19:11] <@E3> I will say that I'm really fond of how the dice system has worked so far, and hope that there aren't TOO many divergences from it. It's been pretty broadly applicable, just needs some balance changes. I'm open to hearing about the EoE system though
  116. [19:11] <powerofmind> ohhhh
  117. [19:11] <powerofmind> that's really good
  118. [19:11] <@AcademiaNut> So stuff like doubles, triples, sequences, stuff like that can generate additional 'complications'
  119. [19:11] <George_> I'm leery of the patterns thing, since they are more common than we feel like they are and get blown out of proportion due to that
  120. [19:12] <Vel> Yeah the patterns
  121. [19:12] <Vel> I mean totally ignoring the 7 incidence
  122. [19:12] <@E3> Okay that sounds like it'd be somewhat along the same spirit as the current dice system, just a bit more formalized. I like the sound of that
  123. [19:12] <Vel> The patterns do sometimes cause things that aren't immediately apparent
  124. [19:12] <@E3> Yeah
  125. [19:12] <Vel> Or intuitive.
  126. [19:12] <Vel> Also obviously the 7 incident but
  127. [19:12] <Vel> Yeah.
  128. [19:13] <Alectai> Hah
  129. [19:13] <Alectai> Yeah, that's not a bad way of handling things
  130. [19:13] <powerofmind> well yeah, patterns already play a strong role in the existing system AN already uses
  131. [19:13] <Alectai> One system I made up was "1dX, but on a critical, you double your skill modifier"
  132. [19:13] <powerofmind> this just offers up an easier way of controlling them
  133. [19:13] <@AcademiaNut> The intent of stuff like this would be to open up things like say "Okay, you succeeded on your research check, but you got a triple 1 on the bonus dice, so you need to go complete Project X before you can continue on with it"
  134. [19:13] <Vel> Yeah of course, I'm just saying that they can be unintuitive.
  135. [19:14] <Vel> Or weird.
  136. [19:14] <powerofmind> they can be, but consider for a second that this controls power spikes like mirande really well
  137. [19:14] <Alectai> So we had a game that scaled from 1-10 for skill levels, and the die roll resolution was 1d20
  138. [19:14] <@SuperSonicSound> I'm actually not really seeing what's different so far from the previous system, I mean apart from giving more prevalence to patterns on the result.
  139. [19:14] <George_> I feel like any triple would end up being a special circumstance rather than just a few of them
  140. [19:14] <powerofmind> instead of giving Mirande +200 to her rolls, she gets a bunch of 'bonus dice' which offers the potential to have complications in a roll that we'd otherwise not se
  141. [19:15] <Alectai> So someone who was absurdly, ridiculously talented would never find themselves being capable of doing less than completely acceptable
  142. [19:15] <@E3> AcademiaNut what I really like about that is in situations where you have a lot of bonus dice (like say a powerful Psyker taking the action) it opens it up to much bigger bonus successes and complications, but either way it's something weirder. Which is both consistent with the source material AND the results we've seen thus far
  143. [19:15] <Vel> You do end up adding extra variance though
  144. [19:15] <Vel> Which isn't necessarily optimal
  145. [19:15] <powerofmind> that's a good thing
  146. [19:15] <Alectai> Still, the idea of "1d00, plus extra dice depending on supernatural gimmicks" isn't bad
  147. [19:15] <Vel> Sort of
  148. [19:15] <Vel> Some amount of variance is nice to avoid 'always succeeding'
  149. [19:15] <powerofmind> roll a d100 + 200 is absolutely non-varied
  150. [19:15] <Alectai> Say, you'd get... 1d50 or something by default, but if you're Mirande, you can make it 2d50, at the risk of doubles invoking Warp Phemoneana
  151. [19:15] <George_> but mirande is liable to have 10 extra dice if an exceptional person ends up with 3
  152. [19:16] <@E3> SuperSonicSound basically it still means that someone with extreme power will always succeed- but a lot of the time weird shit will happen, for good or for ill.
  153. [19:16] <Alectai> Or you can covert that 2d50 to 2d100 at the cost of guaranteeing phenomena and having an uncomfortably high chance of Perils
  154. [19:16] <powerofmind> yes she is, but the extra dice don't apply linearly to a given roll
  155. [19:16] <George_> and then if it's all the same number it never applies and if it's just triples it is super common for her
  156. [19:16] <Alectai> While stuff like general training and competence are what basic modifiers are for
  157. [19:16] <powerofmind> let's look at the hypothetical 'changer of ways' scenario with this system
  158. [19:16] <@SuperSonicSound> 'E3 Yes but that's not strictly a good thing?
  159. [19:16] <Vel> Not bad, Alectai
  160. [19:17] <Vel> and eh
  161. [19:17] <Alectai> Because skill never really goes awa
  162. [19:17] <@E3> SuperSonicSound well it makes sense for any time psyker powers are involved, for sure.
  163. [19:17] <Alectai> But magic can backfire
  164. [19:17] <@SuperSonicSound> How do I put this, for some situations that really shouldn't be the case
  165. [19:17] <Alectai> On the other hand, skill alone only goes so far
  166. [19:17] <Alectai> Again, one way I like doing it is setting up "Tiers"
  167. [19:17] <@SuperSonicSound> Also for instance with psyker powers, didn't we for instance take great pains to have Mirande take a bunch of traits to mitigate and reduce warp side effects?
  168. [19:17] <George_> yeah I think skill should limit the amount of weird flukes personally
  169. [19:18] <Alectai> Which is to say "Even if you're technically better due to shenanagans, you're still incapable of crossing this line because your body literally cannot follow through"
  170. [19:18] <Vel> Yeah
  171. [19:18] <George_> because you have an ingrained practiced way you do things
  172. [19:18] <@E3> AcademiaNut I do agree with SuperSonicSound to a degree. If it's just a standard research roll, someone having more bonus dice should really just increase the chances of success but not the chances of complications. They're scientists, not Sparks.
  173. [19:18] <Vel> IE: random mutants beat you up beacuse weirdass flukes
  174. [19:18] <@AcademiaNut> Well, there was also another piece I was toying with, to keep some of the original skill system. I was thinking that there would also be a skill number that most humans would have between 1-30 that would also provide a floor for. The idea would be that if you rolled less than your floor, you could use that value instead of the roll if it would get you over the DC with the bonus die, but you automatically get a complication
  175. [19:18] <@SuperSonicSound> Also maybe we should let AN actually hash out his vision before we try and tear it apart?
  176. [19:18] <Alectai> Like, for instance, again, going back to that skill 1-10 thing
  177. [19:18] <Vel> Tiers can sort of work though
  178. [19:18] <Vel> Well we're not really tearing it apart yet
  179. [19:18] <@E3> SuperSonicSound seems fair :p
  180. [19:18] <Vel> But true
  181. [19:18] <@SuperSonicSound> give him a chance to lay it out a bit more :)
  182. [19:18] <George_> What if more powers adds more dice and more skill makes the dice bigger?
  183. [19:19] <Alectai> Humans would be capped at, say, 6, assuming you are literally the best of the best. Even if your actual rating is higher, you're limited by the hardware you're operating on
  184. [19:19] <George_> then if you are unskilled and using 8 powers, crazy shit happens, and if you're really skilled with three powers it's very rare
  185. [19:19] <Vel> To some extent warhammer involves breaking human limits as a thing thoughh
  186. [19:19] <Alectai> So while in times of peace and meditation, you can technically come up with things of genius, in times of exigency, you're simply incapable of exceeding your limits without some kind of major modification
  187. [19:19] <@SuperSonicSound> even normal humans operate way out of normal human limits
  188. [19:19] <Alectai> Like, again, that system? One of the reasons Space Marines are scary is because they're Cap 8
  189. [19:19] <Vel> Yeah
  190. [19:19] <@E3> AcademiaNut I know the skill system is getting reworked, but I kind of hope you keep the traits largely the same. I really like how most of those are set up.
  191. [19:20] <@AcademiaNut> I think I will keep some of it, but rework it a bit
  192. [19:20] <@SuperSonicSound> ciaphas cain regularly outswords actual chaos space marines and orc warbosses for instance so hard capping rolls based on that seems a little iffy
  193. [19:20] <Alectai> He doesn't actually /beat/ them though, so much as "Avoids Dying"
  194. [19:20] <Alectai> Until Jurgen shows up with his Melta
  195. [19:20] <powerofmind> SSS AN isn't actually saying that, though
  196. [19:20] <@SuperSonicSound> No he actually beats them as well
  197. [19:20] <@SuperSonicSound> @powerofmind I know
  198. [19:20] <Vel> There are some other regular humans who do some pretty ridiculous feats too
  199. [19:21] <@E3> AcademiaNut if personal combat gets removed I will cut you :| I demand to see Mirande wrestling a Space Marine with no active powers some day >.>
  200. [19:21] <Vel> Even if Cain is the most obvious example
  201. [19:21] <Vel> Oh you.
  202. [19:21] <Alectai> The Ork Warboss for instance? He didn't beat him in a sword fight, he just avoided dying until it got in close and he shoved his laspistol into it's eye and fired\
  203. [19:21] <Vel> That doesn't exceptionally reduce the level of required skill/badassery though
  204. [19:21] <George_> It is interesting AN; sometimes I think I'd rather fail than introduce a complication though
  205. [19:21] <Vel> That's still pretty ridiculous
  206. [19:21] <@AcademiaNut> Oh, oh, duh, I know how to smooth out some of the 'more dice = more weirdness' thing. Every couple of extra dice and couple of special abilities should be 'complication negators'
  207. [19:22] <powerofmind> Rolled 100 + 97 + 61 + 76 = 336 HOLY FUCK!
  208. [19:22] <Alectai> Yeah, I'm not saying Cain isn't absolutely ridiculous, it's just that he makes up for it by cheating
  209. [19:22] <powerofmind> Let's take that roll apart
  210. [19:22] == Aranfan [webchat@ip-64-134-48-125.public.wayport.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  211. [19:22] <@E3> AcademiaNut THAT makes a lot of sense, and actually meshes in really nicely with a lot of the traits Mirande was taking and gaining access to towards the end for psyker stabilizing stuff.
  212. [19:22] <powerofmind> and see what that looks like with EoE
  213. [19:22] <powerofmind> AN
  214. [19:22] <Aranfan> am back
  215. [19:22] <Aranfan> wwhat did I miss?
  216. [19:22] <Vel> AN arrived
  217. [19:22] <George_> yeah I like the idea of having a stability roll
  218. [19:22] <Alectai> Aran: Theorycrafting
  219. [19:22] <Vel> We started talking mechanics
  220. [19:22] <Vel> Etc.
  221. [19:22] <@SuperSonicSound> @aranfan some stuff
  222. [19:22] <powerofmind> what kind of bonus dice would you give Mirande for the changer of ways possession roll?
  223. [19:22] <George_> that you have to botch to have things actually go terribly wrong rather than just fail
  224. [19:22] <@SuperSonicSound> Assuming I make it to the end of the chat I'll post up a pastebin of everything
  225. [19:23] <Aranfan> thank you SSS
  226. [19:23] <powerofmind> She has the actual roll, a 100, so it's automatically awesome, but then she needs her bonus dice
  227. [19:23] <@AcademiaNut> Let's see here, if we were to go back to the Changer of Ways Incident, I would keep the d100 rolls the same, and still allow an explosion on a natural 100
  228. [19:23] <powerofmind> alrighty
  229. [19:23] <George_> 97 is the same as getting a 20 on a d20
  230. [19:24] <powerofmind> and she would have X bonus 'willpower advantage' dice
  231. [19:24] <George_> if there's a bonus die of around that size that's important
  232. [19:24] <powerofmind> we'll assume they went pretty well
  233. [19:24] <@AcademiaNut> Then let's assume she had 6 bonus dice for Willpower there
  234. [19:24] <powerofmind> and X amount of 'heroic advantage' dice
  235. [19:24] <powerofmind> because let's face it
  236. [19:24] <powerofmind> it's a hero unit
  237. [19:24] <George_> those might be wrapped in with those 6
  238. [19:24] <Vel> Yeah I think
  239. [19:25] <powerofmind> true
  240. [19:25] <Vel> Hero unit stuff is wrapped up in having
  241. [19:25] <powerofmind> either way
  242. [19:25] <Vel> Extra willpower
  243. [19:25] <Vel> Aka raw badassery.
  244. [19:25] <powerofmind> we look at the new roll
  245. [19:25] <Aranfan> what size are these extra dice?
  246. [19:25] <powerofmind> 100+97 for the actual check
  247. [19:25] <powerofmind> + 6 'willpower' dice
  248. [19:25] <powerofmind> normally this would just be an awesome possession block
  249. [19:26] <George_> what'd the changer of ways roll to possess us
  250. [19:26] <powerofmind> nothing
  251. [19:26] <@E3> It doesn't matter, we exploded to >300 to blow it the fuck up xD that's a soul eatin'
  252. [19:26] <Aranfan> IIRC it wasn't an opposed roll
  253. [19:26] <George_> ah right okay
  254. [19:26] <@E3> yeah, it was just a check against an invisible set of scaling DC's IIRC
  255. [19:26] <George_> I think 197 might already be more than just an awesome possession block
  256. [19:27] <Vel> Invisible set of scaling DC is hard to
  257. [19:27] <Vel> really
  258. [19:27] <Vel> Compare on ofc
  259. [19:27] <powerofmind> In 99.999% of circumstances
  260. [19:27] <George_> scaling dcs that aren't really decided in advance at my guess
  261. [19:27] <powerofmind> accidentally killing a daemon that possesses you does nothing but kill the daemon
  262. [19:27] <powerofmind> but those six willpower dice?
  263. [19:27] <George_> since it's less work to just eyeball where the roll actually fell
  264. [19:27] <powerofmind> all of them were 6's!
  265. [19:28] <George_> that's not commensurate with the unlikeliness of the incident as it was though
  266. [19:28] <Vel> Haha.
  267. [19:28] <Aranfan> Willpower dice are d6 then I assume?
  268. [19:28] <Alectai> With regards to Chaosy Stuff, again, that system I played gives Chaos what I call "Stupid Dice Tricks", for better or worse
  269. [19:28] <@SuperSonicSound> Aranfan nothing has been decided yet
  270. [19:28] <@SuperSonicSound> I think the numbers are spitballs
  271. [19:28] <powerofmind> AN simply must do something crazy to support how this went for Mirande's dice
  272. [19:28] <Vel> the d6 was a joke on chaos numbers I think
  273. [19:28] <Alectai> Since it's 1d20, the way we have it is "In addition to 1s and 20s being Crit Fail/Success. They also have their God's Sacred Number as a bonus critsuccess, but the opposing God's Sacred Number as a bonus critfail"
  274. [19:28] == Skippeh [~kvirc@88-106-246-196.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #AgeofStrife
  275. [19:28] <George_> but yeah we can't spitball the example really without an idea how large the willpower dice are
  276. [19:28] <Vel> Ah, d20s
  277. [19:28] <Vel> Okay.
  278. [19:29] <Alectai> And then actual Greater Daemons have the option of deploying a secondary Stupid Dice Trick which is dependent on which one it is
  279. [19:29] <powerofmind> possibly, yeah
  280. [19:29] <Vel> That might work, but d20s are
  281. [19:29] <powerofmind> but as this was a possession check
  282. [19:29] <Vel> Well they have less room for minor variance
  283. [19:29] <@AcademiaNut> Yo Skippeh
  284. [19:29] <Vel> And this isn't an actual tabletop game
  285. [19:29] <Skippeh> Hi AN!
  286. [19:29] <powerofmind> and we critically succeeded well enough to instantly kill the possessor
  287. [19:29] <Alectai> Tzeentch for instance? "On an odd number, the check automatically fails, on an even, it automatically critically succeeds"
  288. [19:29] <Vel> So it's not like gigantic dice are a problem really
  289. [19:29] <Vel> And yo, Skippy.
  290. [19:29] <Alectai> Nurgle? "Set the random value to 10"
  291. [19:29] <@AcademiaNut> I was thinking of using d10s for the bonus dice, but switching up the size could also be a way to produce variation
  292. [19:30] == Aranfan [webchat@ip-64-134-48-125.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  293. [19:30] <powerofmind> d10's seem like a good idea for MOST bonus dice, yeah
  294. [19:30] <@E3> AcademiaNut d100s when it's a psyker or otherwise warp spookiness action, for sure.
  295. [19:30] <Alectai> Basically, for better or worse, Nurgle /always/ has an average resul.
  296. [19:30] <Alectai> While Tzeentch either shoots himself in the foot or succeeds beyond expectations
  297. [19:30] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-321d74d2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  298. [19:30] <@AcademiaNut> The smaller dice would also produce more 'patterns' than larger dice since they have a tighter distribution and you get more of the same numbers showing up
  299. [19:30] <powerofmind> you can rework powers significantly, too
  300. [19:31] <Vel> Of course, patterns are the source
  301. [19:31] <Alectai> Khorne and Slaanesh approach it from a different route, rather than change the random modifier, they change your stats
  302. [19:31] <Aranfan> sorry, connection went poof
  303. [19:31] <Vel> Of a lot of shenanigans
  304. [19:31] <Vel> In AoS.
  305. [19:31] <Alectai> Khorne can turn any conflict into a Martial Check for instance, while Slaanesh does the same for Charisma
  306. [19:31] <@AcademiaNut> Yeah, could turn lots of psychic powers into dice trick shenanigans
  307. [19:31] <powerofmind> instead of flat buffs, you can tack on a special 'precog' bonus dice
  308. [19:31] <powerofmind> or rerolls on bonus dice
  309. [19:31] <powerofmind> it stops characters from ever becoming so powerful they can't fail
  310. [19:32] <powerofmind> because the bonus dice could always turn against them
  311. [19:32] <Alectai> Yeah, the thing about heroic characters who are talented is that they don't tend to fail on trivial stuff
  312. [19:32] <Vel> Failing on trivial stuff is often a really silly problem
  313. [19:32] <@AcademiaNut> That's sort of why I had the idea of giving them a skill floor
  314. [19:32] <powerofmind> except Mirande wasn't exactly doing trivial stuff to not fail against
  315. [19:32] <Vel> in mechanics
  316. [19:32] <Vel> Well in fairness we -have- had
  317. [19:32] <Vel> Failure on comparatively trivial stuff
  318. [19:32] <Vel> So
  319. [19:32] <Alectai> Good results from baseline heroic characters likely comes in the form of a very small dice modifier from elite training, and then stuff like a floor
  320. [19:32] <powerofmind> true
  321. [19:32] <Alectai> So they consistently perform adequately
  322. [19:33] <Alectai> Space Marines would be that with a +++ on it, a rather impressive dice modifier and a very high floor
  323. [19:33] <George_> what about the psyker education trait increasing the size of your willpower dice rather than adding willpower
  324. [19:33] <Vel> And yeah a skill floor is probably a good idea.
  325. [19:33] <Alectai> Psykers instead focus on Stupid Dice Tricks
  326. [19:33] <powerofmind> how would you go about figuring Mags into this system?
  327. [19:33] <Vel> Man, let's not think about Mags yet
  328. [19:33] <Alectai> While the Forces of Chaos often have /both/
  329. [19:33] <Vel> Mags is too Mags
  330. [19:33] <Vel> we need to know the system first
  331. [19:33] <Alectai> Mag is built around Stupid Dice Tricks I think
  332. [19:33] <Vel> Before we Mags.
  333. [19:33] <George_> so mirande then would have for instance d14s but mirande now would have d24s
  334. [19:34] == E3 [webchat@ool-435649ac.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  335. [19:34] <powerofmind> except adding willpower adds willpower dice
  336. [19:34] <Alectai> He essentially gets to keep rerolling at the cost of complications, but he has a trait that removes him from being a direct beneficiary of said complications, for good or ill
  337. [19:34] <powerofmind> more dice=more chances for pattern rolls to emerge
  338. [19:34] <Vel> Yeah that's both the benefit and problem with
  339. [19:34] <Vel> More dice
  340. [19:34] <George_> yeah that's why I was saying education doesn't add willpower in my suggestion
  341. [19:35] <Vel> If you want more pattern/dice trick stuff
  342. [19:35] <Alectai> Mirande meanwhile has a scarily high skill floor because she's focused on control over everything else, and is competent enough that she can pretty reliably employ some kind of bonus to everything she does
  343. [19:35] <Vel> More dice usually help
  344. [19:35] <powerofmind> if you widen the willpower dice gap, you only remove variance and pattern formation
  345. [19:35] <@AcademiaNut> So you could have say a guy with 17 in Willpower facing down some gribbly horror, but not too gribbly so it has a DC of 30 to not crap yourself. He gets say 3 bonus dice so he rolls d100+3d10. He rolls a 7+(2,3,10) which isn't enough, but he defaults to 17+(2,3,10). So he doesn't panic, but there is a complication - he freezes up for a second, so the enemy gets a bonus to close with him or the like
  346. [19:35] <George_> I think as quest voters we'd try to limit the dice trick stuff as much as possible
  347. [19:36] == E3 [webchat@ool-435649ac.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  348. [19:36] <E3> Lost connection. Did I miss anything?
  349. [19:36] <Alectai> Not really, it's not really any different from what we're already doing
  350. [19:36] <Skippeh> AcademiaNut: That sounds nice.
  351. [19:36] <powerofmind> yes, but that doesn't mean we get to organize the system in such a way that a core component of gaining power reduces the usefulness of bonus dice
  352. [19:36] <George_> it sounds good in that example but would it scale well?
  353. [19:36] <E3> SuperSonicSound remod me ya scurvy dog :p
  354. [19:36] == mode/#AgeofStrife [+o E3] by SuperSonicSound
  355. [19:36] == mode/#AgeofStrife [+o Skippeh] by SuperSonicSound
  356. [19:36] <@E3> ty
  357. [19:37] <Vel> also yeah
  358. [19:37] <@SuperSonicSound> couple more ops incase people drop out and the channel remains modless by accident
  359. [19:37] <Vel> Scaling is an issue with more complex dice systems
  360. [19:37] <@AcademiaNut> Well, theoretically we wouldn't be going much into the 50s and 60s on stats anymore
  361. [19:37] <Alectai> Yeah
  362. [19:37] <Vel> Or I guess you could make an excel/computer program
  363. [19:37] <Vel> To do it for you
  364. [19:37] <Vel> If you're savvy.
  365. [19:37] <Alectai> Mirande's a freak of nature who's all but a Space Marine at this point, so she likely plays on rules similar to them
  366. [19:37] <@E3> AcademiaNut if your skill level acts as a floor, does that mean if your skill level alone is enough to pass a check you can just take 10 (so to speak) and bypass the whole thing without rolling, to avoid the chance of complications?
  367. [19:37] <George_> well we might ignore more power and focus only on recruiting fanatical followers
  368. [19:37] <powerofmind> hmm, so not only would you check for patterns in the bonus dice, you would also immediately add them to the core roll?
  369. [19:37] <Vel> Do you think it's likely
  370. [19:37] <Vel> that we will ignore more power?
  371. [19:38] <Vel> You do know what forum you're talking about?
  372. [19:38] <Vel> :p
  373. [19:38] <Alectai> Hahaha
  374. [19:38] <Alectai> Yeah
  375. [19:38] <Alectai> "Oh hey, YOU SHOULD PROBABLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE ELDAR"
  376. [19:38] <Alectai> Everyone: "Let's keep turtling up!"
  377. [19:38] <Alectai> Eldar Attack
  378. [19:38] <powerofmind> haha
  379. [19:38] <George_> but using your skill floor adds a complication, so that'd be a separate mechanic
  380. [19:38] <powerofmind> oh that one killed me
  381. [19:38] <George_> there's more than one kind of power
  382. [19:38] <George_> if it's a poisoned well we'd pick another vector
  383. [19:39] <Vel> well yeah
  384. [19:39] <@AcademiaNut> I will admit you guys do love to take the opposite tack half the time
  385. [19:39] <Vel> But we've already gone far down on the 'personal power' thing
  386. [19:39] <Vel> In fairness it's not always clear
  387. [19:39] <Vel> What the proper tack is
  388. [19:39] <George_> for instance we went for more actions vs stronger versions of the powers we use when we opened up biomancy
  389. [19:39] <@E3> AcademiaNut where WILL the skill levels generally be numerically if you're planning to scale the numbers back a bit (RIP Gardener's almost-40 Learning)
  390. [19:39] <Vel> Or rather, the expected tack.
  391. [19:39] <Vel> And haha, yeah, poor Gardner.
  392. [19:39] <powerofmind> AN, I say that you can only take ten in a situation where you aren't pressed to succeed
  393. [19:40] <powerofmind> except in the case of fettering, which will need some funky rules for itself
  394. [19:40] <@E3> Isn't that taking 20? :p Taking 10 should work unless you're being actively disrupted.
  395. [19:40] <powerofmind> that's kind of what I mean
  396. [19:40] <@AcademiaNut> Yeah, there's always a chance of some sort of complication. But I was thinking of flattening things out to have most humans fall within a 1-30 range, and with less cheesing of traits
  397. [19:40] <@SuperSonicSound> In this situation we're not even discussing that, it's the equivalent of taking 0 and winning on the modifier alone
  398. [19:40] <Vel> I think theoretically with enough benefits/augmentations/skill you might be able to take 20
  399. [19:41] <George_> taking 20 in D&D takes a long time
  400. [19:41] <Vel> Even in a place where you'd normally be pressed
  401. [19:41] <George_> taking 10 takes the normal time
  402. [19:41] <powerofmind> in a situation we need a die roll, we can't really take 20
  403. [19:41] <@E3> AcademiaNut WHAT DO YOU MEAN LESS CHEESING OF TRAITS? D: Noooooooo
  404. [19:41] == Fumbles [webchat@97-81-165-72.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #AgeofStrife
  405. [19:41] <powerofmind> AN doesn't bother including those kinds of situations in quests
  406. [19:41] <Vel> True, though I figure that, for example
  407. [19:41] <George_> but I like cheesing traits :(
  408. [19:41] <Vel> Something like augmented reflexes or whatever
  409. [19:41] <Alectai> I figure
  410. [19:41] <George_> maybe they can be lower impact?
  411. [19:41] <Vel> And everyone likes cheesing traits
  412. [19:41] <Vel> It's a large portion of the game
  413. [19:41] <Alectai> Even if we end up nerfing Mirande in the new system on paper, she should still be head and shoulders above her peers
  414. [19:41] <Vel> CHEESE THOSE TRAITS
  415. [19:41] <@E3> Well I mean there'll still be trait cheesing I guess. Just toned down a bit maybe?
  416. [19:41] <powerofmind> yeah
  417. [19:41] <Alectai> Through use of modifiers that ordinary people don't get
  418. [19:42] <powerofmind> any 'nerf' applied to mirande through a system reboot
  419. [19:42] <Vel> The nerfs would apply
  420. [19:42] <Vel> Across the board
  421. [19:42] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-321d74d2.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  422. [19:42] <powerofmind> will apply to everyone
  423. [19:42] <powerofmind> exactly
  424. [19:42] <powerofmind> it will be significantly harder for characters to be infinitely impossible to kill
  425. [19:42] <George_> I'm fine with weaker traits
  426. [19:42] <George_> but I don't want fewer traits
  427. [19:43] <Vel> I'm not sure they'd really be weaker honestly
  428. [19:43] <Alectai> Stat Squish
  429. [19:43] <Vel> Due to the general 'across the board' modification
  430. [19:43] <@SuperSonicSound> Oh noes, the death of the paragon of vice and virtue track is at hand /o\
  431. [19:43] <Vel> Yeah
  432. [19:43] <Alectai> Not a nerf
  433. [19:43] <@AcademiaNut> I can see Mirande or characters like her have a 30+ willpower but having more traits that add dice tricks
  434. [19:43] <Vel> Stat squish.
  435. [19:43] <Vel> Reducing stat bloat
  436. [19:43] <@SuperSonicSound> my tens of hours of advocating it are for nothing :<
  437. [19:43] <Alectai> Haha
  438. [19:43] <Vel> I don't know
  439. [19:43] <Vel> The same amount of traits is fine
  440. [19:43] <Vel> If only because it gives people stuff to do
  441. [19:43] <Alectai> Mirande should still be ridiculous between her ridiculously optimized metabolism and the whole "I am made of stuff that makes me killier than an average space marine" thing
  442. [19:44] <Vel> There is a whole metagame
  443. [19:44] <Alectai> I'm not kidding when I say that she'd make sense to play on such a theoretical tier
  444. [19:44] <Vel> Based around trait stuff
  445. [19:44] <@E3> Yeah. I recognize that Mirande's still going to be able to climb just as far above everyone else as before. It's more that I just like the "Feel" of stuff like Stat Caps raising through education traits that unlock at 100, 200, 500 etc. years of age. And the second lifestyle trait being unlocked by similar. And of course the Vice/Virtue hybrid traits and such.
  446. [19:44] <Vel> Actally it's not even a metagame honestly
  447. [19:44] <Vel> It's a Game Game
  448. [19:44] <@E3> I hope you consider keeping some of the stuff like that AcademiaNut
  449. [19:44] <Alectai> I know one game being run has the "Ordinary" human cap being a 30
  450. [19:44] <@Skippeh> In general thinking about power levels of characters is a bit of a red herring.
  451. [19:44] <Vel> "Ordinary"
  452. [19:44] <Vel> Unless you have like
  453. [19:44] <Alectai> But simple monsters and beasts and the like can get to 40, and particularly potent things can cap at 50
  454. [19:44] <@Skippeh> We're more at the systems design stage here.
  455. [19:44] <Vel> Well yeah
  456. [19:44] <Alectai> With Cap 60 being the realm of high gods and elder dragons and the like
  457. [19:45] <Vel> But it's worth thinking about it since
  458. [19:45] <@SuperSonicSound> yea talking numbers right now isn't the important thing we should be discussing how action resolution works
  459. [19:45] <Vel> We're not talking specific characters precisely
  460. [19:45] <Alectai> So you might have a /Raw/ stat, but you're dragged down somewhat by your template
  461. [19:45] <Alectai> So like, Dia for instance might be--on paper--Martial 40 or so
  462. [19:45] <Vel> And yeah I don't think we're mainly talking numbers
  463. [19:45] <powerofmind> but she's limited, capped out, at 30
  464. [19:45] <Alectai> But she can only effectively apply Martial 35 or so because she just lacks the hardware to do more
  465. [19:45] <Vel> Though eh, Alectai, you're putting the lie to my statement
  466. [19:45] <Vel> Haha
  467. [19:46] <@E3> I'm not too concerned about the numbers specifically SuperSonicSound, I mostly just want the uh... I dunno, layered, constructive feel of the traits from the last version to be preserved.
  468. [19:46] <powerofmind> AN just said traits would still exist
  469. [19:46] <Vel> But no the numbers are just being used as a prop for discussion
  470. [19:46] <Vel> And/or examples.
  471. [19:46] <powerofmind> they would just be more trolly dice shenanigans than pure stats
  472. [19:46] <Vel> Eh I dunno
  473. [19:46] <powerofmind> I for one am wildly interested to see what the vice/virtue path looks like as dice tricks
  474. [19:46] <Vel> Trolly dice shenanigans can get irritating and aren't really fitting outside of stuff like chaos and psyker stuff
  475. [19:47] <powerofmind> rather than stat points
  476. [19:47] <@AcademiaNut> Hmmm... one idea might be that certain creatures might have high raw numbers to represent the fact that they always get a certain degree of success, but have fewer bonus dice or smaller bonus dice than might be expected to represent less actual skill
  477. [19:47] <powerofmind> whoever said all stats would be dice shenanigans?
  478. [19:47] <@E3> I think they have to be stat-expanding to a certain degree as well. Virtue/Vice and Psyker Education gained through age doesn't make much sense as a dice trick thing. They make sense as an expanding your stat foundations thing.
  479. [19:47] <Vel> You didn't
  480. [19:47] <powerofmind> I only said MORE traits would be dice shenanigans
  481. [19:47] <Vel> I wasn't implying that
  482. [19:47] <Vel> And eh
  483. [19:47] <Vel> I don't know
  484. [19:47] <@Skippeh> E3: That's probably one of the easier things to keep, depending on what you mean by "layered".
  485. [19:47] <Vel> I feel like traits as dice shenanigans doesn't really make that much sense
  486. [19:47] <@Skippeh> AcademiaNut: Yeah that'd work nicely.
  487. [19:47] <@E3> AcademiaNut the difference between a Great Unclean One and an Exalted Great Unclean one? :p
  488. [19:48] <Vel> And yeah
  489. [19:48] <Vel> That sounds pretty good, AN.
  490. [19:48] <George_> I still think skill should give consistency however it's implemented
  491. [19:48] <George_> while talent should give explosiveness
  492. [19:48] <Alectai> I would say it's certainly possible to expand your caps with the right Traits, but they'd have to be pretty powerful ones
  493. [19:48] <@SuperSonicSound> I kind of agree with George here, high levels of skill should represent consistency
  494. [19:48] <powerofmind> so virtues
  495. [19:48] <Alectai> A Tier 5 Education for instance would come with a +5/+10 boost to your (Related Stat) Cap for instance
  496. [19:49] <Vel> Yeah I'm definitely in favor of some kind of method to ensure consistency
  497. [19:49] <Alectai> Which fits because technically, Tier 5 would require you to have put a human lifetime into learning that technique
  498. [19:49] <powerofmind> virtues are consistant, vices are explosive
  499. [19:50] <@E3> Alectai Yeah. that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. T5+ Education and deep vice/virtue path stuff should be the ones that increase stat caps and/or gate the best dice tricks, basically. That's what I'd like to see out of this.
  500. [19:50] == powerofmind [webchat@c-73-248-145-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  501. [19:50] <Vel> Reminds me of world of darkness, where' it's honestly thee posite
  502. [19:50] <Vel> But that's a quirk of WoD
  503. [19:50] == powerofmind [webchat@c-73-248-145-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  504. [19:50] <Vel> And it's deliberate encouragement
  505. [19:50] <Vel> Of playing a horror-y game
  506. [19:50] <Vel> Where the GM wants you to be constantly doing vice-y things
  507. [19:50] <George_> virtue and vice don't impact resolution there though
  508. [19:50] <Vel> [20:50] <Vel> Reminds me of world of darkness, where' it's honestly the opposite [20:50] <Vel> But that's a quirk of WoD
  509. [19:50] <Vel> and yeah
  510. [19:51] <Alectai> And this is also how we model Eldar being depressingly OP
  511. [19:51] <Vel> Well it does sort of
  512. [19:51] <Vel> In that it gives willpower
  513. [19:51] <George_> they just restore the same pool that you can spend for bonuses
  514. [19:51] <Vel> Which can be spent for extra dice yeah
  515. [19:51] <Alectai> Because not only would they have a natural cap of 40 or something, but they're just shy of immortal, so they can stack up high tier education traits
  516. [19:51] <Alectai> Which increase their caps and numbers to depressingly high levels
  517. [19:51] <@AcademiaNut> Hmmmm... there's an idea, gaining extra bonus dice for a roll at the cost of having fewer later because you are exhausted
  518. [19:52] <George_> it's not a bad system alectai, but we don't even know what we need from stats until we have resolution down
  519. [19:52] <Alectai> Merf, I'm just throwgn stuff at the wall
  520. [19:52] <Alectai> And seeing if anything sticks
  521. [19:52] <powerofmind> resolution seems pretty solidly handled
  522. [19:52] <Vel> I think we all are really
  523. [19:52] <Vel> But yeah
  524. [19:52] <Vel> Though I think it'll need playtesting
  525. [19:52] <powerofmind> skills give a floor
  526. [19:52] <@E3> Yeah I definitely like the EoE system for resolution, overall.
  527. [19:53] <@Skippeh> It's p. awesome
  528. [19:53] <powerofmind> they also give a number of bonus dice to apply for things that you can't beat with just the floor
  529. [19:53] <George_> another idea along those lines is taking a flat malus to add a bonus die
  530. [19:53] <@AcademiaNut> Definitely, which is why I wanted to have a smaller scale spiritual successor game before trying to rework AoS, to allow for some playtesting
  531. [19:53] <George_> to attempt something crazy, such as when dia shot her bullet to shoot slag at the seer
  532. [19:53] <Vel> I do note that a hundred to hundred twenty turn cap
  533. [19:53] <Vel> Isn't really small thouh
  534. [19:53] <Vel> Though*
  535. [19:53] <powerofmind> that's just it though
  536. [19:53] <powerofmind> it's a cap
  537. [19:54] <powerofmind> not a minimum
  538. [19:54] <Vel> Well sure
  539. [19:54] <Vel> But you know that if people get interested
  540. [19:54] <George_> I feel like we'll be determined to resolve the experiment
  541. [19:54] <Vel> Well which isn't a bad thing but
  542. [19:54] <Vel> There's a good chance it'll stretch on
  543. [19:54] <George_> unless it breaks
  544. [19:54] <Vel> Just by the nature of this kind of thing
  545. [19:54] <Vel> And yeah true
  546. [19:54] <powerofmind> I'm sure AN can write it well enough that we don't get overly invested
  547. [19:54] <Vel> that's a hilarious phrase.
  548. [19:55] <powerofmind> he plays us like fiddles with Harzivan's narrative
  549. [19:55] <George_> though it's likely to break for the GM far before it breaks for the players
  550. [19:55] <@Skippeh> He will use his writing skills
  551. [19:55] <@Skippeh> to make us hate the characters
  552. [19:55] <@Skippeh> and the setting
  553. [19:55] <@Skippeh> with a passion
  554. [19:55] <Vel> Hahah
  555. [19:55] <Vel> Brilliant.
  556. [19:55] <powerofmind> i have absolutely no doubt that AN's choice of words and portrayal of the river mother is the only reason she was so hated
  557. [19:55] <@AcademiaNut> Heh. But by a 120 turn cap, I mean that you are likely to have an apocalypse by the end. So the game is more about trying to find a satisfying resolution at the end rather than keep things going
  558. [19:56] <@Skippeh> Yeah it has something of a defined end-point.
  559. [19:56] <Vel> True, just
  560. [19:56] <Vel> 120 is a lot of turns
  561. [19:56] <Alectai> "THE YAWHG WILL ARRIVE IN SIX DAYS"
  562. [19:56] <George_> it may be hard to get in the spirit of a game where we can't keep things going
  563. [19:56] <powerofmind> so what you're saying AN
  564. [19:56] <Alectai> "NOBODY KNEW IT WAS COMING"
  565. [19:56] <Vel> THE MOON
  566. [19:56] <Vel> IS FALLING
  567. [19:56] <@Skippeh> I also had the amusing experience the other day of imagining the backstory of Delta Green
  568. [19:56] <George_> we'd definitely have goals different than what led us to optimize mirande how we did
  569. [19:56] <powerofmind> is that there's a solid chance that we'll oops the apocalypse a great number of turns early
  570. [19:56] <@Skippeh> as us playing a quest
  571. [19:56] <@E3> I mean, basically the one thing I REALLY want to see is "Big" traits (Education Levels, Lifestyle Traits, stuff like Paragon of Vice/Virtue or hybrid vice/virtue traits, Psyker Discipline Levels) being used to gate higher stat caps, better dice-trick traits/abilities, etc. so that traits continue to function in the way they did before, where having the right build makes them become more than the sum of their parts.
  572. [19:56] <George_> though it could be freeing and good
  573. [19:56] <Vel> I have to admit
  574. [19:57] <Vel> That a Delta Green type quest thing
  575. [19:57] <Vel> Would be really fun
  576. [19:57] <Vel> I'd rather have AoS of course
  577. [19:57] <Vel> But I would definitely play a Delta Green quest/council/game/thing
  578. [19:57] <@Skippeh> And in particular the creation of MJ-12 and the debacle in Cambodia being schemes of Ekans' that got a little out of hand :P
  579. [19:57] <@E3> Well this is us taking AoS from CK2 to EU4 :p I suspect we'll have to do this again when we go from EU4 to Stellaris :o
  580. [19:57] <@AcademiaNut> There may or may not be a Count Dio Rocca as an available character at some point
  581. [19:57] <powerofmind> no
  582. [19:58] <@Skippeh> And Alzis being the character that AN kept prompting us to investigate but we never got around to
  583. [19:58] <@E3> Haha
  584. [19:58] <powerofmind> E3 this is us taking AoS from unbalanced to balanced
  585. [19:58] <powerofmind> nothing about a scope change here
  586. [19:58] <Vel> Well in fairness AN was planning a bit of a scope change
  587. [19:58] <Vel> Which never happened
  588. [19:58] <Vel> Back when AoS was still chugging along
  589. [19:58] <Vel> So I can see where he's coming from
  590. [19:58] <powerofmind> because we went to mirande
  591. [19:59] <Vel> Yeah but I more meant that the polity got larged enough
  592. [19:59] <powerofmind> and the aim was to have the scope change up for when she took over
  593. [19:59] <Vel> That he had to revamp the system
  594. [19:59] <Vel> Yeah
  595. [19:59] <powerofmind> but then it exploded into confusion
  596. [19:59] <George_> is the scope flawed, though?
  597. [19:59] <Vel> Well even ignoring that he had said that the polity got large enough
  598. [19:59] <Vel> That the scope needed to be revamped since the system was too built for small scale stuff
  599. [19:59] <Vel> And we were a multi city large nation by the point the game ended
  600. [19:59] <powerofmind> that's hardly true
  601. [19:59] <@SuperSonicSound> Mirande would have ended up in charge but Copro daemon happened
  602. [20:00] <powerofmind> CK2 is built for anything up to and including an entire empire
  603. [20:00] <powerofmind> it's just significantly too complex for one person to handle the entire thing
  604. [20:00] <Vel> Yes but CK2 automates everything.
  605. [20:00] <Vel> Yes.
  606. [20:00] <powerofmind> on paper
  607. [20:00] <@Skippeh> Yeah CK2 wasn't the bit that was causing problems.
  608. [20:00] <@SuperSonicSound> Yea but CK2 also automates everything
  609. [20:00] <@Skippeh> Per se
  610. [20:00] <powerofmind> skippy gets it
  611. [20:00] <powerofmind> it wasn't that CK2 was inherently flawed
  612. [20:00] <@Skippeh> the economic system was /hellish/ to do the number crunching for by the end
  613. [20:01] <George_> were there problems beyond the economic system?
  614. [20:01] <powerofmind> it was that the fusion of 40k and CK2 did not go well as things expanded in scope
  615. [20:01] <@SuperSonicSound> Yes I recall and read the system reform thread when it was a thing
  616. [20:01] <@Skippeh> well i don't know that much about CK2 but I do know that AN was manually running numbers for trade fluctuations
  617. [20:01] <@Skippeh> at one stage
  618. [20:01] <@Skippeh> :v
  619. [20:01] <@E3> Well some of AoS' stuff could be automated by spreadsheet. Although I do think that we need to make it more abstract for this stage of play :p
  620. [20:01] <Vel> what he really needs is some kind of programmer
  621. [20:01] <Vel> To program this stuff
  622. [20:01] <George_> I understand that, but AN has already cut that out hasn't he?
  623. [20:01] <@Skippeh> Yeah that wasn't insurmountable and was already sort of being surmounted, really.
  624. [20:01] <powerofmind> yeah
  625. [20:01] <powerofmind> but that's sort of not even the point of discussion
  626. [20:02] <powerofmind> because we fell into a random tanget
  627. [20:02] <George_> so are there current scope issues?
  628. [20:02] <@SuperSonicSound> I think you'd be better off either abstracting the economics side of things. You're likely drilling into to fine detail if that's taking up oodles of time
  629. [20:02] <Vel> Yeah, I'm just mentioning where E3 probably got
  630. [20:02] <Vel> The idea
  631. [20:03] <@Skippeh> The broader issue as I understand it was "fun to write", which is kind of what we're dealing with here by coming up with a new resolution system and game structure.
  632. [20:04] <Vel> We want to ensure it's also fun to play too, of course, but yeah pretty much
  633. [20:04] <George_> hard for us to help with that though
  634. [20:04] <powerofmind> well fortunately, it's a lot easier to retailor the empire building than the personal encounters
  635. [20:04] <@AcademiaNut> There were sort of three games before we went off with Mirande: econ, research, and personal stuff. Econ was the first to get dropped as "unfun", while research bloated up way too much by the end. This left personal, but the growth there went exponential when it was the only thing available
  636. [20:05] <Vel> I suppose that re-integrating the personal stuff
  637. [20:05] <Vel> With the Empire-building
  638. [20:05] <Vel> Might help there, then.
  639. [20:05] <George_> there's also the societal problems with philosophical movements and whatnot
  640. [20:05] <Vel> I think that was tied to Personal
  641. [20:05] <@E3> Research is something I REALLY want to get back to, though I will agree that it was ballooning a bit out of control. Not sure exactly how to fix that one. Econ can be fixed by just adding a layer of abstraction, I would hope.
  642. [20:06] <@Skippeh> Yeah there'll be a much better defined coupling between them from now on, hopefully.
  643. [20:06] <Vel> But yeah I'd think we re-integrate Mirande stuff with doing Empire stuff
  644. [20:06] <powerofmind> research is probably going to be the trickiest one
  645. [20:06] <Vel> So they're not totally seperate things
  646. [20:06] <@Skippeh> We'll see in the playtest how it works, but I'm comfident.
  647. [20:06] <George_> yeah I don't really see another way to do research
  648. [20:06] <powerofmind> we could always torture ourselves with a Master of Orion II research arrangement
  649. [20:06] <@Skippeh> I'm surprised to har that Research was causing you grief tho AcademiaNut, though having updated it once I can understand why lol
  650. [20:07] <Vel> Plus all of us are here because like
  651. [20:07] <Vel> both Empire and personal stuff
  652. [20:07] <Vel> So, two birds with one stone
  653. [20:07] == Alectai [webchat@70.50.93.236] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  654. [20:07] <@AcademiaNut> Running the numbers was a bit time intensive but was never really the issue. It was getting everything updated with proper explanations of what they do, and figuring out what came next
  655. [20:07] <powerofmind> so basically
  656. [20:08] <Vel> Huh, really? That's the kind of thing I enjoy doing endlessly
  657. [20:08] <Vel> In my free time.
  658. [20:08] <George_> research was fun but I suppose you're doing a lot more work there for the little game we get
  659. [20:08] <@E3> Well I really like the tech tree, it just goes in so many different directions at once. And how are sources of Research Rolls going to be handled in the new system for that matter AcademiaNut? And how will personnel modify them? o.o
  660. [20:08] <powerofmind> the problem was that you didn't have time to look ahead in the research tree to pre-complete it
  661. [20:08] <Vel> I guess anything would get boring once it becomes a job
  662. [20:08] <powerofmind> you were always behind the turn you were on in terms of where research was going
  663. [20:08] <Vel> Part of why doing things for fun tends to make people more productive
  664. [20:09] == Prim [webchat@131.81-166-93.customer.lyse.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  665. [20:09] <@Skippeh> Research gave people a ton of enjoyment, I think.
  666. [20:09] <Prim> hi?
  667. [20:09] <Vel> Yeah Research was a big
  668. [20:09] <Vel> Hindbrain
  669. [20:09] <Vel> Jolt of energy.
  670. [20:09] <Vel> Haha
  671. [20:09] <Vel> Also planning it out, of course.
  672. [20:09] <@Skippeh> It's the feeling of unlocking something
  673. [20:09] <@Skippeh> Oh yeah!
  674. [20:09] <Vel> Exactly
  675. [20:09] <Vel> Progression.
  676. [20:09] <Vel> People love to feel like they're progressing
  677. [20:09] <Vel> Kind of like MMOs
  678. [20:09] <powerofmind> the issue there, is that what AN needs to do is increase the abstraction of research as well
  679. [20:09] <Vel> It's addicting.
  680. [20:09] <powerofmind> but that's DAMN hard to do
  681. [20:10] <powerofmind> without taking away from the wrong things
  682. [20:10] <Vel> Yeah the descriptions and the variety were a lot of what people enjoyed
  683. [20:10] <Vel> So it's super hard to
  684. [20:10] <George_> well we could just have tiers of tech that subsume figuring out all of the physics and updating the relevant designs
  685. [20:10] <Vel> Clean up.
  686. [20:10] <powerofmind> He could always go with Master of Orion
  687. [20:10] <@SuperSonicSound> research is the ultimate skinners box :3
  688. [20:10] <Vel> Yep
  689. [20:11] <powerofmind> Techs are sorted into a set of 'disciplines', which he's already partly done
  690. [20:11] <powerofmind> and specific developments are gated behind a particular 'tier' of each discipline, BUT NOT TOO SPECIFIC
  691. [20:11] <Vel> It also feeds the primal desire to have more options
  692. [20:11] <George_> oh yeah we could just research those general categories that things are already labelled with
  693. [20:11] <Vel> And preparedness
  694. [20:12] == Prim [webchat@131.81-166-93.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  695. [20:12] <powerofmind> for example, MOO II had a discipline called 'construction'
  696. [20:12] <Vel> Sure, but that sort of limits a lot of what people found fun
  697. [20:12] <Vel> IE: cool tech stuff
  698. [20:12] <George_> it'd kill the mini-game, but it'd probably worth that to reduce the work needed for updates
  699. [20:12] <Vel> I mean it would definitely reduce the workload
  700. [20:12] <Vel> But yeah
  701. [20:13] <powerofmind> one of the tiers was called 'Advanced Construction', I believe it was teir 3
  702. [20:13] <George_> fewer techs could allow longer, fluffier descriptions that might be easier for AN to write
  703. [20:13] <powerofmind> it had three specific undertechs
  704. [20:13] <Vel> True, though there wouldn't be much to think about
  705. [20:13] == Nix_ [webchat@p4FCD08E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #AgeofStrife
  706. [20:13] <Vel> When it comes to selecting techs
  707. [20:13] <powerofmind> granted most of them made no sense in terms of what belongs in it
  708. [20:13] <Vel> So yeah it would totally kill the minigame
  709. [20:14] <Vel> Which was a pretty major part of the engagement
  710. [20:14] <Vel> Ofc, if it really is super odious
  711. [20:14] <Vel> That's a worthwhile sacrifiec
  712. [20:14] <@Skippeh> It may be that complex Research trees will actually be the one pain AN can actually live with (in a slightly more manageable form) if all the others are resolved. We'll see.
  713. [20:14] <powerofmind> Anti-missile rockets, Reinforced hulls, and fighter bays
  714. [20:14] <@AcademiaNut> I was sort of thinking of having both Theoretical Science and Applied Science, and reducing the number of small leaf and stem techs
  715. [20:14] <powerofmind> hmm
  716. [20:14] <George_> sounds good to me
  717. [20:14] <powerofmind> you could go that route
  718. [20:14] <George_> just what's necessary for the empire game
  719. [20:14] <powerofmind> more like a Sid Meiyers beyond earth?
  720. [20:14] <George_> though we'd have theoretical, applied, and forbidden
  721. [20:14] <Vel> beyond earth was
  722. [20:15] <powerofmind> beyond earth sucked terribly
  723. [20:15] <Vel> yes
  724. [20:15] <Vel> well
  725. [20:15] <Vel> not terribly
  726. [20:15] <Vel> But yeah it wasn't that great.
  727. [20:15] <powerofmind> but the tech tree might be worth salvaging out of it
  728. [20:15] <@AcademiaNut> Yeah. The granularity was more useful for the initial game, but it wasn't useful as things got more advanced
  729. [20:15] <Vel> No Civilization game is that great before expansion packs
  730. [20:15] <powerofmind> even after the expansion pack
  731. [20:15] <@AcademiaNut> Perhaps not the tech tree itself, but the structural conception of it
  732. [20:15] <powerofmind> really...
  733. [20:15] <@SuperSonicSound> Alpha Centuarai?
  734. [20:15] <George_> yeah
  735. [20:15] <powerofmind> alpha centauri was awesome
  736. [20:15] <powerofmind> but that's not what we're looking for
  737. [20:16] <Vel> Yeah
  738. [20:16] <powerofmind> we want to yank out beyond earth's tech system
  739. [20:16] <@SuperSonicSound> True
  740. [20:16] <George_> I think it became neat to see what happened but we had so many rolls that we weren't really directing it much at all
  741. [20:16] <@Skippeh> AcademiaNut: Well I think people enjoyed it a great deal.
  742. [20:16] <powerofmind> because it's surprisingly good
  743. [20:16] <Vel> Yeah the tech tree
  744. [20:16] <Vel> Is greatly enjoyed
  745. [20:16] <Vel> I know Alectai backed out of the IRC
  746. [20:16] <Vel> But he really loved it.
  747. [20:16] <Vel> For instance.
  748. [20:16] <powerofmind> that's true
  749. [20:17] <powerofmind> some people may love the old tech system SO MUCH that they'll do all of the work for you
  750. [20:17] <@Skippeh> Like of the aspects you've identified it's the only one where I'd say there were some positives. (Other than the exploding crits leading to good drama, but a properly-realized EotE inspired resolution system should be able to do that to.)
  751. [20:17] <Vel> That's honestly quite possible.
  752. [20:17] <@SuperSonicSound> I think the previous research system was actually very fun in that it gave us a concrete look at our societies technology and how things were built, it gave a kind of insight into what society used that wasn't strictly visible through the normal texto f the updates.
  753. [20:17] <George_> it's still a lot of checking and correcting even if people build mockups that he could use
  754. [20:17] <Vel> It was extremely fluffy about the nature of our civilization though yeah
  755. [20:17] <powerofmind> but that wasn't the real issue
  756. [20:17] <Vel> For all that it's a pain, it had a lot of good points
  757. [20:17] <powerofmind> AN had to roll a billion dice
  758. [20:18] <@Skippeh> Also the granularity also meant that past the early stages our tech growth didn't become expoential because there were so many sub-parts to cover- which was appropriate to our situation really.
  759. [20:18] <Vel> Yeah but I think he said the billion dice rolling
  760. [20:18] <Vel> Wasn't really the problematic part
  761. [20:18] <powerofmind> and invent an equal number of projects to persue
  762. [20:18] <@E3> SuperSonicSound does have a point AcademiaNut. I think that a good way to get some of that though would be to do block writeups of the kinds of things that are contained within given branches/tiers of technology. Tell us what kind of things we have access to without making them individual research projects in their own right :p
  763. [20:18] <George_> I think he said building the tree was worse than the dice
  764. [20:18] <Fumbles> The highly detailed research tree makes sense when you're dealing with a post-apocalypse society trying to pick up the pieces. It helped establish how much we lost and how far behind we were.
  765. [20:18] <Vel> yeah
  766. [20:18] <powerofmind> okay
  767. [20:19] <powerofmind> so we're not yet at a point where we can revamp research into 'the unknown'
  768. [20:19] <powerofmind> and likely never will
  769. [20:19] <George_> idk it could be consolidated
  770. [20:19] <powerofmind> but AN still has to write up hundreds upon hundreds of techs
  771. [20:19] <powerofmind> and worse still, he can't do it in advance
  772. [20:19] <George_> assuming you mean forbidden research
  773. [20:19] <Vel> The lack of doing it in advance is a problem yeah
  774. [20:19] <Vel> But
  775. [20:19] <powerofmind> because someone might ask 'hey, why don't we have this?'
  776. [20:19] <George_> he doesn't have to do that in the proposed system
  777. [20:19] <powerofmind> and that throws off the whole thing
  778. [20:20] <Vel> True but adding
  779. [20:20] <Vel> One or two
  780. [20:20] <Vel> Little things
  781. [20:20] <Vel> When someone points it out
  782. [20:20] <George_> it's just abstracted
  783. [20:20] <Vel> Is, while a bit of work
  784. [20:20] <Vel> And yeah
  785. [20:20] <powerofmind> but then he still has to write over a thousand words of fluff
  786. [20:20] <powerofmind> then two thousand, because that probably doesn't even cover the tech we HAVE
  787. [20:20] <Vel> Still yeah, some amount of abstraction is probably necessary
  788. [20:20] <powerofmind> then two thousand more...
  789. [20:21] <George_> presumably fluff is easier than the more concrete text he's making with research as it was
  790. [20:21] <Vel> True, but the research system is probably the most beloved of the specific mechanic-y stuff
  791. [20:21] <powerofmind> some research text was concrete
  792. [20:21] <powerofmind> but a fair amount was fluff covered concrete
  793. [20:21] <George_> sure but that doesn't mean it is producing enough enjoyment to pay for its weight
  794. [20:21] <Vel> Yeah
  795. [20:21] <George_> and we're past the best part of it
  796. [20:22] <@SuperSonicSound> Are we?
  797. [20:22] <Vel> On the other hand, if you abstract it to a certain point you're pretty much losing an entire segment of the game
  798. [20:22] <powerofmind> it's hard to say that
  799. [20:22] <George_> I think so
  800. [20:22] <Vel> I don't know if we are yes.
  801. [20:22] <@SuperSonicSound> Last I recall we were still quite early in the tech trees for most things
  802. [20:22] <George_> since we don't really direct stuff
  803. [20:22] <George_> and have so many researches rolling at once
  804. [20:22] <powerofmind> that's... kind of a point
  805. [20:23] <Vel> yeah but I don't think we've gotten past the 'post apocalyptic tech regaining' stage yet really
  806. [20:23] <powerofmind> we're often researching in so many directions that we're effectively capable of researching an entire discipline's worth of techs at once
  807. [20:23] <Vel> Even if the lack of control does mean we're getting close
  808. [20:23] <George_> we won't ever considering the DAoT
  809. [20:23] <Vel> Note that Dandriss wasn't top tier DAOT though
  810. [20:23] <Vel> It was low tier
  811. [20:23] <KlavoHunter> We are clawing our way back into space, one divination-guided Quench Gun volley at a time
  812. [20:23] <George_> yeah I'm just saying that we won't get back to the peak for human society
  813. [20:24] <powerofmind> hmmm
  814. [20:24] <Vel> True, but we could get back to the peak for dandriss probably
  815. [20:24] <George_> but we don't necessarily have to lose hearing about cool techs
  816. [20:24] <George_> it just has to come in a way that AN can write more easily
  817. [20:24] <@E3> Exactly
  818. [20:24] <George_> this system isn't it, so what is
  819. [20:24] <Vel> That's the question.
  820. [20:24] <KlavoHunter> Mirande Scrys another planet that we knew was human
  821. [20:24] <@SuperSonicSound> @AcademiaNut could you expound on what exactly made the research system so problematic for you?
  822. [20:25] <powerofmind> the active research tab is regularly longer than any two updates combined
  823. [20:25] <@E3> Well he said it was mostly having to come up with new specific techs constantly. Making it a bit less granular means that he can tell us about new techs that are useful, interesting and have an impact on society/gameplay/choices available when it's appropriate
  824. [20:26] <@E3> but he doesn't have to give us specific research projects every time we want to research organ replacement cybernetics and marksman eyes (which are hilariously two separate projects as it stands)
  825. [20:26] <powerofmind> maybe techs that are semi-silly
  826. [20:26] <powerofmind> or overly particular
  827. [20:26] <powerofmind> like the centipede walker
  828. [20:26] <Vel> man Annaaaa
  829. [20:26] <Vel> and her mechfetish
  830. [20:26] <Vel> researched all sorts of super specific mechs that we had no real reason
  831. [20:26] <Vel> to have that many kinds of mechs
  832. [20:27] <powerofmind> can be umbrella'd under a set of 'specialized design' I II III IV deals
  833. [20:27] <@Skippeh> Anna didn't need a reason
  834. [20:27] <Vel> big stompy robots
  835. [20:27] <powerofmind> like
  836. [20:27] <Vel> chicks dig robots.
  837. [20:27] <@Skippeh> are their own reason
  838. [20:27] <powerofmind> at a certain point
  839. [20:27] <@AcademiaNut> Anna likes robots
  840. [20:27] <@AcademiaNut> But yeah, there was excessive specificity
  841. [20:28] <powerofmind> you don't need to actively persue the development of a new design in a class of robot you've already figured out
  842. [20:28] <Vel> Yeah I feel like you could make reasonable categories of stuff
  843. [20:28] <Vel> Like
  844. [20:28] <Vel> Various mech categories
  845. [20:28] <Vel> Various augmentation categories
  846. [20:28] <powerofmind> weapon categories
  847. [20:28] <Vel> And you could then tier them
  848. [20:28] <Vel> So
  849. [20:28] <Vel> Yeah
  850. [20:28] <@AcademiaNut> In my defence, at the time everything made sense as being its own thing
  851. [20:28] <Vel> Plasma I, Augmenting Cybernetics I
  852. [20:28] <powerofmind> those three alone comprise over a thousand words of the 4k+ tech tree
  853. [20:29] <Vel> To be fair tons of weapons
  854. [20:29] <Vel> Are fun
  855. [20:29] <Vel> We're SV
  856. [20:29] <Vel> We love our dakka
  857. [20:29] <Vel> AN is one of us.
  858. [20:29] <Vel> So
  859. [20:29] <powerofmind> we just don't need to research every single one of those tons of weapons actively, on a high-polity scale
  860. [20:29] <@E3> Yeah well for stuff like the gravy gun that we found in the ruins it makes sense to have an individual research project
  861. [20:29] <@E3> or the Ukko
  862. [20:29] <Vel> But yes weapon categories could be compressed
  863. [20:29] <powerofmind> wait
  864. [20:29] <@E3> but most of the time just general design categories is plenty
  865. [20:29] <powerofmind> that might be it
  866. [20:30] <powerofmind> we develop the core technologies and techniques at a polity level
  867. [20:30] <@SuperSonicSound> @E3 A gun that fires gravy? Sign me :3
  868. [20:30] <@E3> haha
  869. [20:30] <Vel> Core techs and techniques at polity, regular item-y stuff at personal?
  870. [20:30] <Vel> Is what you were going to say?
  871. [20:30] <Vel> Maybe?
  872. [20:30] <powerofmind> and AN takes the specialized techs and makes them 'quiet projects' that we don't see at a polity level
  873. [20:30] <Vel> Yeah
  874. [20:30] <Phantrosity> ie
  875. [20:30] <Vel> Well if he doesn't need descriptions that at least
  876. [20:30] <Phantrosity> can make swords
  877. [20:31] <Phantrosity> polity
  878. [20:31] <Phantrosity> can make cool specialized chainsword
  879. [20:31] <Phantrosity> personal
  880. [20:31] <KlavoHunter> Well we need robots to fight dragons
  881. [20:31] <powerofmind> lol
  882. [20:31] <powerofmind> basically
  883. [20:31] <powerofmind> AN makes a tech for bots
  884. [20:31] <Vel> Yeah
  885. [20:31] <powerofmind> called walker I
  886. [20:31] <Vel> That's what I was meaning
  887. [20:31] <KlavoHunter> to fight monsters we created monsters that we now have to fight so we created some more monsters
  888. [20:31] <Vel> When I was like 'Augmentation Cybernetics I'
  889. [20:31] <Vel> or whatnot
  890. [20:31] <@SuperSonicSound> Hmm, that does make me wonder how things like sanctic sorcery research would fit in
  891. [20:31] <powerofmind> gated behind that are all the specific walkers anna researched
  892. [20:31] <Vel> Well I don't know if it would need to be gated
  893. [20:31] <powerofmind> but they don't need to be specifically researched at a polity scale
  894. [20:31] <Vel> They would just be auto unlocked
  895. [20:31] <Vel> Yeah
  896. [20:32] <Vel> You get teh Tier, they auto-unlock
  897. [20:32] <@SuperSonicSound> Although I guess with those kind of research topics you could just stay that specific
  898. [20:32] <powerofmind> that's sort of what I mean
  899. [20:32] <powerofmind> now this doesn't apply to EVERYTHING
  900. [20:32] <Vel> Some stuff doesn't need that yeah
  901. [20:32] <Vel> Like power generation tech
  902. [20:32] <powerofmind> there are a number of high-end techs under a tiered upgrade
  903. [20:32] <Vel> Really doesn't need to get specific
  904. [20:32] <@E3> SuperSonicSound sorcerous research is a bit unique because it's restricted stuff. But it mostly translates to giving units stuff like psyker abilities half the time, and just to regular old tech branch stuff the other half of the time, I think
  905. [20:32] <powerofmind> that needs specific research
  906. [20:32] <Vel> I do think Forbidden Research is one thing
  907. [20:32] <George_> eh forbidden tech can still be general
  908. [20:32] <Vel> That should stay specific
  909. [20:32] <Vel> Honestly
  910. [20:32] <@E3> Agreed
  911. [20:32] <Vel> Considering that it -is- specific
  912. [20:32] <powerofmind> Elite-grade gated tech
  913. [20:32] <powerofmind> rather than basic crap
  914. [20:32] <@E3> Like, everything about Dragons should be specific. Because it's specific :p
  915. [20:33] <Vel> Of all of the techs, Forbidden is the one that should stay specific
  916. [20:33] <@E3> "Dragon Science I" makes no bloody sense
  917. [20:33] <Vel> It doesn't baloon
  918. [20:33] <Vel> nearly as much
  919. [20:33] <@E3> XD
  920. [20:33] <@E3> yeah
  921. [20:33] <Vel> As the other techs
  922. [20:33] <Vel> And it's something that you want to be careful about
  923. [20:33] <Vel> Like, you wouldn't want to introduce a whole broad spectrum of forbidden stuff
  924. [20:33] <Vel> A lot of times you just want one thing.
  925. [20:33] <George_> is the research system necessarily the right place to figure out about dragons?
  926. [20:33] <powerofmind> Lets use an actual example
  927. [20:33] <powerofmind> Improved Explosives II - You have institutional knowledge of how to make explosives with a tremendous amount of bang for their buck
  928. [20:33] <powerofmind> no need to actually research anything under it
  929. [20:33] <George_> though maybe it's the case that forbidden techs are easier to write blurbs for anyway
  930. [20:33] == Quaker932 [webchat@pool-108-49-25-195.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  931. [20:34] <Vel> I would suspect forbidden is easier yeah
  932. [20:34] <Vel> They're all flavorful and they're not something that balloons
  933. [20:34] <powerofmind> oh have we moved on...
  934. [20:34] <powerofmind> yes, forbidden tech can all stay the way it is
  935. [20:34] <@Skippeh> I'm about to get off to bed, but TBH research as-is is the one bit I wouldn't change that much.
  936. [20:34] <powerofmind> we have less than 500 words of forbidden tech
  937. [20:34] <@Skippeh> I say this as a guy who dosen't have to write it :v
  938. [20:34] <@SuperSonicSound> :P
  939. [20:34] <@SuperSonicSound> Yea I very much hope research stays the same
  940. [20:34] <George_> well improved explosives II might itself just be part of applied science II
  941. [20:34] <George_> or III or whatever
  942. [20:35] <Vel> Personally I really like research as is but I can acknowledge that it's
  943. [20:35] <Vel> Probably not the most fun for AN
  944. [20:35] <George_> I mean I love it too but if it's an obstacle to getting more AoS then it's a problem
  945. [20:35] <Vel> Though, I -do- think that if everything else gets fixed
  946. [20:35] <@SuperSonicSound> It would probably help to just ensure that it doesn't bloat though
  947. [20:35] <Vel> It might be not so bad
  948. [20:35] <Vel> I think you might not need to go to quite as much streamlining as we're talking
  949. [20:36] <Vel> Just get rid of some of the really, really hyperspecific
  950. [20:36] <Vel> Stuff
  951. [20:36] <@SuperSonicSound> Exactly.
  952. [20:36] <George_> just depends what parts are hard to write
  953. [20:36] <powerofmind> tell me that you guys think that a specific research like ARACHNE mechs are necessary
  954. [20:36] <powerofmind> cmon
  955. [20:36] <Vel> yeah that's the aforementioned
  956. [20:36] <Vel> really hyperspecific
  957. [20:36] <Vel> silliness
  958. [20:36] <powerofmind> you can put that and half a dozen other specific mechs
  959. [20:36] <@Skippeh> The elastic and plasma steels were incredibly cool.
  960. [20:36] <powerofmind> into a packeged deal
  961. [20:36] <Vel> yeah those were neat.
  962. [20:36] <powerofmind> 'non-biped' I
  963. [20:37] <Vel> Even if they are a bit specific but
  964. [20:37] <Vel> super neat
  965. [20:37] <Vel> And not 'arachne' tier superspecific at least.
  966. [20:37] <powerofmind> material science is more linear
  967. [20:37] <Vel> Yeah
  968. [20:37] <powerofmind> it doesn't need stupefying
  969. [20:37] <powerofmind> it's the leaf techs that need simplification and trim
  970. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> alright
  971. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> I'm falling asleep
  972. [20:38] <George_> you can still throw it under one research umbrella and just talk about the cool bits
  973. [20:38] <George_> I can pastebin it
  974. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> going to take a copy of the current room
  975. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> and drop off
  976. [20:38] <Vel> Alright.
  977. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> Cheers george
  978. [20:38] <Vel> Later, SSS.
  979. [20:38] <George_> cheers
  980. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> Ah crap
  981. [20:38] <Vel> ?
  982. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> The web channel has a line limit
  983. [20:38] <@SuperSonicSound> for scroll back
  984. [20:38] <George_> I was worried about that
  985. [20:39] == Oilworker [webchat@205.209.254.219] has joined #AgeofStrife
  986. [20:39] <Vel> I can scrollback all the way to the top
  987. [20:39] <powerofmind> like, do we really need a research for assault cannons AND autocannons? The fluff itself stats that one is literally a smaller version of the other
  988. [20:39] <George_> yeah same
  989. [20:39] <Vel> If you want I'll do the pastebin
  990. [20:39] <George_> I can it's np
  991. [20:39] <George_> but it's not time yet
  992. [20:39] <Vel> yeah
  993. [20:39] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-944ae5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  994. [20:39] <Aranfan> hopefully my connection will hold out this time
  995. [20:39] == Oilworker [webchat@205.209.254.219] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  996. [20:39] <@SuperSonicSound> I've lost like maybe 2 minutes of stuff but Ithink it's from before AN joined the channel
  997. [20:40] <@SuperSonicSound> So it should be good actually.
  998. [20:40] <Vel> Yeah I have from pretty much the start of the convo
  999. [20:40] <Vel> Even Pre-AN
  1000. [20:40] <powerofmind> AN, how would you feel about trimming the tech tree in such a way?
  1001. [20:40] <George_> so, any thoughts or new prompts to brainstorm on AN?
  1002. [20:41] <George_> what he'd said trims it more aggressively than what you proposed I think
  1003. [20:41] <powerofmind> stuff like weapon mini or macro or varieties of a mech
  1004. [20:41] <@AcademiaNut> Probably a good idea, although what I was trying to model was the challenge of miniaturization. Should probably just allow something like the Miniaturization tech in general to allow for things like that
  1005. [20:41] <George_> I think you can handwave a lot of it
  1006. [20:41] <powerofmind> that's what master of orion does
  1007. [20:42] <George_> and just have the general tech level and how often we update our various stuff to the current cutting edge
  1008. [20:42] <powerofmind> you can fit a basic laser cannon for 5 space points, but after a bunch of levels of physics and miniaturization, it only takes 1
  1009. [20:42] <Vel> yeah but if you
  1010. [20:42] <Vel> trim it down to super general
  1011. [20:42] <powerofmind> that's not super-general trimming
  1012. [20:42] <Vel> Yeah I didn't mean that
  1013. [20:42] <@Skippeh> One thing that I recall, which may be germane here
  1014. [20:42] <George_> what I was talking about is yeah
  1015. [20:42] <Vel> I meant George saying 'handwave it all and just have a general tech level'
  1016. [20:42] <powerofmind> that's removing silly, supurfluous tech like light autocannon and assault cannon
  1017. [20:43] <Vel> yeah
  1018. [20:43] <@E3> AcademiaNut well you can still keep the Miniaturization I, II, III etc. in as a gating thing. I rather like that one. Most of the broad categories from the old tech tree are probably good to keep.
  1019. [20:43] <Vel> Not you powerofmind
  1020. [20:43] <@Skippeh> and SuperSonicSound and Aranfan will also recall
  1021. [20:43] <George_> a handful of tech levels I meant but yeah
  1022. [20:43] <powerofmind> when you already have autocannons
  1023. [20:43] == Skybreaker [webchat@207-255-41-208-dhcp.jst.pa.atlanticbb.net] has joined #AgeofStrife
  1024. [20:43] <@Skippeh> Is the way that research worked in Cherno Alpha Versus the World
  1025. [20:43] <Vel> Yeah we're meaning stuff like trimming down
  1026. [20:43] <Vel> the half dozen kinds of mechs which happen to have multi-limbs
  1027. [20:43] <@SuperSonicSound> Mmmm, interested to see where you're going there but that was very freeform
  1028. [20:43] <George_> that's just Anna's fault :P
  1029. [20:43] <Vel> Stuff like 'wall-crawler mechs' are cool but
  1030. [20:43] <Vel> And haha true
  1031. [20:43] <powerofmind> walkers, non-biped mechs, etc
  1032. [20:44] <Vel> Yeah
  1033. [20:44] <Vel> Walkers, nonbipeds, wall crawling
  1034. [20:44] <powerofmind> you can trim all that crap
  1035. [20:44] <@Skippeh> In that quest, players outlined the thing they'd like to shoot for and sketch then set the number of sucesses we'd need
  1036. [20:44] <George_> it's just staying true to her craziness
  1037. [20:44] <@Skippeh> Something like that- more player driven
  1038. [20:44] <powerofmind> down to 3 or 4 tech tiers of 'mech'
  1039. [20:44] <Vel> Stuff that actually has an actual impact
  1040. [20:44] <George_> but that's also easy stuff to write I think
  1041. [20:44] <George_> once you've done the first adding more mech designs isn't hard
  1042. [20:44] <@Skippeh> might preserve granularity and the feeling of having cool projects we can unlock
  1043. [20:44] <@Skippeh> whilst also significantly reducting the workload of writing things up
  1044. [20:44] <@Skippeh> on your end
  1045. [20:44] <Aranfan> Yeah, research in Cherno Quest was pretty nice
  1046. [20:44] <George_> so it's not critical to trim, you only need to make it consistent with what you do with the more difficult parts
  1047. [20:44] <@Skippeh> Like literally, players came up with an idea
  1048. [20:44] <Aranfan> We could research anything, even the impossible stuff
  1049. [20:45] <Aranfan> just if we researched impossible stuff it wouldn't do somthing
  1050. [20:45] <Vel> Yeah but does that work well with
  1051. [20:45] <Vel> A polity scale thing
  1052. [20:45] <Vel> Rather than improving your mech
  1053. [20:45] <Aranfan> and we had no idea what was impossible until it tried it
  1054. [20:45] <@Skippeh> Sketch said "roll for it", and we'd get some or no amount of progress, or unlock it in a turn, depending on how difficult it is based on our current level of advancement
  1055. [20:45] <George_> it sounds neat but is there room for it in the game
  1056. [20:45] <Aranfan> we tried it, rather
  1057. [20:45] <@Skippeh> It was polity scale stuff actually Vel
  1058. [20:45] <Vel> Really
  1059. [20:45] <Vel> Odd.
  1060. [20:45] <@SuperSonicSound> *nods*
  1061. [20:45] == Seventeen [webchat@d122-105-146-172.adl801.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #AgeofStrife
  1062. [20:45] <Vel> I'm not sure how well that would work though when you're trying to have some kind of consistent technological level though
  1063. [20:45] <@Skippeh> Most of the researches weren't even about the mech- there were conventional forces, economic upgrades, etc.
  1064. [20:46] <@SuperSonicSound> I GMed a sister quest but research in that quest was...
  1065. [20:46] <@SuperSonicSound> Ad-hoc
  1066. [20:46] <@Skippeh> Well AN would be very good at saying what we could conceivably shoot for, I'm sure
  1067. [20:46] <@SuperSonicSound> and whilst that's not strictly bad, it's definitely not systematic
  1068. [20:46] <George_> he's saying what we could conceivably shoot for now
  1069. [20:46] <Vel> True, true, just I'm not sure if that'd be more or less work for him
  1070. [20:47] <@Skippeh> Like this actually gels with what you're saying about more general research categories that outline basic stuff you'd be capable of- players would then come up with something roughly in that ballpark, and AN would say whether or not we could attempt it and then set a difficulty
  1071. [20:47] <@AcademiaNut> Well, the trial game I am thinking of would take place against a background of general tech advancement, so we could refine it down to 'What is the government working on?' and just say 'Oh, general tech hasn't advanced that far yet'
  1072. [20:47] <powerofmind> AN would be tendering requests from 70+ different people all coming up with different techs at once
  1073. [20:47] <powerofmind> it'd probably be worse for a while
  1074. [20:47] <@Skippeh> since the main pain of the old research system was cool ideas and writing blurbs for things- both of which would get a massive player generated prompt-
  1075. [20:47] <@SuperSonicSound> Nah
  1076. [20:47] <@Skippeh> it's a significant savings in workload
  1077. [20:47] <@SuperSonicSound> powerofmind you basically just ignore any tech requests not part of a winning plan
  1078. [20:47] <@SuperSonicSound> to skip that issue
  1079. [20:48] <@SuperSonicSound> so you don't deal with request bloat beyond "is this something that's not utterly impossible"
  1080. [20:48] <powerofmind> idk
  1081. [20:49] <Skybreaker> Honestly I'm fine with what happens as long as we have a chance to affect things once we reach an appropate level of power. Oh and that our characters not be forever barred from matching GW made characters with the exception of beings like the emperor and the primarchs.
  1082. [20:49] <George_> yes/no verdicts are a lot easier than writing out a cool tech tree
  1083. [20:49] <powerofmind> it seems like it would create a lot of work for AN
  1084. [20:49] <powerofmind> you know what ekans will do to his plans every time someone comes up with a half-way thought out tech
  1085. [20:49] <@E3> >.>
  1086. [20:49] <Vel> haha I don't think ekans is quite that bad lol
  1087. [20:49] <powerofmind> we all see you ekans
  1088. [20:49] <@E3> <.<
  1089. [20:49] <@AcademiaNut> Amber Age's upgrades are basically a tech tree
  1090. [20:49] <@Skippeh> Yeah it's the coming up with fifteen new cool ideas on your own every few turns and writing a blurb for them
  1091. [20:49] <@SuperSonicSound> Yea they are
  1092. [20:49] <George_> without the sentences explaining them
  1093. [20:49] <@Skippeh> Which is the tricky part- and yeah I was going to bring that up at some point
  1094. [20:49] <@AcademiaNut> And then updating everything
  1095. [20:49] <Vel> The trick with Ekans is just understanding that he spitsballs idaes
  1096. [20:50] <Vel> all of the ideas.
  1097. [20:50] <@E3> I do. Pretty much constantly. At least half of them are awful
  1098. [20:50] <@E3> XD
  1099. [20:50] <George_> you just give it a clever name and we guess
  1100. [20:50] <powerofmind> and then subsumes every idea that appears and puts a cherry on top and says 'this is the ekans vote'
  1101. [20:50] <@AcademiaNut> Ahem. Also, just to explain what the spin off test case game would be...
  1102. [20:50] == Seventeen [webchat@d122-105-146-172.adl801.sa.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout]
  1103. [20:51] <powerofmind> ohhh
  1104. [20:51] <Vel> go on
  1105. [20:51] <@Skippeh> Also I recall AcademiaNut, like, shooting the shit with players about what we might conceivably be able to do technologically quite frequently and that being fine- it dosen't strike me as onerous in quite the same way as writing and maintaining a tree.
  1106. [20:51] <@E3> I never pretend I came up with them powerofmind :p I just try to cobble them all together into the best arrangement I can figure out and also get people to vote for
  1107. [20:51] <@Skippeh> Oooh!
  1108. [20:51] == Skybreaker [webchat@207-255-41-208-dhcp.jst.pa.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  1109. [20:51] <powerofmind> that's sort of my point E3
  1110. [20:52] <powerofmind> if fifteen people come up with a tech that isn't initially included in your vote
  1111. [20:52] <@E3> Well would you prefer I NOT? XD
  1112. [20:52] <powerofmind> you'll include them all
  1113. [20:52] <George_> there'd be an action economy on it immediately if it became a lot of work to give verdicts on techs
  1114. [20:52] <@E3> lol like Vel said I'm not quite THAT bad :p
  1115. [20:52] <@E3> And I like the idea of just having broad tech categories with fewer specific projects, anyway
  1116. [20:52] <powerofmind> exactly
  1117. [20:52] <powerofmind> I like that as well
  1118. [20:52] <@SuperSonicSound> Also I kind of want to port Mirande to Amber age and just run her there :3
  1119. [20:52] <powerofmind> if we WANT something specific
  1120. [20:52] <@AcademiaNut> So the idea is to set it in a Lovecraftian cosmic horror setting. Start it in 1900 as a small sort of hobby society into more occult ideas, but by about the end of WW2 they are brought in by a government to be more like the BPRD or MiB to try to keep a lid on the weird alien things going on. By about 2000 they are more like XCOM, the only guys with the experience to deal with this shit
  1121. [20:52] <powerofmind> that An didn't include
  1122. [20:52] <powerofmind> we can just take it
  1123. [20:52] <@SuperSonicSound> Mirande will be god of everything in no time :p
  1124. [20:52] <powerofmind> and ask for it
  1125. [20:53] <Vel> Oh so this is the Delta Green/Laundry game
  1126. [20:53] <Vel> That you mentioned.
  1127. [20:53] <powerofmind> awesome :D
  1128. [20:53] <Vel> Yeah I'm all aboard
  1129. [20:53] <Vel> the delta green/laundry-style
  1130. [20:53] <Vel> thing
  1131. [20:53] <powerofmind> let's do it!
  1132. [20:53] <Vel> To the maximum.
  1133. [20:53] <George_> I don't have a lot of experience in the genre but I'm sure you'll do it well
  1134. [20:53] <powerofmind> so
  1135. [20:53] <powerofmind> in this case
  1136. [20:53] <George_> though I'll miss not having a dynasty or immortal character
  1137. [20:53] <@SuperSonicSound> We shall call our selves "The people of letters"
  1138. [20:53] <@SuperSonicSound> :<
  1139. [20:53] <George_> heh
  1140. [20:53] <powerofmind> would we, the player council, be the shadowy figure on the screen in XCom
  1141. [20:53] <@E3> George_ the game's only lasting a century and change anyway :p
  1142. [20:54] <Vel> yeah
  1143. [20:54] <Vel> Because, like Delta Green/Laundry/whatever
  1144. [20:54] <Vel> You're just postponing the inevitable.
  1145. [20:54] <Vel> And/or preparing for it
  1146. [20:54] <George_> sure but that's 3 main characters if it's a main character sort of game
  1147. [20:54] <@AcademiaNut> And by about 2020 you've basically run out of time. Either the apocalypse has come (maybe you've survived) or you've managed to find a way to survive in a hostile universe. Either way, the story of your struggle has reached a conclusion
  1148. [20:54] <George_> at the minimum
  1149. [20:54] <powerofmind> or would we be the commanding officers in the actual military group
  1150. [20:54] <George_> how do we know that we've found a way to survive in a hostile universe
  1151. [20:54] <@E3> AcademiaNut important question: If this is a council-type thing, would it involve RP or no?
  1152. [20:54] <@SuperSonicSound> AcademiaNut One concern I do have though is that we'll connect less with the characters I think I said this previously before you joined the chat, but with Amber Age whilst I do enjoy reading I'm not connecting with the character in the same was as with Age of strife
  1153. [20:54] <George_> we should have a specific way to end it
  1154. [20:55] <George_> or at least some good ideas so we expect it
  1155. [20:55] <Vel> we know when the game ends and when we get an epilogue :p
  1156. [20:55] <Vel> Probably
  1157. [20:55] <Vel> I mean it should be apparent
  1158. [20:55] <Vel> By reducing casualties and stuff
  1159. [20:55] <Vel> I'm sure AN will give hints/news reports/some kind of way
  1160. [20:55] <George_> yeah it depends how much and what sort of information we're getting
  1161. [20:55] <Vel> To evaluate our general state on the world
  1162. [20:55] <powerofmind> fewest casualties with the highest instance of integration of the demands of the world we'd live in
  1163. [20:56] == DaBoyz [webchat@128.230.139.98] has joined #AgeofStrife
  1164. [20:56] <@SuperSonicSound> PoV in the new system is something I am concerned about, as with Harzivan in Amber age things feel a lot more disconnected if that makes sense?
  1165. [20:56] <Vel> And our general impact on the world in general
  1166. [20:56] <@AcademiaNut> This would allow for the test of character interactions, base/empire building, tech advancements, horrible gribbly monsters, and psychic powers
  1167. [20:56] == Quaker932 [webchat@pool-108-49-25-195.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  1168. [20:56] <@SuperSonicSound> *nod*
  1169. [20:56] <DaBoyz> I'll admit I'm kinda worried about the new system.
  1170. [20:56] <powerofmind> well, we'd only be testing the council system, right?
  1171. [20:56] <George_> would it test the action resolution of a ruthlessly optimized lucky character?
  1172. [20:56] <Vel> But yeah I'm all for the Delta-Green-Laundry playtest system
  1173. [20:56] <DaBoyz> I was more invested in the quest when we were just screwing around with Mirande.
  1174. [20:57] <powerofmind> if it doesn't go over well, we can always go back to
  1175. [20:57] <powerofmind> 'tyrant' voting
  1176. [20:57] <Vel> But yeah I'm a fan.
  1177. [20:57] <@AcademiaNut> And I would open things up to more roleplaying amongst the players and writing side stories about main characters and the like.
  1178. [20:57] <DaBoyz> I for one welcome our Psyker overlady.
  1179. [20:58] <powerofmind> yeah
  1180. [20:58] <powerofmind> i'm gonna love that
  1181. [20:58] <powerofmind> Totally willing to get in character come debate time for votes
  1182. [20:58] <@SuperSonicSound> I think a stress test of the system using potentially broken combinations would be a good idea
  1183. [20:58] <@SuperSonicSound> but that's something to worry about later
  1184. [20:58] <Vel> Yeah I think
  1185. [20:58] <powerofmind> it's the chtulu mythos
  1186. [20:58] <Vel> Stress testing is pretty important
  1187. [20:58] <Vel> ...sanity testing :p
  1188. [20:58] <powerofmind> there's a lot of shit in the broken category
  1189. [20:58] <Vel> If the game system doesn't work, obviously we've lost a lot of san points
  1190. [20:59] <@AcademiaNut> Fortunately, by being somewhat more detached we can literally destructively test the characters!
  1191. [20:59] <Vel> Yep
  1192. [20:59] <powerofmind> eeeexcellent
  1193. [20:59] <Vel> We're gonna die
  1194. [20:59] <Vel> Several times.
  1195. [20:59] <@SuperSonicSound> So many times
  1196. [20:59] <Vel> All aboard the asyluym train.
  1197. [20:59] <Vel> Asylums for everyone
  1198. [20:59] <@SuperSonicSound> Any way...
  1199. [20:59] <powerofmind> LETS GET DARKEST DUNGEON UP IN THIS QUEST
  1200. [20:59] <Vel> Straightjacket for you
  1201. [20:59] * SuperSonicSound goes to bed
  1202. [20:59] <Vel> Straightjacket for me
  1203. [20:59] <@SuperSonicSound> gnight every one o/
  1204. [20:59] <Vel> Straightjacket for everybody.
  1205. [20:59] <@AcademiaNut> So if your Operations Director is getting a bit too OP I can stick them into a bad situation and we can see where things go wrong
  1206. [20:59] <Vel> Night, SSS.
  1207. [20:59] <@AcademiaNut> Night
  1208. [20:59] <DaBoyz> Night
  1209. [21:00] <powerofmind> or you could kill everyone all the time
  1210. [21:00] <@AcademiaNut> That works too
  1211. [21:00] == SuperSonicSound [webchat@host-84-9-158-32.dslgb.com] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  1212. [21:00] <Vel> Well I wouldn't kill everyone -all the time-
  1213. [21:00] <Vel> but yeah
  1214. [21:00] <powerofmind> if we never get attached to the characters, it's hard to actually wish the game goes beyond the stop date
  1215. [21:00] <Vel> I see no reason not to run things with Anyone Can Die
  1216. [21:00] <Vel> Getting attached to the characters isn't bad as long as we don't get too attached
  1217. [21:00] <George_> yeah a higher casualty rate sounds good
  1218. [21:00] <Vel> But yeah
  1219. [21:00] <powerofmind> exactly, Darkest Dungeon mode
  1220. [21:01] <Fumbles> I choose to believe this quest is a continuation of New Blood and you can't stop me.
  1221. [21:01] <@Skippeh> One Last Night at the Opera
  1222. [21:01] <powerofmind> there's literally a disclaimer when you start the game telling you that your party members will die
  1223. [21:01] <powerofmind> probably a lot
  1224. [21:01] <@Skippeh> my approach to CoC was always dynamite first
  1225. [21:01] <powerofmind> and it's all working as intended
  1226. [21:01] <George_> and I'm sure we can just theory craft builds that we could develop with decent conditions and see how they fair
  1227. [21:01] <@Skippeh> ask questions /never/
  1228. [21:01] <@AcademiaNut> Or, you know, if a character gets too OP I can have them being elsewhere getting treatment or training others and pull them out in emergencies
  1229. [21:01] <Vel> Smart man, Skippeh.
  1230. [21:01] <Vel> Smart man.
  1231. [21:01] <@Skippeh> we killed glaaki once
  1232. [21:01] <Vel> Huh, really?
  1233. [21:01] <George_> ugh, not the bus!
  1234. [21:01] <@AcademiaNut> Hehehehehe
  1235. [21:01] <Vel> Neat.
  1236. [21:02] <@AcademiaNut> Anyway, one of the reasons I called for a general chat here is that there is an element of general worldbuilding I wanted to get done quickly
  1237. [21:02] <@Skippeh> well its chamber is literally at the BOTTOM OF A SLOPED PASSAGE
  1238. [21:02] <Vel> Alright
  1239. [21:02] <powerofmind> cool
  1240. [21:02] <powerofmind> lay it on us
  1241. [21:02] <Aranfan> lay it on us
  1242. [21:02] <George_> though prestiging characters into a training bonus is itself a munchkin thing to pursue
  1243. [21:02] <Aranfan> ninja'd
  1244. [21:02] <Vel> Reveal your unholy wisdom, oh dread one.
  1245. [21:02] <powerofmind> woah, trippy
  1246. [21:03] <powerofmind> prestiging people into teachers is kind of a real life thing to do though
  1247. [21:03] <Vel> Heh
  1248. [21:03] <powerofmind> else how would we have ever created things like martial arts
  1249. [21:03] <powerofmind> or writing
  1250. [21:03] <powerofmind> or... fuck, anything, really
  1251. [21:03] <Vel> pft, you do it by grunting
  1252. [21:03] <Vel> in a manly way
  1253. [21:04] <Vel> and bulging your muscles
  1254. [21:04] <Vel> until pure inspiration drips from your temple
  1255. [21:04] <@AcademiaNut> So I have a couple of ideas for an initial 'society'. They are: explorer's society, university, hospital, and secret society. I will detail the pros and cons of each, but can anyone think of anything else? Government sanction is to come later in play
  1256. [21:04] <Vel> and falls down in the form of a beautiful woman
  1257. [21:04] <Vel> in full armor
  1258. [21:04] <powerofmind> harzivan is an exception, not an excuse
  1259. [21:04] <Vel> Zeus style.
  1260. [21:04] <Vel> Haha
  1261. [21:04] <powerofmind> hmmm
  1262. [21:04] <@E3> AcademiaNut Ancient Cabal?
  1263. [21:04] <Vel> It could be like...what was that
  1264. [21:04] <DaBoyz> Secret Society?
  1265. [21:04] <Vel> Weird Victorian pseudo religious movement
  1266. [21:04] <@E3> Not like... secret.
  1267. [21:04] <DaBoyz> Like a cult within a larger society?
  1268. [21:04] <powerofmind> so the initial society is basically occult-oriented any of those things, right?
  1269. [21:04] <@E3> Just
  1270. [21:05] <Aranfan> I can think of one
  1271. [21:05] <Vel> Theosophy
  1272. [21:05] <Vel> Theosophy I think
  1273. [21:05] <@AcademiaNut> Bit more modern. Secret Societies are more like the Freemasons or Knights of Columbus or what have you
  1274. [21:05] <George_> does leave out honest to god religious cults
  1275. [21:05] <Vel> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy
  1276. [21:05] <Aranfan> like the parapsychology society that never went anywhere IRL
  1277. [21:05] <Vel> Theosophy is great.
  1278. [21:05] <@E3> Yes, mystery cult type stuff
  1279. [21:05] <@AcademiaNut> They're mostly Old Boy's Clubs
  1280. [21:05] <Vel> A theosophic organization is pretty much perfect for this
  1281. [21:05] <powerofmind> what about the explorer's society?
  1282. [21:05] <Vel> Approaching the spiritual in a scientific way, highly old boys
  1283. [21:05] <@AcademiaNut> Okay, to detail out the pros and cons
  1284. [21:06] <powerofmind> technically, any society we choose will act in a theosophic manner
  1285. [21:06] <Vel> yeah
  1286. [21:06] <Vel> but even before this
  1287. [21:06] <powerofmind> because we will
  1288. [21:06] <Vel> Theosophy is a specific philosophy though
  1289. [21:06] <Vel> Which was quite popular and trendy
  1290. [21:07] <Aranfan> in nWOD there's a group of hunters that are basically scientists
  1291. [21:07] <Vel> There was even a Theosophic Society
  1292. [21:07] <Aranfan> sadly the setting is probably too early for Network Zero to be a viable start point
  1293. [21:07] <powerofmind> :P
  1294. [21:07] <Vel> I don't think the scientists in NWoD were Network Zero
  1295. [21:07] <Vel> Wasn't it Null mysterium
  1296. [21:07] <@AcademiaNut> Explorer's Society: bonuses to exploring expeditions, bonuses to influence from successful expeditions, extremely limited project capacities outside expeditions
  1297. [21:07] <Aranfan> network zero isn't the scientists
  1298. [21:07] <Vel> Yeah
  1299. [21:07] <powerofmind> hmm
  1300. [21:07] <Vel> Network Zero is
  1301. [21:07] <Vel> Supernatural watchmen 4chan anonymous
  1302. [21:07] <Vel> people
  1303. [21:07] <Aranfan> yeah, Null Mysterium, that's what the scientists are
  1304. [21:07] <powerofmind> so basically exploring is going to find weird shit like haunted houses and whatnot?
  1305. [21:08] <powerofmind> old temples, that sort of thing?
  1306. [21:08] <powerofmind> the artifact seeker style
  1307. [21:08] <@AcademiaNut> University: bonuses to research, broadest possibility of projects, poor intrigue options
  1308. [21:09] <Vel> Secret Societies ala Theosophic Organization. You could also do a Pinkerton-style detective/unionbuster organization
  1309. [21:09] <@Skippeh> Explorers would probably also have, like, a pretty good understanding of indigenous shamanic stuff & folk traditions.
  1310. [21:09] == Odysseus2099 [webchat@70.15.91.172] has quit [Ping timeout]
  1311. [21:09] <@AcademiaNut> And yeah, the explorers are the guys doing archaeological digs, searching for the origins of rivers deep in jungles, going to the poles, that sort of thing
  1312. [21:09] <Vel> If you want an investigative/leg-breaker organization
  1313. [21:09] <@Skippeh> Depending on the kind you're talking about.
  1314. [21:09] <powerofmind> fairly obvious, tech and magi-tech for universities
  1315. [21:09] <Vel> Pinkerton-style unionbreaker-detectives would be in
  1316. [21:09] <Vel> Around the 1900 startdate
  1317. [21:09] <powerofmind> immediate advantage is obvious
  1318. [21:09] <@AcademiaNut> Hospitals: excellent medical and psychological research opportunities, limited options for everything else
  1319. [21:10] <powerofmind> hero unit spammer
  1320. [21:10] <Aranfan> Other option is have a bunch of detectives who stumbled into esoteric stuff and talk to each other about it. Without marrying them to being unionbusters
  1321. [21:10] <powerofmind> and maintainer
  1322. [21:10] <Vel> Yeah true
  1323. [21:10] <Vel> But that's a bit more generic
  1324. [21:10] <@AcademiaNut> Secret Societies: improved funding capacities, only ones that can start with intrigue actions, most other projects unavailable at start
  1325. [21:10] <powerofmind> infrastructure/economic
  1326. [21:10] <Vel> Infrastructure is obviously
  1327. [21:11] <Vel> Wealthy aristocrats
  1328. [21:11] <Vel> with too much time
  1329. [21:11] <@Skippeh> Secret Society is very tempting
  1330. [21:11] <@E3> Secret Society sounds like the cheese build, so it's my choice :D
  1331. [21:11] <Vel> and/or big business
  1332. [21:11] <powerofmind> likely to run operations through massed manpower
  1333. [21:11] <@Skippeh> ahahaha Ekans
  1334. [21:11] <powerofmind> rather than finesse
  1335. [21:11] <@Skippeh> aiiight
  1336. [21:11] <Aranfan> As a lefty irl I would prefer not marrying an option to unionbusting
  1337. [21:11] <George_> secret society is good if the system for the other projects aren't broken
  1338. [21:11] <powerofmind> I'm strongly, strongly tempted to go for explorer's guild
  1339. [21:11] <Vel> I don't think IRL politics have much to do with this
  1340. [21:11] <Vel> I mean this is the 1900s
  1341. [21:11] <powerofmind> so I will put my hat in for the artifact master
  1342. [21:12] <powerofmind> random powerful effects
  1343. [21:12] <@E3> Aranfan never let irl politics influence game choices XD you must be removed. Delve into the deepest IC depths
  1344. [21:12] <powerofmind> to make up for sucking at other areas
  1345. [21:12] <George_> but there may be building benefits of other projects that the secret societies can't leverage
  1346. [21:12] <Aranfan> Har har, I'd just feel uncomfortable
  1347. [21:12] <powerofmind> and you can always support them by selling weaker artifacts
  1348. [21:13] <powerofmind> it's the build most suited to the extended discussion we usually have
  1349. [21:13] <George_> I'm against murder but I get over it for games
  1350. [21:13] <powerofmind> Explorer's guild, I mean
  1351. [21:13] <@Skippeh> ehh tbh if you aren't grabbed by something you aren't grabbed by it
  1352. [21:13] <@Skippeh> also, what did they call that defence in Vampire?
  1353. [21:13] <Vel> celerity?
  1354. [21:13] <@Skippeh> The Nuremburg In Character Defense?
  1355. [21:14] <@AcademiaNut> University is the most 'jack of all trades' build. They get the most capacity to do stuff but are middling at most of it outside of pure research (which will hit roadblocks without doing other projects). The others are more specialized, with Explorers having the most flexibility out of all of them. Hospital is probably the least flexible but with a narrow focus it can do a lot in that focus
  1356. [21:14] <powerofmind> Explorers
  1357. [21:14] <powerofmind> that just made it more solid for me
  1358. [21:14] <@Skippeh> I want secret society
  1359. [21:14] <@Skippeh> we will be wiiizzzaaraarrrddss
  1360. [21:14] <Vel> Secret Society is the one I'd go for yeah
  1361. [21:14] <Vel> Though
  1362. [21:14] <@Skippeh> WIZARDS
  1363. [21:14] <Vel> It does get us away
  1364. [21:14] <Vel> from delta green
  1365. [21:15] <Vel> and more towards Laundry
  1366. [21:15] <Vel> But that's cool
  1367. [21:15] <@Skippeh> YER A WIZARD HARRY
  1368. [21:15] <Vel> You more mean
  1369. [21:15] <Vel> SORCEROUS RITUALIST
  1370. [21:15] <Vel> I cast PENTAGRAMMIC TENTACLES
  1371. [21:15] <Vel> it backfired
  1372. [21:15] <@Skippeh> YES EXACTLY
  1373. [21:15] <Vel> YOU TUREND INTO A WRITHING MASS OF FLESH
  1374. [21:15] <powerofmind> D:
  1375. [21:15] <@Skippeh> :D
  1376. [21:15] <powerofmind> but objects of great power!
  1377. [21:15] <powerofmind> THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND
  1378. [21:15] <Vel> BEST STUFF
  1379. [21:15] <powerofmind> WE MUST USE THEM ALL
  1380. [21:15] <Vel> OBVIOUSLY
  1381. [21:16] <Vel> This would not be in the spirit of delta green or laundry or cthulu
  1382. [21:16] <Vel> if we were not using
  1383. [21:16] <Vel> objects of great power
  1384. [21:16] <Vel> that cause horrible side effects
  1385. [21:16] <powerofmind> then I say explorers!
  1386. [21:16] <Vel> to get any kind of vague edge on things
  1387. [21:16] <powerofmind> MORE ARTIFACTS ALL THE TIME
  1388. [21:16] <Vel> Pft, secret societies can have
  1389. [21:16] <Vel> BOOKS
  1390. [21:16] <Vel> of SECRET AND FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE
  1391. [21:16] <powerofmind> and we can totes 'acquire' them all
  1392. [21:16] <Vel> hahaha
  1393. [21:16] <@AcademiaNut> You can also branch out over time. So some of your projects can be to expand your capacities. Secret Societies can do things like fund hospitals or universities to gain access to some of their facilities
  1394. [21:17] <powerofmind> so secret societies are the chameleon pick
  1395. [21:17] <powerofmind> 'we need X' 'let's buy it for a temp boost'
  1396. [21:18] <@Skippeh> We need to do something to equal Delta Green
  1397. [21:18] <@Skippeh> repeatedly casting Contact Deep Ones
  1398. [21:18] <@E3> AcademiaNut that was the thing I was wondering about, and a big part of why I'm mostly interested in Secret Society. Gives you the most leverage early on which you can parlay into a broader resource base faster if that's where you focus.
  1399. [21:18] <@Skippeh> then machine-gunning them
  1400. [21:18] <@Skippeh> so that Deep Ones
  1401. [21:18] == Aranfan [webchat@ool-944ae5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
  1402. [21:18] <@Skippeh> no longer respond to Contact spells :D
  1403. [21:18] <Vel> hahaha
  1404. [21:18] <powerofmind> i still want to be an explorer's guild
  1405. [21:18] <Vel> of course.
  1406. [21:18] <Vel> best plan
  1407. [21:19] <powerofmind> *pouts
  1408. [21:19] <Vel> oh man now I'm getting excited about this game as its own thng, hah.
  1409. [21:19] <powerofmind> secret societies start out being able to do basically nothing on their own
  1410. [21:19] <powerofmind> all they can do is intrigue to set others up to do it for them
  1411. [21:20] <Vel> Sure but it gives us an excuse to do a bunch of
  1412. [21:20] <Vel> Theft actions
  1413. [21:20] <Vel> Daring escapes
  1414. [21:20] <Vel> Infiltration
  1415. [21:20] <Vel> Someone can even be Occult James Bond Sherlock Holmes
  1416. [21:20] <Vel> The combination.
  1417. [21:20] <powerofmind> can we really?
  1418. [21:20] <@AcademiaNut> Pretty much. Also, can anyone think of any other general categories that might be viable picks?
  1419. [21:20] <powerofmind> or would we just be paying someone ELSE to do it?
  1420. [21:21] <Vel> You could possibly do a veteran's society
  1421. [21:21] <powerofmind> not particularly
  1422. [21:21] <Vel> too bad this starts before WWI
  1423. [21:21] <Vel> but at the least you could do crimean and
  1424. [21:21] <Vel> various other imperial wars
  1425. [21:21] <Vel> Vets.
  1426. [21:21] <George_> the game also starts out with nothing needing to be done directly, so they're in a tenable position
  1427. [21:21] <powerofmind> do we really need to do nothing directly?
  1428. [21:21] <Vel> Maybe the Mafia?
  1429. [21:22] <@AcademiaNut> I would say that a veteran's society would generally fall under 'secret society'. The label is a bit narrow for what I really mean
  1430. [21:22] <powerofmind> that sounds interesting
  1431. [21:22] <powerofmind> and rather funny
  1432. [21:22] <Vel> Everyone likes Cosa Nostra
  1433. [21:22] <@AcademiaNut> Hmmmmm...
  1434. [21:22] <George_> what about a corporate think tank?
  1435. [21:22] <powerofmind> so secret society includes pretty much anything with 'wealth and power'
  1436. [21:22] <Vel> I don't think corporate think tanks really exist yet
  1437. [21:22] <Vel> as a concept
  1438. [21:23] <George_> ah, 1900, good point
  1439. [21:23] <powerofmind> that kind of covers mafia, doesn't it?
  1440. [21:23] <@Skippeh> We're being strict about non-governmental right
  1441. [21:23] <Vel> I don't know, the mafia is more
  1442. [21:23] <Vel> about beating in heads
  1443. [21:23] <Vel> and criminality
  1444. [21:23] <Vel> Than using wealth and infiltration
  1445. [21:23] <powerofmind> which mafia are you thinking of?
  1446. [21:23] <Vel> Sicilian or Italian
  1447. [21:23] <@AcademiaNut> These are possibly sub-categories that could also be decided on. So, if we pick Secret Society we could have things like Gentleman's Clubs, Veteran's Associations, Legitimate Businessmen's Clubs, Detective Agency, what have you. Same for the other groups
  1448. [21:23] <powerofmind> i still want an explorer's society
  1449. [21:24] <@Skippeh> It would be hilariously OP
  1450. [21:24] <@Skippeh> to play the Hellsing Foundation
  1451. [21:24] <Vel> haha
  1452. [21:24] == Shard [webchat@211.25.197.62] has joined #AgeofStrife
  1453. [21:24] <Vel> Yes, no Hellsing for us.
  1454. [21:24] <@AcademiaNut> Hellsing is New Game+ :P
  1455. [21:24] <@Skippeh> like not that explicitly, but something like it
  1456. [21:24] <powerofmind> I want that immediate power spike upward, in order to spread outward
  1457. [21:24] <powerofmind> haaa
  1458. [21:24] <@Skippeh> AcademiaNut: lol
  1459. [21:24] <@AcademiaNut> Poor Shard, walking in on that
  1460. [21:24] <Vel> NO CONTEXT
  1461. [21:26] <Vel> I guess you could also do the Irish mafia or something
  1462. [21:26] <George_> what about a community following a famous scientist like edison or tesla
  1463. [21:26] <Vel> Yeah I considered Edison
  1464. [21:26] <Vel> But I wasn't sure
  1465. [21:26] <powerofmind> wouldn't that be a form of university?
  1466. [21:26] <Vel> If he's really unique about
  1467. [21:26] <Vel> Yeah
  1468. [21:26] <George_> different goals
  1469. [21:26] <powerofmind> Xians or Xinites
  1470. [21:26] <Vel> I mean Edison is admittedly corporate
  1471. [21:26] <@AcademiaNut> Secret Society or I suppose a subset of University or Explorer's Society
  1472. [21:26] <Vel> And about selling money
  1473. [21:26] <Vel> But still more of a subset
  1474. [21:26] <Vel> Making money*
  1475. [21:26] <Vel> Selling money, hah.
  1476. [21:26] <powerofmind> I'll sell you this dime for two nickles
  1477. [21:26] <George_> but it's not secret, they're public and tell everyone what they're about
  1478. [21:27] <George_> and it's not a university, there's no endowment and no students
  1479. [21:27] <@AcademiaNut> Welp, stock market shenanigans are definitely now a possibility
  1480. [21:27] <Vel> Yeah
  1481. [21:27] <Vel> Actually you know
  1482. [21:27] <Vel> In counterfeit money operations
  1483. [21:27] <Vel> I suppose people may literally sell money
  1484. [21:27] <Vel> You pay for fake money with real money.
  1485. [21:27] <powerofmind> exactly
  1486. [21:27] <powerofmind> so
  1487. [21:27] <George_> granted science commune is a little narrow as a category
  1488. [21:27] <@Skippeh> I'm veering away from the Explorer Society simply because every time someone says it
  1489. [21:27] <DaBoyz> So this is how mankinds last defense against the tentacled dark ended.
  1490. [21:27] <@Skippeh> I think of the Super Adventure Club
  1491. [21:28] <DaBoyz> With a stock market crash.
  1492. [21:28] <@Skippeh> from South Park
  1493. [21:28] <Vel> ADVENTURE TIME
  1494. [21:28] <powerofmind> FK YEAH
  1495. [21:28] <George_> explorer's society just doesn't sound like it has any teeth to me
  1496. [21:28] <powerofmind> oh wait
  1497. [21:28] <powerofmind> those guys
  1498. [21:28] <@Skippeh> yes
  1499. [21:28] <@Skippeh> those guys
  1500. [21:28] <Vel> yep
  1501. [21:28] <George_> no one's going to believe them if they say there are dangerous occult forces afoot
  1502. [21:28] <powerofmind> technically they're a secret society
  1503. [21:28] <George_> and they have no funds to leverage
  1504. [21:28] <@AcademiaNut> Oh, on the note of stock market manipulations. While most historical events are weighted towards happening, you can influence them if you want... but beware too much meddling. You *can* make the Cuban Missile Crisis go hot if you aren't careful
  1505. [21:28] <Vel> hey
  1506. [21:28] <powerofmind> the point isn't that they have funds
  1507. [21:28] <Vel> it's marginally better than dying to gribblies
  1508. [21:28] <Vel> Imagine
  1509. [21:28] <Vel> Deliberately triggering a nuclear war
  1510. [21:29] <@Skippeh> We shall avert WW1!
  1511. [21:29] <Vel> To eliminate a Case Nightmare Green
  1512. [21:29] <powerofmind> the point is that they're supercharged on artifact finding
  1513. [21:29] <Vel> And yeah WWI is relatively avertable
  1514. [21:29] <Vel> I mean it's a result
  1515. [21:29] <George_> wouldn't want to piss off the eldritch time god
  1516. [21:29] <Vel> of a powder-keg
  1517. [21:29] <Vel> Of obligations
  1518. [21:29] <powerofmind> and finding and deciphering artifacts can lead to huge varieties of random bonuses
  1519. [21:29] <powerofmind> not the least of which is selling inert ones
  1520. [21:29] <Vel> But actually I can see an event in which we would want to set off nuclear war
  1521. [21:29] <Vel> There are worse things than nuclear war.
  1522. [21:29] <@Skippeh> lol that would be a hilarious ending
  1523. [21:30] <George_> similar to a think tank's advantages then, but better geared toward the setting, a group of people with the right skills
  1524. [21:30] <Vel> heh
  1525. [21:30] <DaBoyz> Who says it has to be an ending?
  1526. [21:30] <Vel> Yeah I mean it's not necessarily a true ending
  1527. [21:30] <George_> depends how big a nuclear war it is
  1528. [21:30] <George_> if MAD protocols are engaged the quest should probably just end
  1529. [21:30] <Vel> We do know that a lot of the whole
  1530. [21:30] <Vel> nuclear winter stuff
  1531. [21:30] <Vel> was overstated
  1532. [21:30] <@AcademiaNut> Yeah. Explorers will be the ones who early on will be finding lost cities in deserts and mountains and arctic plains and finding out new things. They can branch out into research of their finds from there. Hmmm... ironically the *hospital* idea is probably the one that can go combat oriented fastest
  1533. [21:30] <Vel> So a full nuclear war probably wouldn't be as bad as it was once thought
  1534. [21:31] == Phantrosity [~Heretek@cpe-98-26-1-171.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
  1535. [21:31] <Vel> And huh
  1536. [21:31] <Vel> Why the hospital?
  1537. [21:31] <George_> how's the hospital go combat focused
  1538. [21:31] <@E3> FRANKENSTEIN MONSTERS OBVIOUSLY
  1539. [21:32] <George_> are the weapons we need against the aliens hugely different from conventional weapons?
  1540. [21:32] <Vel> I think he more meant that
  1541. [21:32] <Vel> You can heal troops
  1542. [21:32] <powerofmind> and provide psychological assistance
  1543. [21:32] <@AcademiaNut> Research into psychics and 'special serums' and reanimation, and you can have 'response teams' to deal with the 'psychologically disturbed'
  1544. [21:32] <Vel> Yeah
  1545. [21:32] <@E3> Frankenstein Monsters, damn it.
  1546. [21:32] <powerofmind> and subsequently develop BETTER psychological assistance
  1547. [21:32] <Vel> Well that too
  1548. [21:32] <George_> hmm okay
  1549. [21:32] <George_> I was forgetting to adjust to 1900 again
  1550. [21:32] <powerofmind> basically mind armor and body armor
  1551. [21:32] <Vel> Ekans was right
  1552. [21:32] <Vel> Haha
  1553. [21:32] <@E3> hehehe
  1554. [21:32] <powerofmind> hospital is super cheese combat build
  1555. [21:33] <@E3> Herbert West, hero of Earth.
  1556. [21:33] <powerofmind> i had figured it from the getgo
  1557. [21:33] <@AcademiaNut> Oh man, can you imagine Herbert West in XCOM?
  1558. [21:33] <powerofmind> explorers, like I thought, have an early power spike that can send them spiralling in random directions from there
  1559. [21:33] <@E3> "He's dead!" "... Barely."
  1560. [21:33] <@AcademiaNut> Yup
  1561. [21:33] <powerofmind> as well as the ever-important INFORMATION factor
  1562. [21:33] <Vel> Yep
  1563. [21:34] <powerofmind> secret societies can play all the cards, but only get part of the reward and don't have direct input on any projects
  1564. [21:34] <Vel> Still
  1565. [21:34] <@E3> University is tech snowball, Hospital is combat snowball, Secret Society is resource snowball and Explorers' Society is <???> Snowball
  1566. [21:34] <Vel> I like secret society
  1567. [21:34] <@E3> same
  1568. [21:34] <@E3> Illuminati, motherfuckers.
  1569. [21:35] <@Skippeh> I guess
  1570. [21:35] <powerofmind> :/
  1571. [21:35] <Vel> We will call ourselves the Minullati
  1572. [21:35] <powerofmind> i still want explorer's su
  1573. [21:35] <Vel> Obviously
  1574. [21:35] <@Skippeh> wait didn't mean to type that
  1575. [21:35] <Vel> haha what?
  1576. [21:35] <Vel> Lol
  1577. [21:35] <@E3> Did you mean to send it to us via psychic communication?
  1578. [21:35] <George_> all of them need some careful tending and branching out to snowball
  1579. [21:35] <@Skippeh> yes
  1580. [21:35] <George_> except maybe explorer's
  1581. [21:36] <George_> but there may be hard limits on how much you can find out there
  1582. [21:36] <powerofmind> that's the thing
  1583. [21:36] <@Skippeh> anyway the one other one that occurs to me we could have an option would be, like, a religious society
  1584. [21:36] <@Skippeh> vatican exorcists or some shit
  1585. [21:36] <powerofmind> explorer's start with the one thing that just wrecked us in amber age
  1586. [21:36] <powerofmind> information
  1587. [21:36] <George_> I mentioned religious cult earlier
  1588. [21:36] <@Skippeh> oh cool
  1589. [21:36] <Vel> Yeah
  1590. [21:37] <@Skippeh> i mean i'm not drawn to it but since we were brainstorming
  1591. [21:37] <powerofmind> pretty sure AN said that was a secret society sub-form
  1592. [21:37] <@Skippeh> anyway i like secret society
  1593. [21:37] <George_> I'm not sure amber age is a strong example in this context, but information is definitely powerful
  1594. [21:37] == AbbyNormal [webchat@c-98-249-6-51.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  1595. [21:37] <George_> but for information, secret societies are the only one starting with intrigue actions
  1596. [21:37] == Fumbles [webchat@97-81-165-72.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  1597. [21:38] <powerofmind> but explorers can end every 'turn' with a successful artifact collection or more
  1598. [21:38] <powerofmind> which can be sold(if it sucks) to fund more action
  1599. [21:38] <Vel> True, but the delicious money and spy-action
  1600. [21:38] <Vel> And BOOKS
  1601. [21:38] <George_> but secret societies just have money
  1602. [21:38] <@AcademiaNut> Well, they all need to gather resources to do their projects. Explorers probably can't send out a major expedition every year
  1603. [21:38] <George_> and don't need to sell artifacts
  1604. [21:39] <powerofmind> I still support the idea that an explorer's society will fit best with the way people will end up voting
  1605. [21:39] <@Skippeh> will there be other organizations out there
  1606. [21:39] <Vel> Probably-maybe it seems in theme.
  1607. [21:39] <Vel> DG and LF both had multiple organizatoins
  1608. [21:39] <@Skippeh> in the same sense that the dragonflies and 504s represented different "starts" we could've taken
  1609. [21:40] <powerofmind> exactly, which is why we should be explorers!
  1610. [21:42] <powerofmind> if we're a secret society, the first thing we'll do is try to get an artifact. If it's a good one, the next thing we'll do is try to get even more artifacts until the only ones left are basically impossible to get
  1611. [21:42] <@AcademiaNut> Yes. Since I might as well address the racist elephant in the room, while Lovecraft is an obvious inspiration, you're going to be running into dickbag white people just as often as superstitious people from Africa and Asia. Bored rich white people fucking around with eldritch tomes they don't understand will be something that happens. Herbert West/Mengele expies will be out there. The Thule Society is likely to be a rival in
  1612. [21:42] <@Skippeh> racist elephants are such bores
  1613. [21:42] <@Skippeh> when they get started you can never shut them up
  1614. [21:43] <@E3> Obviously when we find Herbert Wests and the like causing trouble out there, we need to try and recruit them. Squire, prepare my Fulton balloons.
  1615. [21:44] <powerofmind> so hang on
  1616. [21:44] <powerofmind> are we just ironing out your first post for you, AN?
  1617. [21:44] <@Skippeh> that sounds kewl tho
  1618. [21:45] <Vel> Haha
  1619. [21:45] <powerofmind> because if we are I'd prefer to go die for ten or so hours in bed
  1620. [21:46] <@Skippeh> also tbh even in actual lovecraft, white people meddling with shit they don't understand actually tended to be the driver of problems in stories more frequently, iirc
  1621. [21:46] <powerofmind> I'd love to help, but if, at the end of the day, it's just polish, I got work in the mornin'
  1622. [21:46] <@Skippeh> also also i should go asleeps
  1623. [21:47] <George_> it sounds like a good game; are you sure it's set up right to test what you need to test?
  1624. [21:47] <George_> I never really figured out what problems of Age of Strife require new systems to be tested
  1625. [21:48] <powerofmind> tech was too much work to create new ones for
  1626. [21:48] <powerofmind> econ was too granulated to function at this level
  1627. [21:48] <George_> tech doesn't need to be tested, you just implement it; econ has already been revamped afaik
  1628. [21:49] <powerofmind> Mirande was too ridiculously powerful and literally couldn't fail against an actual army of mundanes
  1629. [21:49] <George_> but we won't have powerful protagonists necessarily in this game that I can see
  1630. [21:49] <powerofmind> this is a system test
  1631. [21:50] <powerofmind> we won't necessarily have the idiot powerhouse on OUR team
  1632. [21:50] <@AcademiaNut> Yeah. Well, I'm trying to see if I am overlooking anything that might be important
  1633. [21:50] <powerofmind> that too
  1634. [21:50] <powerofmind> no plan survives contact with the enemy
  1635. [21:50] <George_> does this game test action resolution or are we moving away from the problem actions being a thing at all in AoS?
  1636. [21:50] <powerofmind> just like no RPG survives contact with a munchkin
  1637. [21:51] <George_> and do you mean in the game as a story or the game as a test or just in the game as a game?
  1638. [21:51] <George_> if that makes sense
  1639. [21:51] <@AcademiaNut> All three
  1640. [21:51] <George_> walked into that one
  1641. [21:51] <powerofmind> ah well
  1642. [21:51] <powerofmind> night
  1643. [21:51] <George_> g'night
  1644. [21:51] == powerofmind [webchat@c-73-248-145-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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