Hisec PVP round table minutes 2012-03-22

0:09	1 Psychotic Monk (Monk) [of The Skunkworks] introduces the first item on the itinerary: remote repair dock/jump timer
0:19	2 Iam Widdershins (Widders) [of Project Nemesis] talks about the importance of correctly implementing the logistics' aggression: if it is able to self-perpetuate between multiple logistics causing them to forever remain unable to dock, it would be bad. The logistics must all be able to dock or jump at the time that the last combat ship in the repair chain had its aggression expire.
1:05	3 Monk agrees
1:10	4 Monk feels that logistics are used in a conscious decision to trade the logistics for the ship it is saving
1:28	5 Widders disagrees and gives examples of logistics used in strong lowsec and nullsec gangs that are able to engage much larger numbers
1:52	6 Widders believes that the ability for these groups and their logistics to be able to survive is an important factor that gives smaller groups a way to counter the effect of greater numbers and reiterates the importance that this is done correctly
2:38	7 Alekseyev Karrde (Aleks) [of NOIR.] agrees and points out that entire wings of logistics will die on gates and stations if this is implemented incorrectly (where the timer self-perpetuates between two logistics repairing each other)
3:32	8 Widders agrees
3:38	9 Aleks believes that it is perfectly OK that logistics become unable to jump or dock mid-fight
3:50	10 Widders agrees and comments on the public perception of logistics as being invincible and unfair, and that this change is therefore important to happen
4:06	11 Widders points out that properly attended logistics on stations are in fact virtually invincible and that this is wrong
4:37	12 Darius iii (Darius) [of Brick Squad and CSM] agrees and says that many of the complaints have been rightfully regarding the use of neutral logistics on stations in hisec
4:56	13 Aleks and Monk agree that almost nobody would believe removing this invincibility would be unfair, but Aleks reiterates that it is crucial that the changes are done in a way that do not break existing legitimate tactics
5:36	14 Darius is fairly confident that CCP will get it right; Widders reiterates Aleks' statement and agrees; Monk agrees
6:15	15 Aleks cautions Darius to take nothing for granted and use all due diligence to ensure that it is done correctly

6:43	16 Monk introduces the topic of the Safeties proposed by CCP that will make it impossible to perform illegal actions
7:16	17 Monk is concerned by these changes and thinks that making it easier to NEVER become involved in combat is bad
7:32	18 Widders comments that this is a major part of hisec PVP, and feels that a majority of the PVP that occurs in hisec is outside of wars through aggression and illegal actions
8:00	19 Widders feels that the Suspect timer and the removal of the specificity of a crime against a particular group removes one of the main aspects that makes PVP in hisec different and interesting

8:11	20 Darius asks people's opinion on the Suspect timer
8:16	21 Monk believes the concept is good and that Crimewatch is buggy and needs a rework
8:39	22 Darius asks people to speak in order
8:47	23 Monk posits that nobody currently working at CCP does PVP in hisec and considers high security space as a whole to be a "kiddie pool" and "carebear island", and that this is bad because so much of the ISK in the game comes from hisec
9:28	24 Aleks agrees
(***)	25 TS5P [of The 0rphanage] abstains feeling he has not learned enough about the issue
9:36	26 Aleks likes that the simplification but dislikes the lack of distinction between "criminals" and "suspects"
9:45	27 Aleks likes the idea of neutrals getting involved in a war become shootable by everyone but thinks that it might be too far for crimes like canflipping
10:35	28 Lithalnas [of Privateers] thinks that it is purely to punish people for doing the kinds of things that hisec PVPers like to do, and overall doesn't like the direction that it takes the mechanic, preferring the way it exists today
11:20	29 ToxicOZ (Toxic) [of Double Tap] doesn't entirely understand the difference between criminals and suspects and believes that new players who thrive on canflipping PVP against limited numbers of people early on may feel turned off to being forced to be shot by everyone or no-one
12:20	30 Widders agrees that the demarcation between criminals and suspects is unclear, and believes that removing the limited nature of engagements based on minor crimes is bad for the game
12:52	31 Widders describes how being aggressed to a limited number of people is something that makes hisec PVP unique when compared to low security space where anyone at all can fire upon you, and believes that it is important to keep this element in hisec
13:40	32 Widders believes that the idea of two different stages of criminal timers against everyone is a cool idea, but that it should not be applied to every minor crime
13:55	33 Istyn [of Tactical Knightmare] says the TEARS alliance's reaction to the Suspect timer was mixed between joy that they can fight everyone and trepidation that this would lead to bad things
14:24	34 Istyn is concerned about pilots with suspect timers losing additional security status merely defending themselves from attackers, saying that this makes no sense and forces them to do things that are not fun to regain their security status
15:14	35 Istyn is especially concerned about the issues of getting attacked and trapped by characters with security statuses of over 5.0 being forced to drop to criminal levels of security status in order to escape
15:31	36 Istyn does not like that becoming involved in a war from outside allows everyone in the game to shoot you
15:49	37 Widders agrees and asks if or how a pilot with a suspect timer is even allowed to retaliate in self-defense
16:07	38 Darius assumes that it must always be possible to fire back when fired upon
16:18	39 Cannibal Kane (Kane) [independent] agrees with the consensus that gaining a global timer for stealing from cans is bad and that restricting and making it more specific is important
16:41	40 Darius also agrees as well; Darius likes the idea of the Suspect timer but does not want it to apply to minor crimes like canflipping
17:00	41 Kane points out that the Suspect timer could be used to get good fights against everyone in local in little-populated systems and kill all comers
17:24	42 Aleks does not like the idea of losing security status for self-defense while under a suspect flag, and does not know what else that security status loss might be for if it isn't for killing someone that is already aggressed
17:38	43 Istyn clarifies that the Suspect flag cannot be used to kill uninvolved targets that do not first fire upon you
18:03	44 Aleks worries about suspects being forced to defend themselves against escalating numbers of enemies and losing too much security
18:23	45 Istyn reiterates that this is CCP's declared plan
18:26	46 Aleks does not feel that it is reasonable to take a security status penalty for defending oneself against someone who willingly decided to shoot you
18:35	47 Widders points out that there is zero separation between losing security status and going GCC by current game mechanics, that this is the issue that lies behind certain current exploits, and that this must change as well or there will be serious issues such as getting CONCORDed for defending yourself while a suspect
19:29	48 Aleks ponders griefers beginning large fights by intentionally gaining suspect flags as a group to bait regular players into aggressing, and worries that this could be confusing to new players
20:06	49 Aleks believes that it is very important that the new game mechanics are well documented in a way that is accessible and easy to understand for new players
20:41	50 Widders wonders what happens when a suspect player retaliating against an attacker is faced with neutral logistics repping that attacker, and whether the suspect is then allowed to shoot the logistics as well
20:52	51 Widders posits that the system may turn out to be messier and more complicated than it is in its current form if it is to be made fair
21:05	52 Istyn heard second hand that logistics involved in kills by suspects will also lose security status for a kill
21:29	53 Widders clarifies which side the logistics he is talking about are on (the non-suspect side)
21:42	54 Istyn states that Widders' question has not been clarified at all by CCP
21:48	55 Kane believes that the security status penalties for getting kills through the suspect timer will kill hisec PVP altogether
22:17	56 Aleks does not see the purpose of the extra security status hit for attacking a character with a security of more than +5.0

22:48	57 Monk turns the discussion towards developing a list of "things that we must have, things that must not happen, and things we'd like to see"
23:11	58 Monk feels that every aspect of Crimewatch's mechanics should be documented in a single place including extant exploits that must be avoided, so that every player who desires to know the details of how combat works can find and read and learn for themselves
23:54	59 Aleks advises that this repository of knowledge should be easily searchable, easy to find and access, and that parts of the New Player Experience should focus on explaining it
24:06	60 Aleks agrees that exploits should be listed publicly for the sake of the victims (to know whether what happened was an exploit), for the sake of the intentional combatants (to help them avoid things that are technically exploits), and for the GMs (who are not known for their deep and detailed knowledge of obscure game mechanics or exploits) so that everyone is on the same page
24:38	61 Monk states that it would be preferable to document exploits not as a list of steps to execute the exploit, but rather as a symptom or result that can be identified by the victim

25:13	62 Darius asks if anyone in the conference agrees with "dec shielding" [boosting the cost of incoming wardecs through massive numbers of phoney incoming wars], wardec scraping [joining a phoney alliance and then leaving immediately, transferring the war to that alliance entirely], or invincible POS's [corporations with hisec POS towers being reinforced leaving alliance so that the war is over for them by the time the tower leaves reinforced] as viable mechanics
25:29	63 Aleks, Widders, and Monk vehemently and immediately agree that these are all terrible and must be removed as soon as possible
25:39	64 Darius agrees that they are ruining the state of warfare in hisec

26:07	65 Darius believes that a pilot should always be able to leave their corporation if they do not want to be trapped
26:56	66 Aleks believes there is no reason whatsoever for a corporation to be able to leave their alliance to save their reinforced POS in hisec
27:30	67 Toxic suggests penalties for players leaving corporations at war: staying in an NPC corporation for the duration of the war without being allowed to join a player corp
28:03	68 Kane suggests that a simple 24 hour timer will be enough of a penalty for players abandoning their corporation during a war
28:15	69 Widders believes that it is important to restrict player movement in corporations that are locked in war to prevent them from breaking up to avoid the war, but states he has not had many experiences with alliances dissolving to avoid a particular war
28:45	70 Aleks interrupts that he has had a lot of experiences of alliances dissolving temporarily to avoid wars
29:00	71 Widders continues that it is important to be able to leave a corporation without being entirely trapped, yet still have meaningful consequences for abandoning a corporation that is at war
29:32	72 Aleks believes that it is legitimate for a player to leave a corporation because he is having difficulty with his own corp members, but that the mechanics should not countenance players who merely wish to escape the consequences of a war because it is interrupting their gameplay
29:55	73 Aleks mentions in passing that he would like war fees to be pegged to a floating standard similarly to insurance values
30:19	74 Darius points out that you cannot discern intention through game mechanics alone
30:28	75 Aleks reiterates that a pilot leaving a corporation they consciously joined to escape the consequences of this choice is not legitimate
30:45	76 Darius believes that a 24 hour timer during which the character is still at war with their original aggressors would perhaps be enough
30:55	77 Darius reiterates the critical importance of addressing the ease with which anyone who wants can evade war declarations at will, affecting the very perception of the game at large
31:14	78 Aleks submits to the record that there is a record low number of mercenary corporations currently operating in hisec, down to a literal handful from the twenties since these kinds of exploits were popularized and legitimized, calling it "the canary in the coalmine"
31:46	79 Lithalnas notes that Privateers has moved to only declaring war on alliances to avoid dealing with corporations scraping wardecs
31:58	80 Lithalnas believes this could be fixed by allowing wars to be continued against corporations leaving their alliance, and that if possible there should be a mechanic that allows the corporation to capitulate to the aggressor with a surrender fee of their own in exchange for an immediate end to the war, if they so desire (or if both the aggressor and the leaving corporation agree)
32:25	81 Monk agrees completely
32:28	82 Toxic agrees completely
32:38	83 Aleks agrees and adds that any cost that is levied must go to the attacker
32:43	84 Toxic and Lithalnas agree
32:46	85 Widders agrees, and comments that penalties should either be paid directly to the attacker or must be based on waiting for timers to finish, because if the money goes to an ISK sink then there are groups who will be able to pay their way out of every war
32:59	86 Aleks agrees and adds that there should be consequences for attackers when the war goes badly
33:19	87 Widders points out that under current mechanics when the defender makes a war mutual it is still completely up to the original attacker to withdraw the war whenever they please, and that this seems wrong and the attacker should always be in trouble if things go badly
33:35	88 Monk agrees
33:37	89 Istyn agrees, mentioning that he originally believed this was the way wars worked already
33:44	90 Widders relates the same story of his own
33:58	91 Aleks agrees that this is messed up
34:01	92 Istyn suggests that if CCP does not want the war to transfer immediately to the corporation that is leaving, they could provide a way for the attacking corp to action a war against them immediately rather than needing to wait 72 hours for the war to end, a vote to go through, and the war to go live again (making mention of the Invincible POS's exploit)
34:30	93 Aleks believes the easiest way would be to make a war that is declared effectively be against every member of an alliance, adding on wars against corporations that join
34:49	94 Widders mentions that he likes the idea of declaring war on a specific corporation in an alliance, then is forced to clarify that this should not change the fact that they are at war with the entire alliance: only that they are singled out such that if they leave the alliance the war continues regardless
35:33	95 Aleks thinks that this should always apply to all the corporations in the alliance anyway
35:37	96 Widders agrees that this would work
35:36	97 Darius agrees that the option to continue wars against any corporations that have left an alliance would solve the problem wholesale
36:00	98 Widders agrees and segues into a desire for a better surrender mechanic
36:24	99 Aleks suggests combining these two by giving corporations leaving an alliance the opportunity to surrender almost immediately to the attacker
36:49	100 Widders believes that there should be an offer/counter-offer system that allows these wars to be ended immediately after a negotiation succeeds
37:13	101 Aleks suggests the ability to negotiate an instantaneous surrender to the attacker before they have actually left the alliance
37:35	102 Toxic suggests a limitation to the amount of surrender fees to protect newer players, based on the original war fee
38:00	103 Istyn points out that the potential losses of the defender could easily be far, far higher than this number
38:08	104 Darius also disagrees, saying that letting the defender weasel out of the war by merely refunding the original cost would be pointless and that this would be pointless
38:19	105 Lithalnas agrees with Darius
38:20	106 Istyn points out that the mere existence of a usable surrender mechanic would already be much friendlier to new players than the current system, which allows corporations to maintain constant wars for a ridiculously long time
38:34	107 Toxic capitulates, cautioning that there must be a strong argument for leaving the war in the control of the attacker if this is brought to CCP
39:05	108 Aleks demonstrates a very simple negotiation, pointing out that ransoms and surrender fees must always be negotiated according to the means of the ransomed anyway
39:53	109 Aleks suggests that there be a timer that prevents the attacker from immediately re-declaring war on the defender upon their surrender
40:00	110 Lithalnas agrees
40:26	111 Widders points out that this can be circumvented by owning or allying multiple corporations and tag-teaming the defending corporation as they pay surrender fees while still maintaining a permanent or nearly-permanent war
40:41	112 Aleks believes that the armistice mechanic would still be beneficial in that it would at least encourage people to think in that way
40:49	113 Monk agrees and states he believes joining corporations should clearly be a conscious decision made under the knowledge that there are going to be adversaries and wars at some point

40:59	114 Monk states that on the topic of corp hopping he would be more than willing to see the ability to corp hop go away as long as the issues with dec scraping and war avoidance are addressed
41:33	115 Widders mentions that corp hopping is also used extensively on the part of attackers
41:50	116 Monk states that his corporation has also used corp hopping extensively and feels that if it must be used to allow him to shoot the targets he paid to shoot then it has to be done
42:22	117 Monk talks of dropping corp after gaining partial aggression with war targets and coming back out of the station to fight only those select enemies that aggressed while they were still in the corporation
42:36	118 Widders thinks this is terrible
42:36	119 Aleks agrees and says that all sorts of things like this need to be killed because it is broken and it drives inexperienced pilots away from the war mechanic
42:52	120 Aleks asks if it would be acceptable for the attacker in a war to be unable to recruit for the duration of the war
43:01	121 Widders says yes
43:03	122 Monk says yes
43:06	123 Toxic says yes
43:05	124 Aleks mentions that this would potentially be a problem for groups following the "privateer model", with back-to-back sets of wars with no breaks in between, as it makes it extremely difficult to recruit at any time
43:08	125 Lithalnas agrees that this would be hard to deal with
43:17	126 Widders suggests that rather than prohibiting recruitment, that a 24 hour delay to join the attacking corporation would be preferable
43:38	127 Aleks suggests a 48 hour delay to join [attackers]and a 48 hour delay to leave [defenders]
43:43	128 Monk thinks this is a solid idea
43:43	129 Lithalnas agrees
43:45	130 Widders suggests that the delay for leaving should be longer, but that the defender should not have a penalty for recruiting
44:02	131 Lithalnas suggests that the pilot who leaves the corporation maintain an aggression against their former war targets for an amount of time, rather than taking a certain amount of time to leave
44:11	132 Aleks clarifies that this would bring war aggression down to the individual level
44:16	133 Widders points out that this could become too complicated, and relates a time when two alliances he was at war with collapsed at once, creating a list of hundreds of withdrawing wars, saying that if this were applied to individual pilots it could be far too much
44:33	134 Lithalnas ponders if a pilot has serious issues with the members of their corporation, how would they be able to escape and yet still be vulnerable to their former war targets
45:03	135 Aleks points out that if the defending corporation finds a character that is spying for the enemy corporation, they won't be able to boot it out immediately and the spy will be able to harrass them unchecked during this time
45:29	136 Widders suggests a system where when a pilot leaves a corporation that is at war, they are removed from corp chat and mails and roles and can no longer be shot by the corporation's members, yet they still appear to be in the corporation but with a "withdrawing" flag visible to everyone
45:54	137 Toxic likes this
45:55	138 Widders elaborates that the pilot should be able to leave the corporation immediately or be expelled with immediate effect, but that other than their corporation shown in space and their aggression with war targets they would not be a member of the corporation for all other intents and purposes until three days had passed and they completed their withdrawal
46:10	139 Aleks and Monk like this a lot
46:22	140 Istyn comments that corp hopping being used by aggressors seems to be a response to the defenders' ability to avoid wars through dec scraping, and that while it is a nasty mechanic that should be gotten rid of it can only happen after dec shielding is removed; he also speaks of a friend of his who was forced to use corp hopping extensively to overcome the invincible POS mechanic
47:18	141 Widders relates that his group was using corp hopping extensively before the advent of legitimized dec scraping because it was incredibly common for the defenders to all leave corporation without consequence if they thought there was a chance they'd be inconvenienced
48:02	142 Aleks comments that mutual wars count towards the cost of declaring war on another entity and that this is screwed up
48:15	143 Monk states that this is not the case and relates that dec shields are maintained by making the dec shield wars mutual only when the bill need to be paid
48:38	144 Aleks and Monk agree that this is sneaky and bad
48:54	145 Widders brings up that withdrawing wars, even those outside the control of the attacker, still count towadrds the maximum of 3 for an attacking corporation but not for an alliance
49:31	146 Aleks suggests that war declarations be disconnected from voting and wars
49:40	147 Monk vehemently agrees and relates that he has used tiny alliances solely for the purpose of gaining immediacy despite the extra costs involved
50:24	148 Aleks believes that an improved surrender mechanic would alleviate this issue since corporations leaving the alliance would be doing so on an agreed basis
50:40	149 Istyn suggests that corporations could have their maximum war count could be increased
51:00	150 Widders believes that it would be fine for the limit of 3 remained as long as the corporations were able to actually have 3 real wars rather than being restricted by withdrawing wars

51:05	151 Darius now asks that every member go one at a time and make any final notes they have on the issues and mention anything new they have to bring up

51:30	152 TS5P agrees with almost everything that has been discussed so far and does not have anything extra to add

52:00	153 Aleks wishes to push for a flat war fee pegged to a floating standard the same way that insurance is, and does not like the idea of differing numbers of wars costing different amounts because math is hard
52:39	154 Aleks desires a better surrender mechanic
52:42	155 Aleks wants invincible POS's, invincible neutral logistics, dec scraping, and other exploits to all be removed entirely
52:52	156 Aleks wants the entirety of the process of corporations, wars, and aggression to be documented by CCP where people can read it and included in the new player experience

53:18	157 Lithalnas is concerned with the direction CCP is taking with hisec in general and believes that CCP is treating hisec as "safe space" and babying new players who don't want to become involved in PVP
53:45	158 Lithalnas has noticed in the last few years his targets have been less and less willing to take any kind of risk whatsoever, despite being wealthier
54:09	159 Monk agrees

54:14	160 Toxic states that his biggest issue are the problems with corp hopping, both on the side of the aggressor and the defender or whether it is corps or players leaving; he believes that if these are solved then most of the problems with reduced amounts of PVP in empire will be solved
54:35	161 Toxic believes that neutral logistics need to be addressed as well

55:20	162 Widders is concerned with CCP's habits of not announcing stealth nerfs and exploit fixes such as the ones to orcas
55:44	163 Widders recalls the changes CCP made that changed the levels of safety of incursion runners (by shutting off remote reps automatically) had an extremely harmful effect on the state of hisec PVP
56:08	164 Widders relates an engagement he FC'd (that was altogether about 30 vs. 90 including neutrals) where the remote reps were continually turning off on every new primary, with no setting to prevent it and despite the fact that the logistics were already flagged to every target on the field
56:48	165 Darius and Widders agree that this is a hugely important issue and was accidentally skipped over
56:54	166 Darius suggests that there should at least be a box that you can click to confirm that you do not want your remote reps to disable on new aggressions
57:08	167 Monk strongly agrees that this is very important
57:08	168 Toxic comments that this is a problem most of the people present have probably experienced and reiterates that it very much needs to be fixed
57:13	169 Widders comments that if it were not for this bug, the fleet he was in would have been able to hold the field
57:26	170 Darius believes that CCP's willingness to completely break the usage of logistics in large engagements in hisec to allow people to work with complete strangers in total safety is telling of CCP's approach
57:58	171 Widders elaborates that it does not matter whether the logistics are in corporation or are neutral, this bug will manifest in either situation
58:21	172 Darius agrees and calls the situation a "nightmare scenario" and promises to bring this issue to CCP
58:30	173 Widders desires that CCP would make it more clear to new players that hisec is not a truly safe place

58:33	174 Widders brings up ECM drones and briefly mentions the amount of contention that appears on the fora every time any issue related to ECM is brought up
58:53	175 Widders mentions a previous thread he started discussing the relative strength of ECM drones being out of line with other types of Ewar drones
(***)	176 Widders segues into the relative difficulty of dealing with ECM drones in hisec due to the total impossibility of using smart bombs in hisec
59:13	177 Monk agrees that this is an issue
(***)	178 Widders laments the common usage and high effectiveness of ECM drones
59:39	179 Darius points out that the strength of ECM drones is not as such a hisec issue
59:43	180 Aleks briefly suggests the possibility of making ECM drones only break lock like an ECM burst rather than actually jamming

60:09	181 Istyn agrees with the things that Lithalnas and Widders have said
60:21	182 Istyn speaks for Tear Extraction and Reclamation in echoing their frustration at CCP's continued track record of terrible communication regarding unannounced stealth nerfs and the recent bugged ability to kick corp members while they were online and in space, as well as their dislike of the Suspect flag
61:08	183 Istyn also brings up a particular member's dislike of the recent change that prohibits a criminal-flagged pilot from boarding a ship in space in hisec to clear CONCORD away from belts, but comments that this seemed like an exploit
61:29	184 Widders agree that this change seems fine and is unlikely to be reversed
61:31	185 Istyn reiterates the frustration with CCP's poor communication regarding the recent bug regarding the inability to regain security status by killing NPCs unless you got the final blow
61:44	186 Istyn mentions the strangeness of ship losses while criminally flagged in hisec not receiving insurance while self-destructs still do

62:10	187 Kane agrees with what has been said so far
62:21	188 Kane wants to reiterate that he very much desires corporate votes to be divorced from the voting and share system
62:45	189 Aleks agrees and clarifies
(***)	190 Monk agrees

(***)	191 Darius asks for a thread to be created to bring the issues discussed to CCP's attention
(***)	192 Monk agrees to create the thread and forward it to all the members of the discussion

62:48	193 Istyn brings up frustrations with the inability to disable CONCORD warnings in hisec
63:10	194 Monk mentions that that this is something CCP appears to be already developing

63:35	195 Monk mentions the possibility to motivate a corporation to maintain itself as an entity by implementing an anchorable structure that provides bonuses usable in hisec
64:33	196 Aleks points out that tens of thousands of anchorable structures anchored throughout hisec could be highly detrimental to server performance
64:45	197 Monk cedes the point
64:48	198 Aleks suggests an alternative of an escalating tax for remaining in NPC corps for long periods of time, up to 100%

65:02	199 Darius bids farewell and thanks the members present for coming and avoiding drama and excessive egotism, wrapping up the meeting