Charizard Council Discussion

01[15:02] <@NatGeo> i say we do charizard to get it over with
[15:02] <+Limi> !!!!"!"§°!§!°"§!"^13^1"
15[15:02] * Steamroll sets mode: +v Luck
01[15:02] <@NatGeo> limi....
[15:02] <+Limi> i never see zard
[15:02] <+Luck> o
[15:02] <+Limi> i never use zard
[15:02] <+Luck> a lot of power
[15:02] <+Limi> so i can't say anything
[15:02] <+cbb> I see it all the time
[15:02] <@Steamroll> seen used
[15:02] <+Luck> what you see is irrelevant
[15:02] <+cbb> lol
[15:02] <@Steamroll> eh
[15:02] <@DTC> ok then don't
[15:02] <+Luck> usages are relevant
[15:02] <@DTC> talk about it
[15:02] <+Luck> anyway
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> ok
[15:03] <+Luck> are we starting with zard? :x
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> personally i don't find it broken
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> yes we are
[15:03] <+Limi> i shan't, dtc
[15:03] <+Luck> ok
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> i don't find it broken because:
[15:03] <@DTC> I find sun Charizard broken
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> 1) it's quad sr weak and easy to revenge kill
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> (ps this is the reason we didn't ban gorebyss)
[15:03] <+Keiran> Sun is really uncommon though
[15:03] <@DTC> Charizard isn't that easy to revenge kill
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> 2) opposing rain teams can still do a number
[15:03] <@DTC> Not everyone runs offense
[15:03] <+Limi> byss is easy to revenge kill!?
[15:03] <+Luck> ????
[15:03] <@DTC> And Gorebyss couldn't nuke stuff either
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> most people should run a scarfer anyways
[15:04] <+cbb> Specs Zard hits really really hard, 2hko'ing nearly everything, Scarf is faster than a lot of common scarfers and can easily demolish weakened teams
[15:04] <+Limi> every team is forced to carry a fucking scarfer out of a rather limited pool
[15:04] <+cbb> if anything I'd want zard banned or the specs set though
[15:04] <+cbb> *for
[15:04] <+Keiran> Scarfers are great in general anyway
01[15:04] <@NatGeo> if we're only banning it for one set i don't see why we ban it in the first place
[15:04] <+Luck> yeah Specs
[15:04] <+Luck> lol natgeo
[15:04] <@DTC> I don't think Zard is that bad outside of the sun
[15:04] <+Luck> you ban a pokemon because it's broken
[15:04] <@Steamroll> Natgeo, exca was banned for one set
[15:04] <+Luck> if one set is the broken one
[15:04] <+Luck> you ban the pokemon
[15:04] <+Ginku> if one set is broken then the pokemon is quite obviously broken too
[15:04] <@Steamroll> so was P-Z
[15:04] <+Ginku> ???
[15:04] <%Raseri> scarfzard is a great zard
01[15:04] <@NatGeo> steamroll excadrill really only HAD one viable set.....
[15:04] <@DTC> so let's talk Charizard outside of the sun
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> ok
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> so assuming that
[15:05] <+Luck> exca has 2 sets lol
[15:05] <@Steamroll> that's the point natgeo xD
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> which pokemon can tank its hits and ko it?
[15:05] <+Luck> spinner and LO sd
[15:05] <+Luck> but this is not the place to talk about it
[15:05] <+cbb> in sun its a pretty clear case imo but sun can't really be assumed at all times so we're leaving that out of here for now right??
[15:05] <+Luck> not many
[15:05] <@Steamroll> natgeo shuckle can
[15:05] <+Djangoo> Specs zard still hits really really hard outside sun
[15:05] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:05] <+Luck> if talking about zard
[15:05] <+cbb> unless the particular zard runs sunny day
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> yes cbb
[15:05] <@DTC> Why not use Magmortar outside of the sun?
[15:05] <+cbb> okay
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> yeah exactly
[15:05] <@DTC> Charizard gets STAB flying and more Speed
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> @ dtc
[15:05] <+Luck> zard is faster
[15:05] <+cbb> because base 100 is actually HUGE compared to base 83
[15:05] <+Luck> and has a 2nd stab
[15:05] <+Luck> that is a lot more useful
[15:05] <+cbb> like it outspeeds many common threats
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> charizard is very fast
[15:06] <+Luck> I mean, early game you spam air slash usually with zard
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> but there are some pokemon that can deal with it
[15:06] <@DTC> however, it's weak  4x weak to SR, has less Special Attack, has no Thunderbolt, and can't switch into sleeping moves
[15:06] <+cbb> jynx, bambi, sawk
[15:06] <+cbb> who magmortar fails to outspeed
[15:06] <+cbb> they both have their obvious merits of course
[15:06] <@DTC> Sawk is usually Adamant or scarfed
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> yea you can outspeed all of them if scarfed
[15:06] <+Limi> tbolt isn't that big
[15:06] <+cbb> Jolly CB is better than adamant js
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> assuming no sun
[15:06] <+cbb> if only for magmortar
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> tbolt is big
[15:06] <@DTC> true, but that 4x weakness to sr is huge
[15:06] <@Steamroll> zard is the 23rd fastest mon
[15:06] <@Steamroll> tied for*
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> 23rd!
[15:06] <@DTC> Magmortar isn't that common in this meta for whatever reason
[15:06] <@Steamroll> in NU
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> yeah
[15:06] <+Limi> what does it hit?
[15:06] <+Djangoo> eh, zard only needs to switch in once to wreck face
[15:06] <@DTC> it's kind of sad
[15:07] <+Limi> (noob question <_<)
[15:07] <+cbb> I don't think TBolt is _that_ big considering that its only for mantine
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> limi it hits most water-types
[15:07] <@Steamroll> because zard does it "better"
[15:07] <+cbb> air slash 2hkos all waters doesnt it?
[15:07] <+Limi> mantine lol
[15:07] <+cbb> assuming specs
[15:07] <@Steamroll> lol mantine
[15:07] <+Keiran> I honestly prefer Magmortar to 'zard
[15:07] <+Luck> yes
[15:07] <+Limi> there are no waters
[15:07] <+Limi> quag
[15:07] <+cbb> well
[15:07] <+Limi> alomomola
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> alomomola?
[15:07] <+Limi> and that's it
[15:07] <+cbb> samurott
[15:07] <+cbb> quag
[15:07] <+cbb> all get destroyed by sair slash anyway
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> yeah those
[15:07] <+cbb> so tbolt is kind of a moot point imo
[15:07] <@DTC> I like how Magmortar can just spam Fire Blast. Even resists can't take the Fire Blast's well
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> well taht's the same thign with zard
[15:07] <@DTC> Charizard's Fire Blasts are weaker
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> except faser
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> *faster
[15:07] <@DTC> And he has less chances to spam it
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> because of its hazard weakness
[15:08] <+Djangoo> show me something that mamortar 2hkos that zard won't
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> assuming no sun?
[15:08] <@DTC> k, hold on
[15:08] <+Djangoo> well zards most dangerous in sun
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> yeah
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> for now
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> we're assuming
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> no sun
[15:08] <+Djangoo> k
[15:08] <+cbb> by the way
[15:08] <+Keiran> Sun's a really inconsistent play style
05[15:08] * NatGeo is now known as NatCounciling
[15:08] <+Luck> I fail to see how couldn't Charizard be broken. To start it off, it has a very good stats distribution (base 100 speed and 109 attack), it has a great typing offensively that gives him a "brute force" stab that it's already difficult to wall (Fire Blast) + another STAB you can spam easily early game with no immunities, and the resistors fears Fblast
01[15:08] <@NatCounciling> yeah exactly keiran
[15:09] <+cbb> timid magmortar reaches 283 speed and 349 satk while modest charizard reaches 299 and 348
[15:09] <+Djangoo> lol essays
[15:09] <+cbb> they're about equal but that speed helps against stuff like sawk
[15:09] <+cbb> ENORMOUSLY
[15:09] <+Luck> bs limit
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> lol luck
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> anyways i guess you could say how zard is broken but
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> sr is still really common
[15:09] <+Luck> yeah
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> it can't switch in more than twice most of the time
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> which really hurts it
[15:10] <+Djangoo> it only needs to get in twice though
[15:10] <+cbb> yeah I see the problem
[15:10] <+Luck> and Zard OHKOs all the stealth rockers bar Sturdy abusers
[15:10] <+cbb> spinning isn't easy in NU by any means
[15:10] <+Luck> ???
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> luck most sr is set up early
[15:10] <+Limi> kecleon!
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:10] <+Limi> SpD miltank!
[15:10] <+Luck> lead with zard
[15:10] <+cbb> but the same applies for zards side
[15:10] <+Luck> problem solved
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> limi miltank is 2KOed
[15:10] <@DTC> Charizard doesn't OHKO the most common Regirock varient
[15:10] <+Luck> there's wifi clause
[15:10] <+cbb> they'll have SR up as well
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> luck they still get it up
[15:10] <+cbb> which means it can come in twice
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> and besides
[15:10] <+Limi> is it
[15:10] <+cbb> and kill two pokes
[15:10] <+cbb> after which is has done its job
[15:10] <+cbb> pretty much
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> most sr setters
[15:10] <+Limi> ehh i'm out
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> w/ sturdy
09[15:10] * +Limi (just@be.different.be.daring.be.crazy) has left #nucouncil
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> beat zard
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> 1v1
[15:10] <@DTC> 68.13 - 80.76%
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> mostly golem anyways
[15:10] <+Luck> that's why I wrote "bar sturdy abuse"
[15:10] <@DTC> and we all know how fblast sucks dick
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> !
[15:11] <+Luck> lolk
[15:11] <+Luck> fire blast on specszard is amazing
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> ok anyways
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> sr is really common and its not that hard to keep up
[15:11] <+Luck> the speed is what sets it apart from other strong attackers such as Emboar
[15:11] <@DTC> nah I mean focus blast
[15:12] <+Keiran> The only decent spinner is Cryo
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> hence all you really need is sr + faster mon / sucker punch
[15:12] <+Luck> also there are other zard sets
[15:12] <@DTC> not fire blast, although that misses a lot too
[15:12] <+Djangoo> the thing is the charizard user WILL have a way to keep sr away
[15:12] <@DTC> I like life orb charizard the best
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc
[15:12] <+Djangoo> marowak or a spinner
[15:12] <+Luck> yeah nat
[15:12] <@DTC> with roost
[15:12] <+Luck> those are 2 pokes in your team
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> and the thing is
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> most sun teams
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> don't carry a spinner
[15:12] <+Luck> just for zard
[15:12] <@DTC> it isn't so reliant on sr users
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> at elast in my experience
[15:12] <@DTC> err
[15:12] <@DTC> rapid spinning
[15:12] <@DTC> and keeping sr away
[15:12] <+Luck> LO roost zard
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> and even on non weather teams w/ charizard
[15:12] <+Luck> is another great set
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> rapid spin is tough to pull off
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> yeah lo roost is a cool set
[15:12] <@DTC> I don't like that specs you usually only have 1-2 shots
[15:13] <+Keiran> I've only used Scarf
[15:13] <+cbb> well specs will mostly get two kills
[15:13] <@DTC> Although it can take down a Pokemon or two with good prediction -- possibly even more
[15:13] <+cbb> if you do it right
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> scarf doesn't get quite as many KO's
[15:13] <+cbb> even with SR
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> but its hella fast
[15:13] <+cbb> at which point it has done tis job
[15:13] <+cbb> *its
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:13] <+Keiran> I use it because it outspeeds everything, sans like scarfccino
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> which is good!
[15:13] <@Steamroll> the thing I didn't like about zard
[15:13] <@Steamroll> was that if you played it right
[15:13] <@DTC> wow, wartortle counters non-sun zard
[15:13] <@Steamroll> nothing could stand to it
[15:14] <@DTC> meh it sucks
[15:14] <+Keiran> DTC
[15:14] <+Luck> wartortle excellent poke
[15:14] <@Steamroll> fuck wartortle @_@
[15:14] <+cbb> wartortle the best
[15:14] <+Keiran> its scald does 45%
[15:14] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> steamroll
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> any mon played right
[15:14] <+Keiran> if charizard has roost
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> is good
[15:14] <+Keiran> 'zard wins
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> that can be applied to anything
[15:14] <+Luck> zard wins vs anything
[15:14] <@Steamroll> Nat I mean with rocks up
[15:14] <@DTC> usually roost zard uses lo
[15:14] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> yea
[15:14] <@DTC> also wartortle carries toxic
[15:14] <@Steamroll> I didn't like using roost on zard tbh
[15:14] <+Luck> yeah
[15:14] <@DTC> because it can't do much otherwise
[15:14] <+Luck> and when zard is in Blaze range
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> yeah steamroll
[15:14] <+Luck> wartortle dies
[15:14] <@Steamroll> once you switched it in
[15:14] <+Luck> amazing gameplan
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> i just find it way too frail
[15:15] <+Luck> you'll have to toxic
[15:15] <+Luck> then rest stall
[15:15] <@Steamroll> it was pretty much dead at the end
[15:15] <+Luck> good way to beat zard
[15:15] <@Steamroll> and the amount of damage you did
[15:15] <@Steamroll> really gave you an upper hand
01[15:15] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:15] <+cbb> the fact that you even have to use wartortle to beat zard is
[15:15] <+cbb> kind of stupid in my opinion
[15:15] <@Steamroll> sad///
[15:15] <+Djangoo> yeah
[15:15] <@DTC> Charizard's air slash to Wartortle: 28.26 - 33.54%
[15:15] <@DTC> nah that's only one check
[15:15] <+cbb> even as a spinner its pretty bad
[15:15] <@Steamroll> lol
[15:15] <+Djangoo> considering wartortle as a legit mon is just wrong
[15:15] <@DTC> there isn't much more than that, unfortunately
[15:15] <@Steamroll> less than
[15:15] <@Steamroll> 1% chance
[15:15] <@Steamroll> to 3hko
[15:15] <@Steamroll> THAT is sad
[15:15] <+cbb> flinch
[15:15] <+cbb> gg
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> its a decent mon
[15:16] <+Keiran> lol
[15:16] <@DTC> dragonair, grumpig, quagsire, flareon
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> i mean if you have to use it as a counter to non sun charizard
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> so be it
[15:16] <@Steamroll> flareon is a good special check
[15:16] <+cbb> doesn't flareon die to specs
[15:16] <@Steamroll> at least HP rock 2hkos
[15:16] <+Luck> no
[15:16] <+Djangoo> needs sun to beat flareon
[15:16] <@Steamroll> no it doesn't
[15:16] <+Luck> but flareon can't do shit back
[15:16] <+Luck> oh
[15:16] <+cbb> oh
[15:16] <+Luck> hp rock flareon
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> or just
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> wish + protect
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> stalling
[15:16] <@DTC> Charizard's Air Slash to Flareon: 32.63 - 38.92%
[15:16] <+Luck> amazing set
[15:16] <+cbb> k
[15:16] <@DTC> yeah flareon needs toxic or hp rock to bet it lol
[15:16] <+Luck> air slash has 30% to flinch
[15:16] <+Luck> js
[15:16] <+Djangoo> I actually ran hp rock flareon
[15:16] <+cbb> yeah i wasn't sure about that one
[15:16] <+Keiran> specs in sun is virtually non-existent
[15:16] <+Djangoo> lol
[15:16] <@Steamroll> luck I used it to good success
[15:16] <@DTC> beat*
[15:16] <@DTC> which is kind of sads
[15:16] <@DTC> sad*
[15:16] <@Steamroll> when people didn't switch zard out
[15:16] <@Steamroll> xD
[15:17] <+cbb> actually it needs hp rock
[15:17] <+cbb> to beat LO roost
[15:17] <@Steamroll> to beat any zard tbh
[15:17] <+cbb> otherwise you'll just get stalled out of wishtect
[15:17] <+Luck> subtoxic zard, anyone???
[15:17] <+Djangoo> lol sub toxic zard
[15:17] <@DTC> I tried sub roost toxic
[15:17] <@Steamroll> rather would subSD
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> we're deciding tiering not theorymoning -_-
[15:17] <@DTC> not very good lol
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> sub sd isn't that good haha
[15:17] <@Steamroll> eh
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> most physical sets don't work from my experiaence
[15:17] <@DTC> http://www.honko2.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> dragon dance =[
[15:17] <+cbb> yeah the physical sets are kind of underwhelming
[15:18] <+cbb> for me
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> even with that attack
[15:18] <+cbb> the special sets are the real threats
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> specs mostly!
[15:18] <+Luck> they are cool because they get some kills here and there but yeah, special sets (mainly specs and LO roost) are the most threatening ones
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> which is really weak to sr....
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> which brings me back to my point!
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> a lot of offensive mons / sr check zard nicely
[15:18] <+Luck> sunny day is a threat but not that used
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> yeah luck
[15:18] <+Djangoo> on the point of sr
[15:19] <+Luck> I mean, of course you should account it, but heh
[15:19] <+Djangoo> the charizard user is going to have some sort of support to get rid of / prevent sr
[15:19] <+Luck> natu
[15:19] <+Djangoo> its going to go up sometimes, but not every match
[15:19] <@DTC> there aren't many good sr users
[15:19] <@Steamroll> natu natu!
[15:19] <@DTC> err
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> golem maybe?
[15:19] <@DTC> rapid spin
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc i was about to say haha
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> anyways:
[15:19] <+Djangoo> you don't need spin
[15:19] <+Luck> delibird
[15:19] <+Djangoo> something like marowak
[15:19] <@Steamroll> prankster taunters!
[15:19] <+Djangoo> or CB Rampardos
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> rapid spin isn't too very common in nu atm
[15:19] <@Steamroll> MURKROW :D
[15:19] <+cbb> they all fail
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> so charizard isn't getting that support
[15:19] <+cbb> against regirock
[15:19] <+cbb> just saying
[15:19] <@DTC> lol murkrow sucks
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> and on sun
[15:19] <@DTC> you taunt the rock-type and it kills youy
[15:19] <@DTC> you*
[15:20] <@Steamroll> lol
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> you have no rapid spinners whatsoever p much
[15:20] <+Luck> well the point is
[15:20] <+Luck> if they see zard in your team
[15:20] <+cbb> even if you do
[15:20] <@Steamroll> FS taunt liepard
[15:20] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:20] <+Luck> they'll try to get SR up
[15:20] <+Luck> asap
[15:20] <+Luck> also
[15:20] <@Steamroll> ^
[15:20] <+Luck> use taunt bibarel
[15:20] <+Luck> problem solved
[15:20] <+cbb> misdreavus is common and cockblocks every spinner except wartortle and SD lum berry armaldo
[15:20] <+Djangoo> it may not be common in NU but the charizard teams will have it
[15:20] <@Steamroll> they lead with the setter tbh
[15:20] <@Steamroll> if you run zard
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> yeah
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> getting sr up
[15:20] <+Djangoo> so you can lead with something that stops the setter
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> is the main thing
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> and the most common sr setters are golem and armaldo in my experience
[15:20] <@Steamroll> djangoo that's what I usually do :P
[15:21] <+Luck> so to check zard I'd need a: SR b: a spin blocker OR hope my opp isn't supporting zard?
[15:21] <+cbb> I see regirock a lot
[15:21] <@DTC> also guys, keep in mind this is just a preliminary council meeting; there won't be any votes until after the 3rd council meeting
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> ye
[15:21] <+cbb> nothing but taunt really stops regirock
[15:21] <+cbb> from getting up SR
[15:21] <+Luck> taunt Sawk
[15:21] <@Steamroll> thunder wave cbb
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> luck is taunt sawk common?
[15:21] <@Steamroll> amphy is great for it
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> no! :P
[15:21] <+cbb> yeah well
[15:21] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:21] <+Luck> no
[15:21] <+cbb> so zard is pretty much
[15:21] <+cbb> split opinions?
[15:22] <+Djangoo> well considering Regirock is probably going to be their zard check
[15:22] <+Luck> yeah looks like
[15:22] <+Djangoo> you can just cripple it as it sets up sr
[15:22] <+Keiran> quick poll?
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> altaria is probably the best zard check
[15:22] <+Djangoo> and zard then rapes anyway
[15:22] <+Luck> regirock loves switching into focus blast
[15:22] <+Luck> you guys forget that
[15:22] <+Luck> after 2 sr switch ins
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> since a) it can switch in on fire blast and anything besides hp ice
[15:22] <+Luck> you activate blaze
[15:22] <@DTC> I'm more threatened by LO Charizard
[15:22] <+cbb> BLAZE
[15:22] <@DTC> Because it can Roost off damage and switch attacks
[15:22] <+Luck> blaze zard outright blasts everything bar flareon
[15:22] <+Luck> and other flash firers
[15:22] <+Djangoo> yeah if you can get it in blaze range something dies
[15:22] <+cbb> but yeah I think both are amazing sets
[15:22] <@DTC> Rapidash is pretty common
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> the most common set is solar power....
01[15:23] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:23] <@Steamroll> if you get in blaze range
[15:23] <+Luck> yeah and rapidas can't switch into air slash
[15:23] <@DTC> That's in the sun natgeo
[15:23] <@Steamroll> carry something that walls fire moves
[15:23] <+Djangoo> I wouldn't run solar power outside sun
[15:23] <+Luck> also if you don't run sun
[15:23] <+Luck> there's no point in using solar power
01[15:23] <@NatCounciling> oh ok dtc
[15:23] <+Luck> unless you are like, desperate to revenge kill sunny day sweepers with scarfzard
[15:23] <@DTC> yeah rapidash is a bit risky if sr is up
[15:23] <@DTC> it takes like 70% minimum from specs air slash
[15:23] <+Luck> how much does dash take
[15:23] <+Luck> oh
[15:23] <@DTC> 71.95 - 84.5%
[15:23] <+Luck> yeah see
[15:24] <+Luck> not a good switch in
[15:24] <+cbb> 252SpAtk Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard (Neutral) Air Slash vs 4HP/0SpDef Flash Fire Rapidash (Neutral): 71% - 84% (195 - 231 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:24] <+cbb> bs
[15:24] <+cbb> dtc ninja
[15:24] <@Steamroll> especially if you can't get rid of rocks
[15:24] <@DTC> but it's not like charizard will have perfect prediction every time
[15:24] <@Steamroll> ...
[15:24] <+Luck> yeah granted
[15:24] <+Luck> but air slash is the move you spam
[15:24] <+Luck> early game
[15:24] <+Luck> usually
[15:24] <+Djangoo> neither side will have perfect prediction
[15:24] <%Raseri> ok so where are we in the discussion>
[15:24] <%Raseri> i got dragged into the PO WCOP
01[15:24] <@NatCounciling> i think we're still where we started :P
[15:24] <+Djangoo> lol
[15:24] <+Luck> charizard
[15:24] <@DTC> we're discussing our thoughts on charz
[15:24] <+Luck> lol
01[15:24] <@NatCounciling> i.e. split!
[15:24] <@DTC> charizard*
[15:25] <+Luck> yeah what nat said
[15:25] <+cbb> they're more likely to switch rapidash into it than something that can take air slash
[15:25] <+cbb> such as a steel type or whatever
[15:25] <+cbb> lol
[15:25] <+Luck> yeah
[15:25] <+Luck> the problem with zard is that what walls air slash
[15:25] <+Luck> loses to fire blast
[15:25] <@DTC> I switch probopass in on zard all the time
[15:25] <@DTC> !
[15:25] <+Luck> or focus blast at worst
[15:25] <+cbb> probopass strong
[15:25] <%Raseri> focus blast doesnt seem that common
[15:25] <+Luck> lol
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> yeah what dtc said
[15:25] <%Raseri> from what ive seen
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> air slash is easy to take, and there a few mons that can handle a fire blast
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> etc. etc. and vice versa
01[15:26] <@NatCounciling> on that note people need to use spDef altaria more :D
[15:26] <+Luck> what
[15:26] <@Steamroll> I never see zards running Fblast any more...
[15:26] <+Luck> fire blast air slash focus blast hp ice
[15:26] <@Steamroll> it's odd
[15:26] <+Luck> I've always used that
[15:26] <+Luck> it's not
[15:26] <@DTC> specs fire blast does this much damage to probo: 43.2 - 51.23%
[15:26] <+Luck> you hit the rock types
[15:26] <+Luck> lol
[15:26] <+Djangoo> what else would you run?
[15:26] <+cbb> gdi stop ninja'ing me dtc
[15:26] <+Luck> iron tail
[15:26] <+Luck> to hit shuckle
[15:26] <@DTC> use honko's calculator cbb
[15:26] <@DTC> it's good at mess calcs
[15:26] <@DTC> http://www.honko2.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html
[15:26] <+cbb> oh that one
[15:26] <@DTC> mass*
[15:26] <@DTC> there is no zard set on site though
[15:26] <@DTC> so you'll have to click like uu charizard and edit the details to fit nu
[15:26] <+cbb> that said
[15:26] <+cbb> whats the typical specs zard anyway
[15:26] <+cbb> fire blast/air slash/focus blast/hp grass??
[15:26] <+Luck> what's hp grass gotr
[15:26] <@DTC> fire blast / air slash / focus blast / hp ice/grass
[15:26] <+Luck> for*
[15:27] <+cbb> because you might as well run hp ice
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> waters
[15:27] <+Luck> hp grass is from DP NU
[15:27] <@DTC> quagsire and whiscahs I guess
[15:27] <+cbb> just to donk altaria
[15:27] <+Luck> because there was gastrodon
[15:27] <@DTC> whiscash*
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> hp ice yeah
[15:27] <+Luck> lol
[15:27] <@DTC> hp ice kills altaria which is really useful
[15:27] <+cbb> whiscash doesn't stand a faint chance to survive 2 air slashes
[15:27] <+Luck> whiscash dies to 2 air slashes I believe
[15:27] <+Keiran> quagsire isn't that common ne more
[15:27] <+Luck> bs ninjas
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> since that's p much its only 100% ccounter otherwise
[15:27] <+Luck> quagsire
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> also jesus christ im lagging
[15:27] <+cbb> and yeah sdef quagsire is really rare
[15:27] <+Luck> can't even switch into fire blast
[15:27] <+cbb> physical dies to air slash too
[15:27] <@DTC> technichally grumpig counters it
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> so i might not respond as fast
[15:27] <@DTC> but lol grumpig
[15:27] <+cbb> grumpig is cool
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> dtc i think you're still 2KOed ?_?
[15:27] <+Luck> grumpig is ok
[15:27] <+cbb> actually not so much with absol
[15:27] <%Raseri> ^^
[15:27] <+Luck> twave/heal bell
[15:27] <@DTC> 29.94 - 35.71%
[15:27] <+Luck> err yeah absol is nu too forgot
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> in or out of sun?
[15:28] <+cbb> strong
[15:28] <@DTC> Grumpig is a good utility check
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> i see
[15:28] <@DTC> outside
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:28] <+Luck> roasting pigs with fire blast all day
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> well
[15:28] <@DTC> but it doesn't do much outside of that with other psychic-types in the tier
[15:28] <@DTC> like mushy
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:28] <+Luck> well
[15:28] <+Luck> it has heal bell
[15:28] <+Luck> though
[15:28] <+Luck> and focus blast
[15:28] <+cbb> it's HUGE absol bait
[15:28] <+cbb> js
[15:28] <@DTC> gardevoir too
[15:28] <+Luck> yeah
[15:28] <+Luck> ik
[15:28] <@DTC> but grumpig is bulkier
11[15:28] * +Djangoo (~chatzilla@synIRC-7AD2947D.range86-149.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Ping timeout)
[15:29] <+Luck> garde is better in everything i think
[15:29] <+Luck> although lacks thick fat
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> except bulk
[15:29] <@Steamroll> best zard check: MANtine
[15:29] <@DTC> thick fat is a useful niche
[15:29] <@Steamroll> :P
[15:29] <+Luck> trace is  cool but useless vs zard
[15:29] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> steamroll more like altriaMAN
[15:29] <+cbb> yeah mantine and mantyke counter zard
[15:29] <+cbb> !
[15:29] <+Keiran> FAGTINE
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> but
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> who uses those?
[15:29] <+Luck> mad at strongtine
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> only common check
[15:29] <+cbb> no one
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> is altaria
[15:29] <@Steamroll> and then zard runs HP electric
[15:29] <@Steamroll> :P
[15:29] <@DTC> ok I think we've discussed zard enough for now
[15:29] <@Steamroll> yeah
[15:29] <@DTC> let's move on
[15:29] <+cbb> ataria is really shaky
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> ok anyways
[15:29] <@Steamroll> on to sawsbuck?
[15:29] <+cbb> ok then
[15:29] <@DTC> actually, one more thing:
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:30] <@DTC> locking yourself into hp ice sucks
[15:30] <@Steamroll> on to sawsbuck?
[15:30] <+Luck> lol
[15:30] <@DTC> and remember something can just set-up on you when you switch
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc
[15:30] <+Luck> locking yourself sucks most of the times
[15:30] <@DTC> ok sorry about that
[15:30] <@DTC> right
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> and 4x sr weak...
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> so SAWSBUC